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My First Timbs
06-08-2005, 05:21 PM
While I was lecturing at a new jersey college this spring semester, a student posed a question to me about what i had just presented...

the student posed an interesting question that i thought i would post here

The point / question he raised to me was as follows

" how can you say that "god" doesn't exist or that there isnt anything
"greater" or some kind of all knowing intelligent force"? doesnt the
concept of geometry in and of itself mean that there has to be a god? (I
knew what he was getting at but i asked him to explain because i wanted the student to articulate it for the class)

His point was, even if we assume that the big bang and
all of that did occurr... and that evolution did indeed occur etc etc,,
there still has to be some "force" that governs or is in control of the
natural laws of our universe.

for example, how can man explain a triangle? a triangle has intrinsic
properties of logic tied into it! (those being in particular the
pythagorean theorum) c squared = a squared + b squared... also other
gemetric properties of the triangle have no explanation.. how does man
explain that a right angle is 90 degrees and that no matter what every
triangle will always be 180 degress etc etc...

this argument is a good one, but is indeed fallible and flawed in my view and reasoning.....

just wanted to post this here to fuel discussion....

do u agree or disagree with this student who presented a seemingly
"rational" argument for the existence of an "intelligent" force?

Wu-Tality
06-08-2005, 05:48 PM
Pff, yeah but shit like that triangles are always 180 doesn't mean that it has to be god "intelligent force" that created it. Triangles are figures we earths made up, you don't find it in nature right. Im not that much into it though.

A better example should be the ball form, cause thats real.

002
06-08-2005, 05:56 PM
"there still has to be some "force" that governs or is in control of the
natural laws of our universe. "

yea. and that force is gravity. there's no such thing as God, or anything like that. it's pure bullshit. God is man made.

Rebel_INS
06-08-2005, 06:17 PM
Man I dont know, that stuff is confusing lol

MantiZ
06-08-2005, 06:54 PM
hmm it's a good argument.
i think proportions of human body are good argument too. i know that it's evolution, but still body of a healthy man has perfect geometrical proportions.

My First Timbs
06-08-2005, 07:08 PM
indeed

this is a good "rational" type of argument for a god's existence.. ( i only entertain rational arguments)

but anyway, this argument is indeed flawed!

it is flawed because basically, the natural laws that we have within our universe are laws of a fixed logic (by fixed logic, i mean that as humans our worldview is always based upon assigning values to things)

that fixed logic being one that was "created" or "deduced from nature" by sentient beings.. those sentient beings of course being us.
Triangles and all of the principles of "triangular-ness" only exist because we are here to think them up and assign a value to them. (this goes for most of logic in addition). Our rules of logic (which of course is always tied into mathematics on a fundamental level) only exists because we exist.

mathematics is a human construct, therefore, to use his example, a right angle is DEFINED as 90 degrees. Mathematics is a language with which we can describe the Universe we live in. The triangle describes a set of similar objects, which we define to obey a certain set of rules. Thus, a right-angled triangle is defined to be an object which has three sides, obeys Pythagoras's Theorem and whose angles add up to 180 degrees. Thus, the argument fails.

Prolifical ENG
06-08-2005, 07:17 PM
You are right on that concept of mathematics that not everyone can grasp.

Even then, there are many properties of the universe that havent even been discovered yet...furthermore dont have any fixed values. Perhaps some unknown properties could prove god's existance

My First Timbs
06-08-2005, 07:22 PM
there is always hope when it comes to the "unknown"..but we dont know the unknown. so we waste our time considering the unknown... we can only deal with what we have.... the "known"

Ronin
06-08-2005, 07:26 PM
lol thats not really an arguement, force is not here for the purpose of man, the comet his earth because earth was in its way, it brought life to the planet

i personally dont beleive in god, id really like to but i beleive god is man made because we cant accept death

we are over evolved and thinkt oo bighly of ourselves, after all...is there a heaven for cats and dogs?

MantiZ
06-08-2005, 07:29 PM
why the hell you need heaven? think 'bout reincarnation.

Oel
06-08-2005, 08:38 PM
It wasnt god who said what one degree in a triangle is! we live by some rules which make sure that other rules apply!

Oel
06-08-2005, 08:43 PM
mathematics is a human construct, therefore, to use his example, a right angle is DEFINED as 90 degrees. Mathematics is a language with which we can describe the Universe we live in. The triangle describes a set of similar objects, which we define to obey a certain set of rules. Thus, a right-angled triangle is defined to be an object which has three sides, obeys Pythagoras's Theorem and whose angles add up to 180 degrees. Thus, the argument fails.
Einstein said that his triangle had three 90 degree spots!!! BANGA

Decka
06-08-2005, 08:51 PM
i have heard better arguiments than that, but it is good one.

tostones
06-09-2005, 03:55 AM
PEACE

Interesting thread, the question could be probed deeper, to include other interesting phenomena found in Math Theory (maybe circular trig and sound or light waves?). Some questions came up when I was thinking about this.

It is unclear to me what exactly you meant when writing about "fixed logic". Are you arguing that principles exist only because we exist? That our understanding is limited? Are principles "created" or "deduced"?

If a tool is used to reveal inherent properties, being the existence of relationships, do those relationships exist if never measured? Can you be mathematically accurate and not logical?

I agree that mathematics are a tool, of course, and it is intriguing that it happens to be the only language shared by all humans, used everywhere in practically every science, developed in seperate cultures, and even used by SETI (binary and prime).

