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THE W
03-25-2006, 11:12 AM
what is the purpose of currency?


why do we pay for things?


what are we actaully paying for?



build..

Claustrofobic
03-25-2006, 11:26 AM
Based on western economical facts, money is an official accepted trading good that you earn by labor and spend it on activities produced by others.

I see it myself as the devil, it's slowly setting the end of the world in motion by producing feelings like hate and jealousy.

Just imagine a world without money, instead we would all be captivated by spirituality and really making the most of ours lifes, everything would be free and shared.....this is only a nice dream I guess

THE W
03-25-2006, 11:37 AM
Based on western economical facts, money is an official accepted trading good that you earn by labor and spend it on activities produced by others.

this is a pretty good definition. but what is the purpose? why is it needed?

LHX
03-25-2006, 11:38 AM
the funnyiest thing about money

is that the actual physical money has no value at all



money requires agreement by the people involved


basically
if you decide that a 20 dollar bill is worthless
then technically
it is worthless


and if more people begin to agree with you
then there will be less pressure on you to pretend that a 20 dollar bill is actually worth anything


the purpose of money is to provide an equivalency when trading becomes impractical

i have 20 bushels of tomatoes
you have 3 donkeys
he has 50 dozen eggs

we stopped being able to live together
so
now we have to trade to meet our individual needs

slowly money is born


but
due to the fact that money is such an abstract concept

it has been manipulated be snake muthafuckas


transaction fees
interest
middle men

all tools of the devil

Claustrofobic
03-25-2006, 11:39 AM
Thats a question I'm unable to answer

yet

LHX
03-25-2006, 11:42 AM
money is not needed

and it would be cool if this is one of the agreements that this forum would come to

that would be progressive

Claustrofobic
03-25-2006, 11:46 AM
Hey im 100% with you on that one LHX, its what ive been saying for the last year now

THE W
03-25-2006, 11:50 AM
no it really isnt needed at all. but in this twisted world system you cant live without it. basic fundamentals of living(food, clothing, shelter) are kept from people who dont have money.

i'd say the purpose of money is to regulate unlimited but in exahaustible resources. unfortunately its gone beyond that to being a source of power and influence. money makes the world go around...but it doesnt make the earth go around.

THE W
03-25-2006, 12:02 PM
the funnyiest thing about money

is that the actual physical money has no value at all



money requires agreement by the people involved


basically
if you decide that a 20 dollar bill is worthless
then technically
it is worthless

this is very much the truth. how do you think this came about?


and if more people begin to agree with you
then there will be less pressure on you to pretend that a 20 dollar bill is actually worth anything


the purpose of money is to provide an equivalency when trading becomes impractical

why did trading become impractical?

i have 20 bushels of tomatoes
you have 3 donkeys
he has 50 dozen eggs

we stopped being able to live together
so
now we have to trade to meet our individual needs

slowly money is born


but
due to the fact that money is such an abstract concept

it has been manipulated be snake muthafuckas


transaction fees
interest
middle men

all tools of the devil

its about power, a few people controlling everyone.




what are some things we can do to combat this evil system?

snapple
03-25-2006, 12:12 PM
what the fuck are you guys talking about...money is liquid it has backing people aren't "pretending" it's worth something....it is.....

money IS needed, this isn't fantasy i live in the real world, and in new york if you don't have money you WILL NOT SURVIVE. money is a necessity for shelter clothing food etc....to do anything it requires paper. you can't survive without money, therefor it is NEEDED. you don't think so? then send me all of your paper i can PM you my adress

THE W
03-25-2006, 12:17 PM
the cream, basically a way to put all the worlds resources into the hands of a few without actually necesserely having to own anything.
back then u could have 1 person with a spice and one person with some leather, they would trade. now you have 1 man with some spice, 1 man with some leather, they buy from each other and a portion of that goes to a 3rd party without doing anything, thus that third man has his hands in every pocket without doing any work.
now what you have is the american dollar, is loosing it's value, so in order to keep hands in the pocket, you creat one world currency.
unnatural progression to control.
exactly, this is what im talking about.

we all have a purpose in life, something that we will provide for mankind. we should not continue to feed into the money system. if we have the ability to provide a good or service, we should give it out freely.

i think people go out and try to be certain things for the wrong reason. people want to make it rich so they can sit on their ass and do nothing when they should be trying to connect with the thing that they were created to do so they can provide for mankind and find pure joy in it.

as the saying goes: "find out what you love to do and you wont work a day in your life".

but the money system of the world brings out a different saying: "you gotta do what you gotta do".

the chase for money keeps people from truly discovering themselves and we have all sold out to the ratrace for income and we have lost our humanity.

snapple
03-25-2006, 12:22 PM
^^so anyone who has money hasn't discoverd themselves....riiighhttt....

THE W
03-25-2006, 12:22 PM
what the fuck are you guys talking about...money is liquid it has backing people aren't "pretending" it's worth something....it is.....

money IS needed, this isn't fantasy i live in the real world, and in new york if you don't have money you WILL NOT SURVIVE. money is a necessity for shelter clothing food etc....to do anything it requires paper. you can't survive without money, therefor it is NEEDED. you don't think so? then send me all of your paper i can PM you my adress
in reality it is not needed, but mankind has decided to believe the lie that it is needed and has built a world around that lie.

each one of us has a good or service that we can provide and we dont need to recieve any money for providing it. but because of the thirst for power and control(redundant?) money was instituted.

THE W
03-25-2006, 12:29 PM
^^so anyone who has money hasn't discoverd themselves....riiighhttt....
they havent discovered their obligation to humanity which goes with them finding themselves. if there were people in your community who could provide everyone in the community with everything you needed why would you need money. and the fact is there are people who can do this but they are blinded by the system.

and there are many people stuck in jobs they hate but are making good money. this breeds bitter and selfish people.

