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LHX
11-02-2005, 02:46 PM
peace yall

the last lie thread i started got some nice feedback
so
lemme pop my latest observation off here

i have worked out 5 phases of the 'lie' from the perspective of how the 'lie' evolves


for the record - what i have trouble with is trying to figure out how/why we started lying in the first place

anybody who read the other thread will note that i view the lie as a serious technological advancement

what i am trying to isolate here is how we go from a scenario where nobody lies to a scenario (like the current one) where lies are common

- stage 1 -
a person lies by accident

- stage 2 -
a person lies to see if he could repeat what he did when he lied by accident

- stage 3 -
a person tests out the effects of lies
- now that he is able to repeat it - he tries lying under different circumstances to see what happens

- stage 4 -
a person lies to use it to his competitive advantage
- now that he knows that by telling lies he can make his environment react to his actions - he uses this ability for personal gain
- this can also be seen as an effort to control his environment
- it can prolly be said that this is the stage we are currently experiencing right now

- stage 5 -
a person learns to use the ability to lie responsibly
- after failing to be able to control his environment - the person learns the pitfalls of telling lies
- though lies may be useful - they must be used responsibly or else you bring a universe of hurt on your sorry ass




please also note:
there is a very close relationship between a 'lie' and a 'word' itself
a word is NOT the actual thing it describes
it is simply a WORD

which is why there is the warning not to worship words and images (false idols)

peace
hit me up with some feedback

or criticize
or spark up some associated god/devil debate

i dedicate this post to yacub or as i like to call him - 'dad'

one love

Ayatollah Prolific
11-02-2005, 04:31 PM
Cave Man saw another cave man get eaten by a lion. Caveman thought, "That isn't cool." Same Caveman was chased by a lion the next day. Cave man turned around and pointed behind the lion and said, "Look, there's a Zebra!" (or since he's a cave man, he said, "ahhh uhh luuuooo raaa!!!!") Lion looks around. Caveman runs away during the distraction.

One caveman thinks, I wonder if that will work on another caveman?

The story of the lie. I don't think an explanation needs to be made as to why lies have evolved to the extent it is a commonplace.

LHX
11-02-2005, 04:37 PM
but

what reason would a cave man have to try it on another cave man?

Ayatollah Prolific
11-02-2005, 04:52 PM
To gain an advantage on his fellow man. He is doing it to ensure a more comfortable well being or life. Prevent competition for food, woman, and the like.

LHX
11-02-2005, 04:57 PM
To gain an advantage on his fellow man. He is doing it to ensure a more comfortable well being or life. Prevent competition for food, woman, and the like.
comfort?

what the fuck is a 'comfort'?

go outside and ask a squirrel what it thinks about comfort

Ayatollah Prolific
11-02-2005, 05:00 PM
Squirrell do the same thing... You don't think a big squirrel beats up a little squirrel so that he can lounge in his tree nest?

Os3y3ris
11-02-2005, 05:35 PM
The squirell LOVES comfort. You think they don't fight?

Aqueous Moon
11-02-2005, 05:56 PM
Peace

I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time following the logic behind comparing animals to humans in this discussion. I just don't see how it applies to the point at hand....


LHX, I put up a long post called Yacub and the letter Z a while ago...( and you did let me know that it was too long...lol)

But, I just keep thinking about it while I'm reading your thread. You are not saying the same thing that I was - at all. They just seem to relate to each other to me. Anyway, in order to examine the lie, you have to examine the truth.

Now, I'm go try to get a lil mathematical (bear with me)....A lie is only useful if it serves the truth. Otherwise, it is meaning less and of no consequence.

For example : If I said that 2+2 = 3, you would say no the truth is that 2+2 = 4.

If I were to continue to disagree with you, you could easily prove that I was lying
by demon-strating the difference between 3 and 4.

For example : You would give me two rocks, then give me two more and show me that the sum is not 3 it is 4.

That is how the lie serves the truth. So, To put it in social perspective like you have, I would have to say that the first lie came out of the need for the truth to be served (or, proven in a - mathematical sense).

In my understanding, this is where Yacub comes in. I want to make it clear that having this need does not mean that lies are essential to human survival, instead it proves that TRUTH is essential to human survival.

Peace
(and I promise, I was trying to keep it short...lol)

Woozer
11-02-2005, 06:03 PM
im on stage 5. im a very good liar, i can look you straight in the eyes and lie to you. I dont do it often and i dont like lying to people but if push comes to shove and you dont matter to me, im gonna lie to you

JASPER
11-02-2005, 07:06 PM
I believe you.

LHX
11-02-2005, 07:48 PM
Squirrell do the same thing... You don't think a big squirrel beats up a little squirrel so that he can lounge in his tree nest?
lounging?

nooooooooooooooo way

LHX
11-02-2005, 07:48 PM
The squirell LOVES comfort. You think they don't fight?
i dont see how sentence 1 relates to sentence 2

kids love candy
the white sox are the champs

?

JASPER
11-02-2005, 07:50 PM
Your blatant lies don't fool anyone.

LHX
11-02-2005, 07:52 PM
Peace

I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time following the logic behind comparing animals to humans in this discussion. I just don't see how it applies to the point at hand....


LHX, I put up a long post called Yacub and the letter Z a while ago...( and you did let me know that it was too long...lol)

But, I just keep thinking about it while I'm reading your thread. You are not saying the same thing that I was - at all. They just seem to relate to each other to me. Anyway, in order to examine the lie, you have to examine the truth.

Now, I'm go try to get a lil mathematical (bear with me)....A lie is only useful if it serves the truth. Otherwise, it is meaning less and of no consequence.

For example : If I said that 2+2 = 3, you would say no the truth is that 2+2 =4.

If I were to continue to disagree with you, you could easily prove that I was lying
by demon-stratingthe difference between 3 and 4.

For example : You would give me two rocks, then give me two more and show me that the sum is not 3 it is 4.