SHRAP
06-09-2005, 04:07 AM
thats the stupidest fucking thing ive ever heard in my life, so much for college

Wooly Noggins
06-10-2005, 10:36 PM
why do you think that this is a good argument timbs ?

a triangle is only 3 lines

how a huge sphere of fire up in space burns for so long would be a better one

and how snow flakes are in the shape of sun rays

i believe the reason we don't have answers to these questions is because a long time ago they used to feed us paint chips in the form of school lunch

Hidden Chamber
06-10-2005, 10:40 PM
scientist r scared of da truth

My First Timbs
06-11-2005, 01:37 AM
why do you think that this is a good argument timbs ?

a triangle is only 3 lines

how a huge sphere of fire up in space burns for so long would be a better one

and how snow flakes are in the shape of sun rays

i believe the reason we don't have answers to these questions is because a long time ago they used to feed us paint chips in the form of school lunch
i thought it was a good argument because it atleast tried to be rational and present an argument based on logic

the snowflake argument is irrational because it assumes that complex things cant arise in nature without intelligent help, but yet its already been put to rest that order can come from disorder in nature without help.

Wooly Noggins
06-11-2005, 02:02 AM
where did this concept of a great mind creating everything that exist come from ?

My First Timbs
06-11-2005, 02:09 AM
i dont believe in that of course.. but the concept stems from the basic premise that complexity cant exist in nature without a designer

it started formally aboutt 500 years ago with william paley

Wooly Noggins
06-11-2005, 02:40 AM
it started formally aboutt 500 years ago with william paley
i never heard of him
thats deep though

500 years ago?

a creator of everything that ever existed that lives forever and ever and you only get to experience the abode of this creator when you die
but believers fight to save their lives and the lives of their loved ones
how much do they really believe when faced with death

Wu-Tality
06-11-2005, 09:10 AM
haha I feel so stupid.. wtf did I write down

My 1st Timbs
06-11-2005, 10:07 AM
yea wiliam paley is the theologian that came up with the "watchmaker" argument..

an irrational argument that everything complex in nature shows proof of an intelligent designer.

this argument has been debunked a thousand times, but xtians primarily still cling to it as if it was never debunked

Ronin
06-11-2005, 10:09 AM
scientist r scared of da truth
no, christians are scared of the truth

when u die NOTHING happens

LHX
06-11-2005, 11:04 AM
kinda like its god that proves geometry

i'll take mentally frustrating philosophical questions for 800 alex

Wooly Noggins
06-12-2005, 03:43 PM

all life we are talking about all life right
not just man, but all life right
would not the planets be considered alive ?
all molecules and atoms or whatever
were not those things always around ?

if this God created all life and life really doesn't die it just becomes another form of life or it lives a spirit life after its dead would not this creator have his hands full ?

and don't tell me that the creator doesn't have hands
does not the bible say that Godinscribed the tablets with his onw finger ?

if this God/creator of everything exist, he wants us to be responsible for our own actions and to stop blaming everything on him

002
06-12-2005, 03:48 PM
lol thats not really an arguement, force is not here for the purpose of man, the comet his earth because earth was in its way, it brought life to the planet

i personally dont beleive in god, id really like to but i beleive god is man made because we cant accept death

we are over evolved and thinkt oo bighly of ourselves, after all...is there a heaven for cats and dogs?
fuck yea. god is 100% man made. it all started when cavemen who couldn't understand thunder and lightning and shit like that thought there must be someone up there.

Wooly Noggins
06-12-2005, 03:50 PM
fuck yea. god is 100% man made. it all started when cavemen who couldn't understand thunder and lightning and shit like that thought there must be someone up there.

cavemen ?
6000 years ago ?

Hidden Chamber
06-12-2005, 05:12 PM
read da bible da prophecy is being fullfilled in deez worldly events right now, were livin' in da last days

002
06-12-2005, 05:19 PM
ppl have been sayin that for hundreds of years. pure bullshit. listen to Ras Kass - Nature of the Threat. yall might learn some shit. http://www.ohhla.com/anonymous/ras_kass/sl_onice/threat.rsk.txt

My First Timbs
06-12-2005, 11:28 PM
read da bible da prophecy is being fullfilled in deez worldly events right now, were livin' in da last days
every time period can be seen as the "last days"

its totally subjective but yet the last day has yet to materialize!

ppl have been saying this fpr hundreds of years

jimidigital808
06-13-2005, 03:25 AM
Peace to the initiator of this thread, as this is indeed a most fascinating subject.

To put it plainly, mathematics--geometry, especially--is the only truly universal language-science. Numbers cannot and will not lie, and so anything (whether a temple, planet, or even a galaxy) built on a truly sound, mathematical foundation has an unbreakable foundation.

Moreover, anything found in nature can be qualified and quantified in mathematical terms. By familiarizing one's self with Sacred Geometry, one will realize that a certain underlying system of proportions governs absolutely everything in existence, thusly revealing that even in nature--which is truly chaotic at best--everything is manifest in a precise and ordered manner. This inherently proves the existence of a Supreme Being, commonly referred to most as God.

The signs of God's benevolent existence are absolutely ubiquitous, for those wise enough to reflect. How many signs will you deny?

Moreover, how many pagan heathens will ignorantly and irrationally attempt to hinder the wisdom in this reply from illuminating perusing minds?

P.S.-
Peace to the Wu for bringing the site back online.

ON POINT
06-13-2005, 04:58 AM
I heard that between large distances in outer space the pythagorian therom dosnt always hold true, like between stars light years apart

My First Timbs
10-06-2005, 10:40 PM
pythagorean theorum always holds tru even in interstellar distances.. at the end of the day its all a man made logic system where we place values on distances.. doesnt really mean anything objectively.

TeknicelStylez
10-06-2005, 11:49 PM
Everybodies forgetting that, a sum of a triangle adding up to 180 degrees is only euclidean geometry, wich scientists are finding out can't be applied to everything like they though it could.

What about Lobachevsky, or Reumanian?

iNtell3kT
10-07-2005, 12:05 AM
that was stupid, WE prove god excists, WE ARE THE PROOF....

tajeco
10-07-2005, 01:19 AM
I'm 26 years old and taking Elementary Algebra in community college, it's like highschool level shit and I don't get it. But I think that pi, and all universal mathematics and shapes of science, like circles and triangles, are building blocks for life. Nothing exists without circles and triangles. Electrons orbit the nucleus inside atoms just as the Earth orbits the Sun. I don't think god fits into any reasonable scientific equation. Does that make sense? I didn't ever pay attention in school, so I don't know much, but I do know a lot of religious stuff sounds like jibberish, you know, people not believing dinosaurs were real and shit.