Aqua Luna
03-25-2006, 12:29 PM
I think it's the current form of money that causes so much trouble.

There has always been a lot of value in natural currencies like gold and silver.

We have been fooled into thinking that the paper money with the pictures are more valuable.

The moors of today have abolished money, they only deal in gold...I think it's a great idea.

WU-KILLAH
03-25-2006, 12:31 PM
The moors of today have abolished money, they only deal in gold...I think it's a great idea.
what would it change to deal with gold instead of paper ?

Aqua Luna
03-25-2006, 12:37 PM
what would it change to deal with gold instead of paper ?


Money is owned and artificialy created.

This creates an inbalance in power.

The ones who create the money have the rest of us in a race to get their money.

Gold belongs to the Earth....take away the power of paper money and then we can free the power of natural currencies.

THE W
03-25-2006, 12:37 PM
what would it change to deal with gold instead of paper ?
exactly, its not about getting rid of paper money, its about getting rid of currency as a whole and going back to people taking care of each other.

when we continue to deal in currency we are allowing the few to control the many.

Aqua Luna
03-25-2006, 12:40 PM
exactly, its not about getting rid of paper money, its about getting rid of currency as a whole and going back to people taking care of each other.

when we continue to deal in currency we are allowing the few to control the many.

I don't think it's realistic to say that all currency is trouble.

Gold is a natural currency and can be traded like food, services...ect.

THE W
03-25-2006, 12:43 PM
I don't think it's realistic to think that all currency is trouble.

Gold is a natural currency and can be traded like food, services...ect.
can we eat gold? can we put gold on our backs to keep us warm? can we live inside gold and be warm and protected from the elements?

do we need gold to make stuff that can do these things.

all we need is each other.

galt john galt
03-25-2006, 12:48 PM
money is and was created as a medium of exchange when bartering got to complicated. money is easy to carry has a fixed value and can be exzchanged for other correncies with a fixed rate.

money is backed by the belief that we trust god with it. the money is fiat backed by those words printed by the treasury and produced by the federal reserve.

we need money no we have skills that we provide in exchange that others provide theirs. the community converges with a single purpose where they each lend a hand and what goods to others in an intra communal life style though not a commune. money begets interst which is tacked on by inflation as to the goods on demand versus those in supply which in turn makes the money devalued. so deflation of money through inflation of people tempered by the interest rates is how we have come to use money as a need.

if people stopped using money where and with what means would they continue their living. where would they go how would they live and wouldn't it take money to be able to live without money? buy a farm raise crops some animals to work or eat supplies themselves take money.

THE W
03-25-2006, 12:54 PM
its not the money that we want or need, its the goods and services.

so who/what makes goods and services? currency or people?

WU-KILLAH
03-25-2006, 01:03 PM
your not gonna trade 2 cows for a frog, but ud trade two cows for a gold necklace or sum nuhmean.

yea but you'll trade the cows for $ no matter if it's only paper, so it has a value, it's a fact.

THE W
03-25-2006, 01:04 PM
you forget in the days of trading that everything that was traded was necesserely a neccesity.
they traded things of fashion, decoration, etc.


who makes the fashion, decorations, etc.? gold or people?

Aqua Luna
03-25-2006, 01:08 PM
its not the money that we want or need, its the goods and services.

so who/what makes goods and services? currency or people?

Everyone is not gonna have a certain good or service to trade at the same time.

For example a person just starting out on his farm/garden, may not be able to produce a lot of tradable foods right away.

Or, a person who has not finished learning his choosen skill, may not be able to offer a service.

In these kind of situations gold would become a viable trading material. It would be useful, and helpful in the proper context.

THE W
03-25-2006, 01:16 PM
we already have people who can do ALL these things and do them well. look around you and see all the goods and services that are available in our world.

what do you guys think would happen if everyone stopped paying for anything?

LHX
03-25-2006, 01:41 PM
we already have people who can do ALL these things and do them well. look around you and see all the goods and services that are available in our world.

what do you guys think would happen if everyone stopped paying for anything?

im agree with dynamite 100 percent on this


i do not agree with having a gold 'currency'

it is unnecessary



there is no need for it

i have never seen a garden demand something in exchange for the vegetables it produces


i am opening a next thread about 'property' in conjunction to this thread

Aqua Luna
03-25-2006, 01:52 PM
im agree with dynamite 100 percent on this


i do not agree with having a gold 'currency'

it is unnecessary



there is no need for it

i have never seen a garden demand something in exchange for the vegetables it produces


i am opening a next thread about 'property' in conjunction to this thread

There doesn't have to be a 'need' for it...cuz it is an organic tradeable valuable substance in the Earth.

You weigh it and it determines it's own value by that alone...

Gold is only corrupted when man attributes a monetary value to it.

LHX
03-25-2006, 01:55 PM
i guess i dont understand the tradeable value of gold

Aqua Luna
03-25-2006, 02:01 PM
i guess i dont understand the tradeable value of gold

I mean, like we need other stuff to build/ maintain a society...

like wood, bricks, steel, etc.

We can't go back to the hunter/gatherer type life..

I sure don't want to live primitive lke that.

So, why would you want to deplete food supplies and human labor/services when it is not absolutely necessary to do so?

This could be where the usefulness of trading gold comes in, IMO.

LHX
03-25-2006, 02:07 PM
I mean, like we need other stuff to build/ maintain a society...

like wood, bricks, steel, etc.

We can't go back to the hunter/gatherer type life..

I sure don't want to live primitive lke that.