That is how the lie serves the truth. So, To put it in social perspective like you have, I would have to say that the first lie came out of the need for the truth to be served (or, proven in a - mathematical sense).

In my understanding, this is where Yacub comes in. I want to make it clear that having this need does not mean that lies are essential to human survival, instead it proves that TRUTH is essential to human survival.

Peace
(and I promise, I was trying to keep it short...lol)
this is the kind of stuff i am talking about

this isnt deception

this is straight up the ability to say that 2 + 2 = 3

animals do not do that kind of stuff



DECEPTION comes in when we try to take something like that and then start USING it

LHX
11-02-2005, 07:53 PM
Your blatant lies don't fool anyone.
except for the fact that i am actually Jasper1134s alternate account

JASPER
11-02-2005, 07:55 PM
You're not talking to myself...

Or am I?

I'm sort of confused right now, let me wander around my room and ponder for a few minutes. I'll come back when I have more information.

LHX
11-02-2005, 07:56 PM
it sucks when alternate accounts that you create try and take over your other accounts

doesnt it?

JASPER
11-02-2005, 07:58 PM
I feel violated and molested. Buccaneer 0ner

LHX
11-02-2005, 08:07 PM
maybe you have been

Shemsu Elohim
11-02-2005, 09:12 PM
lol

Shemsu Elohim
11-02-2005, 09:35 PM
The lie probably started when people began to rely on the outer world as the main source for their information.

With the Greeks.

Os3y3ris
11-02-2005, 10:04 PM
LHX, you're dead wrong. Animals don't decieve eachother? Not only do they do so all the time, but many are built to decieve. The ones that can't do so through either cunning or design die. Look at the chameleon. Look at the stripes on a tiger. Look at how a cats fur puffs up when its angry. Look at how an alligator swims so low in the water. Animals dont decieve? LOL

The lie probably started when people began to rely on the outer world as the main source for their information.

With the Greeks.

Right, because in Africa they walked around with their eyes closed and their ears shut meditating on useless shit. Right. Thats how they built Timbuktu and the pyramids.

Shemsu Elohim
11-02-2005, 10:23 PM
Let me try this again.


The lie probably started when people began to rely on the outer world as the main source for their information.


With the Greeks.

Os3y3ris
11-02-2005, 10:25 PM
So Africans just kinda spontaneously generated info? About WHAT? HOW? Thats nonsensical.

Prince Rai
11-03-2005, 09:35 AM
Peace


For example : If I said that 2+2 = 3, you would say no the truth is that 2+2 = 4.

If I were to continue to disagree with you, you could easily prove that I was lying
by demon-strating the difference between 3 and 4.

For example : You would give me two rocks, then give me two more and show me that the sum is not 3 it is 4.

That is how the lie serves the truth. So, To put it in social perspective like you have, I would have to say that the first lie came out of the need for the truth to be served (or, proven in a - mathematical sense).



i would like to agree with this.


on another note...

the WORD "LIE" is again just a shortened explanation of what a lie can be!
that is why LHX would put down 5 scenarios of the word lie.

this suggets at least that a lie has vast meanings and situaions whereby it is used.

but lie is the natural opposite of truth.

disagree...? well then that is because one would view the word lie in the eye of what you have been taught! feel me? lie is a huuuge word with imense consequences!

LHX
11-03-2005, 09:41 AM
LHX, you're dead wrong. Animals don't decieve eachother? Not only do they do so all the time, but many are built to decieve. The ones that can't do so through either cunning or design die. Look at the chameleon. Look at the stripes on a tiger. Look at how a cats fur puffs up when its angry. Look at how an alligator swims so low in the water. Animals dont decieve? LOL

[/color]

Right, because in Africa they walked around with their eyes closed and their ears shut meditating on useless shit. Right. Thats how they built Timbuktu and the pyramids.
come on O

push it a step further

a chameleon does not tell another chameleon that he saw the third chameleon plotting on his food stash in order to spread division among the chameleons

stop talking that shit man

is it called deception when somebody gets goose bumps when it is cold?
no

i am talking about deception when you tell kids that if they dont behave then the creature under the bed is gonna get them

quit talking that animal shit

that is separate from what i am talking about and something tells me you know that

Ayatollah Prolific
11-03-2005, 09:54 AM
No... I think the "Animal sh#t" is a very significant point here. I made a comparison to animals, in order to emphasis that the "lie" is part of a natural instinct or method utilized in the natural world (by man and animal). Mr. LHX seems to be over mystifying the word"lie" or the idea of the "lie." But I prefer simplification. Of course it's usage has evolved to some extent, but so does spots on a moths wings. We purposely lie or deceive each other and ourselves similiar to an animal deceiving another. To ensure comforts of living... a bigger bite of meat, a hot female, etc.

It is not an exclusive phenomenon only to human beings. Law is... religion and art is. There truly isn't much sophistication to lying (as many organisms do it). No wonder it is frowned upon in transcendental schools of thought. If we are to live as above animals, and or special deities, we must cease to act like them.

qspeechc
11-03-2005, 11:32 AM
obviusly deception can increase reproductive fitness of a being, and so being favoured by natural selection.

LHX
11-03-2005, 12:13 PM
No... I think the "Animal sh#t" is a very significant point here. I made a comparison to animals, in order to emphasis that the "lie" is part of a natural instinct or method utilized in the natural world (by man and animal). Mr. LHX seems to be over mystifying the word"lie" or the idea of the "lie." But I prefer simplification. Of course it's usage has evolved to some extent, but so does spots on a moths wings. We purposely lie or deceive each other and ourselves similiar to an animal deceiving another. To ensure comforts of living... a bigger bite of meat, a hot female, etc.

