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Fatal Guillotine
11-15-2010, 01:19 PM
number of folk have made comments that Muhammad (pbuh) was supposedly a pedophile for marrying Ayesha whom Bukhari says was 9 years of age. I would like to post some links to sites which may help redress this besmirching of Muhammad's honour.

http://www.guidedones.com/metapage/frq/Aisha.htm

and

http://www.answeringinfidels.com/content/view/74/84/

Please do read the information on these sites, it is both timely and useful.

3rd3y3
11-15-2010, 01:37 PM
If hadith is gonna be used to clear up the controversy, it is insufficient. Hadith is said to be written well over 250 - 300 years AFTER the Prophet's passing. Hadith is nothing more than heresay which has no proof to back it up. Hadith is not a reliable source of information on Islaam or the Prophet.

The Quran, the sole source of Islaam as we have it, which was written during the life of the Prophet, has no such slander about a child bride and marriage. The Prophet was known by the title The Trustworthy by even his enemies because of his responsible and nature of being trusted.

Btw, a thread addressing this subject has already been written a few weeks ago.

Edgar Erebus
11-15-2010, 04:23 PM
Hadith or not, the consent age changed during history. It was only raised to 18 in the beginning of the last century, when suffrage groups pressured authorities into doing so. As far as I know, in the Middle Ages it was usual everywhere to marry and have sex with 9-year olds.

Every time and place has it's own morals. People seem to forget that.

Dokuro
11-15-2010, 05:04 PM
i thought we already cleared this one

Fatal Guillotine
11-15-2010, 09:03 PM
then how would you defend it since all valid points which seems to refute the allegations seem to come from the hadith

Hellspawn
11-18-2010, 03:21 AM
If hadith is gonna be used to clear up the controversy, it is insufficient. Hadith is said to be written well over 250 - 300 years AFTER the Prophet's passing. Hadith is nothing more than heresay which has no proof to back it up. Hadith is not a reliable source of information on Islaam or the Prophet.

The Quran, the sole source of Islaam as we have it, which was written during the life of the Prophet, has no such slander about a child bride and marriage. The Prophet was known by the title The Trustworthy by even his enemies because of his responsible and nature of being trusted.

Btw, a thread addressing this subject has already been written a few weeks ago.

Who says that Hadith aint a reliable source ?

The recording of the hadeeth of the Prophet (pbuh) began during the time of the Prophet himself.



Al-Baghdaadi records a number of hadeeth that show that the Prophet explicitly allowed the recording of his hadeeth. Here are some examples:


1. Al-Daarimi and Abu Dawood in their Sunans (books) recorded that Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-As stated that they used to record everything they heard from the Prophet. They were warned against doing so as, it was argued, the Prophet was a human being who may be angry at times and pleased at others. Abdullah stopped writing his hadeeth until they could ask the Prophet about this issue. The Messenger of God told him:


“Write [my hadeeth], by the One in whose hand is my soul, nothing comes out [the Prophet’s mouth] except the truth.”


That is, whether he was angry or pleased what he spoke was always the truth.


2. Al-Bukhari, in his Sahih (book), recorded that Abu Hurairah said, “One can find none of the Companions of the Messenger of God relating more hadeeth than I, except Abdullah ibn Amr because he used to record the hadeeth while I did not do so.”


3. Al-Bukhari recorded that a person from Yemen came to the Prophet on the day of the Conquest of Mecca and asked him if he could get the Prophet’s speech recorded, and the Prophet approved and told someone:


“Write it for the father of so and so.”


4. Anas narrated the statement, “Secure knowledge by writing it.” This hadeeth has been related by a number of authorities but mostly with weak chains. There is a dispute concerning whether or not it is actually a statement of the Prophet or of some Companion. However, according to al-Albani, the hadeeth, as recorded by al-Haakim and others, is authentic.

--->There is no question, therefore, that the recording of hadeeth began during the lifetime of the Messenger of God himself. This practice of writing hadeeth continued after the death of the Messenger of God. Al-Azami, in his work Studies in Early Hadeeth Literature, has listed and discussed some fifty Companions of the Prophet who had recorded hadeeth. Note the following:


Abdullah B. Abbas (3 B.H.-68 A.H.)… He was so eager for knowledge that he would ask as many as 30 Companions about a single incident… It seems he wrote what he heard and sometimes even employed his slaves for this purpose… The following derived hadeeth from him in written form: Ali b. Abdullah ibn Abbas, Amr b. Dinar, Al-Hakam b. Miqsam, Ibn Abu Mulaikah, Ikrimah… Kuraib, Mujahid, Najdah… Said b. Jubair.


Abdullah B. Umar B. al-Khattab (10 B.H.-74 A.H.). He transmitted a large number of ahadeeth, and was so strict in relating them that he did not allow the order of a word to be changed even though it would not have altered the meaning… He had books. One Kitab [book] which belonged to Umar, and was in his possession, was read to him by Nafi several times… The following derived hadeeth from him in written form: Jamil b. Zaid al-Tai… Nafi client of ibn Umar, Said b. Jubair, Abd al-Aziz b. Marwan, Abd al-Malik b. Marwan, Ubaidullah b. Umar, Umar b. Ubaidullah …

Al-Azami also compiled a list, discussing each personality individually, of forty-nine people of “the first century successors” who recorded hadeeth. Al-Azami goes on to list eighty-seven of “the scholars covering the late first and early second centuries” who recorded hadeeth. Then he lists “from the early second century scholars” 251 people who collected and recorded hadeeth. Thus al-Azami has produced a list of 437 scholars who had recorded hadeeth and all of them lived and died before the year 250 A. H. Many of them are from before the time of Umar ibn Abdul Azeez, who has been wrongly credited with having been the first person to ask for the collection of hadeeth. The story of Umar ibn Abdul Azeez has actually been misunderstood and it does not mean that no one collected hadeeth before him.


