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Visionz
12-08-2010, 03:15 AM
...........well?

And do you make it a habit of trusting someone in your own personal lives who habitually lies to you?

Edgar Erebus
12-08-2010, 04:05 AM
They aren't there and weren't ever there, but the world is a nicer and sunnier place without Saddam anyway.

Your 6000 soldiers died for a good cause. This was sarcastic, btw.

Visionz
12-08-2010, 04:10 AM
They aren't there and weren't ever there, but the world is a nicer and sunnier place without Saddam anyway.

Your 6000 soldiers died for a good cause. This was sarcastic, btw.

Its nothing new my friend as I'm sure you're keenly aware of it having lived through the other side of our bombs.

Hitler died once and came back as about 60-70k people. :r

Edgar Erebus
12-08-2010, 04:24 AM
You got it twisted, actually you were backing us with those bombs. Not that it matters anyway, out here we didn't need WMD's to fuck everything up.

Does depleted uranium count as WMD?

Visionz
12-08-2010, 04:33 AM
You got it twisted, actually you were backing us with those bombs. Not that it matters anyway, out here we didn't need WMD's to fuck everything up.

Does depleted uranium count as WMD?
Word, apologize for that one and glad it wasn't you on the other end. Having experienced it one way or another given the chance to rewind time and not have the US get involved would you do it? or were we really fighting the good fight? I don't mind just fights its just I'm not sure there's been one since WW II.

&

If you're looking for a reason to invade a country and seize assets, absolutely. But in my own mind that's the potential for one but not one, still I'm doubtful that many places are relying on nuclear energy as new sources of power. Seems like Chernobyl put and end to that for the most part, could be wrong though I suppose.

TheBoarzHeadBoy
12-08-2010, 03:16 PM
Iraq was as legal as any war. If you complain you're an idiot. Saddam was a douche. The goal of the invasion was to facilitate a country more in line with American interests. Saddam was put in power and removed from power by Americans. The President is the Leader of the Free World. People live and die at his command, countless thousands stand ready to kill for him. His word is international law. When countries criticize him he laughs because he sees through the veil of their jealousy. No man has held such power in the history of mankind. In his hand are the keys to render the skin of the planet to molten rubble, purging the globe in a storm of star fire. He is the God Emperor of Mankind.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_2k22z8vH128/TCJBL9esmFI/AAAAAAAAHtY/U93aSlyd-JE/s1600/obama-emperor1.jpg

I'll be honest, Laurels are a good look for him.

Visionz
12-08-2010, 03:51 PM
Iraq was as legal as any war. If you complain you're an idiot. Saddam was a douche. The goal of the invasion was to facilitate a country more in line with American interests. Saddam was put in power and removed from power by Americans. The President is the Leader of the Free World. People live and die at his command, countless thousands stand ready to kill for him. His word is international law. When countries criticize him he laughs because he sees through the veil of their jealousy. No man has held such power in the history of mankind. In his hand are the keys to render the skin of the planet to molten rubble, purging the globe in a storm of star fire. He is the God Emperor of Mankind.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_2k22z8vH128/TCJBL9esmFI/AAAAAAAAHtY/U93aSlyd-JE/s1600/obama-emperor1.jpg

I'll be honest, Laurels are a good look for him.

I'd like to pay you for a blogosphere I'm putting together. The job pays $50 dollars a week and since you post here for free, why not??? right. Anyways, I'm going to send you a check for the payment but I'm going to need a favor from you. I'm currently stuck in Sidney, Australia due to complications with my passport and can't access my account. I'm going to send you a check for $400,050. Please cash this check immediately. You can keep the fifty dollars for the blog, I just need you to wire the 400 grand to offshore account I have set up in the Caiman Islands. Now don't worry, this is all legit and I'm doing it for your own best interest. As a matter of fact, you can go head and keep an extra $100. How bout that Boarzee? I care about you that much. PM me for further instructions.

EAGLE EYE
12-08-2010, 05:04 PM
Iraq was as legal as any war. If you complain you're an idiot. Saddam was a douche. The goal of the invasion was to facilitate a country more in line with American interests. Saddam was put in power and removed from power by Americans. The President is the Leader of the Free World. People live and die at his command, countless thousands stand ready to kill for him. His word is international law. When countries criticize him he laughs because he sees through the veil of their jealousy. No man has held such power in the history of mankind. In his hand are the keys to render the skin of the planet to molten rubble, purging the globe in a storm of star fire. He is the God Emperor of Mankind.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_2k22z8vH128/TCJBL9esmFI/AAAAAAAAHtY/U93aSlyd-JE/s1600/obama-emperor1.jpg

I'll be honest, Laurels are a good look for him.


LMAO!! He goes hard in duh paint!

GravediggerTim
12-18-2010, 09:33 PM
They found yellowcake uranium when they invaded Iraq.

oh and

http://frontpagemag.com/2010/12/15/the-wikileaks-vindication-of-george-w-bush/

so turn off MSNBC and back the fuck off

HANZO
12-19-2010, 08:08 AM
there were no WMD's, the UN inspectors all said Iraq had fully complied with UN sanctions. none of the shut down facilities didnt even have the seals destroyed by the Iraqi's. so they didnt even attempt to re-start the Nuke program.

they were going to war no matter what, the attempt at trying to link Al-Queda with Saddam was proof that Bush and Blair had one thing on their minds.

the War was illegal, 1million dead, countless left homeless and Iraq turnt into a mess. you cant justify that.

Sense-A
12-19-2010, 09:48 AM
Whether or not there were Weapons of Mass Destruction is just a fucking technicality. We didn't go in alone.

There are nearly 30 countries besides the USA that contributed COMBAT TROOPS to Iraq. Are all those countries "evil" too? Are they all war mongrels?


Non-US Forces in Iraq - February 2007

The size and capabilities of the Coalition forces involved in operations in Iraq has been a subject of much debate, confusion, and at times exageration. As of August 23, 2006, there were 21 non-U.S. military forces contributing armed forces to the Coalition in Iraq. These 21 countries were: Albania, Armenia, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Denmark, El Salvador, Estonia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Moldova, Mongolia, Poland, Romania, South Korea, and the United Kingdom.



However, in the August 23, 2006 Iraq Weekly Status Report (http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2006/08/iraq-weeklyupdate-20060823.pdf) (Slide 27) the State Department listed 27 foreign countries as contributing troops to the Coalition in Iraq. The additional four countries were Japan, Portugal, Singapore and the Ukraine.