It is not an exclusive phenomenon only to human beings. Law is... religion and art is. There truly isn't much sophistication to lying (as many organisms do it). No wonder it is frowned upon in transcendental schools of thought. If we are to live as above animals, and or special deities, we must cease to act like them.
i disagree for the following reasons

1.
law
+
religion
+
art
=
all based on lying

2.
animals striving for 'comforts of living' rather than survival is lost on me

if anything is a human phenomenon - comforts of living are

3.
in most cases - animals are much more in tune with the essence than humans by virtue of not having been tainted by lies
but
on the other hand
they do not have the capacity to spread trick knowledge the same way humans do


peace

and apparently i will now be referred to as mr. LHX

i am out to go catch some moths and read the spots on their wings so i know who to worship

Ayatollah Prolific
11-03-2005, 12:28 PM
LHX:

"1. law + religion + art = all based on lying"

I don't think you can say something like that, without leaving us an explanation.

"2. animals striving for 'comforts of living' rather than survival is lost on me
if anything is a human phenomenon - comforts of living are"

So you don't believe in the whole Squirrel analogy? Let me ask you this question....

If a lion has a fresh zebra recently preyed and a fresh gazelle recently preyed, lying in front of it... which carcass will the lion eat first? Why? If animals only live for merely surviving, then the lions choice of his meal would be as random as a coin. Why pick a mate, when you can just procreate with any mate.... Why do whales flip seals several times in the air, before actually eating them? Does this aggression not give them some comfort?

Why do elephants mourn their dead by using their trunks to touch skelatal remains of their loved ones? Is not mourning your dead, consoling, or comforting?

LHX
11-03-2005, 12:45 PM
LHX:

"1. law + religion + art = all based on lying"

I don't think you can say something like that, without leaving us an explanation.

"2. animals striving for 'comforts of living' rather than survival is lost on me
if anything is a human phenomenon - comforts of living are"

So you don't believe in the whole Squirrel analogy? Let me ask you this question....

If a lion has a fresh zebra recently preyed and a fresh gazelle recently preyed, lying in front of it... which carcass will the lion eat first? Why? If animals only live for merely surviving, then the lions choice of his meal would be as random as a coin. Why pick a mate, when you can just procreate with any mate.... Why do whales flip seals several times in the air, before actually eating them? Does this aggression not give them some comfort?

Why do elephants mourn their dead by using their trunks to touch skelatal remains of their loved ones? Is not mourning your dead, consoling, or comforting?
sorry dude

thats my bad

i have some threads from a while back where i was working out what exactly a lie is

and basically
if you want to get to the root of it
every word is a lie because it is NOT the truth itself
but
a representation of the truth

and
if words are spoken in the context of being true - then this is a fallacy

that being said

art - it is a REPRESENTATION of something
it is misleading
a picture of the sun is not the sun

law - it is mans attempt at INTERPETING his (allahs) environment
but
it is not the actual environment - it is merely mans interpretation of it - and cannot be viewed as being true

religion - much the same as law



my hunch is that the lion devours both the zebra and the gazelle
the senses of the lion would likely lead it to devour whichever one meets his nutritional needs most first
if there is composite differences between the two (which there prolly is) - the lion will eat whichever one it needs most



there is likely a reason for your whale and elephant examples as well
but
it is difficult to escape the disney effect of things and not to attribute human qualities to animals rather than being able to notice how complicated humans have made their lives

many of the things that we do routinely and think 'for no reason' are actually done for a very specific reason

Ayatollah Prolific
11-03-2005, 12:55 PM
damn^^^^^ That's a pretty good response... I'm going to have to think about this a little.

Prince Rai
11-03-2005, 02:24 PM
nicely said LHX...

its truth.. word is word...

its the same as when we have sumin in our head and we cnt get to explain it in words... words limit truth and thus it either become half truth or absolute misinterpretation.

LHX
11-03-2005, 02:26 PM
nicely said LHX...

its truth.. word is word...

its the same as when we have sumin in our head and we cnt get to explain it in words... words limit truth and thus it either become half truth or absolute misinterpretation.
my friends

welcome to the grey area

no longer hell
but
not quite heaven yet

Prince Rai
11-03-2005, 02:32 PM
good always to be in the grey area, unless these words do not entail the whole story!


we gta get to black n white... to see extremes and then undertsand the fusion!


lol just freestylin in the pool of infinite knowledge open to all 24/7 entry fee zero

LHX
11-03-2005, 02:58 PM
good always to be in the grey area, unless these words do not entail the whole story!


we gta get to black n white... to see extremes and then undertsand the fusion!


lol just freestylin in the pool of infinite knowledge open to all 24/7 entry fee zero
no way dude

if anybody wants to pay

pm me and i will send you my address to make you 'official' for a small fee

Ayatollah Prolific
11-03-2005, 03:29 PM
sorry dude

thats my bad

i have some threads from a while back where i was working out what exactly a lie is

and basically
if you want to get to the root of it
every word is a lie because it is NOT the truth itself
but
a representation of the truth

and
if words are spoken in the context of being true - then this is a fallacy

that being said

art - it is a REPRESENTATION of something
it is misleading
a picture of the sun is not the sun

law - it is mans attempt at INTERPETING his (allahs) environment
but
it is not the actual environment - it is merely mans interpretation of it - and cannot be viewed as being true

religion - much the same as law



my hunch is that the lion devours both the zebra and the gazelle
the senses of the lion would likely lead it to devour whichever one meets his nutritional needs most first
if there is composite differences between the two (which there prolly is) - the lion will eat whichever one it needs most



there is likely a reason for your whale and elephant examples as well
but
it is difficult to escape the disney effect of things and not to attribute human qualities to animals rather than being able to notice how complicated humans have made their lives

many of the things that we do routinely and think 'for no reason' are actually done for a very specific reason
OK.... Here we go

"art - it is a REPRESENTATION of something
it is misleading a picture of the sun is not the sun"

Who ever told you that art needed to be representational. That is a very extreme view. There is a style of art called Trump d'oil which is an illusion in paint. But this is barely scratching the surface of what art can be. However, expressionism, impressionism, realism, renaissance, Islamic calligraphy... All of these styles were never intended to lie to the viewer. It is intended to visual manifest life, beauty, emotion, etc.