To quote al-Azami, “Recent research has proved that almost all of the hadeeth of the Prophet was [sic] written down in the life of the companions, which stretched to the end of the first century.” This last statement is partially based on al-Azami’s own research in which he has mentioned many Companions and Followers who possessed written hadeeth. Elsewhere, he himself writes,
I have established in my doctoral thesis Studies in Early Hadeeth Literature that even in the first century of the Hijra many hundreds of booklets of hadeeth were in circulation. If we add another hundred years, it would be difficult to enumerate the quantity of booklets and books which were in circulation. Even by the most conservative estimate they were many thousands.

3rd3y3
11-18-2010, 10:45 AM
Did you just use a hadith to justify the use of hadith?

Isn't that like Christians saying' the bible is true because the bible tells me so'?


Why does it say to do wudu one way in the Quran, but says to do it in a different way in hadith?

Why are apostates to be left alone according to the Quran, but hadith says to kill them?

Why does it (the Quran) say to flog adulterers, but hadith says to kill them?

Saudi Arabian government follows hadith, right? Are they true Muslims - why or why not?

Hellspawn
11-18-2010, 02:31 PM
Did you just use a hadith to justify the use of hadith?

Isn't that like Christians saying' the bible is true because the bible tells me so'?

I already explained this in another thread (Al Khidhr)


Why does it say to do wudu one way in the Quran, but says to do it in a different way in hadith?

The wudu as described in the Quran is also valuable, but if you want to follow Muhammad pbuh and get the reward for doin the wudu and following the sunna you make it as described by the companions of the prophet who saw him doin it.

The prophet and his sunna are there to complete the quran, for example the book dont describe the way of doin salaat thus it is obligatory for every muslim, it only says that we have to prosternate but dont explain what we do and what we say but it still the most principal way of worship who determine a muslim from a non muslim.

And keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and bow down with those who bow down. 2:44

And keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and whatever good you send before for yourselves, you shall find it with Allah; surely Allah sees what you do. 2:111

Attend constantly to prayers and to the middle prayer and stand up truly obedient to Allah. 2:239

Surely they who believe and do good deeds and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate they shall have their reward from their Lord, and they shall have no fear, nor shall they grieve. 2:278

Then when you have finished the prayer, remember Allah standing and sitting and reclining; but when you are secure (from danger) keep up prayer; surely prayer is a timed ordinance for the believers. 4:104

etc etc etc... (theres alot more...)

Why are apostates to be left alone according to the Quran, but hadith says to kill them?

Depends of the time period, in time of war or in time of peace, the apostates from Qureich and the people of the book, those who keep you from practicing your religion and the passive ones. In your homeland, outside your countries. This is not a general statement.

Why does it (the Quran) say to flog adulterers, but hadith says to kill them?

The flog is for the not married and the slaughter for the married. as you surely know the Quran came gradually and some penalties changed during his inspiration for example the alcohol was permitted in the beginning then prohibited during (or before) the prayer then totally prohibited, you can't ask people who get drunk all their life time to stop it in one time, the same goes for sex outside the marriage, they used to do it at will and then came the prohibition.

Saudi Arabian government follows hadith, right? Are they true Muslims - why or why not?

The government aint the people nor represent it. They follow hadith but their reign aint legitimate for alot of muslims.



I don't understand how you can read the Quran and bring statements from it (so I assume you believe it) then doubt the messenger, the one who brought it to us and faithfully transmit it. The one who have been chosen amongst all man kind to hold the responsability to deliver it. This is non sense for me :)

Fatal Guillotine
11-18-2010, 03:29 PM
ayo hellspawn nice imma print this out later

zooruka
11-18-2010, 04:44 PM
It does not matter who muhummad married. He is still a false prophet and nothing will ever change that fact.


Praise be to God Always !!!!!!!!!!



peace

3rd3y3
11-18-2010, 08:16 PM
The wudu as described in the Quran is also valuable,...


So you treat hadith as your primary source and the Quran is secondary, eh?



The prophet and his sunna are there to complete the quran,..


“'Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you the Book fully detailed?'” Those to whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt." (Qur'an 6:114 )





Depends of the time period,...

Could you show me where it says that in the Quran, please?


The flog is for the not married and the slaughter for the married....


Could you back that up with verses from the Quran, please?



The government aint the people nor represent it. They follow hadith but their reign aint legitimate for alot of muslims.

How could you say that? They follow the hadith of killing adulterers and apostates. If the people believe and practice hadith and so does the government, the government must represent them.

Hellspawn
11-19-2010, 04:24 AM
So you treat hadith as your primary source and the Quran is secondary, eh?

Don't make me say what I didn't. Quran is the principle source and the sunna is there to give the details like I already explained for the salaat (prayer).


“'Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you the Book fully detailed?'” Those to whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt." (Qur'an 6:114 )

This surat is dedicated to those who don't believe in God. Regarding the prophet he is indeed a teacher.

Our Lord! and raise up in them an Apostle from among them who shall recite to them Thy communications and teach them the Book and the wisdom, and purify them; surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise. (Quran 2:130)

Even as We have sent among you an Apostle from among you who recites to you Our communications and purifies you and teaches you the Book and the wisdom and teaches you that which you did not know. (Quran 2:152)

Certainly Allah conferred a benefit upon the believers when He raised among them an Apostle from among themselves, reciting to them His communications and purifying them, and teaching them the Book and the wisdom, although before that they were surely in manifest error. (Quran 3:165)

And We did not send any apostle but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Apostle had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful. (Quran 3:65)

Whoever obeys the Apostle, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them. (Quran 4:81)

What is the wisdom according to you ?

Could you show me where it says that in the Quran, please?

So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (Quran 9:5)

This verse start with "when the sacred months have passed away", so obviously it is not a general statement like after each sacred month go kill the idolaters. This is limited to the period of time of that year in particular, the year when the muslims went to the Hajj for the first time with the prophet and when the idolaters of Qureish broke the treaty of peace.