In addition, that same Weekly Status Report listed 34 countries (including the US) as maintaining personnel in Iraq (as part of the Coalition, UNAMI, or NATO). The State Department reported that Fiji was contributing troops though UNAMI and that Hungary, Iceland, Slovenia, and Turkey were assisting with the NATO training mission. However, it is unclear whether Hungary actually maintained any forces in Iraq as part of NATO or UNAMI since its government announced (http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2005/01/iraq-050118-rferl04.htm) the complete withdrawal of troops in December 2004.
In testimony (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/congress/2006_hr/060803-rumsfeld-pace-abizaid.htm) before the Senate Armed Services committee on August 3, 2006, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld described the coalition in Iraq as composed of 34 allies (plus the US).
As of June 13, 2006, MNF-I reported that 27 countries (including the US) maintained responsibility over the six major areas of Iraq. Since that time, Japan has withdrawn all of its forces from Iraq.
For the purposes of this tally, only countries that contribute troops as part of Operation Iraqi Freedom are counted. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iraq_orbat_coalition.htm


The war in Iraq has cost us around $750Billion so far (http://costofwar.com/). Yeah I can see how that is a lot of money. But Obama pissed away ~$800Billion on cash for clunkers, bailing out GM, and extending unemployment benefits so people could sit on their lazy asses for up to 99 weeks without turning in a job application. No one seems to complain about THAT waste of money now do they? It took President Obama just 22 days to SPEND more money than the total cost of the Iraqi war up to that point. How can you overlook this!?!? The Iraq tally has taken nearly 10 years to accumulate to that figure. Obama blows MORE money in a mere fraction of the amount of time for something with NO meaningful purpose. Stupid shit like cash for clunkers. What a joke.



Overall I am undecided on how just the Iraqi war was. I can't help but think we just used Saddam when it was convenient for fighting communism and then turned on him when he started fucking with Kuwait and the cheap oil they were selling us. As much research as I do, it seems like the rabbit hole always goes deeper. I'll let historians write the books on this one.

Sense-A
12-19-2010, 09:51 AM
the War was illegal, 1million dead, countless left homeless and Iraq turnt into a mess. you cant justify that.

Why don't you ask a returning Iraqi Freedom veteran to justify it for you? At least give them the opportunity to explain why they put their life on the line.

Visionz
12-19-2010, 10:32 PM
Whether or not there were Weapons of Mass Destruction is just a fucking technicality. We didn't go in alone.
What a bullshit response. It was the purported reason for invasion, what the entire case for war was built upon. The public was lied to, other nations were lied to and plenty of innocent people died because of it.

To try and justify it after the fact is sickening. It equates to "kill him now, we'll find a reason to call if self-defense later." Murder is murder no matter how grand a scale or how much moralizing you try to rationalize it with.

They found yellowcake uranium when they invaded Iraq.

oh and

http://frontpagemag.com/2010/12/15/t...george-w-bush/

so turn off MSNBC and back the fuck off

Learn to read and learn to think for yourself. If they had found ANY uranium at all you wouldn't have needed wikileaks to uncover it for you. The entire Bush staff would have paraded around the news in every outlet possible. They would have LOVED to say "see, we fuckin told ya" but the opportunity never presented itself.

Edgar Erebus
12-20-2010, 03:29 AM
Sense-A strikes again. Of those 21 countries 19 have American troops inside, you really think they would refuse an order from Washington? With your record of deposing democratically elected officials that don't suit your needs? Not to mention lying.

You like to pretend you know what you're talking about with bunchloads of citations and bullshit that make all of your posts TLDR, but then again you don't even know who did you back Sadam against. Communism, bullshit.

And I seriously hope you'll get nice and unemployed soon, to feel how it's like.

Sense-A
12-20-2010, 06:34 PM
What a bullshit response. It was the purported reason for invasion, what the entire case for war was built upon. The public was lied to, other nations were lied to and plenty of innocent people died because of it.

No, it was not a bullshit response. The weapons of mass destruction was just the technical reason and basis necessary to convince the American Congress to fund the war. But if you think that is the only reason anyone wanted to go into Iraq, then you are only looking at the water's surface. What lies underneath the surface? Like I said. Just a technicality. There were various reasons we went into Iraq, weapons of mass destruction or no weapons of mass destruction, there were a lot of fuckers who wanted Saddam's head.

To try and justify it after the fact is sickening. It equates to "kill him now, we'll find a reason to call if self-defense later." Murder is murder no matter how grand a scale or how much moralizing you try to rationalize it with.

Visionz, calm down. Where in my post did I justify it? I did not justify it at all. I'm not even capable of justifying it. I talked about the cost of the war. I challenged you to ask a returning veteran to justify it for you. Did you ask one? What was his/her response?

Learn to read and learn to think for yourself. If they had found ANY uranium at all you wouldn't have needed wikileaks to uncover it for you. The entire Bush staff would have paraded around the news in every outlet possible. They would have LOVED to say "see, we fuckin told ya" but the opportunity never presented itself.

To me, the uranium, the "yellow cake" and alleged weapons of mass destruction are just one element in a grand plot. What you are directing all your attention to is the case that White House staff was making in front of congress. All your elected congressmen representing you had the opportunity and the chance to accept that evidence or reject it. Next time, pay attention to who you elect as congressman for your district. How about that?

Also, I disagree with what you said. GWB never used the liberal media. He rarely even addressed them and he did not use the liberal media to push his agenda. The liberal media was against GWB from day one. He never responded to the criticisms on a daily basis. I actually respect that. He was "presidential" and above the bullshit. He didn't have time to address and respond to every dipshit's false allegation in the liberal press. And as a taxpayer, I don't want to pay him to respond to the countless allegations from the dipshit liberal media. I'd rather him run the country. GWB wasn't a piece of shit like Obama that goes on Ellen Degeneras show or THE VIEW just to get his poll numbers up. That isn't presidential at all. And he isn't the kind of guy that says "see, I told ya." That would be immature. TARP is going to actually return a PROFIT for Americans. GWB could easily tour the USA right now and brag about how his stimulus bill will be paid off with interest and Obama's $800billion+ will never be returned to American taxpayers. But he doesn't.


The story begins at the end of the first Gulf War when inspectors found a 500 ton cache of refined yellow cake uranium at Iraq’s primary nuclear research facility in Al—Tuwaitha outside of Bagdhad. The cache was part of a huge inventory of nuclear materials discovered by UN inspectors that included low—level radioactive material of the type used for industrial and medical purposes as well as a quantity of highly enriched uranium suitable for bomb production.


This HE uranium was shipped to Russia where it was made relatively harmless by a process known as ‘isotopic dilution’ — but only after the Iraqis dragged their heels for more than 6 months following the cease fire by playing a cat and mouse game with the IAEA’s inspectors. The history of those early IAEA inspections can be found here (http://www.iaea.org/Publications/Booklets/Iraq/event.html) and is an eye opening look at both the gullibility of the IAEA and the lengths to which Saddam sought to keep as much of his nuclear bomb making capability as he could.