A true artist will always acknowledge that art is a subjective science, that can be different for each viewer. It can also inspire people in different ways. I (a painter myself) never paint a sun, to make a sun... There always an underlying conceptual route to the painting.

Your interpretation of Law and religion is somewhat of an extreme as well. I would not interpret it as a "lie." per say, because I assume a lie is an intentional untruth. I think law and religion is peoples interpretation of the worl around them. There is nothing false about that. It may be wrong, but it only becomes a lie when one can prove it is false... or prove that there was intentional falsefication. Absent that, it is intended to creat order.

Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English lige, lie, from Old English lyge; akin to Old High German lugI, Old English lEogan to lie
1 a : an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker to be untrue with intent to deceive b : an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker
2 : something that misleads or deceives
3 : a charge of lying

As indicated above, it seems inherent that decpetion would be involved in the lie. I think this decpetion or lying is used by the natural world. By human beings intentionally refraining from lying, they are delineating themselves from other animals. This is the reason why children lie. They lie, because they don't know of ethics at such an early age.

As for your lion theory. It sounds like you are speculating. Haven't you ever been told that Lions don't like to eat humans unless they're extremely hungry. Well there you have it... They have a preference for taste. I would assume that this means they would pick whatever taste better (I think the Zebra)... Thus they are making a decision which gives them pleasure to life or comfort to life. They picked what tastes good and gave them more satisfaction.

Last but not least... If a human is starving and has a choice between a cockroach which is loaded with protein and carbs, or 2 heads of lettuce, they'll pick the lettuce. Funny thing is, lettuce won't provide you nourishment. But the human will pick it because it tastes better.

A lie, is a falsehood which is used to intentionally deceive. Caveman has used it since the ice ages... we still use it. Now that we have more knowledge, we have more oppurtunities to lie.

Prince Rai
11-03-2005, 03:46 PM
no way dude

if anybody wants to pay

pm me and i will send you my address to make you 'official' for a small fee
man im skint... i need some money 2!!

aii how about 50/50 from the profits?

Aqueous Moon
11-03-2005, 04:51 PM
i would like to agree with this.


on another note...

the WORD "LIE" is again just a shortened explanation of what a lie can be!
that is why LHX would put down 5 scenarios of the word lie.

this suggets at least that a lie has vast meanings and situaions whereby it is used.

but lie is the natural opposite of truth.

disagree...? well then that is because one would view the word lie in the eye of what you have been taught! feel me? lie is a huuuge word with imense consequences!
Peace

Iam statring to feel the same loss of logic on this, "a word is a lie" kinda thing that I felt on the animal comparisons. How could you ever examine the lie if you don't have truthfull words to describe it?

If that is really how you see things, then in deed everything is meaningless. This whole forum, this thread, and this post have boiled down to semantics. Like Bill Clinton and his ridiculous talk, yes, let's spend valuable building time talking about what the word "is" is..... No, please, let's not.

I don't know if lie is the natural opposite of truth....I don't think truth needs that kind of balance, because truth is the foundation of everything....Truth encompasses lies.

If the knowledge of truth is the foundation, then the lie is the covering of that whole foundation. Creating a trick - foundation or trick - knowledge.

The important thing to see is the truth that is served by the lie. What does this lie show and how can I prove what the truth is?

LHX, what are your conclusions about the first lie ever told ? Did you find any in your first thread?

Peace

LHX
11-03-2005, 06:20 PM
If that is really how you see things, then in deed everything is meaningless.

this may be the key issue to deal with

keep in mind that nobody WANTS it to be meaningless

but
that it is in fact meaningless from some perspectives



it is the fine line between the following dilemma:
in order for life to HAVE meaning - it must include death
if you are searching for eternal life - then you must accept having no meaning



i will address the rest of the posts later
but
i gotta bounce

Aqueous Moon
11-03-2005, 07:13 PM
this may be the key issue to deal with

keep in mind that nobody WANTS it to be meaningless

but
that it is in fact meaningless from some perspectives



it is the fine line between the following dilemma:
in order for life to HAVE meaning - it must include death
if you are searching for eternal life - then you must accept having no meaning



i will address the rest of the posts later
but
i gotta bounce

Peace

Yesssss, that is what I am saying. You have equated life to truth and death to lies. That is fine...until you say that life (truth) has no meaning if it doesn't include death (lies).

Because, then that analogy becomes superceded by the reality of mathematics.

2 + 2 = 4 It doesn't mattter if someone believes something different. They believe a lie and the truth is univerally proven. Their lie serves to verify the truth for you, but it does not give it it's value.

So, if you are alive then the foundation of your existence is life. If life is truth, then the lie of death is a trick.

When you can show and prove this ,in your exisitence, then you have achieved eternal life.

Peace

LHX
11-03-2005, 09:13 PM
Peace

Yesssss, that is what I am saying. You have equated life to truth and death to lies. That is fine...until you say that life (truth) has no meaning if it doesn't include death (lies).

Because, then that analogy becomes superceded by the reality of mathematics.

2 + 2 = 4 It doesn't mattter if someone believes something different. They believe a lie and the truth is univerally proven. Their lie serves to verify the truth for you, but it does not give it it's value.

So, if you are alive then the foundation of your existence is life. If life is truth, then the lie of death is a trick.

When you can show and prove this ,in your exisitence, then you have achieved eternal life.

Peace
this is true

but
in the process you lose meaning

Os3y3ris
11-03-2005, 11:18 PM
that is separate from what i am talking about and something tells me you know that
YOU brought up the squirrells, trying to paint lies as unnatural.

animals striving for 'comforts of living' rather than survival is lost on me

if anything is a human phenomenon - comforts of living are
This couldn't be more wrong. I have two cats. If I bring a box, a bag, a basket or something else into the house, I'm gonna find a cat in it for no other reason that its comfort. In a few days, there will be a huge brawl in that general area and the winning cat will leave while the other stays. Not exactly an epic battle for survival.