My First Timbs
10-07-2005, 01:29 AM
tajeco good point, i urge to to get a true understanding of algebra and all math... it is greatly beneficial

circles, triangles and any mathematical shape does exist but only only because we exist to think them up and assign values to them..

the concept of a circle or trianle is a man made concept.. without our logic these shapes wouldnt have any meaning or value.

of course that doesnt mean that circles and triangles dont occur naturally in nature, but the value and emphasis we place on it is a manmade phenomenon.

they are not in any way evidence of unity in the universe or creation by a god

triggahappy187
10-07-2005, 03:14 AM
You see the problem is we got dudes today who come on here an post they feelins bout God, God is man made blah blah shit stain drawers..... Then you got the young kids who think they life is bad an insist there is no God, they will follow this person's veiws because they feel "if there was a God I wouldn't be sufferin. "For anythin to exist so must its opposite how could there be death if somethin never knew life" there is false prophets who spread this shit round an it was written in the bible this would happen an it is happenin more then it ever has. Some of you might laugh at what I say an present your evidence an say "Good luck spendin ya life worshippin somethin that does not exist. But my answer to that is I can't prove God parted the sea for Moses or I can't prove there is somethin better for all of us believers. I done need to prove anythin cuz when I observe a beautiful sun as its setting no matter how bad my day went I realize God has blessed me wif a present, I done need proof, I have faith and even more then faith I feel God's presence and its somethin beautiful main. Prayin has helped me through some difficult shit.

Much love to you all 1.

My First Timbs
10-07-2005, 08:56 AM
a beautiful sunset is a SUBJECTIVE experience and not objective in anyway.

one could look at a sunset and see beauty while another can feel pain from being exposed to slight uv radiation.

a positive subjective experience is worthless. the concept of a "god" is a subjective experience

TeknicelStylez
10-07-2005, 09:21 AM
I love the way people ignore my post...

My First Timbs
10-07-2005, 11:39 AM
i read ur post and am familiar with that.. the concept that im getting at is that the concept of 180 degrees is still a humanoid construct. so it doesnt matter if we adhere to euclidean, Lobachevsky, or Reumanian. but i understand ur point.

the concept of a triangle is a symbolic humanoid construct... the value assigned to it is arbitrary (within the realm of whatever mathematical system is adhered to)

triangles existing or uniform mathematical concept existing, does not offer evidence for a higher power... (ur post proved this)

i didnt ignore ur post

peace

Koolish
10-07-2005, 12:54 PM
the sad thing i see a lot is that for those who believe in nothing, believe that humans have figured out almost everything.
________
Brunette Interracial (http://www.fucktube.com/categories/427/interracial/videos/1)

My First Timbs
10-07-2005, 12:58 PM
so so so far from the truth.

those who dont believe in a god totally accept that we dont know much! thats why they are continually in pursuit of true knowledge instead of assuming everything is the manifestation of a higher power

ballistic
10-07-2005, 01:57 PM
first of all, I believe in God...i think that a lot of the disillusionment that is connected with religion and the concept of a God in general is engendered by the dilution of a lot of the basic principles and teachings by humans for personal interests of power and other egocentric aims.
we as people are supercilious and arrogant enough to think that, because this is all we are used to, this is automatically all there is. this physical world is nothing more than an extended metephor for the real, spiritual realm...we are all trapped souls on a physical plane of existence.
its funny how scientists are, stereotypically at least, against the idea of religion, when science really is nothing more than attempts to explain God's creation. i think the law of entropy concisely proves that there is some higher power...it states that if you put energy into something, then it will in general be better off than if you left it alone, in which case it would decay or deteriorate. much is the same with our situation...if there was no higher power, how could there be us? we are intelligent, coherent beings, and so it is impossible for us to arise from nothing...unless you consider the entity of nature to have some intellectual advantage over the human race. its like there couldnt be inventions if there were no inventors...
there is no such thing as death...that's a very subjective, limited view on the passage of one's essence from one stage to another...
great thread by the way.

My First Timbs
10-07-2005, 03:32 PM
peace

its funny how scientists are, stereotypically at least, against the idea of religion, when science really is nothing more than attempts to explain God's creation. i think the law of entropy concisely proves that there is some higher power...it states that if you put energy into something, then it will in general be better off than if you left it alone, in which case it would decay or deteriorate. much is the same with our situation...if there was no higher power, how could there be us? we are intelligent, coherent beings, and so it is impossible for us to arise from nothing...unless you consider the entity of nature to have some intellectual advantage over the human race. its like there couldnt be inventions if there were no inventors...
this is a long running weak argument for the existence of a god.

1st and foremost, entropy and the laws of thermodynamics do not accurately apply to us and our universe in the way you are simplyfying it!

basically what you are stating is that things "more time than not" , "tend" to always go from order to disorder when ever energy is put into something and it is left at rest.. THIS IS NOT TRUE AT ALL and is a major misconception people have about the laws of thermodynamics!

a simplified schoolyard example would be if i had a bottle of oil and water and shook it up (thus adding kinetic energy.. among other things).. the kinetic energy i just added causes everything o mix...,, but if i leave this bottle at rest (with a lack of energy) it with revert to a state of ORDERED EXISTENCE (oil sitting uniformly atop the water).. thus.. the bottle was a manifestation of choas going to order instead of order going to chaos

2ndly.. science doesnt try to xplain god's creation.. this is irrational first and foremost because this premise assumes the existence of a god to begin with! science is OBJECTIVE.. it simply explains what is out there and how our world works irrespective of how a person's belief system is... to be more accurate.. religion and groundless claims of a supernatural god. tend to make one contempt with ignorance....

if there was no higher power, how could there be us? we are intelligent, coherent beings, and so it is impossible for us to arise from nothing...unless you consider the entity of nature to have some intellectual advantage over the human race. its like there couldnt be inventions if there were no inventors...this seems to be the crux of the issue.. as i have always noticed.. all arguments against science (the majority) and all arguments for the existence of a god, rely on a question instead of presenting a valid claim. it is well known how humans arose on this planet and it does not require immediate belief in a supernatural higher power

this is also known as the weak "watchmaker" argument that was put to rest about 100 years ago. its irrational.

one cannot assume existence of a highr being simply do to perceived complexity of life. first of all, complexity is a subjective assessment. (complex compared to what?) is the homo sapien really that more complex than ecoli bacterium? no, not at all.

what makes that argument even more absurd and irrational is the fact that if complex intelligent things require a higher power to create them.. what created God?