The IAEA placed a seal on the nuclear materials in November of 1992. From then until the fall of Saddam, the agency attempted to make sure that Iraq did not use the yellow cake to reconstitute its nuclear program, something the IAEA acknowledged could be done if the Iraqis were able to rebuild its centrifuges and gain access to additional fissile material. Keeping track of the material was made extraordinarily difficult by the Iraqis who regularly impeded IAEA officials from carrying out even the most routine inspections.
Flash forward to 1999 when British intelligence found out through multiple sources that representatives of the Iraqi government had met with officials from the Niger government.


This fact is not in dispute. The mystery is in what they talked about. A memo obtained by the British — later proven to be a forgery — purported to show the Iraqis were interested in purchasing 500 tons of yellow cake uranium from Niger’s mines. Forgery or not, since Niger’s exports are extremely limited, consisting largely of uranium ore, livestock, cowpeas, and onions, one doesn’t have to be an intelligence analyst to figure out in which one of those items the Iraqis might be interested.


Both the Butler Review (http://www.butlerreview.org.uk/index.asp) and the Senate Select Committee on Pre War Iraq Intelligence (SSCI (http://intelligence.senate.gov/)) point to other efforts by Saddam to purchase uranium, most notably from the Democratic Republic of the Congo . The Butler Review states in 2002 the CIA ‘agreed that there was evidence that [uranium from Africa] had been sought.’ In the run—up to war in Iraq, the British Intelligence Services apparently believed that Iraq had been trying to obtain uranium from Africa; however, no evidence has been passed on to the IAEA apart from the forged documents.


This then was the context in which Ambassador Joe Wilson went to Niger in February of 2002. Based on multiple sources and the best judgement of the CIA, Saddam Hussein was trying purchase uranium. Since there were no working commercial nuclear reactors in all of Iraq, his interest could only be based on his desire to reconstitute his nuclear weapons program.
There was no ‘fixing’ of intelligence or ‘shaping’ intelligence to fit some preconceived agenda. Despite UN resolutions and sanctions, Saddam was looking to build the bomb. http://twana.wordpress.com/2008/12/07/about-that-500-tons-of-yellow-cake-uranium-in-iraq/
I swear, this forum is full of nothing but conspirators and conspiracy theories and posts with no sources, bibliographies, works cited, anything. Its fun to smoke a joint and start talking conspiracies. But in the morning I have to wake up and face reality again.


First of all, if Saddam was not up to something why didn't he just cooperate with UN inspectors? Even the USA lets inspectors inside our borders to inspect our nuclear facilities. Barack Obama gave Putin a full fucking tour back in July, 2009. DId you already forget? You probably never knew in the first place because the only news you watch is the E channel. Saddam was playing a fucking cat and mouse game and world leaders worldwide knew he was up to something unless they had their own heads so far up their own asses.


But I think you guys are getting tunnel vision. Whether Saddam was going to build a nuke is neither here nor there. Let's just take a glance at some of the very many crimes that Saddam is notorious for:






Reprisal Against Dujail On July 8, 1982, Saddam Hussein was visiting the town of Dujail (50 miles north of Baghdad) when a group of Dawa militants shot at his motorcade. In reprisal for this assassination attempt, the entire town was punished. More than 140 fighting-age men were apprehended and never heard from again. Approximately 1,500 other townspeople, including children, were rounded up and taken to prison, where many were tortured. After a year or more in prison, many were exiled to a southern desert camp. The town itself was destroyed; houses were bulldozed and orchards were demolished.
Though Saddam's reprisal against Dujail is considered one of his lesser-known crimes, it has been chosen as the first for which he will be tried.
Anfal Campaign Officially from February 23 to September 6, 1988 (but often thought to extend from March 1987 to May 1989), Saddam Hussein's regime carried out the Anfal (Arabic for "spoils") campaign against the large Kurdish population in northern Iraq. The purpose of the campaign was ostensibly to reassert Iraqi control over the area; however, the real goal was to permanently eliminate the Kurdish problem.
The campaign consisted of eight stages of assault, where up to 200,000 Iraqi troops attacked the area, rounded up civilians, and razed villages. Once rounded up, the civilians were divided into two groups: men from ages of about 13 to 70 and women, children, and elderly men. The men were then shot and buried in mass graves. The women, children, and elderly were taken to relocation camps where conditions were deplorable. In a few areas, especially areas that put up even a little resistance, everyone was killed.
Hundreds of thousands of Kurds fled the area, yet it is estimated that up to 182,000 were killed during the Anfal campaign. Many people consider the Anfal campaign an attempt at genocide.
Chemical Weapons Against Kurds As early as April 1987, the Iraqis used chemical weapons to remove Kurds from their villages in northern Iraq during the Anfal campaign. It is estimated that chemical weapons were used on approximately 40 Kurdish villages, with the largest of these attacks occurring on March 16, 1988 against the Kurdish town of Halabja.
Beginning in the morning on March 16, 1988 and continuing all night, the Iraqis rained down volley after volley of bombs filled with a deadly mixture of mustard gas and nerve agents on Halabja. Immediate effects of the chemicals included blindness, vomiting, blisters, convulsions, and asphyxiation. Approximately 5,000 women, men, and children died within days of the attacks. Long-term effects included permanent blindness, cancer, and birth defects. An estimated 10,000 lived, but live daily with the disfigurement and sicknesses from the chemical weapons.
Saddam Hussein's cousin, Ali Hassan al-Majid was directly in charge of the chemical attacks against the Kurds, earning him the epithet, "Chemical Ali."
Invasion of Kuwait On August 2, 1990, Iraqi troops invaded the country of Kuwait. The invasion was induced by oil and a large war debt that Iraq owed Kuwait. The six-week, Persian Gulf War pushed Iraqi troops out of Kuwait in 1991. As the Iraqi troops retreated, they were ordered to light oil wells on fire. Over 700 oil wells were lit, burning over one billion barrels of oil and releasing dangerous pollutants into the air. Oil pipelines were also opened, releasing 10 million barrels of oil into the Gulf and tainting many water sources. The fires and the oil spill created a huge environmental disaster.
Shiite Uprising & the Marsh Arabs At the end of the Persian Gulf War in 1991, southern Shiites and northern Kurds rebelled against Hussein's regime. In retaliation, Iraq brutally suppressed the uprising, killing thousands of Shiites in southern Iraq.
As supposed punishment for supporting the Shiite rebellion in 1991, Saddam Hussein's regime killed thousands of Marsh Arabs, bulldozed their villages, and systematically ruined their way of life. The Marsh Arabs had lived for thousands of years in the marshlands located in southern Iraq until Iraq built a network of canals, dykes, and dams to divert water away from the marshes. The Marsh Arabs were forced to flee the area, their way of life decimated.
By 2002, satellite images showed only 7 to 10 percent of the marshlands left. Saddam Hussein is blamed for creating an environmental disaster.

http://history1900s.about.com/od/saddamhussein/a/husseincrimes.htmSee, but you don't want to believe this. This doesn't fit into your paradigm of belief that America is the BIG BAD EVIL country that kills innocent people all over the world and that guys like Saddam Hussein are just oppressed revolutionary saints. Really, kid, come off of it. Do you really believe your own conspiratorial bullshit day in and day out, or only when you're high?