You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.
You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers. (Quran 2:190-191)


(note that you claimed that the Quran don't say to kill them while it does, but in a precise circumstace)

This is also a limitation ; if they attack you kill them and again around the sacred mosque so it is again about the idolaters of Qureish and in the case of agression in the lifetime of the prophet.

On the other hand.

Whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men. (Quran 5:33)

It is said here a soul, there's nothing more general than that. Whether it is a believer or a disbeliever. And this is a general statement.

Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Bible and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement. (Quran 5:111)

It is applyed to the muslims, the christians and the jews who follows the way of God.

Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. (Quran 2:63)


Could you back that up with verses from the Quran, please?

Like I previously said the Quran gives the main principles and the Sunna gives the details. In this case the prophet have said that the flog is for the not married and the stonedeath for the married. I can give you Hadeeths but you don't seem to take them as valuables (anyway : The Prophet said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but God and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims.").

EDIT : anyway these punishments are more persuasive than practical and examples of people who have been stoned in the time of the prophet are very rare (I only know two of them). It happends only when the guilty person comes and denounces himself and insists to be punished because it is hard to have the four witnesses and because people were so religious and overwhelmed by the faith that they don't dare break the rules.

the two I know :
1-Sulaiman b. Buraida reported on the authority of his father that Ma,iz b. Malik came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said to him : Messenger of Allah, purify me, whereupon he said: Woe be upon you, go back, ask forgiveness of Allah and turn to Him in repentance. He (the narrator) said that he went back not far, then came and said: Allah's Messenger, purify me. whereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said : Woe be upon you, go back and ask forgiveness of Allah and turn to Him in repentance. He (the narrator) said that he went back not far, when he came and said: Allah's Messenger, purify me. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said as he had said before. When it was the fourth time, Allah's Messenger (may, peace be upon him) said : From what am I to purify you ? He said : From adultery, Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) asked if he had been mad. He was informed that he was not mad. He said: Has he drunk wine ? A person stood up and smelt his breath but noticed no smell of wine. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Have you committed adultery ? He said : Yes. He made pronouncement about him and he was stoned to death.

2- There came to him (the Holy Prophet) a woman from Ghamid and said : Allah's Messenger, I have committed adultery, so purify me. He (the Holy Prophet) turned her away. On the following day she said : Allah's Messenger, Why do you turn me away ? I have become pregnant. He said: Well, if you insist upon it, then go away until you give birth to (the child). When she was delivered she came with the child (wrapped) in a rag and said : Here is the child whom I have given birth to. He said : Go away and suckle him until you wean him. When she had weaned him, she came to him (the Holy Prophet) with the child who was holding a piece of bread in his hand. She said : Allah's Apostle, here is he as I have weaned him and he eats food. He (the Holy Prophet) entrusted the child to one of the Muslims and then pronounced punishment.


How could you say that? They follow the hadith of killing adulterers and apostates. If the people believe and practice hadith and so does the government, the government must represent them.

1-the government of Saudi Arabia is a complicated case, they sold themselves to GB and abolish the islamic Khalifat in the beginning of last century. They lost all legitimacy.

2-Saudi Arabia government practices the islamic punishment in public for the show. Alot of people evade it by payin money or so. The government of Saudi Arabia isnt the perfect example of a muslim country like most people in occident think.

3-The people have not the right to practices the punishment, only the ruler can. So today nobody can in the absence of a legitimate islamic ruler (a one who reigns over all muslims).

3rd3y3
11-19-2010, 08:13 PM
This surat is dedicated to those who don't believe in God. Regarding the prophet he is indeed a teacher.).

^^Missed the point. You've said hadith is made to 'complete' Quran, and I posted a quote that says the Quran is a 'book that's fully detailed'. If it is fully detailed, it does not need an additional book to complete it!!!!

The statement you've written above has nothing to do with that subject.




So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (Quran 9:5)

This verse start with "when the sacred months have passed away", so obviously it is not a general statement like after each sacred month go kill the idolaters. This is limited to the period of time of that year in particular, the year when the muslims went to the Hajj for the first time with the prophet and when the idolaters of Qureish broke the treaty of peace.

That quote has nothing to do with apostates. Again you post verses unrelated to the topic being discussed.







Like I previously said the Quran gives the main principles and the Sunna gives the details. In this case the prophet have said that the flog is for the not married and the stonedeath for the married..

So you believe the Quran is not a fully detailed book?



The government of Saudi Arabia isnt the perfect example of a muslim country like most people in occident think...

Why not? - they practce hadith.


3-The people have not the right to practices the punishment, only the ruler can. So today nobody can in the absence of a legitimate islamic ruler (a one who reigns over all muslims).

Why are they not legitimate? Don't they uphold hadith and enforce it? So explain how they are not legitimate!

Are they not true muslims?

Hellspawn
11-20-2010, 03:59 AM
^^Missed the point. You've said hadith is made to 'complete' Quran, and I posted a quote that says the Quran is a 'book that's fully detailed'. If it is fully detailed, it does not need an additional book to complete it!!!!

The statement you've written above has nothing to do with that subject.

It does need and I already told you why (details of the salaat, of the hajj, the amount of the zakaat, etc...). On the other hand, not all the details of every day life have been written in the Quran

But the most funny part is that you are already considering and following the Sunna of the prophet without knowing it because the translation of the Quran that you are reading have been translated according to the hadeeths of the prophet and his explanations. A simple example :

Surat 113 "Al Falaq"

Say, "I seek refuge in the Lord of daybreak. (the world Falaq in arabic means "break" or "explosion" or "appearance from nothingness", it has been explained by Muhammad pbuh that it means "daybreak" or "the dawn". Otherwise it would have no sense for the normal human beign who read it)
"From the evils among His creations.
"From the evils of darkness as it falls. (also "darkness as it falls" in arabic was "Ghasiq idha waqab" and nothing to do with "darkness" wich is "Dhalam" or "Leil (night)" and Waqab is a word that did not existed before the Quran. A hadeeth of the prophet also explained that Ghasiq is the "Moon" and "Waqab" means appear. So the meaning here is the time of the "sunset" in opposition to the "sunrise" of the first verse)
"From the evils of the troublemakers. (troublemakers is a translation of "naffathet fil ouqad" wich are "the blowers in the knots" wich are according to the prophets "the witches")
"From the evils of the envious when they envy."