So, why would you want to deplete food supplies and human labor/services when it is not absolutely necessary to do so?

This could be where the usefulness of trading gold comes in, IMO.

the only technologies that seem necessary

are irrigation
and structure-building

the ability to irrigate
and the ability to build pyramids -shelter-
would stop you from having to live a primitive life-style

irrigation makes water come to your garden

brown_dogg
03-25-2006, 04:51 PM
we already have people who can do ALL these things and do them well. look around you and see all the goods and services that are available in our world.

what do you guys think would happen if everyone stopped paying for anything?

if everyone stopped paying for anything... then people would quit their jobs right away. the mentality would be "ok if everything's free then i don't need to work to earn a wage anymore, so i'll just chill at home".

THE W
03-25-2006, 05:21 PM
if everyone stopped paying for anything... then people would quit their jobs right away. the mentality would be "ok if everything's free then i don't need to work to earn a wage anymore, so i'll just chill at home".
which would prove how selfish and individualist our society has become and also how badly we have been enslaved by money.

even with that people would do things cuz if people stopped producing neccesary goods and services then humanity would perish.

THE W
03-25-2006, 05:28 PM
I mean, like we need other stuff to build/ maintain a society...

like wood, bricks, steel, etc.

We can't go back to the hunter/gatherer type life..

I sure don't want to live primitive lke that.

So, why would you want to deplete food supplies and human labor/services when it is not absolutely necessary to do so?

This could be where the usefulness of trading gold comes in, IMO.

i still dont see why we need currency for neccesary goods and services to be made.

am i missing something? please point me in the right direction.

hectis
03-25-2006, 05:59 PM
I Imagine There Wuz No Currency Until The First Cities Were Established From That Point There Became Rich And Poor People And From That The Fall Of Mankind Money Has Caused War, Famines, Slavery Etc Money Gives Some People A Feeling Of Power To Some People Money Is God And It Keeps Them Blind If There Wuz No Paper Money It Would Still Be The Same With Any Thing They Would Use Gold. Silver What Ever They Want The World Would Still Be The Same Currency Rules With An Iron Fist Money Is The Main Reason The World Is Like It Is That Is My View Peace

HANZO
03-25-2006, 06:28 PM
money=power
the richest have the most power, this has been since the start of civilization. as mans greed for power grows the more money we want. its just a method of gaining power, if there was no money i can guraantee there would be something similar.

Aqua Luna
03-25-2006, 08:12 PM
i still dont see why we need currency for neccesary goods and services to be made.

am i missing something? please point me in the right direction.

Gold is as much of a currency as any other good or service you can trade with.

It would be impossible to build/maintain a society by only using human labor and goods alone.

What are you gonna do when it's time to build a school building or a road or a park, even?

Let everybody work for 'free' and then trade their labor for food and goods???

That is unrealistic , in my opinion.

THE W
03-25-2006, 08:13 PM
its not about switching currency, its about getting rid of currency altogether. we dont need it.

it would be a very difficult transition because people are too self centered.

Aqua Luna
03-25-2006, 08:18 PM
Wow...I am not saying switch the currency.

I am saying that trading gold is just like trading goods and services.

THE W
03-25-2006, 08:20 PM
Gold is as much of a currency as any other good or service you can trade with.

It would be impossible to build/maintain a society by only using human labor and goods alone.

What are you gonna do when it's time to build a school building or a road or a park, even?

Let everybody work for 'free' and then trade their labor for food and goods???

That is unrealistic , in my opinion.
again i ask you,

who/what makes goods and services? currency or people?

THE W
03-25-2006, 08:24 PM
Wow...I am not saying switch the currency.

I am saying that trading gold is just like trading goods and services.
that last post wasnt responding to yours,

but what i am saying is the only thing we need is each other and currency does not have to be a part of the equation.

THE W
03-25-2006, 08:25 PM
tho people make it that doesnt take away the value of whatever is made, a piece of clothing lined in gold would obviously be more valuable than one made of just cloth.
things have value ONLY when we give them value.

Aqua Luna
03-25-2006, 08:28 PM
Let me back up, real quick.

If I have said that gold is currency, then I mis spoke.

Gold is not currency it is a precious metal that is organically produced by the Earth.

Now, People provide goods and services...but, they will never, ever do so for free.

It is called the law of reciprocity and to try to trade goods/services for especially, human labor just won't work.

Aqua Luna
03-25-2006, 08:31 PM
things have value ONLY when we give them value.

Is your life more valuable than a rock?

Seriously, some things should be more valuable than others...and rightly so.

THE W
03-25-2006, 08:32 PM
even if you take away the money system everything will still have a value, it wont be on the same scale of i have millions and dollars and no one else will have, because if someone has millions of bars of gold you can't eat or wear that, gotta put that gold out into the marke tto get what you need. it's less of a rotating than cash.
NOTHING has value unless we give it value. and the solution isnt to take away all value. its to put value in the right things.

Aqua Luna
03-25-2006, 08:36 PM
that last post wasnt responding to yours,

but what i am saying is the only thing we need is each other and currency does not have to be a part of the equation.

Ok...I see your point.

I was just saying that trading goods and services alone to build/maintain society probally won't work

and that's why I mentioned gold.

THE W
03-25-2006, 08:37 PM
Now, People provide goods and services...but, they will never, ever do so for free.

It is called the law of reciprocity and to try to trade goods/services for especially, human labor just won't work.

they absolutely can and no one has made a sufficient argument for why people cannot.

will we? probably not cuz self centeredness and the thirst for power run deep.

Aqua Luna
03-25-2006, 08:46 PM
they absolutely can and no one has made a sufficient argument for why people cannot.

will we? probably not cuz self centeredness and the thirst for power run deep.