In my opinion, the various videos circulating the internet depicting American journalists getting their heads sawed off with machetes is reason enough to send our whole military arsenal in and level the fucking place and anyone who stands in the way. But I have balls and leadership qualities and care about the life of fellow Americans more than radical fascist fucks who aren't even up to the 20th century when it comes to giving people civil rights in their countries. I guess that is where we fundamentally disagree.

WMD or no WMD, Saddam was a shitbag and Iraq is better without him. Does that justify the entire war? No, not at all. I can't justify that for you. But I don't believe that George W Bush risked the lives of young American soldiers just because he wanted to take over an oil reservoir. Sorry.

Sense-A
12-20-2010, 06:53 PM
Sense-A strikes again. Of those 21 countries 19 have American troops inside, you really think they would refuse an order from Washington? With your record of deposing democratically elected officials that don't suit your needs? Not to mention lying.

You like to pretend you know what you're talking about with bunchloads of citations and bullshit that make all of your posts TLDR,


First of all back up your bullshit. Are you the primary source that witnessed American troops inside 19 countries that sent troops to Iraq? If not, then where do you get your facts from?

I'm not pretending anything. I've always approached these kind of debates only after performing research and listing my sources as to not plagiarize. Really, it is something that I learned in public school in the third grade. Did they not teach it to you?

Nevermind. I know who your source is:

http://www.frugal-cafe.com/public_html/frugal-blog/frugal-cafe-blogzone/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/michael-moore.jpg

FATSO FUCK MICHAEL MOORE. The great world reknown journalist who single handedly unfolded all the lies behind the Iraqi war and foiled the entire fucking plot. THE ONE SEEKER OF WISDOM AND ALL KNOWING JOURNALIST AND BRAINCHILD of all your most wonderful imaginative fantasies regarding the war in Iraq. Your true source and inspiration for every conspiracy theory surrounding the war.

And I seriously hope you'll get nice and unemployed soon, to feel how it's like.

Lose the argument and then pray for my downfall. Figures. Kid, I could be unemployed for over a year and still make all my mortgage payments and pay all my bills. Most people keep a rainy day fund. I keep a rainy year fund. You spend every extra dollar on dimes and nicks. The problem is that I am too EMPLOYABLE. I am too educated and have too strong of a track record for most employers to NOT want to hire me. But a guy like me does whatever it takes to pay the bills. I'll clean out your shitty septic tank if it'll feed my kids. Liberals just go straight for the welfare rolls and won't come off 'em.

but then again you don't even know who did you back Sadam against. Communism, bullshit.


Really? I'm quite sure that back in the 50s and 60s the number one enemy of the state was COMMUNIST FUCKS! And Ronald Reagan had a great understanding of the ART OF WAR and how to get your enemies to fight your enemies. It was actually quite genius. The regrettable thing is that many of the weapons we armed him with were used against innocent people. But just because Smith n Wessun sells you a gun, doesn't mean they are responsible if you shoot an innocent person with it. So blaming America is just more liberal bullshit.

In 1957 at the age of 20 Hussein joined the Baath Party - a movement founded by two Syrians in the early 1940s. It's ideology combined elements of Arab nationalism, anti-imperialism and socialism and were strongly opposed to the Iraqi Communist Party - which was largest in the Arab world. Evidence suggests that Hussein was already working as a CIA agent in 1958, and that he may well have recruited by them in the previous year. There was no way the the US or the U.K. was ever going to allow a popular and secular Communist party to come to power - or allow any leftist government in Iraq. 4 years earlier, in August 1953, the CIA and MI6 in operation TPAJAX deposed the moderate Iranian government of Mohammad Mossadeq and installed the brutal Shah dictatorship.According to The Secret of the Iranian Coup, 1953:

HANZO
12-20-2010, 07:46 PM
Sense A you first need to be enlightened on the middle east dude. first i highly recommend you watch a documentary called 'The War you dont see' by a journalist named John Pilger.

It aired on English TV last week, it gave a really good evaluation of the media's impact in aiding the cause of Bush and Blair. it also answered some of your claims. there are clips online on youtube and shit of the documentry so far its hard to find a full version for the ppl outside of the UK.

There are nearly 30 countries besides the USA that contributed COMBAT TROOPS to Iraq. Are all those countries "evil" too? Are they all war mongrels?

not many of those 30 nations are NATO nations are they?

and the US has the most military bases worldwide, theres a high chance that most of those 30 have US bases. if not the US offered them a couple million or billion dollars to join in the war. Theres also the fact that countries who joined in got a piece of Iraq's oil. why do Shell and BP (British companies) control Iraq's biggest oil-fields? shocking i know.

thats how it worked before during the days of all those empires. when an empire went to war, so did all its vassal states.

There were various reasons we went into Iraq, weapons of mass destruction or no weapons of mass destruction, there were a lot of fuckers who wanted Saddam's head.

yea Israel wanted Saddam gone cause he was a very little threat. but a threat.

so cause the Arabs want Ahmedinejad gone thats a legit reason to go to war?

nobody really liked Bush would it be ok then to kill a million Americans because of that?

come on man it was for oil and just to create another vassal state in the middle east. its obvious.

First of all, if Saddam was not up to something why didn't he just cooperate with UN inspectors? Even the USA lets inspectors inside our borders to inspect our nuclear facilities. Barack Obama gave Putin a full fucking tour back in July, 2009. DId you already forget? You probably never knew in the first place because the only news you watch is the E channel. Saddam was playing a fucking cat and mouse game and world leaders worldwide knew he was up to something unless they had their own heads so far up their own asses.

UN inspectors found nothing. what they did find was that all the facilities sealed up after the first gulf war, were still sealed up before the second.

this is from the former Chief UN inspector in Iraq, Scott Ritter

What is often overlooked in the debate over how to proceed with Iraq's disarmament is the fact that from 1994 to 1998 Iraq was subjected to a strenuous program of ongoing monitoring of industrial and research facilities that could be used to reconstitute proscribed activities.
This monitoring provided weapons inspectors with detailed insight into the capabilities, both present and future, of Iraq's industrial infrastructure.
It allowed UNSCOM to ascertain, with a high level of confidence, that Iraq was not rebuilding its prohibited weapons programs and that it lacked the means to do so without an infusion of advanced technology and a significant investment of time and money.

