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View Full Version : Why do so many of the best producers work with not-so-great Emcees?


Ghost In The 'Lac
04-13-2011, 12:35 AM
man it just goes on.

Pete Rock and CL Smooth

So CL isnt bad rapper, just never great. My favorite Pete album is Soul Survivor. Pete coulda smashed way harder in his peak with harder rhymers than CL.

Jay Dilla >>> Slum Village

As good as Fantastic Vol2 is, its a lot better as an insturmental LP, imo. Slum Village just bring nothing to Dillas beats, and are basically pretty boring.

Preem >>> Guru/Group Home

Again, not to hate on Guru, but I dont think many people would even put him in the top 30 all time, wheareas a lot of Preems beats he was rapping on, put Preem in the top 5 region. Its not a coincidence so many of Preems' most memorable songs are not Gangstarr.

Timbaland >>>> Magoo

Dont need to elaborate.

9th Prince >>> Little Brother

Pooh and Phonte personally bore me, again, 9th's Prince's best songs are not featuring these guys (Threat and Crooklyn Dodgers 3 examples), its not a coincidence.

Dr Sleepwalker
04-13-2011, 01:01 AM
you mean 9th Wonder

Ghost In The 'Lac
04-13-2011, 01:04 AM
lol

Sunz of Man
04-13-2011, 01:06 AM
I'll agree with Group Home, but no way would I ever consider Guru a "not-so-great emcee"

Ghost In The 'Lac
04-13-2011, 01:26 AM
You'd put Guru in with the greats?

BudMonsta
04-13-2011, 02:07 AM
You'd put Guru in with the greats?

Guru's top 15 all time for me sometimes in my top 10, how is he not a great emcee? Dude's a legend.



You could easily flip this, why do the best emcees work with not so great producers?

Who knows?

Sunz of Man
04-13-2011, 02:08 AM
You'd put Guru in with the greats?

I'd put him top 25 MC's but that's probably just my personal preference. I donno his monotone rap style fit perfectly over premiers beats to me.

And I agree with the CL smooth, definitely not a weak MC, but I would have loved to see those classic Pete Rock beats being blessed by a more talented mc

claaa7
04-13-2011, 02:22 AM
man it just goes on.

Pete Rock and CL Smooth

So CL isnt bad rapper, just never great. My favorite Pete album is Soul Survivor. Pete coulda smashed way harder in his peak with harder rhymers than CL.

i think CL is good, he has a unique voice but yeah it's a bit of a mismatch considering Pete Rock is a top 3 producer who ever lived lol. but they met long before they got signed, i think they went to the same high school and Pete loved CL's voice - he said that he never had heard anyone with such a unique voice as CL so he wanted to form a duo with him. Still i think "Mecca / Soul Brother" and "Main Ingredient" isn't ALL Pete Rock, CL got something special, i like him despite him being under Pete's level. If u would've sayed DEDA when talking about Pete then that would made more sense

Jay Dilla >>> Slum Village

As good as Fantastic Vol2 is, its a lot better as an insturmental LP, imo. Slum Village just bring nothing to Dillas beats, and are basically pretty boring.

nah i disagree with you, none of Slum are fantastic MC's far from it, but i think they are mad entertaining to listen to. even "Fantastic 1" which has no guests at all and more basic Dilla beats are great. but once again they was friends FOREVER, it wasn't some audition where Baatin was looking for a producer and an MC. nah they came up together so of course they gonna make music together. and they did some incredible music when it was just the three of them, the founding members.


Preem >>> Guru/Group Home

Again, not to hate on Guru, but I dont think many people would even put him in the top 30 all time, wheareas a lot of Preems beats he was rapping on, put Preem in the top 5 region. Its not a coincidence so many of Preems' most memorable songs are not Gangstarr.

hell nah, Guru is one of my favorite MC's and he sounds GREAT over DJ Premier beats especially (altho his two firts "Jazzmatazz" LPs are incredible too). he isn't one of the most lyrical but he's so much better than say someone like Royce Da 5'9". i see you didn't mention Jeru whch is good cuz Jeru is a great MC but i think Guru is better. he spits 100% from the heart most of the time, something the majority of "dope" emcees lack - rapping with heart is extremely important. i grew up with Gang Starr's music and it's almost like Guru became a guidance in my life, he was so easy to realte to becase you almost felt like he was conversating with you in many of his rhymes, etc, etc.

as for Group Home, yeah i agree, they were not good at all but at the same time it was GURU's fam who hung around him, Premier, Jeru and everyonne at the time. they were real street tho and DJ Premier provided them with some of his best beats, and those beats were not something he would've given for example Jeru because they were designed for Group Home so if there wasn't a G.H. we might never have heard Preem's best production work (or one of them at least). i agree those cats were pretty wack then but what's amazing is that Premier managed to make a CLASSIC by producing two "can't rap" guys. how many producers are able to do that?