The reason why people won't do it for free is not because they are self centered it is because everyone has to look out for themselves first.

That's survival...if I give you something and get nothing in return, then I will not give to you again.

If I provide a service and then I am not satisfied with the payment/outcome because it is insuffecient to the benifit of my survival then how can I continue to provide it ?

If you need your roof fixed and all u have to trade to me is apples and I already have enough apples...Imma be upset.

If all you have to offer me is the service of cook, or plumbing, and I don't need that then I would be upset.

But, if you had gold then I could then trade that gold for any other kind of good/service that I need.

dif de la rev
03-25-2006, 08:46 PM
living where your values are not misplaced is what is needed. putting more value in things that are material or can be said to have a price for being bought and sold is the equating things that are not relative. people are to busy creating a relavancy for the moment like a ghost chasing a fleeting shadow. the injecting of value into things that are not important to the overall benefit of society are deemed to be regressions to the path of development. people use material items acquired with the prevailing currency as instilling worth in their lives on the same par as people that they interact with.

do you value the moment or the future which holds more rewards as time goes on?

the dog eat dog fray of the capitalistic system where they have people take on the similitudes of rats where they have to acquire to feel warm and not feel uncomfortable around others. people need to not base their lives on the truncated symbols of status and power conveyed through the flash of money and the things it can buy.

each according to his need where his each need is accorded. that way no one can implement a higher value through having a surplus.

THE W
03-25-2006, 09:05 PM
The reason why people won't do it for free is not because they are self centered it is because everyone has to look out for themselves first.

That's survival...if I give you something and get nothing in return, then I will not give to you again.

If I provide a service and then I am not satisfied with the payment/outcome because it is insuffecient to the benifit of my survival then how can I continue to provide it ?

If you need your roof fixed and all u have to trade to me is apples and I already have enough apples...Imma be upset.

If all you have to offer me is the service of cook, or plumbing, and I don't need that then I would be upset.

But, if you had gold then I could then trade that gold for any other kind of good/service that I need.
you just proved my point.

everyone meets everyone's needs based on their ability to provide for everyone's needs. one person cant do everything but everybody can do something. one for all and all for one.

you're still stuck on getting something for something which is what im talking about when being selfish.

you wont have to look out for yourself when the community is providing for your every need. you will then be free to go and provide for others. you dont need currency for that, you just need skilled people.

Aqua Luna
03-25-2006, 09:09 PM
you just proved my point.

everyone meets everyone's needs based on their ability to provide for everyone's needs. one person cant do everything but everybody can do something. one for all and all for one.

you're still stuck on getting something for something which is what im talking about when being selfish.

you wont have to look out for yourself when the community is providing for your every need. you will then be free to go and provide for others.

I don't know what point you are referring to...

If the community is looking out for you then there will still have to be an exchange of giving something and getting something back in return.

THE W
03-25-2006, 09:31 PM
I don't know what point you are referring to...

If the community is looking out for you then there will still have to be an exchange of giving something and getting something back in return.
everyone plays their role in providing for whatever need someone has. when this is done consistantly everybody is taken care of.

Aqua Luna
03-25-2006, 09:34 PM
ok...I don't agree

But

I think it was a good discussion.

THE W
03-25-2006, 09:44 PM
it absolutely was.

LHX
03-25-2006, 10:24 PM
Gold is as much of a currency as any other good or service you can trade with.

It would be impossible to build/maintain a society by only using human labor and goods alone.

What are you gonna do when it's time to build a school building or a road or a park, even?

Let everybody work for 'free' and then trade their labor for food and goods???

That is unrealistic , in my opinion.

i have no problem doing work that needs to be done

constructing a rectangular building is something that never needs to be done

ever


has anybody else noticed that rectangles and squares to not naturally occur on this planet?

there is a reason for that



on a related topic
people need to snap out of this pipelined-sewage-removal dream we are living in

it is hilarious how terrified people are of their own shit

LHX
03-25-2006, 10:27 PM
i am willing to build the next great pyramid for free

as long as nobody blocks me from my garden

and nobody fuckin bothers me to 'work faster'



i will even sign a contract

Aqua Luna
03-25-2006, 10:47 PM
i am willing to build the next great pyramid for free

as long as nobody blocks me from my garden

and nobody fuckin bothers me to 'work faster'



i will even sign a contract

Hmmm

so....who's gonna pay for the building materials ?

Don't even try to buy them with veggies from your garden.

I wouldn't recommend it... :cop: j/k

brown_dogg
03-25-2006, 10:52 PM
you just proved my point.

everyone meets everyone's needs based on their ability to provide for everyone's needs. one person cant do everything but everybody can do something. one for all and all for one.

you're still stuck on getting something for something which is what im talking about when being selfish.

you wont have to look out for yourself when the community is providing for your every need. you will then be free to go and provide for others. you dont need currency for that, you just need skilled people.

this is assuming that the community is filled with completely unselfish ambitions. the only kinds of communities that I can think of that are like this are animal communities. humans are just... to damn human to do that.

THE W
03-25-2006, 10:52 PM
building materials are free of charge.

THE W
03-25-2006, 10:56 PM
this is assuming that the community is filled with completely unselfish ambitions. the only kinds of communities that I can think of that are like this are animal communities. humans are just... to damn human to do that.
it is funny how animals have everything they need and dont have to work for any of it. though the carnivores have to chase down their food but thats way easier then working a miserable 9 to 5 job for food.

i guess intelligence is overrated.

brown_dogg
03-25-2006, 11:02 PM
it is funny how animals have everything they need and dont have to work for any of it. though the carnivores have to chase down their food but thats way easier then working a miserable 9 to 5 job for food.


cuz animals only take what they need. a lion sees a herd of gazelle and attacks. the lion is only gonna kill one gazelle, it's not gonna massacre the whole herd. the lion eats its kill, and it's happy so it goes away. humans, on the other hand, always need more. we need the new mp3 player, or the new tv, or the new car, or the bigger house.