"god" is allegedly a complex higher being, thus by ur argument and implied logic... god himslef (or herself depending on ur culture and religion) must of been created by an even more greater power......

in a nutshell.. what gives one the right to irrationally stop and the one particular concept of god they believe in... logically the chain of the "first cause" can stretch back to infiniti

so the argument of complexity arising froma higher power is irrational if its going to assume that that higher power is a god.

My First Timbs
10-07-2005, 03:47 PM
hmm it's a good argument.
i think proportions of human body are good argument too. i know that it's evolution, but still body of a healthy man has perfect geometrical proportions.
not true.. there is no perfect symmetry in man

our brains have evolved to "like" symmetry, but symmetry is not present in perfect form in humanity... our brains interpret symmetry as fertile and healthy...

there are solid evolutionary reasons for this.

ballistic
10-07-2005, 03:59 PM
yeah you most certainly have the upper hand on me in a scientific dialogue, but when i said that science is nothing more than attempts to explain God's existence, i wasnt trying to define the state of mind that scientists have when they delve into their field...
when i put forth the theory of entropy in relation to God, i was just trying to provide a simplified analogy...obviously there are aspects of this arguement that arent empirically able to be proved. i dont believe that you can apply physical laws that govern our world to spiritual matters, certainly not God...but at the same time, realize that this is not an arguement against science, on the contrary, i have the utmost appreciation and respect for it...its a shame that usually science and religion are pitted aginst each other continuously, when in reality it shouldnt be such a conflict.
i have a belief in religion, and systematic revelations that God sends to us through Prophets and Manifestations..most people see religion as a divisive illusion of no truth, but it is mainly people who have made theology so cloudy.
just because things can't be physically proven according to the laws that govern the world that we live in, doesnt necessarily mean that they aren't 'real'. i think this perception is one that is very constraining...one in which everything has to be measured for its existence to be proven.
much respect for the conversation...

My First Timbs
10-07-2005, 04:14 PM
peace and respect 2 u too :)

dont get me wrong.. i personally believe that religion was the most beneficial thing that ever happened to homo sapiens.. i dont confuse religion with "god".. to me they are 2 different things.

religion provides so many positive things (almost all positive)

my problem i swith the concept of an invisible supernatural higher power

Prolifical ENG
10-07-2005, 04:19 PM
Of course....even if someone knows geometry and some values given with universal properties....they know enough to apply it in day to day applications.

When someone knows these properties well enough...and good with manipulating numbers, they might be able to predict what a change in a universal property as we know them, could do to the universe.

However, it would be hard to explain why these values are "set" the way that they are and likely always have been since the big bang. That means it is easiest to think if someone (like a god) had some kind of control panel of the universe and set those values (as we know them from the number system) in.

TeknicelStylez
10-07-2005, 05:03 PM
This really belongs in KTL

My First Timbs
10-07-2005, 06:10 PM
Of course....even if someone knows geometry and some values given with universal properties....they know enough to apply it in day to day applications.

When someone knows these properties well enough...and good with manipulating numbers, they might be able to predict what a change in a universal property as we know them, could do to the universe.

However, it would be hard to explain why these values are "set" the way that they are and likely always have been since the big bang. That means it is easiest to think if someone (like a god) had some kind of control panel of the universe and set those values (as we know them from the number system) in.
but these values are only "set" because we created the scoring system and logic that houses them

tajeco
10-07-2005, 06:36 PM
I agree with TeknicelStylez, this belongs in Know the Ledge

Prolifical ENG
10-07-2005, 06:47 PM
but these values are only "set" because we created the scoring system and logic that houses them

I know, thats why I put "set" in quotations :D

This really belongs in KTL

Yes, earlier on today I put a request in the KTL sticky. THis thread was created before the new KTL was made....Timbs resurected this thread.

hectis
10-08-2005, 02:37 AM
yeah GOD existence is real. in fact it is foolish to think other wise

SubtleEnergies
10-08-2005, 09:57 AM
the point is that entropy or whatever. There has to be intelligence for things to come into order.

36chambers
10-08-2005, 10:52 AM
moved.

Wooly Noggins
10-08-2005, 12:18 PM
Many see this God in Many different ways

God isn't the same for all

there are many levels of this

many who say they believe in God has never read anything that has been written about God

and never really done any study on themselves as to why they believe in such

this is where the conflict starts

and it needs to be sort out before all can elevate

LHX
10-08-2005, 12:20 PM
the word 'believe' suggests a measure of uncertainty

a person who says they 'believe' is admitting they are unsure

...and yet they are willing to argue anyway

Wooly Noggins
10-08-2005, 12:30 PM
the word 'believe' suggests a measure of uncertainty

a person who says they 'believe' is admitting they are unsure

...and yet they are willing to argue anyway
this is true and we all do this in some way when dealing with other subjects

why does one argue about what one does not know ?

off subject -

what is the opposite to ctrl - z ?

LHX
10-08-2005, 12:33 PM
this is true and we all do this in some way when dealing with other subjects

why does one argue about what one does not know ?

it gotta be a pride / ego thing

off subject -

what is the opposite to ctrl - z ?
?

Wooly Noggins
10-08-2005, 12:39 PM
the keys on the pc keyboard

Ctrl-z

is there a opposite to it

Ctrl-z is like an automatic backspace

if you hold down Ctrl-z it will erase a portion of what you write

is there an opposite ?