Timbaland >>>> Magoo

Dont need to elaborate.

9th Prince >>> Little Brother

Pooh and Phonte personally bore me, again, 9th's Prince's best songs are not featuring these guys (Threat and Crooklyn Dodgers 3 examples), its not a coincidence.

hahaha agree 100% with Timbaland/Mr. Magoo and never really checked out Lil Brother like i should (i heard "The Listening" and about half "The Minstrel Show"

Ghost In The 'Lac
04-13-2011, 02:26 AM
how can Pete Rock be top 3 when Dre, RZA, and Premo exist?

theheavens
04-13-2011, 02:37 AM
Pete Rock is definitely in the top 3 with Premo and RZA (exclude Dre)

CL Smooth is a good-to-great MC, but sure, I guess Pete could've worked with better MCs. still, can't imagine anyone else rapping over T.R.O.Y.

as for Guru.......ONE OF THE BEST MCS EVER! I'm not saying that cuz he's dead either. Gang Starr as a whole is in the top 10 for me. Guru was a great MC in his own right. he spit knowledge like no one else at that time. sometimes I'd rather listen to him than KRS or Rakim.

netscape check two
04-13-2011, 03:48 AM
whats wrong with Magoo?

food for thought
04-13-2011, 04:09 AM
Preem >>> Guru/Group Home

Again, not to hate on Guru, but I dont think many people would even put him in the top 30 all time, wheareas a lot of Preems beats he was rapping on, put Preem in the top 5 region. Its not a coincidence so many of Preems' most memorable songs are not Gangstarr.


http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/1087/raeface.png

muscularghandi
04-13-2011, 04:22 AM
Its not a coincidence so many of Preems' most memorable songs are not Gangstarr.

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/1087/raeface.png


Couldn't agree more.

We can also agree to disagree on CL, but everyone else is dead on. You see these great producers do a couple tracks with great MC's but never full projects, maybe it's scheduling... must be hard to get to artists "in demand" to be in the same place for a long period of time.

Longbongcilvaringz
04-13-2011, 05:07 AM
I agree with all your points.

Guru is placed by most people in a top 20 though, even before he died.

I just can't really seriously consider putting him my top 30 or 40 or 50 even.

He's just fairly average a lot of the time.

MaskedAvenger
04-13-2011, 05:14 AM
Oh man, Guru not one of the greats? Guru and Preem were a perfect match. I disagree with just about all your points except for Magoo but I could care less coz I ain't never liked timbaland anyway.

Razorsharp
04-13-2011, 05:29 AM
i disagree with the guru statement... he fits perfectly as stated above, and also kept it real til he met solar -__-... and pete & cl go together well, but i agree i do get bored at times when its solely CL...

snowgoons & the random people they get =P... anything not AOTP... jus sounds weird on their beats, ruste juxx is good on there tho

Taskmaster2112
04-13-2011, 09:32 AM
I gotta disagree with a few of those points too. First off, I think CL Smooth is one of the most underrated MCs. He's got a great voice, good flow, good lyrics, and he fits perfectly over Pete Rock beats. I never get tired of listening to "Mecca and the Soul Brother" and "The Main Ingredient". I think people would regard him higher if he had gotten a solo album out between '96-'98 with some dope 90s producers after he split with Pete Rock.

Also, Guru is dope as hell and one of the greats. In terms of some of the weaker MCs on here, I think that a lot of the ones you listed might not be the best MCs, but they sounded great over the producers you mentioned (SV sounds great on Dilla beats, Phonte and Big Pooh sounded great over the 9th Wonder beats on the first two LB albums, and even though they aren't too lyrical, I thought Group Home sounded pretty good over Preem's beats on their first album).

corky831
04-13-2011, 09:48 AM
they work with lesser known MC's so that their production can shine that much more....and they can have more of the spotlight......or they figured theyd work with some of their boys and figured they can help them out and put them on the map bc of their great production....

JakobR
04-13-2011, 11:05 AM
Maybe because they personally think the particular rapper is dope and worth working with? It is not all black and white, people have different tastes and I guess producers who have worked at their craft for years, maybe decades, have a much different vision than the average hip hop listener.

If I was producer, a goat or not, I would probably still work with a lot of different type of artists in order to reach new musical areas.

J-DON
04-13-2011, 12:24 PM
Id have to say that this is more of a problem recently.

Madlib works with lame MC's for the most part

Alchemist could be making classic tunes with greats instead of rapping on his own shit and fucking with Ev and Twins and P.

Timbaland worked with alot of dope cats for singles but always put on some bullshit rappers.

Sid Roams needs to fuck with more than just Mobb dudes

Dilla, as mentioned above could have worked with way iller dudes in his time

but whatever theyre beats were good enough that you could have a 4 or 3 star emcee on top and it would still bang

fatboybrandon
04-13-2011, 12:28 PM
Maybe because they personally think the particular rapper is dope and worth working with?