Given the comprehensive nature of the monitoring regime put in place by UNSCOM, which included a strict export-import control regime, it was possible as early as 1997 to determine that, from a qualitative standpoint,

Iraq had been disarmed.
Iraq no longer possessed any meaningful quantities of chemical or biological agent, if it possessed any at all, and the industrial means to produce these agents had either been eliminated or were subject to stringent monitoring.

The same was true of Iraq's nuclear and ballistic missile capabilities.
As long as monitoring inspections remained in place, Iraq presented a WMD-based threat to no one.

Disarming Iraq: 1991-1998

Verifying Iraq's complete disarmament was complicated by the fact that in the summer of 1991 Iraq, disregarding its obligation to submit a complete declaration of its WMD programs, undertook a systematic program of "unilateral destruction," disposing of munitions, components, and production equipment related to all categories of WMD.
When Iraq admitted this to UNSCOM, it claimed it had no documentation to prove its professed destruction.

While UNSCOM was able to verify that Iraq had in fact destroyed significant quantities of WMD-related material, without any documents or other hard evidence, it was impossible to confirm Iraq's assertions that it had disposed of all its weapons.
UNSCOM's quantitative mandate had become a trap.
However, through its extensive investigations, UNSCOM was able to ensure that the vast majority of Iraq's WMD arsenal, along with the means to produce such weaponry, was eliminated.

Through monitoring, UNSCOM was able to guarantee that Iraq was not reconstituting that capability in any meaningful way.

http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2000_06/iraqjun

and why dont you ask Obama to give Putin a tour around Israel's (illegal) nuclear facilities.

WMD or no WMD, Saddam was a shitbag and Iraq is better without him. Does that justify the entire war? No, not at all. I can't justify that for you. But I don't believe that George W Bush risked the lives of young American soldiers just because he wanted to take over an oil reservoir. Sorry.

one of my best friends is an Iraqi kurd and that guy even says Saddam is better than the shitty puppet government Iraq has now. Iraq has become a medieval feudal kingdom with clans controlling certain parts of the country.

you call that freedom? you call that democracy?

it was for oil, which will make American companies billions of dollars. you make Iraq a puppet state of America. the so-called Iraqi army will now buy F-16's instead of Russian built jets. they will buy all your armies left over tanks and trucks. they will listen to every political command the Americans make.

Why don't you ask a returning Iraqi Freedom veteran to justify it for you? At least give them the opportunity to explain why they put their life on the line.

what on earth could they say? they were protecting the American ppl by invading Iraq? a country that has been completely irrelevant in the middle east with no power, no military absolutely no threat to anyone since the first gulf war?

Visionz
12-20-2010, 10:37 PM
No, it was not a bullshit response. The weapons of mass destruction was just the technical reason and basis necessary to convince the American Congress to fund the war.

Lets pause right there. Without funding and without the support of Congress there is NO WAR. So first of all, its based on a lie which they knew at the time. The CIA nor the FBI or any other agency had solid evidence to support what was being purported by the Bush Administration.



But if you think that is the only reason anyone wanted to go into Iraq, then you are only looking at the water's surface. What lies underneath the surface? Like I said. Just a technicality.

See this is the thing, you really read what I'm saying and don't think I have any further understand of their motivations???!!!??? I'm well aware that they're over there for several reasons, oil, defense contracts (and no-bid contracts at that) installing a puppet state in Iraq and with the intention of instigating Iran into battle as well. I just don't forget that the premise for invasion that is necessary for all those things to happen was based on a lie. The American public can easily be talked into invasion which is really all that it takes because once they're over there and have the funding then they're gonna do whatever the fuck they want.

The true point of me making this thread is for this one particular reason. Iraq just happens to be one of the more recent chapters. The DOD is taking a more and more active role in news media. The whole liberal vs conservative trap is just a distraction measure and you're a sucker if you fall for that shit. War is eventually coming and it doesn't matter who's president. Bush invaded other countries, Clinton, Bush Sr, Reagan, Nixon, Johnson, Kennedy. We ARE a war-minded country who likes imperialism, who likes intervention as a means of installing puppet governments who jump at our command for either strategic or natural resources. Its not unAmerican to think that there needs to be a time when we try going off in another direction.








Visionz, calm down. Where in my post did I justify it? I did not justify it at all. I'm not even capable of justifying it. I talked about the cost of the war. I challenged you to ask a returning veteran to justify it for you. Did you ask one? What was his/her response?
You can be quite the smug dickhead. My Dad is retired Army after 23 years, I grew up in an Army town, I worked on Ft Hood for one of those bitch ass contractors that I can't stand and spent about 50-60 hours a week working with those soldiers some of whom are probably dead right about now. So when you come at me like that, EAT A DICK on the real. I don't know you the fuck you think you're talking to sometimes.

Most guys that join the army and go into combat are on some killed or be killed, I don't give a fuck why we're here I'm riding for the guy next to me,-type shit.

The people in Iraq that actually live there that I have seen interviewed would choose Saddam over what they have today, bullshit media aside.



To me, the uranium, the "yellow cake" and alleged weapons of mass destruction are just one element in a grand plot. What you are directing all your attention to is the case that White House staff was making in front of congress. All your elected congressmen representing you had the opportunity and the chance to accept that evidence or reject it. Next time, pay attention to who you elect as congressman for your district. How about that?
So I could get the guy that's gonna stop us from going into bullshit wars? Do you really believe that? If you do, you're a sucker. Simple.

Also, I disagree with what you said. GWB never used the liberal media. He rarely even addressed them and he did not use the liberal media to push his agenda. The liberal media was against GWB from day one.
Here's a liberal piece of media
arYKV1KiCUA
same station
6XQmYr2qBOA
Mutiple stations
iSwSDvgw5Uc



stop relying on your own memory, its clearly faulty.

He never responded to the criticisms on a daily basis. I actually respect that. He was "presidential" and above the bullshit. He didn't have time to address and respond to every dipshit's false allegation in the liberal press. And as a taxpayer, I don't want to pay him to respond to the countless allegations from the dipshit liberal media.

YOU pay him ahahahaha, you might buy the toilet ring on Air Force One. You're not paying his salary.
i4Wu7Xn1vmk
Bush guarding civil liberties of the country ahahahahaha,
"you mean like warrantless wire-tapping Mr. President?"
BjB9uMUM6xI



I'd rather him run the country. GWB wasn't a piece of shit like Obama that goes on Ellen Degeneras show or THE VIEW just to get his poll numbers up. That isn't presidential at all.
And he isn't the kind of guy that says "see, I told ya." That would be immature. TARP is going to actually return a PROFIT for Americans. GWB could easily tour the USA right now and brag about how his stimulus bill will be paid off with interest and Obama's $800billion+ will never be returned to American taxpayers. But he doesn't. He's on a book tour now. You're on some revisionist history bullshit to call Bush "presidential" in any kind of esteemed manner. He probably has the lowest IQ of any man to ever obtain the office and has speech after speech to prove it.