LHX
10-08-2005, 12:55 PM
something that will write something you havent written yet?

Wooly Noggins
10-08-2005, 01:15 PM
something that will write something you havent written yet?
lol nah man forget it

My First Timbs
10-08-2005, 01:45 PM
the point is that entropy or whatever. There has to be intelligence for things to come into order.
not at all

i dont know why ppl cling to this belief..

My First Timbs
10-08-2005, 01:47 PM
something that will write something you havent written yet?
lmao !! good answer

Wooly Noggins
10-08-2005, 01:57 PM
no - something that will retrieve what you have written and lost

My First Timbs
10-08-2005, 02:08 PM
edit-- undo?

Prince Rai
10-08-2005, 02:12 PM
no - something that will retrieve what you have written and lost
nope unless youve saved what youve written..

btw why press ctrl n z anyway? pretty random when u know it will delete everything u wrote!

as for the question..

i dont think geometry is the only mean of determining the whole idea of God and deleting it when flaws have been found.

geometry asks our mind to use a 3D perceptive view to understand logic.
a triangle is a triangle in our mind.. the logic behind it is born from there.

however let me put the limitations of geometry to explain God into perspective.

Quantum Physics and Metaphysics... shows that our ideaology on Earth is limited to viewing everything in 3D.. we see what we see through our eyes which too has flaws.

in terms of the whole universe.. our mind cannot comprehend everything as we are trapped by our own physical limitations and understanding.

entire universe is very vast and has dimensions that are not comprehendable to the naked mind which is trapped in our body most of the times.

the space/time theory shows that.. the issue of time in the universe indicated that there are dimensions which exist alongside ours.. it is because we travel in a certain degree of light and speed.. that we cannot connect with the other dimensions...

you see what i am saying here is that... the geometry we are talking of is the one which is comprehendable to our mind influenced by our physicalities.
geometry is not simple and pinpoint.. it is complex and continues to develop when we apply the space/time theory here as well.. because we must start seing things in 4D which shows the new dimensions.. however as we cannot do that.. geometry cannot be used to argue or counterargue God at all..

Quantum Physics is a betr option

peace and blessings

good topic

LHX
10-08-2005, 03:00 PM
when i understood the principle of uncertainty

it blew my mind

it was all over after that
i couldnt recover

Wooly Noggins
10-08-2005, 03:05 PM
nope unless youve saved what youve written..

btw why press ctrl n z anyway? pretty random when u know it will delete everything u wrote!
it deletes a portion at a time
not the whole thing
lol but nevermind

My First Timbs
10-08-2005, 03:10 PM
quantum mechanics and physics of particles at the quantum level is indeed the future to human understanding

LHX
10-08-2005, 03:18 PM
its all ancient knowledge

Prince Rai
10-08-2005, 03:19 PM
quantum mechanics and physics of particles at the quantum level is indeed the future to human understanding

you see these are the emans by which man can now see the universe on a wider level..

the fact that the universe is still bases on randomness yet works like a clock most of the times.. leaves the important room for the mere idea of God.

as well as lay down how God would be necessary to control randomness.. and why on Earth.. there is so much evil and what makes people so confused as to why God made what he did.

its because man sees through a small mind, that we only see what we do.. quantum future indicates that there is a common consciousness and a God who is the master of this.

quantum physics lays down the realm that.. God is no spook, but an essentuial form/ which cannot be seen due to SPACE/TIME theory, yet a force/consciousness to which we become united with.

Prince Rai
10-08-2005, 03:21 PM
its all ancient knowledge
indeed ancient knowledge elevated through the mind..

now its a modern phenomenon elevated through science matter

LHX
10-08-2005, 03:22 PM
the fact that the universe is still bases on randomness yet works like a clock most of the times.. leaves the important room for the mere idea of God.

as well as lay down how God would be necessary to control randomness.. and why on Earth.. there is so much evil and what makes people so confused as to why God made what he did.

its because man sees through a small mind, that we only see what we do.. quantum future indicates that there is a common consciousness and a God who is the master of this.

quantum physics lays down the realm that.. God is no spook, but an essentuial form/ which cannot be seen due to SPACE/TIME theory, yet a force/consciousness to which we become united with.

i think this still complicates the issue too much

My First Timbs
10-08-2005, 03:23 PM

you see these are the emans by which man can now see the universe on a wider level..

the fact that the universe is still bases on randomness yet works like a clock most of the times.. leaves the important room for the mere idea of God.

as well as lay down how God would be necessary to control randomness.. and why on Earth.. there is so much evil and what makes people so confused as to why God made what he did.

its because man sees through a small mind, that we only see what we do.. quantum future indicates that there is a common consciousness and a God who is the master of this.

quantum physics lays down the realm that.. God is no spook, but an essentuial form/ which cannot be seen due to SPACE/TIME theory, yet a force/consciousness to which we become united with.
__________________

i agree with you wholeheartedly!

my "crusade" is against the superstitious concept of an almighty father figure.. not the potential of of a "God" that is shed light on thru understanding of quantum mechanics.

imo the idea and concept of "god" that is hinted toward when one understands quantum physics is greater and mor epowerful and more far reaching than any concept of a supernatural father figure.. it makes all of that look like backwater nonsense.. if a "god" exists, the concept is so unimaginable and greater than what religion has ever conceived!