LHX
03-25-2006, 11:05 PM
Hmmm

so....who's gonna pay for the building materials ?

Don't even try to buy them with veggies from your garden.

I wouldn't recommend it... :cop: j/k

building materials are free of charge.

basically

THE W
03-25-2006, 11:21 PM
cuz animals only take what they need. a lion sees a herd of gazelle and attacks. the lion is only gonna kill one gazelle, it's not gonna massacre the whole herd. the lion eats its kill, and it's happy so it goes away. humans, on the other hand, always need more. we need the new mp3 player, or the new tv, or the new car, or the bigger house.
nah the lion wouldnt take out the whole heard cuz he isnt trying to restock on zebra jackets or restock the meat department. the product from those zebras isnt gonna be for just for one person.

when the lion gets hungry again it'll go out and kill another zebra.

brown_dogg
03-25-2006, 11:25 PM
yea. loll i guess intelligence is overrated. but being smarter has allowed us to do better in some cases. but we're human, so we're flawed and in we're out of balance with the things around us, so we fuck up. animals have all the shit in balance.

galt john galt
03-25-2006, 11:43 PM
to buy out this system as that's what looks like dropping off the grid you have to be equiped with either a parachute or net unless you end up hanging yourself.

if supplies are free then skills to be traded like a commodity with some being more favored than others. after the houses are up the bakers butcher and market merchants will be more favored than the carpenters and other journey men. the only society that compares to this view is the amish.

question if there will be no property and no items to be called possession looks like a place where the line is drawn to mark a mine and a yours is the extension of my five senses since anything not my person is a good/item that can be used by the non property possession people.

who has rights to needs more important than the next - who will play judge when issues arise as to the equality of a service for goods , there are will be people who are to judge the worth different then others?

Aqua Luna
03-25-2006, 11:52 PM
to buy out this system as that's what looks like dropping off the grid you have to be equiped with either a parachute or net unless you end up hanging yourself.

if supplies are free then skills to be traded like a commodity with some being more favored than others. after the houses are up the bakers butcher and market merchants will be more favored than the carpenters and other journey men. the only society that compares to this view is the amish.

question if there will be no property and no items to be called possession looks like a place where the line is drawn to mark a mine and a yours is the extension of my five senses since anything not my person is a good/item that can be used by the non property possession people.

who has rights to needs more important than the next - who will play judge when issues arise as to the equality of a service for goods , there are will be people who are to judge the worth different then others?

This is exactly why I suggested a medium that is not perishable nor depended on human labor as a form of trade. Like Gold.

It makes the whole plan a little more viable and sensible.

brown_dogg
03-25-2006, 11:54 PM
wouldn't Gold be just like using currency then?

Aqua Luna
03-26-2006, 12:00 AM
wouldn't Gold be just like using currency then?

No...that's what I have been trying to say.

You cannot equate Gold with currency

Because you will immediatetly see dollars and coins.

Gold doesn't work that way...it's value has been manipulated by man because they applied monetary values to it (dollars and coins).

So, If there weren't any more dollars and coins...we could trade gold just as you would a good/service.

Except, we would then have the option to enhance the fruits of our labor by being able to choose freely what we get for our goods/service.

It won't be evil like money cuz there would be no dollars and coins to taint it's value.

galt john galt
03-26-2006, 12:02 AM
how would a good/service be determined a value to the gold ?

brown_dogg
03-26-2006, 12:05 AM
No...that's what I have been trying to say.

You cannot equate Gold with currency

Because you will immediatetly see dollars and coins.

Gold doesn't work that way...it's value has been manipulated by man because they applied monetary values to it (dollars and coins).

So, If there weren't any more dollars and coins...we could trade gold just as you would a good/service.

Except, we would then have the option to enhance the fruits of our labor by being able to choose freely what we get for our goods/service.

It won't be evil like money cuz there would be no dollars and coins to taint it's value.

and what would someone do once they have ammassed a huge amount of gold. what would you do with all that gold?

THE W
03-26-2006, 12:06 AM
so instead of saying to someone "you having payed your $500 rent" you will say "you havent paid your 100 pounds of gold rent"?

Aqua Luna
03-26-2006, 12:07 AM
how would a good/service be determined a value to the gold ?

By it's weight...which is the beautiful thing about gold.

It is naturally given it's value.

Then the people have to come to some kind of general consensus on how much gold a certain good/service would be worth.

I'm not saying that gold should replace the trading of only goods/services

But, it could be an additional option to it.

Aqua Luna
03-26-2006, 12:08 AM
so instead of saying to someone "you having payed your $500 rent" you will say "you havent paid your 100 pounds of gold rent"?

Whoa...you took a huge leap with this^

That's not what I'm saying at all.

Gold does not equal capitolism.

I think people should never have to pay rent.

brown_dogg
03-26-2006, 12:09 AM
but then you still have people living in houses that are worth 1000 pounds of gold, and people that might be living in houses worth 100 pounds of gold. and people earning different wages and stuff.. it doesn't really solve anything.

Aqua Luna
03-26-2006, 12:11 AM
and what would someone do once they have ammassed a huge amount of gold. what would you do with all that gold?

What would you do with a huge mass of apples or wheat or cotton?

I would satisfy my needs and help who I can with it...the excess would then be pretty much useless.

That's the difference between gold and money.