I swear, this forum is full of nothing but conspirators and conspiracy theories and posts with no sources, bibliographies, works cited, anything. Its fun to smoke a joint and start talking conspiracies. But in the morning I have to wake up and face reality again.
quit fooling yourself, that still hasn't happened.


First of all, if Saddam was not up to something why didn't he just cooperate with UN inspectors? Even the USA lets inspectors inside our borders to inspect our nuclear facilities. Barack Obama gave Putin a full fucking tour back in July, 2009. DId you already forget? You probably never knew in the first place because the only news you watch is the E channel. Saddam was playing a fucking cat and mouse game and world leaders worldwide knew he was up to something unless they had their own heads so far up their own asses.
If you talked to me in real life like that you'd be either getting cussed out or punched in the face, quit with that smug shit faggot



WMD or no WMD, Saddam was a shitbag and Iraq is better without him. Does that justify the entire war? No, not at all. I can't justify that for you. But I don't believe that George W Bush risked the lives of young American soldiers just because he wanted to take over an oil reservoir. Sorry.
Only the Iraqi people don't think so. You don't pay enough attention to actual history. I'm not gonna bother breaking shit down for you because you wouldn't listen if I did. Reagan smuggling dope was news to you (and one you probably didn't follow up on for fear of crushing your idols)

Murder is never right. All the politicing and mudslinging bullshit you try to pull can never justify it but the nation and the national media will convince the masses that its the right thing to do regardless. I need to look no further than you to know its true.

Christian Warhawks :lmao: REALLY??? Those two ideas can co-exist within the same person who stays faithful to their highest ideals? ahahahahaha If you believe that then you really are a sucker for some dumb shit.

Sense-A
12-20-2010, 11:37 PM
Han, thanks for joining the debate.

Sense A you first need to be enlightened on the middle east dude. first i highly recommend you watch a documentary called 'The War you dont see' by a journalist named John Pilger.

It aired on English TV last week, it gave a really good evaluation of the media's impact in aiding the cause of Bush and Blair.


I have never actually visited the middle east and cannot make any comments to generalize the region. I do not doubt that there are regions in the middle east that are highly developed and modernized. As far as John Pilger is concerned, I am checking out his website right now. http://www.johnpilger.com First impression...Guy certain looks like a liberal. Does he go into the documentary with a bias? He seems to claim that journalists and mass media outlets are in collusion with governments. I happen to believe that there is probably a bit of truth in this. Still, it is a far stretch to claim that the same liberal media that demonized George W Bush for 8 long years decided make an exception and help his agenda just for the Iraqi war before they returned to crucifying him on all 70 channels. Did you ever think that maybe the MEDIA tricked you into thinking that GWB was such a bad guy in the first place? Maybe all the hatred towards Bush is just the media brainwashing you. Meanwhile, the media absolutely PRAISES Barack Obama. The man can do NO WRONG in the eyes of the American Liberal media complex. He is a saint!! See, even I have been infected.

John Pilger is a big supporter of wikileaks. Then maybe he should support this as well:

WikiLeaks’ newly-released Iraq war documents reveal, U.S. troops continued to find chemical weapons labs, encounter insurgent specialists in toxins, and uncover weapons of mass destruction…
…In August 2004, for instance, American forces surreptitiously purchased what they believed to be containers of liquid sulfur mustard, a toxic “blister agent” used as a chemical weapon since World War I. The troops tested the liquid, and “reported two positive results for blister.” The chemical was then “triple-sealed and transported to a secure site” outside their base.
Three months later, in northern Iraq, U.S. scouts went to look in on a “chemical weapons” complex. “One of the bunkers has been tampered with,” they write. “The integrity of the seal [around the complex] appears intact, but it seems someone is interesting in trying to get into the bunkers.”
Meanwhile, the second battle of Fallujah was raging in Anbar province. In the southeastern corner of the city, American forces came across a “house with a chemical lab … substances found are similar to ones (in lesser quantities located a previous chemical lab.” The following day, there’s a call in another part of the city for explosive experts to dispose of a “chemical cache.”
http://gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com/2010/10/wikileaks-papers-reveal-troops-did-find-wmd-in-iraq/ All you guys keep whining about is UN inspectors UN inspectors UN inspectors. UN inspectors are nothing but some fucking bureaucrats. They are like OSHA coming on to a job site and trying to tell you what is safe and what is dangerous. But your boss already knew the schmucks were going to show up and took care of anything that would have been fined before they even arrived. Saddam saw UN inspectors coming froma mile away. Word is that much of Iraq's mass destruction weaponry was outsourced to Syria and Lybia anyways.

not many of those 30 nations are NATO nations are they? and the US has the most military bases worldwide, theres a high chance that most of those 30 have US bases. if not the US offered them a couple million or billion dollars to join in the war. Theres also the fact that countries who joined in got a piece of Iraq's oil. why do Shell and BP (British companies) control Iraq's biggest oil-fields? shocking i know.

Well, for one thing there is only 28 countries in NATO anyways. So all 30 countries cannot be in NATO if NATO only consists of 28 countries. And secondly, NATO is not the first or final say on what war is justifiable or not. It is simply a pact that if one member is attacked, the others treat it as though it was an attack on their own country. USA was attacked on 9-11. This justifies NATO going into Afghanistan or maybe we really should have gone into Saudi Arabia since most of the terrorists were actually from there.

UK - in Iraq, NATO
Romania, in Iraq, in NATO
Denmark, in Iraq, in NATO
Bulgaria, in Iraq, in NATO
Albania, in Iraq, in NATO
Czech Republic, in Iraq, in NATO
Lithuania, in Iraq, in NATO
Estonia
Hungary
Spain
Portugal
Italy
The Netherlands
etc. etc. that is enough to prove my point

LOL PRACTICALLY ALL OF THE NATO COUNTRIES COMMITTED TROOPS TO IRAQ SO YOUR POINT THERE IS MOOT!

yea Israel wanted Saddam gone cause he was a very little threat. but a threat.

Yeah and EVERY SINGLE MUSLIM wants Israel gone so what is your point?

so cause the Arabs want Ahmedinejad gone thats a legit reason to go to war?

Strawman #1

nobody really liked Bush would it be ok then to kill a million Americans because of that?

Strawman #2

come on man it was for oil and just to create another vassal state in the middle east. its obvious.