Face it, lying is a natural function. Its a human extension of deception. With the same zeal that we build, we destroy, making the deception of our enemies key. Thats our nature. We do things as far as it can be done.

Civilison
11-04-2005, 12:35 AM
It is ironic that 6 billion people experience "truth" all at the very same time yet each and every one of us has a different description of what it might be.

It is actually funny and so simple that "truth" is what you everyday, 24/7, feel as yourself.

Expressed through every single being in the universe, common as grass and easy as walking.

The problem is that we take it for granted soooooo extremely much.

The last thing that fish find is the water they swim in. When we look for it, we don't find it. When we step back and stop looking for it, it automatically comes to us.

To be straight, you must first be crooked. To become clean, you must first get dirty. To get home you must first leave home. To get "truth" you must first be "lied to". In these terms, these concepts do not exist. They are there to get the job done.

True wisdom seems the most foolish and true guidence seems misleading.

The universe would not exist without correspondences.

I don't know how to explain it, look inside you and see for yourself. That is the only place you will find real proof!

PEACE

Ayatollah Prolific
11-04-2005, 08:55 AM
That is how the lie serves the truth. So, To put it in social perspective like you have, I would have to say that the first lie came out of the need for the truth to be served (or, proven in a - mathematical sense).

In my understanding, this is where Yacub comes in. I want to make it clear that having this need does not mean that lies are essential to human survival, instead it proves that TRUTH is essential to human survival.



I think you are incorrect. Doesn't mean you are lying. It just means you are wrong. Now, by (I think you called it) "Demon" I will show you why you are wrong... not lying, but wrong. One I show you how this is wrong, it refines our truth or leads us to the way of truth. (This is where I agree with you) But I think one must clearly distinguish falsehoods from lies. The latter definitely needs deception and intention. This is where semantics... or the meaning of words become important. Mr. LHX's first 4 stages clearly seem to be used by the natural world, Animal and man. The lie or deception is a normally used tactic to gain in survival and comfort. Now, when one lies for the "greater good", that is one that is exclusively human. But again... the words are improper and/or otherwise to simple. Specifically "greater good"

An example:

The greater good = a religion which would make mankind comforted in his own mortality. But a human may intentionally deceive himself into believing in a spook in the sky. This, in a sense, is a tactic neceesitated to "comfort" him or keep him surviving and thriving. IS THAT THE GREATER GOOD? No... it is still evolution.

LHX
11-04-2005, 10:23 AM
yall are bringing up some fascinating points

we have brought up a lot of different things in this thread

it is difficult to come to agreement these days with access to so much information



even tho you are all wrong
(just kidding)



for real tho

to fully explore where we have gone
we would have to resolve
the 'words' issue
the animal issue
the meaning issue
and then we could address the lie issue
maybe


is it possible for two people to come to an agreement?
where do we start?

JASPER
11-04-2005, 10:54 AM
Some people. Some people.

It seems not everyone sees the difference between a lie and a trick. Animals are tricksters, people are liars.

Ayatollah Prolific
11-04-2005, 11:05 AM
Some people. Some people.

It seems not everyone sees the difference between a lie and a trick. Animals are tricksters, people are liars.

explain the difference?

Os3y3ris
11-04-2005, 11:11 AM
Some tricks are lies. All lies are tricks. Merely an extension of what's seen naturally.

Ayatollah Prolific
11-04-2005, 11:18 AM
I would agree with that. But what tricks are not lies?

Os3y3ris
11-04-2005, 11:28 AM
A lot of trickery involves the tricked party making false assumptions as opposed to the tricking party presenting false information. A chess sacrifice for example. No false info there. He sees what you do. Its his falut he lost the game chasing down a knight or something.

Civilison
11-04-2005, 12:06 PM
Peace, Peace,

Just to add on.

The fundamental cause of human disagreement.

We are physically born onto the earth as an infant. At this time we are completely ego-less, pure and "innocent" (as many say). I like to refer to it as expression of consciousness.

Look at any new born being - a baby, a puppy, a cat, a lion or tiger cub.

In terms of humans, as infants we do not know, we do not need to know and we don't even care to know.

As we enter the world, we start to pick up qualities from the external world. My name is this, I do this job, I went to that school and call myself this etc...

In other words, we put on ego.

In my view, the ego is an information system that informs us of who we think we are and what we think the world is.

We don't look at the world from the perspective of the pure self that was manifested in babyhood, but our perception of the world is filtered through the body and the ego system.

Once we develop spiritually, we start to notice that in order to reach "enlightement", we need to strip off this ego system. Meaning, we need to unlearn all those things we learned in our life that inform us of who we think we are.

At this point, we are learning to unlearn to become as pure and DIRECT as an infant. In that case, we connect with what we all call "ourselves".

So, to sum up.

The universe makes us travel in loops. We enter the world, we learn and then we come to the realization that we need to unlearn. Learn to unlearn to truly learn.

The root of disagreement then is our affinity towards withdrawing information from the external world. The ego system that informs us and cuts off the direct relationship we have with the universe.

If in case of conflict, if we were to look insede ourselves, we would find a common "truth" that we all call and feel all the time as "ourselves".

Again, these are just words. It is your own experience that gives the proof.

PEACE

Ayatollah Prolific
11-04-2005, 12:06 PM
OK Osirus. Without diverging from this thread too much... Let me get your opinion on these examples.

If a cheetah begins a chase... but stops so that he can see which gazelle can't run. The gazelles assume that he is chasing but he isn't. He then attacks when they do not suspect.

That seems like it would be trickery. But is it also a lie, because the cheetah intended the fake chase?