You can't control others with it if it is used with it's natural value.

galt john galt
03-26-2006, 12:14 AM
how are the goods and services determined to be equal how many chairs does a carpenter make that equals loaves of bread or chicken eggs. you have to exchange goods for services and then goods to goods and services as well then equate it with the gold. will they not say some are more appraise in their skill than others so would gold add leverage to payment thereby giving gold more value as people will/would want to acquire the more precious.

Aqua Luna
03-26-2006, 12:14 AM
but then you still have people living in houses that are worth 1000 pounds of gold, and people that might be living in houses worth 100 pounds of gold. and people earning different wages and stuff.. it doesn't really solve anything.

That's the way money works.

Again...gold doesn't work that way.

Why would you apply a monetary value to a house when no one pays rent.

And to elaborate more...I could say that a certain house is worth 1000 pounds of apples.

Then people would be scrambling to hoard apples.

That is not what I am suggesting.

galt john galt
03-26-2006, 12:19 AM
is not the weight of gold determined by the purity, would that aspect not give added value the purity and not the weight?

Aqua Luna
03-26-2006, 12:19 AM
how are the goods and services determined to be equal how many chairs does a carpenter make that equals loaves of bread or chicken eggs. you have to exchange goods for services and then goods to goods and services as well then equate it with the gold. will they not say some are more appraise in their skill than others so would gold add leverage to payment thereby giving gold more value as people will/would want to acquire the more precious.

no...gold would bring liquidity to this hypothetical society...that's all.

So instead of just being paid in apples or plumbing services, you could have more choices.

Aqua Luna
03-26-2006, 12:22 AM
is not the weight of gold determined by the purity, would that aspect not give added value the purity and not the weight?

There is an established rate of purity that is set for Gold.

If it doesn't meet this standard then it is not gold.

Anything above this standard is great...

Maybe that could be something to consider as long as it is not altered by man, like mixed with some other metal or something.

That would be unacceptable.

brown_dogg
03-26-2006, 12:25 AM
That's the way money works.

Again...gold doesn't work that way.

Why would you apply a monetary value to a house when no one pays rent.

And to elaborate more...I could say that a certain house is worth 1000 pounds of apples.

Then people would be scrambling to hoard apples.

That is not what I am suggesting.

if i built a really big house that took a lot of effort to make, i think i would make it worth more gold. if i built a small house i would make it worth less gold. you can replace "gold" with "money" and that scenario is still the same.

Aqua Luna
03-26-2006, 12:34 AM
Nobody 'buys' houses with gold.

They trade goods and services for gold - and other goods and services.

The value of a house should be in the time and comfort you get from living in it.

It only turns into a capitolistic society if you attribute monetary 'worth' to gold or goods/services.

brown_dogg
03-26-2006, 12:36 AM
i'm not sure i'm fully understanding what you're saying.

ok so if i built my big house, and i wanted to trade it for gold, cuz you said ppl trade goods and services for gold. alright so i want to trade for gold, what would happen?

Aqua Luna
03-26-2006, 12:40 AM
Then nobody would trade with you.

You would be looked at as foolish

Because they could just go build their own house

Because they have been farming and they have a lot of apples to trade for the materials.

brown_dogg
03-26-2006, 12:41 AM
but not everyone knows how to build a house. i'm the community carpenter, they can be the community farmers. it's my special skill, not theirs. then what would happen?

Aqua Luna
03-26-2006, 12:49 AM
Then I would go to the next carpenter who is not so foolish.

Otherwise, if you keep replacing money with gold as if I'm talking about this taking place in the kinda system we are currently in then the discussion doesn't progress.

THE W
03-26-2006, 12:51 AM
lets try an illustration,

you have a community, say a population of 100 people. these people have different things that they do.

farmers
plumber
various skilled tradespeople
chefs
meat packers
welders
fishermen
teachers
doctors
dentists

(this isnt an exhaustive list of occupations)

these people provide their services free of charge. if someone has a tooth ache they will go to the dentist. if the dentist has a leaky roof, he'll go to the roofer. if the roofer needs fruits and veggies, he'll go to the farmer. if the farmer needs a barn built for him, he will go to one of the various skilled tradespeople and they build it for him.

while their is exchange taking place, its more of a circulation of goods and services rather than a trade. its not a system of "give and take" but "give and recieve". this way people can have the confidence to serve others while knowing their needs are met and currency isnt needed.


a society such as this is possible but not very probable as humans are too thirsty for power and status.

Aqua Luna
03-26-2006, 12:56 AM
Ok..so you are saying that it is impossible to incorporate liquidity in the form of gold into a society that you have described with out corrputing said society, right?

I don't agree...but, your point is well taken.

Stalemate again...lol

brown_dogg
03-26-2006, 12:57 AM
to wade. ohhhhhhhhhhh ok shit i get it! haha damn i was way off before. i understand now though. but yea that kind of stuff wouldn't happen with humans.

THE W
03-26-2006, 01:05 AM
Ok..so you are saying that it is impossible to incorporate liquidity in the form of gold into a society that you have described with out corrputing said society, right?

I don't agree...but, your point is well taken.

Stalemate again...lol
i just fail to see why gold needs to be part of the equation.

Aqua Luna
03-26-2006, 04:44 AM
lets try an illustration,

you have a community, say a population of 100 people. these people have different things that they do.

farmers
plumber
various skilled tradespeople
chefs
meat packers
welders
fishermen
teachers
doctors
dentists

(this isnt an exhaustive list of occupations)

these people provide their services free of charge. if someone has a tooth ache they will go to the dentist. if the dentist has a leaky roof, he'll go to the roofer. if the roofer needs fruits and veggies, he'll go to the farmer. if the farmer needs a barn built for him, he will go to one of the various skilled tradespeople and they build it for him.

while their is exchange taking place, its more of a circulation of goods and services rather than a trade. its not a system of "give and take" but "give and recieve". this way people can have the confidence to serve others while knowing their needs are met and currency isnt needed.


a society such as this is possible but not very probable as humans are too thirsty for power and status.