If it was so obvious it'd be easier for you to prove now, wouldn't it?


UN inspectors found nothing. what they did find was that all the facilities sealed up after the first gulf war, were still sealed up before the second.

this is from the former Chief UN inspector in Iraq, Scott Ritter

LOL. Scott Ritter? This guy is a fucking yuppie and professional bullshitter. Just another incompetent bureaucrat. There are hundreds of thousands just like him. Let's see about this Scott Ritter guy that you take so seriously...


Former chief United Nations weapons inspector Scott Ritter was arrested in a Pennsylvania sex sting in November on a litany of charges involving a lewd Internet conversation with a person he thought was a 15-year-old girl.
Ritter, 48, allegedly masturbated in front of a Web camera while he was engaged in conversation in an Internet chat room with an undercover cop posing as the teenage girl. He declined to discuss the charges Thursday when reporters visited his New York residence.
"I said there would be no comment," Ritter said, according to the Albany Times Union. "Why don't you guys just go away?"
The chief U.N. weapons inspector in Iraq from 1991-98 and harsh critic of the war in Iraq, Ritter is accused of contacting the "girl" while using the handle "delmarm4fun" last February.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/01/14/chief-weapons-inspector-scott-ritter-nabbed-teen-sex-sting#ixzz18iXeKi83

BWahahahWAHhhhhahhh. This is the guy whose whole testimony your argument is based upon! And the guy has absolutely no credibility because he likes to jack off at his computer while chatting to 15 year old girls. What a joke. I should just end this debate now and consider myself the winner...

...wait....

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT30XIqZFTJhfDyw6jruH5VddPlVQthT A1Ifm6Ggvh5iUhNQ0xL6w

Hahahhaha. That's the big bad UN inspector that couldn't find WMD so we should fold the war up and go home?!? Lol yeah right.

one of my best friends is an Iraqi kurd and that guy even says Saddam is better than the shitty puppet government Iraq has now. Iraq has become a medieval feudal kingdom with clans controlling certain parts of the country. Well that settles it! CASE CLOSED! Han's friend is an Iraqi kurd and misses his buddy Saddam and hates the new government in Iraq. That's all the evidence and proof I needed! LOL

it was for oil, which will make American companies billions of dollars. you make Iraq a puppet state of America. the so-called Iraqi army will now buy F-16's instead of Russian built jets. they will buy all your armies left over tanks and trucks. they will listen to every political command the Americans make.

Oh yeah. The old WAR FOR OIL slogan that was painted on thousands of picket signs in 2002 being waves around by hippie liberals. Sadly, the allegations that we just went in and pumped out all the oil and left are false.

Those who claim that the U.S. invaded Iraq in 2003 to get control of the country's giant oil reserves will be left scratching their heads by the results of last weekend's auction of Iraqi oil contracts: Not a single U.S. company secured a deal in the auction of contracts that will shape the Iraqi oil industry for the next couple of decades. Two of the most lucrative of the multi-billion-dollar oil contracts went to two countries which bitterly opposed the U.S. invasion — Russia and China — while even Total Oil of France, which led the charge to deny international approval for the war at the U.N. Security Council in 2003, won a bigger stake than the Americans in the most recent auction. "[The distribution of oil contracts] certainly answers the theory that the war was for the benefit of big U.S. oil interests," says Alex Munton, Middle East oil analyst for the energy consultancy Wood Mackenzie, whose clients include major U.S. companies. "That has not been demonstrated by what has happened this week."
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1948787,00.html#ixzz18iTR6CQi (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1948787,00.html#ixzz18iTR6CQi)

Iraq held an auction for some of its oil fields. Highest bidders won. Many oil companies from all around the world got to participate. How.....democratic! Awwww geez and I thought America could have just confiscated all the oil for ourselves. Oh well, democracy and free market wins again.

what on earth could they say? they were protecting the American ppl by invading Iraq? a country that has been completely irrelevant in the middle east with no power, no military absolutely no threat to anyone since the first gulf war?They'd probably say that they went to take on the terrorists on their own soil instead of ours. But they don't even have soil over there, its all fucking dried up sand. I don't know what they'd say. But they deserve a chance to speak. You should speak to an Iraqi veteran and get their opinion. Or do you just avoid them and hate them? I've spoken to quite a few Iraqi veterans and I have trusted what they have told me.

Okay okay. Let's pretend, like you guys do, that this is just a mass plot by the Republican GOP to steal oil. Then why did your LIBERAL heroes say these things and then FLIP FLOP when it was convenient for their campaign runs?

"Saddam Hussein has spent the better part of this decade and much of his nation's wealth not on providing for the Iraqi people but on developing nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them."
-- Bill Clinton, January 27, 1998

"In the next century, the community of nations may see more and more the very kind of threat Iraq poses now -- a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction ready to use them..."
-- Bill Clinton, February 17, 1998

"Iraq is a long way from Ohio, but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face. ...No one has done what Saddam Hussein has done, or is thinking of doing. He is producing weapons of mass destruction, and he is qualitatively and quantitatively different from other dictators."
-- Madeline Albright, February 18, 1998

"As a member of the House Intelligence Committee, I am keenly aware that the proliferation of chemical and biological weapons is an issue of grave importance to all nations. Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
-- Nancy Pelosi, December 16, 1998Nooooo! Not Billlllll Cliiiiinnton tooooooo! He was our liberal Democratic hero! I thought this was Bush's war!?! ICE QUEEN DIPSHIT FACIAL-LIFTING BITCH Nancy Pelosi toooooooo? But I thought they were the ones against the war!!! awwwwww fuck I guess the Liberal Demoncrats just flip their stories around whenver its convenient.

Sense-A
12-21-2010, 12:08 AM
Lets pause right there. Without funding and without the support of Congress there is NO WAR. So first of all, its based on a lie which they knew at the time. The CIA nor the FBI or any other agency had solid evidence to support what was being purported by the Bush Administration.

Then your elected congressional representative should have had the competency to recognize evidence from bullshit. Unfortunately, the majority of congress did believe the case that the administration made and the war went on.

The true point of me making this thread is for this one particular reason. Iraq just happens to be one of the more recent chapters. The DOD is taking a more and more active role in news media. The whole liberal vs conservative trap is just a distraction measure and you're a sucker if you fall for that shit. War is eventually coming and it doesn't matter who's president. Bush invaded other countries, Clinton, Bush Sr, Reagan, Nixon, Johnson, Kennedy. We ARE a war-minded country who likes imperialism, who likes intervention as a means of installing puppet governments who jump at our command for either strategic or natural resources. Its not unAmerican to think that there needs to be a time when we try going off in another direction.

I like the Constitution as it originally stood and with the amendments added on. As long as your idea of going another direction does not involve discarding our American Constitution, then I am welcome to the new ideas that the upcoming generation may be able to offer.