If the Japanese stage fake attacks numerous times in the Pacific... But America assumes that they are faking it... Only Japan eventually attacks pearl harbor catching them at their weakness.

A spider constructs a web in the air, and relys on a fake illusion of open space, when it is merely a trap.

A man can fake that he is an innocent human being, but rapes a girl when the girl will actually trust him. A trap... or an illusion so that the prey will fall into the trap.

Ayatollah Prolific
11-04-2005, 12:15 PM
Once we develop spiritually, we start to notice that in order to reach "enlightement", we need to strip off this ego system. Meaning, we need to unlearn all those things we learned in our life that inform us of who we think we are.

At this point, we are learning to unlearn to become as pure and DIRECT as an infant. In that case, we connect with what we all call "ourselves".

PEACE
I agree with this very much. What I'm interested in, in your post that is:

If one unlearns or sheds his ego, what realm is he or she in? you say "ourselves", which I would assume means we understand our similliarities as human...or is it ourselves in that we a a member of the natural world with other oganisms and we serve a function... Or if I may include ideas in the "divine" thread, do we find we are members of God's plan. And in the process of unlearning, we are closer to god's divine plane.

TeknicelStylez
11-04-2005, 12:47 PM
OK Osirus. Without diverging from this thread too much... Let me get your opinion on these examples.

If a cheetah begins a chase... but stops so that he can see which gazelle can't run. The gazelles assume that he is chasing but he isn't. He then attacks when they do not suspect.Yes, but is this not just a predator instinct to aid the cheetah in his hunt and insure that he does not go hungry?

A spider constructs a web in the air, and relys on a fake illusion of open space, when it is merely a trap.
Once again, is this not just a tool the spider uses in order to catch insects for his natural diet?

And for Oseyris for the thing about your cats, you cannot really point that out as a clear statement for the simple fact that your cats are "Domesticated". Meaning you took them out of their natural habitat and placed them in a home enviroment and added man made objects. Replaced their natural instincts to hunt and do other things to survive, by feeding them on a daily basis, to the point where if they were to run away they probably wouldn't live past a week. In turn they focus on other things, playing, fighting, causing mischief (cat owners know what I mean), and developing attachments to human companions. All things which are very irregular for wild animals, which makes them obsolete as a basis in an argument about animal instincts.

Aqueous Moon
11-04-2005, 02:01 PM
I think you are incorrect. Doesn't mean you are lying. It just means you are wrong. Now, by (I think you called it) "Demon" I will show you why you are wrong... not lying, but wrong. One I show you how this is wrong, it refines our truth or leads us to the way of truth. (This is where I agree with you) But I think one must clearly distinguish falsehoods from lies. The latter definitely needs deception and intention. This is where semantics... or the meaning of words become important. Mr. LHX's first 4 stages clearly seem to be used by the natural world, Animal and man. The lie or deception is a normally used tactic to gain in survival and comfort. Now, when one lies for the "greater good", that is one that is exclusively human. But again... the words are improper and/or otherwise to simple. Specifically "greater good"

An example:

The greater good = a religion which would make mankind comforted in his own mortality. But a human may intentionally deceive himself into believing in a spook in the sky. This, in a sense, is a tactic neceesitated to "comfort" him or keep him surviving and thriving. IS THAT THE GREATER GOOD? No... it is still evolution.Peace

If I am wrong then I am lying. Intentions are of no importance. They don't make the lie less of a lie. Intentions don't define the lie or excuse the lie. So, if you say I am wrong, you say I am lying. No need for semantics. Humans know how to "get the point". Animals do not, they have no mind capable of distinguishing the literal from the figuarative.

When I used the word "demon - strating". I was comparing it to the act of straightening out the demon (meaning devil or lie). We demon - straight by showing and proving the truth.

The only real, literal, figurative, and substantial "greater good" is the truth. No one can lie for the truth. Because in no way can a lie benefit the truth, a lie can and will prove the truth, but only if that truth has already been manifested or made known.

Therefore, there is no "evolution" concerning the "greater good" of humans. However, there are revolutions which allow the truth to be continuously proven. Truth cannot be evolved because that would suggest that the truth wasn't the whole truth in the first place. Which, cannot be possible due to the nature of supreme universal mathematics.

Peace

LHX
11-04-2005, 02:36 PM
the discussion that has come up in this thread has been dominating my thoughts over the past day

for the record
i have to admit my ignorance on a couple of things

1. contrary to what i may have said - i dont actually know fully what goes through the heads of animals
2. even tho i am still working on it 24 hours a day - i do not know exactly how this planet has developed into the place it currently is - at least not well enough to describe it using words

but
i am on the case
and i am a lot closer in understanding than i was when i started


i can say this for certain:

WORDS are a function of the EYE
this means - we have WORDS because we have EYES
words are our tools for coming together
words lose meaning when we do not have agreement
for this reason
it can be said that a word which cannot be demonstrated with the eye and agreed upon is not an actual word
and
for the purposes of discussion
something which cannot be demonstrated does not actually exist

peace

Prince Rai
11-04-2005, 03:03 PM
Peace, Peace,

Just to add on.

The fundamental cause of human disagreement.

We are physically born onto the earth as an infant. At this time we are completely ego-less, pure and "innocent" (as many say). I like to refer to it as expression of consciousness.

Look at any new born being - a baby, a puppy, a cat, a lion or tiger cub.

In terms of humans, as infants we do not know, we do not need to know and we don't even care to know.

As we enter the world, we start to pick up qualities from the external world. My name is this, I do this job, I went to that school and call myself this etc...

In other words, we put on ego.

In my view, the ego is an information system that informs us of who we think we are and what we think the world is.

We don't look at the world from the perspective of the pure self that was manifested in babyhood, but our perception of the world is filtered through the body and the ego system.

Once we develop spiritually, we start to notice that in order to reach "enlightement", we need to strip off this ego system. Meaning, we need to unlearn all those things we learned in our life that inform us of who we think we are.