I think having gold to circulate along with the goods/services would make a society like this one way more probable. And actually make it better not worse off.

LORD NOSE
03-26-2006, 05:44 AM
lets try an illustration,

you have a community, say a population of 100 people. these people have different things that they do.

farmers
plumber
various skilled tradespeople
chefs
meat packers
welders
fishermen
teachers
doctors
dentists

(this isnt an exhaustive list of occupations)

these people provide their services free of charge. if someone has a tooth ache they will go to the dentist. if the dentist has a leaky roof, he'll go to the roofer. if the roofer needs fruits and veggies, he'll go to the farmer. if the farmer needs a barn built for him, he will go to one of the various skilled tradespeople and they build it for him.

while their is exchange taking place, its more of a circulation of goods and services rather than a trade. its not a system of "give and take" but "give and recieve". this way people can have the confidence to serve others while knowing their needs are met and currency isnt needed.


a society such as this is possible but not very probable as humans are too thirsty for power and status.

this is how it should be - what prevents man from living like this though ?



just finished reading through this thread and i'm amazed at how a couple of yall don't understand what wade is saying


There is no need for gold,silver,diamonds,money,glass,rocks etc.... to pay for what man can get for himself out of this earth -

wades break down on how it should be is good

but i would add on that everybody should learn everybody elses trade - all of the children should learn medicine,plumbing,agriculture,welding,fishing,etc. .. they should all take lessons and learn dentistry, etc.... this is how it was in ancient Khemit,eypt - everyone was skilled in everything that was needed for everyone -

LHX
03-26-2006, 09:37 AM
everybody is their own dentist doctor plumber chef etc etc etc


this place we are living in right now is so fragmented it has become retarded

THE W
03-26-2006, 11:48 AM
everybody is their own dentist doctor plumber chef etc etc etc


this place we are living in right now is so fragmented it has become retarded
you definately can be all those things but you better know what you're doing.

Aqua Luna
03-26-2006, 12:21 PM
How am I gonna be my own doctor if If I was to fall ill.
Just go ahead and operate on myself?
Or head down the road and let the other skilled farmer/doctor/plumber operate on me?

Is this society on a seperate planet, where I don't ever have to engage in things like global trade or international communications, and relations?

This society sounds so unrealistic to me...
Grow everything myself
Then, learn every single skill known to man
That would take a considerable amount of time
And only trade in foods/services

People would have to live like this now if it weren't for technology.
I don't think man has found the way to make technology work for him.
Instead it works against us. So, take away technology and money then, Poof! instant hypothetical society come to life!

Besides, there is a certain amount of absolute drudgery involved in maintaining a society.
Like when the one who is skilled in taking care of the communities trash gets tired of doing that I can't imagine that there would be many volunteers choosing to take over his postion...especially when they have so many other skills to learn and take care of.

The one who works in the cloth factory might get tired of the drudgery...oh, no I'm supposed to weave my own fabrics and pick my own cotton on top of everything else??

I just don't understand where ya'll are coming from anymore.

THE W
03-26-2006, 12:45 PM
How am I gonna be my own doctor if If I was to fall ill.
Just go ahead and operate on myself?
Or head down the road and let the other skilled farmer/doctor/plumber operate on me?

who said there would only be one doctor in town, or just one person that knew a trade? it almost seems like your missing the point on purpose.

Is this society on a seperate planet, where I don't ever have to engage in things like global trade or international communications, and relations?

why would the community need to globalize?

This society sounds so unrealistic to me...
Grow everything myself
Then, learn every single skill known to man
That would take a considerable amount of time
And only trade in foods/services

you wouldnt have to learn another trade. you'd be fine with the one you have. your other needs would be taken care of by other members of the community. being multi-skilled would definately help, but its not required

People would have to live like this now if it weren't for technology.
I don't think man has found the way to make technology work for him.
Instead it works against us. So, take away technology and money then, Poof! instant hypothetical society come to life!

people would just find another way to control society. its a power game

Besides, there is a certain amount of absolute drudgery involved in maintaining a society.
Like when the one who is skilled in taking care of the communities trash gets tired of doing that I can't imagine that there would be many volunteers choosing to take over his postion...especially when they have so many other skills to learn and take care of.

The who works in the cloth factory might get tired of the drudgery...oh, no I'm supposed to weave my own fabrics and pick my own cotton on top of everything else??

which is why you do something that you love to do and not something that you think you have to because you gotta survive. "find something you love to do and you wont work a day in your life". certainly people get tired of doing things they never wanted to do in the first place no matter what benefits doing it brings them.

I just don't understand where ya'll are coming from anymore.

.......

LHX
03-26-2006, 12:45 PM
How am I gonna be my own doctor if If I was to fall ill.
Just go ahead and operate on myself?
Or head down the road and let the other skilled farmer/doctor/plumber operate on me?


fall ill?

most fields of medecine focus on preventative medecine

medicine only becomes complicated once you start treating all of the different parts of the body as separate pieces

i wont use this thread to go on about how flawed the western views of medicine are



Is this society on a seperate planet, where I don't ever have to engage in things like global trade or international communications, and relations?