Examples are several.

That quote has nothing to do with apostates. Again you post verses unrelated to the topic being discussed.

Show me where it says in the Quran that the apostates must be left alone.

Let me explain that apostasy thing ; apostasy is "a total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc." dictionnary.com.

So it is the same as high treason nowerdays and untill very lately it was punished by death penalty by most occidental countries. People used to pretend entering Islam to spy on the muslims and then turn their back to them and make plans to fight them. Where's the difference ?


So you believe the Quran is not a fully detailed book?

Already answered, ones must be very arrogant to pretend to fully understand it without explanations. And what you reading is not the quran, it's the translation of the Quran according to the Prophet Muhammad.


Why not? - they practce hadith.

Why are they not legitimate? Don't they uphold hadith and enforce it? So explain how they are not legitimate!

The Saudi princes are corrupted they have signed the treaty with GB in 1927 and sold the Khilafat to the English ; listen at 48:00 (http://www.pureislam.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=936&Itemid=46)

Are they not true muslims?

(We speak about the rulers right now) they betrayed Islam and usurped the sovereignty. It's not up to me to say if they are muslims or not this is up to their Creator.

3rd3y3
11-20-2010, 05:34 PM
It does need and I already told you why (details of the salaat, of the hajj, the amount of the zakaat, etc...). On the other hand, not all the details of every day life have been written in the Quran

All the details you need are in Quran.

But the most funny part is that you are already considering and following the Sunna of the prophet without knowing it because the translation of the Quran that you are reading have been translated according to the hadeeths of the prophet and his explanations. A simple example...

Can you prove definitively when certain words in the Quran were invented?

Can you give me the exact date and location of when it happened (month/day/year)?

Do you know for a fact (and can you prove it) that certain words used in the Quran were not used by Arabs preceding the revelation?


Show me where it says in the Quran that the apostates must be left alone.


002.256: Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.


015.002
Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to Allah's will) in Islam.

15.003 Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them).

018.029Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!

109.001 - 006
Say : O ye that reject Faith!
I worship not that which ye worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
To you be your Way, and to me mine.





Now tell me, do you believe in the above verses or do you believe that they should still be killed?

Which book do you believe in?


Let me explain that apostasy thing ; apostasy is "a total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc." dictionnary.com.

^^game of semantics. I'm using what the Quran says.

So it is the same as high treason nowerdays and untill very lately it was punished by death penalty by most occidental countries. People used to pretend entering Islam to spy on the muslims and then turn their back to them and make plans to fight them. Where's the difference ?

The difference is that most apostates do not spy on muslims and then turn their backs and make plans to fight them. If they did that, they would be doing more than commiting apostasy. They would be participating in a war and the punishment for that would be based on the fact people were killed as a result, NOT because they are apostates.



Already answered, ones must be very arrogant to pretend to fully understand it without explanations. And what you reading is not the quran, it's the translation of the Quran according to the Prophet Muhammad.

Actually, since the Quran is a fully detailed book, the explanations are in it not outside of it. Any answer to any question regarding Islaam could be found IN THE QURAN.


The Saudi princes are corrupted they have signed the treaty with GB in 1927 and sold the Khilafat to the English ; listen at 48:00 (http://www.pureislam.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=936&Itemid=46 (http://www.pureislam.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=936&Itemid=46))

What makes that so corrupt? What are the results of that?


(We speak about the rulers right now) they betrayed Islam and usurped the sovereignty. It's not up to me to say if they are muslims or not this is up to their Creator.

By betraying Islaam, does that make them enemies, and 'rejecters' and should they be stoned to death? Did they commit treason?

Hellspawn
11-22-2010, 05:21 AM
All the details you need are in Quran.

Can you prove definitively when certain words in the Quran were invented?

Can you give me the exact date and location of when it happened (month/day/year)?

Do you know for a fact (and can you prove it) that certain words used in the Quran were not used by Arabs preceding the revelation?

I can't post arabic explanations so let's stick to the same surat :

Verse:001
Abdul Daryabadi : Say thou :I seek refuge with the Lord of the daybreak,
Dr. Mohsin : Say: "I seek refuge with (Allâh) the Lord of the daybreak,
Pickthal : Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of the Daybreak
Yusuf Ali : Say: I seek refuge with the Lord of the Dawn,


Verse:002
Abdul Daryabadi : from the evil of what He has created,
Dr. Mohsin : "From the evil of what He has created;
Pickthal : From the evil of that which He created;
Yusuf Ali : From the mischief of created things;


Verse:003
Abdul Daryabadi : and from the mischief of the darkening when it comes,
Dr. Mohsin : "And from the evil of the darkening (night) as it comes with its darkness; (or the moon as it sets or goes away)
Pickthal : From the evil of the darkness when it is intense,
Yusuf Ali : From the mischief of Darkness as it overspreads;


Verse:004
Abdul Daryabadi : and from the mischief of the women blowers upon the knots,
Dr. Mohsin : "And from the evil of those who practise witchcrafts when they blow in the knots,
Pickthal : And from the evil of malignant witchcraft,
Yusuf Ali : From the mischief of those who practise Secret Arts;


Verse:005
Abdul Daryabadi : and from the mischief of the envier when he envies.
Dr. Mohsin : "And from the evil of the envier when he envies."
Pickthal : And from the evil of the envier when he envieth.
Yusuf Ali : And from the mischief of the envious one as he practises envy.

Why do you think that there's not a single translation agreed on when in arabic there's only one version ?