At this point, we are learning to unlearn to become as pure and DIRECT as an infant. In that case, we connect with what we all call "ourselves".

So, to sum up.

The universe makes us travel in loops. We enter the world, we learn and then we come to the realization that we need to unlearn. Learn to unlearn to truly learn.

The root of disagreement then is our affinity towards withdrawing information from the external world. The ego system that informs us and cuts off the direct relationship we have with the universe.

If in case of conflict, if we were to look insede ourselves, we would find a common "truth" that we all call and feel all the time as "ourselves".

Again, these are just words. It is your own experience that gives the proof.

PEACE
i like this post! very thoughtful and nicely put down!

Prince Rai
11-04-2005, 03:13 PM
as to continue..

i agree... this thread has raised numerous issues and we have at least agreed that the word lie entails manyyyyy paths!

i believe the way to pursue the meaning of lie.. is its root which is "word"

lie is a word and as word is made to try and represent what you want to say.... it is difficult to explain the word lie in few lines.


what is word? merely a sound of the mouth? hmmm... that has consequences... because is a sound a perfect representation of what we see?
is what we see reality?? is it an illusion? is the sky blue because it is or because our eyes perceive it to be http://www.why-is-the-sky-blue.tv/why-is-the-sky-blue.htm

so when we say the sky is blue... is blue the truth? a lie? a half answer?

clearly "word" is a confusing thing!

and we use words to build apparent truths and lies


of course i can ramble on to suggest all words are lies of half truths..

but then again... we have an armoury of words to get close enough to explain deeper what we need to say! feel me?

peace and blessings

LHX
11-04-2005, 03:31 PM
it seems that the truth is that we all want to align on the 'good' side or the 'winning' side


and even tho we all have the same goal

we do not know how to approach this common goal in a discussion type situation



it is too much of a sacrifice (for the ego) to suspend itself for a while and let another point of view try and manifest itself

nobody can really be blamed for this - it truly is a physically uncomfortable process to really allow yourself to absorb new information


the topics we are discussing here are heavy
the funny thing is
we are using the same format and medium that other people use to discuss hollywood gossip and masturbation tips


when you learn something new
it means that the place you live in has just changed
and that means that you have to change the way you approach it

most people do not enjoy this process

which is prolly why a lot of threads in this forum turn into nonsense

when threatened with facing a new reality - people will do almost anything to reinforce the reality patterns that they are living with and feel comfortable with (even tho it may be leading them to an agonizing suffocating demise)

Prince Rai
11-04-2005, 03:38 PM
lol ma man lHX is right!

yes.. philosophy isnt a topic where we get pleasure all the time... unless we truly love "sophie" and understand the consequnce of the truth on our physical attributes.

but i enjoy to see and get disprooved <is dat a word?

i learn better then!

LHX
11-04-2005, 03:40 PM
fuck

i love getting schooled

it hurts like a bitch


but
i am always better off after



the last time i got roasted was by 7el7 and wooly and those dudes
but they arent posting these days

which sucks ass

Ronin
11-04-2005, 03:42 PM
u lie for personal gain, simple as that

or gain in general

no one EVER has never told a lie

mans deceptive as fuck

Prince Rai
11-04-2005, 03:42 PM
yeh i know

i remember those days.. they still on methical arent they.. at least wooly is right?


though they had their views... they stalled when they had been misproven though.. thats sad 2!

but ah well... progress can be a slow process as we have seen with ourselves.. lol though i go quiker :P (i thought dat through dt sounded dirty)

LHX
11-04-2005, 03:44 PM
u lie for personal gain, simple as that

or gain in general

no one EVER has never told a lie

mans deceptive as fuck
i have stopped lying


(dont believe anything i say
ever)

LHX
11-04-2005, 03:44 PM
the above post was all false

LHX
11-04-2005, 03:45 PM
yeh i know

i remember those days.. they still on methical arent they.. at least wooly is right?


though they had their views... they stalled when they had been misproven though.. thats sad 2!

but ah well... progress can be a slow process as we have seen with ourselves.. lol though i go quiker :P (i thought dat through dt sounded dirty)
i thought methical shut down the forums

i had some good builds with wooly

but
i am white

Aqueous Moon
11-04-2005, 03:47 PM
as to continue..

i agree... this thread has raised numerous issues and we have at least agreed that the word lie entails manyyyyy paths!

i believe the way to pursue the meaning of lie.. is its root which is "word"

lie is a word and as word is made to try and represent what you want to say.... it is difficult to explain the word lie in few lines.


what is word? merely a sound of the mouth? hmmm... that has consequences... because is a sound a perfect representation of what we see?
is what we see reality?? is it an illusion? is the sky blue because it is or because our eyes perceive it to be http://www.why-is-the-sky-blue.tv/why-is-the-sky-blue.htm

so when we say the sky is blue... is blue the truth? a lie? a half answer?

clearly "word" is a confusing thing!

and we use words to build apparent truths and lies


of course i can ramble on to suggest all words are lies of half truths..

but then again... we have an armoury of words to get close enough to explain deeper what we need to say! feel me?

peace and blessings
Peace

With all love and respect and in the pusuit of understanding I am replying to your post.

I still don't see why you say "word" is confusing...a word is a word.

The sky is blue - that is the truth. We all can see it.

The molecules, atoms, particles, etc.. in the atmosphere bounce off light and water and our eyes see a blue color.

Doesn't using the words the sky is blue make the sentence symmetrical, simple, and universal to the truth of the atmosphere ? Aren't you still saying the same thing ?

How does using words in this way compare to a lie or confusion ?

Peace

LHX
11-04-2005, 03:48 PM
Peace

With all love and respect and in the pusuit of understanding I am replying to your post.

I still don't see why you say "word" is confusing...a word is a word.

The sky is blue - that is the truth. We all can see it.

The molecules, atoms, particles, etc.. in the atmosphere bounce off light and water and our eyes see a blue color.