Sounds like a good answer to me.

Speaking of Guru, there's a tribute coming up. April 21, will take place at New York City's Le Poisson Rouge venue. Tickets to the tribute are $20 in advance and $25 at the door.

http://www.theboombox.com/2011/03/27/guru-tribute-planned-on-anniversary-of-his-death/

Fatal Guillotine
04-13-2011, 12:32 PM
dont know

9th has done the same with MURS as well as David Banner

RynMur
04-13-2011, 01:14 PM
I'll agree with Group Home, but no way would I ever consider Guru a "not-so-great emcee"

no doubt. guru was the perfect match for premo.

Ghost In The 'Lac
04-13-2011, 02:01 PM
OK put it how you want with Guru,

The point stays

Preems best joints have come with Jay Z, MOP, KRS, Nas, Jeru, Biggie, Mos Def, Fat Joe, Common...........

You could easily make a top 10, 15, 20 Preem joints list and not put a Gangstarr track on there (not saying I would, but...)

In no order my 25 favorite preem tracks:

6th Sense (Common)
D'Evils (Jay)
In my lifetime intro/a million and one questions (Jay)
Hand It Down (Bleek and Jay)
Face off 2k1 (MOP)
Follow Instructions (MOP)
On The Front Line (MOP)
NY State Of Mind (Nas)
Memory Lane (Nas)
Represent (Nas)
I Gave You Power (Nas)
NY State of Mind ptII (Nas)
Nas Is Like (Nas)
2nd Childhood (Nas)
Friend Or Foe (Jay)
Friend or Foe 98 (Jay)
Come Clean (Jeru)
10 Crack Commandments (biggie)
Kick In The Door (Biggie)
Unbelievable (Biggie)
Ya Playin Yaself (Jeru)
Rappers R N Danja (KRS)
MC Act Like They Dont Know (KRS)
Mathematics (Mos Def)
That White (Fat Joe)


I just think other rappers bring more out of Preems beats than Guru ever did.

buckshotstheone
04-13-2011, 02:47 PM
without reading anything other than the title i will answer the question --->

money.

they get a paycheck from these wack MCs so they are more than happy to sell them throwaway beats for paper. it's their job to sell beats so why not make the money even if it's from a wack MC.

I know a kid who paid $500 for a Beatminerz throwaway, in 2011, like anyone gives a shit about a Beatminerz beat in 2011 on an album from an unknown not-good MC from New Hampshire, but Mr. Walt got $500 now didn't he?

JASPER BEARDLY
04-13-2011, 05:33 PM
haha how the fuck can anyone say anything bad about guru? moment of truth is a fucking classic straight through. above the clouds, JFK 2 LAX, make em pay, know my steez, work, itz a set up, moment of truth, the militia, royalty, betrayal

thats one fucking disk. check the technique, boulevard with afu ra, etc etc etc etc


gangstarr one of the illest groups of all time and it was 2 fucking ppl

BudMonsta
04-13-2011, 05:50 PM
Preems best joints have come from who you mentioned and Gang Starr tracks, in fact I like some Gang Starr tracks more then those you've mentioned. You trippin, honestly.

Ghost In The 'Lac
04-14-2011, 12:45 AM
I'm making a point, as an example, how many of Preem best songs came with other rappers.

Honestly, I'm not sure how many of those 25 i'd swap out for a Gangstarr track in a real list. Maybe like 4 or 5. I just personally prefer other rappers on Preem beats.

Inspektah Meth-Tical
04-14-2011, 12:53 AM
Nas and Primo wudda been better.

logitrax
04-14-2011, 12:22 PM
as for Group Home, yeah i agree, they were not good at all...i agree those cats were pretty wack then but what's amazing is that Premier managed to make a CLASSIC by producing two "can't rap" guys.

What the fuck kind of blasphemy is this?! And from claaa7 no less?!?!?!?! "Livin' Proof" is an amazing album, and don't be fooled into thinking that it's all because of the soundscape Premier provided, no matter how incredible it was; Dap and Melachi were great and tackled real subject matter quite often.

As for everything that followed...like every other rapper out there, when paired with the right producers, the songs were right and when not, not. So their career was certainly unbalanced, but "wack"..."can't rap"...for real?

Robert
04-14-2011, 01:11 PM
Premo also has made beats for Christina Aguilera. You think he's doing that because he gives a shit about how good the artist is?

Case in point, this is one of Premo's best beats of late.
G5U5svtdYHk
You don't need to speak French to judge that delivery.....

JakobR
04-14-2011, 01:25 PM
Cus Aguilera is such a bad singer....

WooHa
04-15-2011, 12:49 PM
how can Pete Rock be top 3 when Dre, RZA, and Premo exist?

So easy