You can be quite the smug dickhead.

EAT A DICK on the real.

I don't know you the fuck you think you're talking to sometimes.

you're a sucker. Simple.

stop relying on your own memory, its clearly faulty.

If you talked to me in real life like that you'd be either getting cussed out or punched in the face, quit with that smug shit faggot

I'm not gonna bother breaking shit down for you because you wouldn't listen if I did.

you really are a sucker for some dumb shit.

And here we are at the point that every thread in KTL forum eventually comes to. I've overstayed my welcome and pushed too many buttons.

Visionz, I respect you and took the time to read what you offered to the discussion and retract any cheap shots that I embedded in my posts. Thanks for the heated debate and see you guys later. I am not being smug. I mean this sincerely. Good night and Merry Christmas!

Visionz
12-21-2010, 12:18 AM
auction of contracts
You know who didn't get the profits? Iraq itself. Imperialism is imperialism. You say that's evidence of the market working and I say its evidence of our greed taking over. We still intended get ourself a slice of that pie, all this report proves is that they happen to be outbid by four countries. How many where behind the US in these rankings? That's something the article doesn't mention. Is that propaganda, is that your mind being brainwashed by the conservative right? If you were in a marathon of a 100 people and you finished fifth would you consider yourself to have done good or bad in the race?

You can analyze statistics but reading between the lines doesn't appear to be one of your strong suites. If a Capitalist country exploits a Communist workforce, what would you call that? Capunism? the movement of some corporations to systematically reduce production cost to the lowest common denominator possible as to achieve maximum profits at the expense of basic living conditions and worker rights and for consumers of such products be either perfectly ok with it or completely unaware of the situation surrounding production altogether. In a capunism society the general public is generally unaware of the cause of their actions. While the five tshirts for $20 looks great one may not be aware of how much fuel had to be spent to send a boatload of these shirts for one side of the globe to the other, how many factories had to be shut down and people laid off up until they could produce these in a factory in China paying some guy 10 cents an hour to rush thousands of shirts off the assembly lines, etc

The largest problem facing a Capunism country is that with the increase in business from production of the communist workforce you have an emerging economy powered by a vast number of participants. When they suck us dry from all our buying power (which they're purposely doing by buying billions in bonds from the us treasury) while at the same time purposely undervaluing their own currency, their will come a time when they won't really need us anymore because they'll be economically self-sufficient and the cut off in production will happen or atleast become much more costly.

People don't realize that shit can get third world real quick.


What we do in the dark will come to the light some day.

HANZO
12-21-2010, 06:14 PM
UK - in Iraq, NATO
Romania, in Iraq, in NATO
Denmark, in Iraq, in NATO
Bulgaria, in Iraq, in NATO
Albania, in Iraq, in NATO
Czech Republic, in Iraq, in NATO
Lithuania, in Iraq, in NATO
Estonia
Hungary
Spain
Portugal
Italy
The Netherlands

Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, Lithuania, Estonia joined NATO in 2004 a year after the War started.

could it be that entering the war would be a way to get into NATO. just like Greece and Turkey were inducted back in the 50's after they joined in the Korean war. a favour for a favour.

Yeah and EVERY SINGLE MUSLIM wants Israel gone so what is your point?

not really.

Well that settles it! CASE CLOSED! Han's friend is an Iraqi kurd and misses his buddy Saddam and hates the new government in Iraq. That's all the evidence and proof I needed! LOL

most Iraqi's hate the new government. Iraq's a fucking mess do you think Iraqi's are fucking happy cause thats what fox news is telling you? ppl are getting kidnapped for ransom regularly. Shia kill the Sunni and Sunni the Shia on a regular basis. the country has entirely split into 3. it took 9 months for the government to form after elections. Clerics and warlords are the ones who really control the country. its no different from a medieval feudal kingdom.

all this a product of Democracy and Freedom.

Iraq held an auction for some of its oil fields. Highest bidders won. Many oil companies from all around the world got to participate. How.....democratic! Awwww geez and I thought America could have just confiscated all the oil for ourselves. Oh well, democracy and free market wins again.


Why couldnt Iraq run its own oil fields? they did it during Saddam times why not now. they got the capabilities to do it and unlike Saddam they could use oil money to rebuild Iraq instead of building palaces.

but hey it was the Iraqi government decision to have western oil companies bid for the oil fields right? i mean after all a puppet government is considered legit as any other.

Okay okay. Let's pretend, like you guys do, that this is just a mass plot by the Republican GOP to steal oil. Then why did your LIBERAL heroes say these things and then FLIP FLOP when it was convenient for their campaign runs?

it was a liberal left-wing government under Tony Blair which went to war here in England. The conservatives heavily opposed it as you would expect from an opposition party.

it shouldnt be about being a liberal or conservative.

the truth is there were no WMD's, there were no links with Al-Queda. there was nothing. Iraq under Saddam was not a threat to anyone. There is no solid evidence that Saddam was preparing for something either.

so the story is a country was invaded for no valid reason. under international law thats illegal. War crimes were committed, Iraqi's were tortured by coalition forces, chemical weapons were used by the coalition forces. the democracy and freedom brought into Iraq was worse than Saddam's dictatorship.

Visionz
12-23-2010, 02:11 AM
Then your elected congressional representative should have had the competency to recognize evidence from bullshit. Unfortunately, the majority of congress did believe the case that the administration made and the war went on.



I like the Constitution as it originally stood and with the amendments added on. As long as your idea of going another direction does not involve discarding our American Constitution, then I am welcome to the new ideas that the upcoming generation may be able to offer.



And here we are at the point that every thread in KTL forum eventually comes to. I've overstayed my welcome and pushed too many buttons.

Visionz, I respect you and took the time to read what you offered to the discussion and retract any cheap shots that I embedded in my posts. Thanks for the heated debate and see you guys later. I am not being smug. I mean this sincerely. Good night and Merry Christmas!

Look at the comments I refute. With such assurdness you pronounce that Bush battled the liberals and liberal media with his stance on Iraq. The reality differs from either your perception or ypur ability to recall or maybe both. This was just an example but you should check those preconcieved notions you like to blanket the world with. The human experience is far more complex than your generalizations give it credit for. I recall you celebrated coporations acting like psychopaths like it was a good thing. You should come to realize that this directly conflicts with your spirtual proclamations. Seperation is an illusion.

LoTec
12-23-2010, 03:14 PM
I thought that I would add something to this discussion but Visionz and Han yall covered everything nicely. Sence-A better luck next time.

pro.Graveface
12-23-2010, 04:56 PM
startrek

TheBoarzHeadBoy
12-24-2010, 11:45 PM
Though we don't agree on everything Sense-A...

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