Prince Rai
10-08-2005, 03:24 PM
i think this still complicates the issue too muchyes.. but the truth is soemthing that everybody thinks they have found..

it it was all that simple.. there is no need to debate..

the mind/sceince/universe/god is a complex matter..

quantum thought is definitely another new/old step to view things

My First Timbs
10-08-2005, 03:25 PM
i think this still complicates the issue too muchits complicated but imo necessary for trying to understand the essense of what is meant by "god"

thru quantum mechanics we are led to believe or conclude that among other things, the world at its most distilled form must be under the control (or atleast vigilance) of a silent observer.. an "objective lens" thru which all exists

Prince Rai
10-08-2005, 03:26 PM
i agree with you wholeheartedly!

my "crusade" is against the superstitious concept of an almighty father figure.. not the potential of of a "God" that is shed light on thru understanding of quantum mechanics.

imo the idea and concept of "god" that is hinted toward when one understands quantum physics is greater and mor epowerful and more far reaching than any concept of a supernatural father figure.. it makes all of that look like backwater nonsense.. if a "god" exists, the concept is so unimaginable and greater than what religion has ever conceived!
i so agree here.. much props..

indeed the God explained thorugh these emans is definitely more powerful than any man depiction.. because we see the entire truth much more deeply..

scinece can always erase the God that religion depicts.. but never the picture of God which IS. (imo i respect ur position)

opeace

LHX
10-08-2005, 03:27 PM
it it was all that simple.. there is no need to debate..

the mind/sceince/universe/god is a complex matter..

noooooooooooo way dude

fuck

i been agreeing with you for like 6 months now

finally we get something to discuss

my understanding is that as technology and communication advances it is to APPEAR as a complex matter

peeling off layers of information tho
it really and truly is the simplest thing

LHX
10-08-2005, 03:29 PM
thru quantum mechanics we are led to believe or conclude that among other things, the world at its most distilled form must be under the control (or atleast vigilance) of a silent observer.. an "objective lens" thru which all exists
no no noooooooooooooooooooooooo way

a silent observer?

isnt that me when i am not communicating or seeking knowledge?

Prince Rai
10-08-2005, 03:32 PM
noooooooooooo way dude

fuck

i been agreeing with you for like 6 months now

finally we get something to discuss

my understanding is that as technology and communication advances it is to APPEAR as a complex matter

peeling off layers of information tho
it really and truly is the simplest thing
man i know... u one of the guys here i can truly discuss things with
lol scorp vet at heart :P

but i know.. quantum is definitely a new subject and a deep one which takes time to sink in.

its a simple idea but with far reaching consequences

Prince Rai
10-08-2005, 03:34 PM
no no noooooooooooooooooooooooo way

a silent observer?

isnt that me when i am not communicating or seeking knowledge?
well ur part of this consciousness

BUT... u are trapped up in physicality..

you gta be able to control SPACE/TIME to control alll dimensions and see whats really true

My First Timbs
10-08-2005, 03:34 PM
no no noooooooooooooooooooooooo way

a silent observer?

isnt that me when i am not communicating or seeking knowledge?no.. according to theoretical quantum mechanics, u are not a silent observer.. the most u can be is a silent "perceiver".. with no way to gauge "objective reality"

LHX
10-08-2005, 03:35 PM
the thing about quantum theory is that at the end it disproves itself

to be honest - it seems like quantum theory uproots the entire validity of newtonian science and quite possible every other discipline that came after the use of hieroglyphics

LHX
10-08-2005, 03:37 PM
no.. according to theoretical quantum mechanics, u are not a silent observer.. the most u can be is a silent "perceiver".. with no way to gauge "objective reality"
you mean no way to explain objective reality

there is a massive difference

and that difference is prolly the crux of this discussion

LHX
10-08-2005, 03:38 PM
you are a silent observer

until you seek to explain what you are observing

because our tools of definition and communication are ineffective
you come across as somebody/thing who is simply perceiving subjectively

My First Timbs
10-08-2005, 03:39 PM
not really what i mean.. we could explain objective reality and what it most likely would probably consist of.. it consists of a range of "possibilities"

but we, the mere "perceivers" have no way to gage objective reality in practice in our lives.

Prince Rai
10-08-2005, 03:42 PM
not really what i mean.. we could explain objective reality and what it most likely would probably consist of.. it consists of a range of "possibilities"

but we, the mere "perceivers" have no way to gage objective reality in practice in our lives.
that is correct.

objective reality is what we assume

the real reality is much more bigger

and we cannot get this as we are not control of objective reality

hope i make sense..

LHX
10-08-2005, 03:43 PM
not really what i mean.. we could explain objective reality and what it most likely would probably consist of.. it consists of a range of "possibilities"

but we, the mere "perceivers" have no way to gage objective reality in practice in our lives.
i think that you may be selling yourself short

and also may be assuming a bit too much about objective reality

you can figure out exactly what objective reality consists of by continually narrowing down the 'possibilities'

My First Timbs
10-08-2005, 03:44 PM
makes perfect sense princerai

Wooly Noggins
10-08-2005, 03:44 PM

you see these are the emans by which man can now see the universe on a wider level..

the fact that the universe is still bases on randomness yet works like a clock most of the times.. leaves the important room for the mere idea of God.

as well as lay down how God would be necessary to control randomness.. and why on Earth.. there is so much evil and what makes people so confused as to why God made what he did.

its because man sees through a small mind, that we only see what we do.. quantum future indicates that there is a common consciousness and a God who is the master of this.

quantum physics lays down the realm that.. God is no spook, but an essentuial form/ which cannot be seen due to SPACE/TIME theory, yet a force/consciousness to which we become united with.
if this is so complicated why does man feel that he knows what this god thinks and feels for him

and can yall break down in simple words what exactly is quantum physics or our understanding of it

My First Timbs
10-08-2005, 03:45 PM
i think that you may be selling yourself short

and also may be assuming a bit too much about objective reality

you can figure out exactly what objective reality consists of by continually narrowing down the 'possibilities'
wut if all of thes epossibilities exist simultaneoulsy? how could one narrow them down? let alone know which one is the true "objective reality"?

LHX
10-08-2005, 03:45 PM
that is correct.

objective reality is what we assume

the real reality is much more bigger

and we cannot get this as we are not control of objective reality

hope i make sense..

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo way dude

that sounds like an assumption

Prince Rai
10-08-2005, 03:47 PM
if this is so complicated why does man feel that he knows what this god thinks and feels for him

and can yall break down in simple words what exactly is quantum physics or our understanding of it
quantum metaphysics put the picture of God in trems of physicality..