This society sounds so unrealistic to me...
Grow everything myself
Then, learn every single skill known to man
That would take a considerable amount of time
And only trade in foods/services


let everything grow
understand you have all the skills you need already


People would have to live like this now if it weren't for technology.
I don't think man has found the way to make technology work for him.
Instead it works against us. So, take away technology and money then, Poof! instant hypothetical society come to life!

its because man does not know what he is trying to accomplish on this planet
and most technology is created aimlessly


Besides, there is a certain amount of absolute drudgery involved in maintaining a society.


drudgery?

are you serious?


Like when the one who is skilled in taking care of the communities trash gets tired of doing that I can't imagine that there would be many volunteers choosing to take over his postion...especially when they have so many other skills to learn and take care of.

what is trash?


The who works in the cloth factory might get tired of the drudgery...oh, no I'm supposed to weave my own fabrics and pick my own cotton on top of everything else??

I just don't understand where ya'll are coming from anymore.
on top of what else?

how many sets of clothes do you want?

Aqua Luna
03-26-2006, 01:09 PM
fall ill?

most fields of medecine focus on preventative medecine

medicine only becomes complicated once you start treating all of the different parts of the body as separate pieces

i wont use this thread to go on about how flawed the western views of medicine are

So there will not be any diseases in this society...this is a very good thing.


let everything grow
understand you have all the skills you need already
Well, I guess my idea of a better society is totally different the majority here, because this is just way to primitive for my tastes.
its because man does not know what he is trying to accomplish on this planet
and most technology is created aimlessly
Yes, and created to create more money for the ones in control...we could make technology work for us in a positive manner after abolishing money

drudgery?

are you serious? absolutely...I never want to have build ditches, roads, pick cotton and stuff when I could be studying art, science, or technology...that is drudgery to me.

what is trash?
huh?

on top of what else? farming, plumbing, dentistry, etc...

how many sets of clothes do you want?

As many as I need and desire...what, is there a limit on how many pairs of panties a woman should have??

THE W
03-26-2006, 01:17 PM
As many as I need and desire...what, is there a limit on how many pairs of panties a woman should have??
this is a huge problem with society today. we want WAY more than what we actually need. its a symptom of man's thirst for power and status. people need to focus on essentials.

why would you need more than 5 to 7 undergarments?

THE W
03-26-2006, 01:26 PM
So, take away technology and money then, Poof! instant hypothetical society come to life

no, just take away the cost of technology.

Aqua Luna
03-26-2006, 01:49 PM
this is a huge problem with society today. we want WAY more than what we actually need. its a symptom of man's thirst for power and status. people need to focus on essentials.

why would you need more than 5 to 7 undergarments?

I didn't say I wanted an excess amount of anything...

And, in my opinion...a person can never have enough underwear, lol.

No, but seriously underwear does not equal a thirst for power and control.

THE W
03-26-2006, 01:54 PM
but wanting more than you actually need is, which is the point of that statement.

you can wash your underwear. do you throw your underwear away after you wear them for a day?

LHX
03-26-2006, 02:04 PM
Well, I guess my idea of a better society is totally different the majority here, because this is just way to primitive for my tastes.

i dont really know what you mean by primitive anymore


my original posts stated that everything is readily provided for you

unfortunately man has separated himself from the land so much
that a sustainable lifestyle seems foreign to him




also
keep in mind that along with death
there are many schools of thought that suggest that all disease is illusionary and psychosomatic


what is there to study in art science and technology

arent they all the same thing?

Aqua Luna
03-26-2006, 02:20 PM
but wanting more than you actually need is, which is the point of that statement.

you can wash your underwear. do you throw your underwear away after you wear them for a day?

This is the point I'm trying to make...what is excess in your opiniion may be what is necessary in my opinion.

and no, I'm not talking about panties...it was just an example. lol

It gets tricky when you try to control society based on your precieved ideas of what is needed by the individual.

Don't mean people gotta be greedy and power thirsty, just means that I want to reserve the right to have preferences.

Aqua Luna
03-26-2006, 02:25 PM
i dont really know what you mean by primitive anymore


my original posts stated that everything is readily provided for you

unfortunately man has separated himself from the land so much
that a sustainable lifestyle seems foreign to him
Well, that could be just me...I ain't never claim to be mother teresa or Pochantas up in this mug...lol


also
keep in mind that along with death
there are many schools of thought that suggest that all disease is illusionary and psychosomatic
true

what is there to study in art science and technology

arent they all the same thing?
Could be definitely the same thing...but, it sure is a lot of it to study, but...that's life.

THE W
03-26-2006, 02:26 PM
does anyone even know what they REALLY need anymore?

the media has created so many false needs in our minds that we dont know what the essentials are.

hectis
03-26-2006, 02:49 PM
In Todays World Can Humans Make It With Out Money I Can Say Yes But If I Had No Money I Could Not Go To The Doctors When Im Sick My Fam Could Not Eat Cuz We Would Have No Food We Could Steel But That Is A Sin Against God There Are So Many Things U Need Money For However That Is Whats Wrong

THE W
03-26-2006, 03:04 PM
none of the goods/services we have require any type of currency to obtain, but we have allowed a few people to control us all through currency and through the fabrication of false neccesities.

LHX
03-26-2006, 04:19 PM
In Todays World Can Humans Make It With Out Money I Can Say Yes But If I Had No Money I Could Not Go To The Doctors When Im Sick My Fam Could Not Eat Cuz We Would Have No Food We Could Steel But That Is A Sin Against God There Are So Many Things U Need Money For However That Is Whats Wrong

eating when starving is never a sin against god

LHX
03-26-2006, 04:20 PM
i said it before

this planet is willing to provide everything we need if we let it

but
no

it is never good enough to satisfy desire

galt john galt
03-26-2006, 05:29 PM
is not desire unnatural if everything was provided on a here take it use it there's more where that came from.

the needs of each are not uniform therefore no quota type regulation to account for being satiated