قُلْ أَعُوذُ بِرَبِّ الْفَلَقِ (١) مِنْ شَرِّ مَا خَلَقَ (٢) وَمِنْ شَرِّ غَاسِقٍ إِذَا وَقَبَ (٣) وَمِنْ شَرِّ النَّفَّاثَاتِ فِي الْعُقَدِ (٤) وَمِنْ شَرِّ حَاسِدٍ إِذَا حَسَدَ (٥)

another example :

Verse:001
Abdul Daryabadi : Verily We have bestowed on thee Kawthar. (how do they know it is a river in paradise?)
Dr. Mohsin : Verily, We have granted you (O Muhammad (SAW)) Al-Kauthar (a river in Paradise);[]
Pickthal : Lo! We have given thee Abundance;
Yusuf Ali : To thee have We granted the Fount (Of Abundance).


Verse:002
Abdul Daryabadi : So pray thou to thy Lord and sacrifice.
Dr. Mohsin : Therefore turn in prayer to your Lord and sacrifice (to Him only)
Pickthal : So pray unto thy Lord, and sacrifice.
Yusuf Ali : Therefore to thy Lord turn in Prayer and Sacrifice.


Verse:003
Abdul Daryabadi : Truly it is thy traducer who shall be childless.
Dr. Mohsin : For he who hates you (O Muhammad (Peace be upon him)), he will be cut off (from every posterity good thing in this world and in the Hereafter).[]
Pickthal : Lo! it is thy insulter (and not thou) who is without posterity.
Yusuf Ali : For he who hateth thee He will be cut off (from Future Hope).

Also, there's a hundred of verses or more that talk about the salaat (prayer) how do you perform it if you don't follow the sunna of Muhammad ? please answer this one I already asked you twice, maybe you know something I don't know... keep in mind that the prayer is indeed a ritual to perform and not a simple ask to god because as you said it theres wudu and also in the quran god speaks about waking up at night to perform salaat (muzzammil) and other details that make sure that prayer is a set of acts that each muslim must know and do together in mosques to worship the Most High, so tell me please how you do it without takin the prophet actions as reference.

Attend constantly to prayers and to the middle prayer and stand up truly obedient to Allah. (Quran 2:239)

So what are the middle prayers ? middle compared to what ? how many prayers a day ? we know all this from the prophet Muhammad.

Also how do you explain : the prophet Muhammad said :
"If a fly falls in the vessel of any of you, let him dip all of it (into the vessel) and then throw it away, for in one of its wings there is a disease and in the other there is healing (antidote for it) i e. the treatment for that disease."

An article in Vol. 43 of the Rockefeller Foundation's Journal of Experimental Medicine (1927) p. 1037 stated: "The flies were given some of the cultured microbes for certain diseases. After some time the germs died and no trace was left of them while a germ-devouring substance formed in the flies - bacteriophages. If a saline solution were to be obtained from these flies it would contain bacteriophages able to suppress four kinds of disease-inducing germs and to benefit immunity"

How would some illeterate person from Saudi Arabia 1400 years ago knew about that ?

002.256: Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.


015.002
Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to Allah's will) in Islam.

15.003 Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them).

018.029Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!

109.001 - 006
Say : O ye that reject Faith!
I worship not that which ye worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
To you be your Way, and to me mine.

the word "apostate" aint mentionned once in the verses you typed (nor murtadd in arabic). If you believe these are god words it must be really precise especially when the punishment is so serious.

let there be no compulsion in religion : those who wants to believe are free to believe and those who don't are free too. This is clearely aimed at the unbelievers.

leave them alone : again for those who didbelieve.

let him who will believe and let him who will reject : it is also for the unbelievers not for those who believe then reject.

to you be your way and to me mine (faith rejecter) : for the faith rejecters

To speak about apostasy we are looking for something like that :
Surely (as for) those who return on their backs after that guidance has become manifest to them, the Shaitan has made it a light matter to them; and He gives them respite.

Now tell me, do you believe in the above verses or do you believe that they should still be killed?

Which book do you believe in?

It is not about what I believe or who's right and who's wrong. I just wanted to explain that God insists that we must follow His book and the wisdom brought by His prophet. In this case, the book is silent about the apostates and their punishment while the prophet said that they must be killed. And like I previously explained ones must replace all this in its context ; the islamic state was in formation, they had alot of ennemies amongst the arabs and some of them pretend to embrace Islam to spy on the muslims.

Apostasy is not disbelieving, apostasy is to pretend becoming muslim then leave islam. So when ones become a muslim that means he saw the truth in it, so how can he later choose the lie ? ; it only means they never saw the truth, they always been in the lie but acted like that for a certain reason, what is this reason ? it's a political thing my brother. Thye verses you typed are applied to the straight disbelievers, they were indeed left alone.

Moreover, apostates were given three days to repent and only the ruler of the muslim state can decide for their fate (not like what you see nowerdays, civilians judge and punish, of course they are in the wrong, you know and I know that Islam is a religion of peace).


^^game of semantics. I'm using what the Quran says.

Again, the Quran is silent about the penalty of apostasy. We only know their status :
whoever of you turns back from his religion, then he dies while an unbeliever (Quran 2:218)

Wich is very logical.


The difference is that most apostates do not spy on muslims and then turn their backs and make plans to fight them. If they did that, they would be doing more than commiting apostasy. They would be participating in a war and the punishment for that would be based on the fact people were killed as a result, NOT because they are apostates.

It is to prevent that killing and to secure the community, this last one is the most important thing in Islam and the taking lives punishments are applied only in case of crimes against the community.

“A group from the People of the Scripture said: ‘Believe in what is revealed to those who believe at the beginning of the day, then disbelieve at the end of the day, so perhaps they might return from faith.” (Quran 3:72)

This is where killing is unavoidable, when people enter islam together and leave it together to put the doubt in the hearts of the muslims.

Note that I always talk about the time of the prophet because there where true Islam resides, nowerdays people make alot of things and take decisions according to islam but only god knows if it's right or wrong and I'm not a scholar nor a decision taker to say what they/we should do in this or that case.

Actually, since the Quran is a fully detailed book, the explanations are in it not outside of it. Any answer to any question regarding Islaam could be found IN THE QURAN.