"God" is a consciousness connected to ours.. as we are consciousness as well. thus there is a branched possibility that through this link.. feelings are mutual etc etc

Prince Rai
10-08-2005, 03:48 PM
noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo way dude

that sounds like an assumption
hmm i didnt make myself clear as i had feared..

ok.. reality.. what is it? how do you define it?
just simply..

LHX
10-08-2005, 03:48 PM
wut if all of thes epossibilities exist simultaneoulsy? how could one narrow them down? let alone know which one is the true "objective reality"?
i didnt say its easy man

sounds to me like you are demonstrating your 'randomness' factor

a bunch of random possibilities - the imagination truly is a wondrous thing

the true objective reality is the one you are living right now

LHX
10-08-2005, 03:50 PM
quantum metaphysics put the picture of God in trems of physicality..

"God" is a consciousness connected to ours.. as we are consciousness as well. thus there is a branched possibility that through this link.. feelings are mutual etc etc

quantum physics is UNDEFINED

our consciousness is gods consciousness

the only difference is that we try to discuss it with one another

LHX
10-08-2005, 03:50 PM
hmm i didnt make myself clear as i had feared..

ok.. reality.. what is it? how do you define it?
just simply..

reality is this

My First Timbs
10-08-2005, 03:52 PM
i didnt say its easy man

sounds to me like you are demonstrating your 'randomness' factor

a bunch of random possibilities - the imagination truly is a wondrous thing

the true objective reality is the one you are living right now
OMG (whatver the "G" means.. i dont know).. but anyway

the tru objective reality may not be the one i am living in and perceiving right now... i am only perceiving myself sitting at a desk communicating to another individual named LHX.. although we both share this same reality, that in no way means that we are witnessing objective reality.

in a super simplified example, this computer may not even exist, but only in both of our perceptive minds (and the minds of those watching us communicate)

Wooly Noggins
10-08-2005, 03:53 PM
this is how it should be

Quote:
Originally Posted by My First Timbs
i agree with you wholeheartedly!

my "crusade" is against the superstitious concept of an almighty father figure.. not the potential of of a "God" that is shed light on thru understanding of quantum mechanics.

imo the idea and concept of "god" that is hinted toward when one understands quantum physics is greater and mor epowerful and more far reaching than any concept of a supernatural father figure.. it makes all of that look like backwater nonsense.. if a "god" exists, the concept is so unimaginable and greater than what religion has ever conceived!

i so agree here.. much props..

indeed the God explained thorugh these emans is definitely more powerful than any man depiction.. because we see the entire truth much more deeply..

scinece can always erase the God that religion depicts.. but never the picture of God which IS. (imo i respect ur position)

peace

__________________________________________________ ____________

But i still do not understand what Quantum Physics is

can yall break it down ?

Prince Rai
10-08-2005, 03:53 PM
reality is this
reality is much muuuuch more LHX!

we see reality in one dimension, and the worst thing.. we perceive it through means which have flaws.. ie our senses..
im not saying everything is unreal neither that everything is deceptive..
of course this is reality that we are living in the broad terminology..

however the reality we see does not stop here.. it is wider..

again i will say.. quantum knowledge has opened a window to see why this is true.

Wooly Noggins
10-08-2005, 03:56 PM
reality is much muuuuch more LHX!

we see reality in one dimension, and the worst thing.. we perceive it through means which have flaws.. ie our senses..
im not saying everything is unreal neither that everything is deceptive..
of course this is reality that we are living in the broad terminology..

however the reality we see does not stop here.. it is wider..

again i will say.. quantum knowledge has opened a window to see why this is true.
thats it right there - how do we know its wider if we are limited to our own perception of things

hope that makes sense

Prince Rai
10-08-2005, 03:57 PM
OMG (whatver the "G" means.. i dont know).. but anyway

the tru objective reality may not be the one i am living in and perceiving right now... i am only perceiving myself sitting at a desk communicating to another individual named LHX.. although we both share this same reality, that in no way means that we are witnessing objective reality.

in a super simplified example, this computer may not even exist, but only in both of our perceptive minds (and the minds of those watching us communicate)
yes indeed.. infact my short explanation that reality may just be perception, can be brielfy said here again.

we perceive reality as to what it is by seing it through how we see it.. through our senses mainly..

our senses make up a reality and as senses are truly physical and have limitations.. how do we know everything is definitely real?

ok now.. i believe in my senses to a large extent.. i would truly belive that i am talking to u guys and that i am in London and not in Tokyo at the moment..

many words that sound so definite are so conceptual!

LHX
10-08-2005, 03:59 PM
i gotta jet to the grocery store

but
we will get to the (non)bottom of this later today

and a new quantum theory thread for our good friend wooly

reality is much less

the tru reality is what you are perceiving right now

Prince Rai
10-08-2005, 04:02 PM
thats it right there - how do we know its wider if we are limited to our own perception of things

hope that makes sense
we are limited.. but we go forward verrrry slowly... that is why many scientists get excited over the whole quantum thing..

http://www.hpwt.de/Quantene.htm quantum physics
http://www.quantum-metaphysics.com/essay.htm quantum metaphysics

let me explain both terms verry briefly

quantum Physics.. is the studies of the partices.. it was believd everything takes a calculated path .. ie particles go in certain directions in terms of calcilated ways.. however it was discovered mainly by Eisnstein (by mere chance) that what actually ahppens is that there are even smaller particles that do not behave accordignly..

they encirlce randomly without mathematics.. uncontrooeld behaviour!

then QUANTUM metaphysics... the meta in physics researched not the numbers and theories but the application or the consequences of quantum physics.

Wooly Noggins
10-08-2005, 04:03 PM
i just looked it up and what i get is that it is Life on Life on Life and the study of these lives am i correct ?