Doesn't using the words the sky is blue make the sentence symmetrical, simple, and universal to the truth of the atmosphere ? Aren't you still saying the same thing ?

How does using words in this way compare to a lie or confusion ?

Peace
define 'blue'

it gets messy

Prince Rai
11-04-2005, 03:53 PM
Peace

With all love and respect and in the pusuit of understanding I am replying to your post.

I still don't see why you say "word" is confusing...a word is a word.

The sky is blue - that is the truth. We all can see it.

The molecules, atoms, particles, etc.. in the atmosphere bounce off light and water and our eyes see a blue color.

Doesn't using the words the sky is blue make the sentence symmetrical, simple, and universal to the truth of the atmosphere ? Aren't you still saying the same thing ?

How does using words in this way compare to a lie or confusion ?

Peace
yes and also...

if i gave you more powerful eyes and you saw a different colour... is the term blue still apparent? is it a lie? half truth? deception?


yes word is word but why is word what it is.. who made it... shouldnt we all agree to a word by common will? messy is freedom < apparently

Ayatollah Prolific
11-04-2005, 03:53 PM
Doesn't using the words the sky is blue make the sentence symmetrical, simple, and universal to the truth of the atmosphere ? Aren't you still saying the same thing ?

How does using words in this way compare to a lie or confusion ?

Peace
I think what is meant is the actual word blue, as in "b-l-u-e" may not fully describe the color that we see. Princerai said that sounds can not truely describe what one see. I think LHX said "word" is what we see.

How it relates to a lie. The word "lie" is confusing to define by the mere fact that word is difficult to define, let alone the word lie. I think I'm going crasy.

Aqueous Moon
11-04-2005, 03:55 PM
peace

damn LHX...you the king of semantics ...you should run for president
I would vote for you too. Cause I know how to speak your language....lol

LHX
11-04-2005, 03:55 PM
yo man

and thats the tricky part



if you CALL yourself a false prophet
then what does that make you?
a true prophet?

LHX
11-04-2005, 03:56 PM
peace

damn LHX...you the king of semantics ...you should run for president
I would vote you too. Cause I know how to speak your language....lol
truth is

semantics almost killed me
my only defense was to learn how it worked

Prince Rai
11-04-2005, 03:59 PM
oh yehh...

:P

Aqueous Moon
11-04-2005, 04:01 PM
Peace

I did incoporate supreme universal mathematics to illustrate my points on this topic.

Math is always solid...no semantics can seep into it

LHX
11-04-2005, 05:03 PM
i had a comeback for your math deal

but
i cant remember it now

Aqueous Moon
11-05-2005, 01:35 PM
truth is

semantics almost killed me
my only defense was to learn how it worked
Peace

LHX, what did you mean ?...you serious?

LHX
11-05-2005, 02:28 PM
Peace

LHX, what did you mean ?...you serious?
i am not sure

LHX
04-04-2006, 01:37 PM
bumped for the current discussion in the 'melanin' thread

Aqua Luna
04-05-2006, 06:23 PM
Word...seeing this thread was a walk down memeory lane.

very good builds in here...

LHX
07-21-2006, 08:48 AM
bump

Aqueous Moon
07-21-2006, 11:41 AM
MATHEMATICS - The study of the measurement, properties, and relationships of quantities and sets, using numbers and symbols.

Math is truth. And, it is inclusive of symbols and words. Alphabets make up words, they are symbols.

TRUTH - Conformity to fact or actuality.

We conform to facts by speaking wise words, and by having right -eous ways and actions.

Math establishes fact by proving it's own exsistance.
The Truth is Right and Exact as a Square Angle of 90 degrees.

You know that your angle is right when it is measured, because it shows and proves the square which is true foundation.

We measure righteousness by our knowledge of fact, reason, and truth.
It is true that every square angle has 90 degrees. Truth is math.

Aqueous Moon
07-21-2006, 11:58 AM
There may be some difference between lies and trick knowledge.

Trick knowledge requires that you establish a false foundation of reality, an illusion. This can only be done by mixing truth with false-hood. Then you are able to enforce lies.

Lie - to keep oneself or one's plans hidden. Lies are total falsehood.

The lies are the tools you use to keep the trick-knowledge hidden. Because once we can see through the illusion, we can no longer be ruled by lies.

june181972
07-21-2006, 12:28 PM
LHX,

If I may jump threads also
'Dying by the hands of treachery'

I gave up on my quote from Sun Tzu:
"All war is based on deception"
It was not central to my main point


Think of the statement on an Absolute level

In a struggle or a competition between opposing sides
You would stand zero chance if your opponent knew the absolute truth about you

If you have access to your opponent's knowledge, any weapon, or tactic he uses can easily be thwarted

If you can cause your opponent to be ignorant to anything applicable to the competition, that is deception.

Only seeing the back of the cards in a card game
Not revealing what letters you have in a game of scrabble

Taking cover is deception
Keeping your hands up and your feet moving in a fight is deception

Any form of the truth withheld from your opponent is deception
If you are not attempting to decieve, you are not attempting to war

Aqua Luna
07-21-2006, 12:31 PM
not true good maam not true at all, lot of people here feel we see through the lies that are fed to us but yet we are ruled by them everyday.

If they really do realize, then they are only ruled because they allow themselves to be ruled.

V4D3R
07-21-2006, 12:37 PM
You got to wonder now, who didnt want us to lie- really? When time began - for us - when we were created - given knowledge. Who didn't want us to lie?

Aqua Luna
07-21-2006, 12:49 PM
You got to wonder now, who didnt want us to lie- really? When time began - for us - when we were created - given knowledge. Who didn't want us to lie?

We created ourselves and we earned our knowledge by looking, listening, observing and respecting.

When the time came to enforce lies we used those times to show and prove our knowledge of truth.

Noone wanted to lie. There is a time and a place for everything.