A fully detailed book for those who know and there are few and the most lightened of them is the prophet himself :

Surely We have sent you as a witness and as a bearer of good news and as a warner, That you may believe in Allah and His Apostle and may aid him and revere him; and (that) you may declare His glory, morning and evening. (Quran 48:9-10)

People worshipped God according to the prophet's teachings wich hopefully we still have until today when it comes to how to do a prayer, how many prayer, when, how perform washing, what nullify wudu, hajj, how much is the zakaat (poor-rate) etc... (wich are all practices mentionned in the Quran but not detailed).

What makes that so corrupt? What are the results of that?

You talk like they represent true islam but they don't, they just rule illegally on the Holy Land. The don't rule over all muslims only over the saudis. They did not have been elected according to the Shura (counsel) And those who respond to their Lord and keep up prayer, and their rule is to take counsel among themselves, and who spend out of what We have given them.

They have no holy or superior legetimacy like you seem to think it, they are exactely the same as any arabic ruler.

The result ; what they decide/edicts/fatwas are not necessarely "more" islamic than others'.

By betraying Islaam, does that make them enemies, and 'rejecters' and should they be stoned to death? Did they commit treason?

Go judge them and try to punish them :)

knewcheeze
11-22-2010, 03:01 PM
Muhammad said to BURN HADITH

dayum....Allah made it so simple for you
and you bums still can't obey

BURN HADITH

yes....anyone who trys to mix
Hadith and Quran is
blasphem-ing Allah

PEACE

Fatal Guillotine
11-22-2010, 04:34 PM
Muhammad said to BURN HADITH

dayum....Allah made it so simple for you
and you bums still can't obey

BURN HADITH

yes....anyone who trys to mix
Hadith and Quran is
blasphem-ing Allah

PEACE

where are you getting this info from?

3rd3y3
11-22-2010, 10:20 PM
First of all, I've written alot, then my finger touched the back button and I've lost it. As a result, I will not address everything you've wrote, Hellspawn, but will address somethings that stuck out for me.

Salat:

time
- (1) two ends of day - decline of sun, til darkness (11:114)
- (2) and dawn (17:78)

position
- standing obediently (2:238)

recite
- seek protection of God against Shaitan (sixteen: ninety-eight)
- recite what is easy of it (73:20), (29:45)



As for the hadith:

The hadith mentions:

- a cure and disease on the wing of the fly



The rockefeller study mentions:

- a microbe applied to the fly, the fly developes germ-devouring substances, and the extract from the fly supresses certain diseases.



Do you see the difference?

The hadith and rockefeller study are not exactly the same!!!


Also, I think you are confusing hypocrites with apostates.
The hypocrites are the ones who play both sides to gain advantages.

Apostates are rejectors period. It does not matter if they believed, then rejected or if they rejected in the beginning til the end. They are all rejectors.

That is all for tonight cuz, like I said, I wrote alot already and it got lost.

Hellspawn
11-23-2010, 01:52 AM
First of all, I've written alot, then my finger touched the back button and I've lost it. As a result, I will not address everything you've wrote, Hellspawn, but will address somethings that stuck out for me.

Salat:

time
- (1) two ends of day - decline of sun, til darkness (11:114)
- (2) and dawn (17:78)

position
- standing obediently (2:238)

recite
- seek protection of God against Shaitan (sixteen: ninety-eight)
- recite what is easy of it (73:20), (29:45)



As for the hadith:

The hadith mentions:

- a cure and disease on the wing of the fly



The rockefeller study mentions:

- a microbe applied to the fly, the fly developes germ-devouring substances, and the extract from the fly supresses certain diseases.



Do you see the difference?

The hadith and rockefeller study are not exactly the same!!!


Also, I think you are confusing hypocrites with apostates.
The hypocrites are the ones who play both sides to gain advantages.

Apostates are rejectors period. It does not matter if they believed, then rejected or if they rejected in the beginning til the end. They are all rejectors.

That is all for tonight cuz, like I said, I wrote alot already and it got lost.
*disappointed*

Fatal Guillotine
11-23-2010, 11:06 AM
KEwmfIgSQQU&feature=player_embedded
v4yyx1qDWhQ&feature=player_embedded

3rd3y3
11-23-2010, 11:34 AM
*disappointed*

Very short response.

You wanna say why you're disappointed?

Hellspawn
11-24-2010, 03:32 AM
Very short response.

You wanna say why you're disappointed?

You skipped most of the points we were discussing :) it started to be a nice build but unfortunately your computer screwed it all lol

Anyway,

Salat :

You forgot the middle prayers.

Hadeeth :

Make a short research and you'll find more than that about the fly even it was just an example I gave to show that the prophet recieve revelation from god under another form (Quran + hadeeth/wisdom).


Rejecters = unbelievers (Maqadhibun or mushrikun) those who never believe and reject every thing about Islam.

Hypocrites = munafiqun, those who pretend to be muslims but are not convinced (like Ibn Abi Saloul who is the head of the munafiqun) they keep living amongst the muslims. Those are not to kill because you can't shed the blood of someone who says "theres no god but god and muhammad is his messenger".

Apostates = mortaddun, those who entered islam then publicly reject it and get out of the community. They abandon their prayers, their zakaat etc...

The first two has been mentionned by name in the Quran when it comes to punishment but not the third type.



Like always on the Corp, everybody's entiteled to its position but it makes no harm to build. I think I made my point for alot of things that are undeniables if you believe in the Quran like you said so just think about it again.

I only want to clear three points in the case we dont keep on building :

1-Most arabic scholars who specialized in language and grammar don't fully understand the exact meaning of alot of words/verses, they explain them according to the circumstances, the saying of the prophet and the companions who witnesses the revelation. It's true tha the Quran is a fully detailed book and who understand it better than the prophet himself who has been untrusted by the Most High to deliver it. You can see by yourself, the words differ from a translation to another when in arabic it's a one and unique copy. Also our discussion is the perfect example of that, we both brought verses that support our claims, we aint agreeing even if we read the same book and in alot of points each one of us can be right or wrong.
There's alot of discussions also amongst the scholars about some points we built on like the head-scarf, the stoning, the alcohol and they don't agree neither.

"The sayings of Muhammad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad) are a treasure of wisdom, not only for Muslims but for all of mankind." Ghandi.

2-Saudi Arabi -at least the government- have alot of interests with the west so they are not totally objective when it comes to religion. There's alot of money in play and money corrupts. They put their own scholars in prison if they talk about what they don't like (khalifat, jihad, women rights ...)

The true muslim is your muslim neighbour that applies the commandments of Islam and try his hard to be nice with every one and that you hardly notice most of the time.

3-Shiia are far to be muslims, they had a whole different believe and an interpretation of the quran that is totally in contradiction with islam precepts. They essentially believe that Jibreel/Gabriel went to the wrong prophet in the person of Muhammad and that he should have revealed the quran to his cousin Ali Ibn abi Taleb. And starting from here they add verses in the Quran where it talks about Ali and make pilgrimage to visit his grave and his sons (where they whip themselves) and grand sons' graves etc...

Most of them believe that Al Mahdi is in a cave in the mountain and that he will hide there for a thousand year untill his revelation to the world, they edit books in his name ; some so called priests go and visit the cave and come back with sayings from him that they put on paper and act according to them. So like you said in another thread they permit sexual intercourse for pleasure, homosexuality and even pedophilia amongst alot of stupid rules. They think their Imams (religious leaders) are exempt from doin wrong and that they recieve revelations from God too. The most hardcore of them call to the killing of sunni muslims wich they are doing in Iraq.


PS : can you also get a look at your other thread about Islam and its practice today (http://www.wutang-corp.com/forum/showthread.php?t=102254) ?

3rd3y3
11-24-2010, 11:21 AM
The 'middle' prayers...well, I don't see how there could be a middle prayer. Middle from what? Between sunset and dawn which would be a night time prayer, or between dawn and sunset which would be a noon-time prayer?

That verse in the Quran is the only verse, according to my research, that uses the word translated as 'middle'. It could possibly be a mistranslated word because, since the Quran is complete, and there are no other verses to support that the word could mean 'middle', I come to the conclusion that something is off with the translation.

Well, it seemed that the error I've made was a derailment in the discussion and from the tone of your post above, it seems this discussion is over...for now.

I just wanna leave with you these links:

Islaam: http://free-minds.org/

Word-by-Word Quran: http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=1&verse=1

Hellspawn
11-25-2010, 02:42 AM
The 'middle' prayers...well, I don't see how there could be a middle prayer. Middle from what? Between sunset and dawn which would be a night time prayer, or between dawn and sunset which would be a noon-time prayer?

That verse in the Quran is the only verse, according to my research, that uses the word translated as 'middle'. It could possibly be a mistranslated word because, since the Quran is complete, and there are no other verses to support that the word could mean 'middle', I come to the conclusion that something is off with the translation.

From your link :
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=237

or

Attend constantly to prayers and to the middle prayer and stand up truly obedient to Allah. (Quran 2:238)

The middle prayers are Al Dhohr (midday 12:00-13:00) and Al Asr (beginning of the afternoon 15:00-16:00).

Well, it seemed that the error I've made was a derailment in the discussion and from the tone of your post above, it seems this discussion is over...for now.

Not necessarely but I feel like wasting my time writing full pages and getting one word answers, I think we could have discussed all the points.

I just wanna leave with you these links:

Islaam: http://free-minds.org/

Word-by-Word Quran: http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=1&verse=1

Thanks I'll add them to my references.

Peace

3rd3y3
11-25-2010, 12:17 PM
In 2:238, the word in question is 'wus'ta'.

In an arabic root-word list, this is what I've found:


و س ط
Waw-Siin-Tay (http://www.openburhan.com/data/b.x.1214.htm%20) = middle, midst, among, best, best part of a thing, mediate/intercede between, most remote from the extremes, equidistant, intermediate, most conforming/equitable/just/balanced, most excellent of them in particular, occupy the middle position.


As you can see, the word could have many possible meanings. The meanings could be shaped according to how it fits in with other Islaamic concepts and practices (context). So it is up to you to find what it most logically means.

You've written that 'middle' means dhuhr and asr, but a middle is supposed to be singular, if that is your interpretation of the word; I've never came across the word middle meaning two.

I just felt like when you were writting/quoting verses it was overkill to prove a point.

Let's try again. Is there anything else you wanted my view on?

3rd3y3
11-25-2010, 12:20 PM
Project Root List:

http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

Hellspawn
11-25-2010, 04:00 PM
In 2:238, the word in question is 'wus'ta'.

In an arabic root-word list, this is what I've found:


و س ط
Waw-Siin-Tay (http://www.openburhan.com/data/b.x.1214.htm%20) = middle, midst, among, best, best part of a thing, mediate/intercede between, most remote from the extremes, equidistant, intermediate, most conforming/equitable/just/balanced, most excellent of them in particular, occupy the middle position.


As you can see, the word could have many possible meanings. The meanings could be shaped according to how it fits in with other Islaamic concepts and practices (context). So it is up to you to find what it most logically means.

You've written that 'middle' means dhuhr and asr, but a middle is supposed to be singular, if that is your interpretation of the word; I've never came across the word middle meaning two.

I just felt like when you were writting/quoting verses it was overkill to prove a point.

Let's try again. Is there anything else you wanted my view on?

the most common significance and most logically means is "between two things" so let's not play on words, it's overkilled when you want to understand it as "most conforming" for example.

i meant "middle prayer" stands for dhuhr and asr

3rd3y3
11-25-2010, 08:39 PM
the most common significance and most logically means is "between two things" so let's not play on words, it's overkilled when you want to understand it as "most conforming" for example.

i meant "middle prayer" stands for dhuhr and asr

Please reread what I have written because your quote above reflects a misunderstanding.

Hellspawn
11-26-2010, 02:45 AM
Please reread what I have written because your quote above reflects a misunderstanding.

I understood that "middle" could possibly mean other than "in between" wich is the most common definition.

So according to you (from what I understood) middle prayer could not be between two prayers but something else that I don't catch yet :) (you probably have to tell me).

3rd3y3
11-26-2010, 01:51 PM
I understood that "middle" could possibly mean other than "in between" wich is the most common definition.

Then it's difference of word interpretation.

I simply take that word to mean 'most excellent of them in particular', in other words, to pay attention to the recital during salat and not mindlessly mumble it.

Hellspawn
11-26-2010, 02:38 PM
Then it's difference of word interpretation.

I simply take that word to mean 'most excellent of them in particular', in other words, to pay attention to the recital during salat and not mindlessly mumble it.

theres 90% chance for the word to mean middle and you are wanting to understand it differently.

ps: what is your username in the free-minds forum?

3rd3y3
11-26-2010, 03:18 PM
theres 90% chance for the word to mean middle and you are wanting to understand it differently.

ps: what is your username in the free-minds forum?

That leaves 10% chance for it to mean something else.

I do not post at free-minds, I only read.

Hellspawn
11-26-2010, 03:57 PM
That leaves 10% chance for it to mean something else.

I do not post at free-minds, I only read.

theres 10% chance for you to be right.

3rd3y3
11-26-2010, 04:07 PM
That's if you're assuming those numbers to be correct, but they are abritrary.

Hellspawn
11-26-2010, 04:22 PM
That's if you're assuming those numbers to be correct, but they are abritrary.

:) they're approximative

3rd3y3
11-26-2010, 04:27 PM
Well, since the word means all those things, then like I've stated before, it depends on the context to find it's true meaning. The numbers have no basis and are irrelevant.

Hellspawn
11-26-2010, 04:38 PM
Well, since the word means all those things, then like I've stated before, it depends on the context to find it's true meaning. The numbers have no basis and are irrelevant.

the context is clear and need no further explanations nor deep thinking "Attend (participate/perform/dont miss) constantly (all the time/most of the time/as much as you can) to prayers and to the middle prayer (middle amongst the prayers that have been just mentionned) and stand up (the opposite of sit down lol) truly obedient (execute his order/obey his command) to Allah. "

3rd3y3
11-26-2010, 04:50 PM
Looks like you are not even considering an alternative explanation to be viable.

Is the Quran complete?

Could you please show me in the Quran 'salat-ul-asr' AND 'salat-ul-dhuhr'?

If the Quran is complete and does not have the mentioned salat in it, then both are not part of Islaam.

If the Quran has them mentioned it is part of Islaam.

Show and prove.

Hellspawn
11-27-2010, 03:34 AM
Looks like you are not even considering an alternative explanation to be viable.

Is the Quran complete?

Could you please show me in the Quran 'salat-ul-asr' AND 'salat-ul-dhuhr'?

If the Quran is complete and does not have the mentioned salat in it, then both are not part of Islaam.

If the Quran has them mentioned it is part of Islaam.

Show and prove.

You are talking about alternative explanation but you did not gave it yet. I explained the verse as any person would understand it whether to read it for the 1st time or a scholar, whether a muslim or not, give me your deeper explanation maybe you'll convince me.

3rd3y3
11-27-2010, 08:13 PM
http://www.wutang-corp.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2004336&postcount=31

knewcheeze
11-29-2010, 02:24 PM
where are you getting this info from?

1)Ibn Saeed Al-Khudry reported that the messenger of God had said: "Do not write anything from me EXCEPT QURAN. Anyone who wrote anything other than the Qur'an shall erase it. "

2)From Ibn Hanbal; Zayd Ibn Thabit (The Prophet's closest revelation writer) visited the Khalifa Mu'aawiyah (more than 30 years after the Prophet's death), and told him a story about the Prophet. Mu'aawiyah liked the story and ordered someone to write it down. But Zayd said. "the messenger of God ordered us NEVER to write anything of his hadith,"

3)The famous book, "Ulum Al-Hadith" by Ibn Al-Salah, reports a hadith by Abu Hurayra in which Abu Hurayra said the messenger of God came out to us while we were writing his hadiths and said; "What are you writing?" We said, "Hadiths that we hear from you, messenger of God." He said, "A book other than the book of God?!" We said, "Should we talk about you?" He said, Talk about me, that would be fine, but those who will lie will go to Hell. Abu Hurayra said, we collected what we wrote of Hadiths and burned them in fire.

4)In the famous book, "Taq-yeed Al-Ilm", Abu Hurayra said, the messenger of God was informed that some people are writing his hadiths. He took to the pulpit of the mosque and said, "What are these books that I heard you wrote? I am just a human being. Anyone who has any of these writings should bring it here . Abu Hurayra said we collected all these and burned them in fire.

5)Again, in the book "Taq-yeed Al-Ilm", Abu Saeed Al-Khudry said, "I asked the messenger of God a permission to write his hadiths, but he refused to give me permission."

knewcheeze
11-29-2010, 02:26 PM
also

we already know hellspawn is a arab nationalist
when it comes to Islam

he's gonna try and sandwash Islam all day and all night

he copies black americans peoples street swag and shit
like a whole lot of young so called orthidox muslims do
yet he will sweep the african origins of Islam
under the rug until the day he dies

lemme tell yaw something

you think these so called orthidox muslims from
other countries like black americans....

well....wake up...they don't

in general

Hellspawn
11-29-2010, 03:58 PM
also

we already know hellspawn is a arab nationalist
when it comes to Islam

he's gonna try and sandwash Islam all day and all night

he copies black americans peoples street swag and shit
like a whole lot of young so called orthidox muslims do
yet he will sweep the african origins of Islam
under the rug until the day he dies

lemme tell yaw something

you think these so called orthidox muslims from
other countries like black americans....

well....wake up...they don't

in general

You forgot to mention that I also beat my wife and vaccine my children with porc +)