Prince Rai
10-08-2005, 04:05 PM
and now.. though the reality we see is through inner conviction.. it can actually be just mere perception.. however the crux is that this IS reality... but just part of wider raelity..

other dimensions are not applicable to the human eye, thus the entiree realm of reality cannot be comprehendable.

the randomness of particles compose the universe.. funny how everything still is in non-chaos! how come? there surely is a power to control randomity!

that is a concept based on facts and not mere desire

Prince Rai
10-08-2005, 04:06 PM
i just looked it up and what i get is that it is Life on Life on Life and the study of these lives am i correct ?
unsure what u actually read.. hope u read ma links..

it explains how the fact of randomness of particles has its MAJOR influence over the understanding over the universe.

Wooly Noggins
10-08-2005, 04:10 PM
unsure what u actually read.. hope u read ma links..

it explains how the fact of randomness of particles has its MAJOR influence over the understanding over the universe.
what think it is is not correct ?

Prince Rai
10-08-2005, 04:10 PM
to LHX...

" LIMITATIONS OF COMMON SENSE

SPACE-TIME

In our three-dimensional (3-D) space, we have three "degrees of freedom" to move. We see objects that occupy space exclusive of each other. We also experience time,

As a stream of sequential events, only one of which is real in the present. According to Albert Einstein's theory of relativity, our concepts of space and time do not agree with actual reality. Our three-dimensional space and our one-dimensional time are actually two aspects of a four-dimensional "superspace", mostly called "space-time". Our senses do not perceive space-time directly (4 (http://www.quantum-metaphysics.com/essay.htm#4)), but its existence is well verified through decades of experiments. In addition to Einstein's relativity theory, modern physics is based on quantum theory, developed by famous physicists such as Heisenberg, Schroedinger, Bohr, and Dirac. Relativity theory focuses mainly on the macro world of outer space, quantum theory on the micro world of the atom and its subatomic particles. As relativity theory, quantum physics also assumes a four-dimensional space in which our 3-D space and time are blended together "

JUST to indicate that reality is more than what we see

Prince Rai
10-08-2005, 04:12 PM
what think it is is not correct ?
sunny i gta go

i must continue this conversation definitely..

just post more here.. and i will answer with help of you and others

peace n blessings

Wooly Noggins
10-08-2005, 04:15 PM
what i think it is isn't correct ?

lol

anyone ?

Wooly Noggins
10-08-2005, 04:17 PM
Relativity theory focuses mainly on the macro world of outer space, quantum theory on the micro world of the atom and its subatomic particles. As relativity theory, quantum physics also assumes a four-dimensional space in which our 3-D space and time are blended together "

JUST to indicate that reality is more than what we see

Life On Life On LIfe

Prince Rai
10-08-2005, 04:19 PM
what i think it is isn't correct ?

lol

anyone ?
depends on what you think!!!
what do you think... we think many things.. but they can be flawed.. thats a majot part of life as we are trapped in physical body.. our mind is thus limited..

it doesnt mean we cant elevate ourselves.. that is why philosophy and science maths and other studies help us come together..

my new love is definitely quantum studies as it explains that life is not all black and white.. and that it must be controleed by our consciousness.. but as we onluy see ythis dimension.. there must be a higher consciousness to control all other dimensions and a higher consciousness to control sub particles and ensure 360% staYS 360%

Wooly Noggins
10-08-2005, 04:30 PM
is that a yes or no ?

LHX
10-08-2005, 04:59 PM
i just looked it up and what i get is that it is Life on Life on Life and the study of these lives am i correct ?
fuck

thats a good way of putting it

Wooly Noggins
10-08-2005, 05:03 PM
i guess it doesn't sound like a college educated wayof looking at it so it gets dismissed as some ghetto jibberish rapper guy stuff

LHX
10-08-2005, 05:08 PM
we are limited.. but we go forward verrrry slowly... that is why many scientists get excited over the whole quantum thing..

http://www.hpwt.de/Quantene.htm quantum physics
http://www.quantum-metaphysics.com/essay.htm quantum metaphysics

let me explain both terms verry briefly

quantum Physics.. is the studies of the partices.. it was believd everything takes a calculated path .. ie particles go in certain directions in terms of calcilated ways.. however it was discovered mainly by Eisnstein (by mere chance) that what actually ahppens is that there are even smaller particles that do not behave accordignly..

they encirlce randomly without mathematics.. uncontrooeld behaviour!

then QUANTUM metaphysics... the meta in physics researched not the numbers and theories but the application or the consequences of quantum physics.
scientists get excited because they are
for the most part
ignorant

every time we get better telescopes we realize the universe keeps going on and it is bigger than we thought
every time we get better microscopes we realize that there are particles which compose the particles which we thought were the smallest particles

the whole discipline is heading in the direction of acknowledging that 'randomness' is not the exception but the rule

LHX
10-08-2005, 05:11 PM
i guess it doesn't sound like a college educated wayof looking at it so it gets dismissed as some ghetto jibberish rapper guy stuff
thats what im saying tho

quantum physicists dont want to admit that they are dogs chasing their own tails

just like the emporer didnt want to admit that he wasnt wearing any clothes

in basic terms:
quantum theory is bullshit
and
it has proven that physics is pretty much useless

throw out the textbooks

LHX
10-08-2005, 05:46 PM
"Reality is that which when we stop believing in it, it doesn't go away.."

Wooly Noggins
10-08-2005, 05:51 PM
"Reality is that which when we stop believing in it, it doesn't go away.." lmao

and this is classic

every time we get better telescopes we realize the universe keeps going on and it is bigger than we thought
every time we get better microscopes we realize that there are particles which compose the particles which we thought were the smallest particles
and its funny how we need these big and small particles to live - and they need us

but yet we say .............nevermind

Prince Rai
10-09-2005, 12:47 AM
thats what im saying tho

quantum physicists dont want to admit that they are dogs chasing their own tails

just like the emporer didnt want to admit that he wasnt wearing any clothes

in basic terms:
quantum theory is bullshit
and
it has proven that physics is pretty much useless

throw out the textbooks
hmm quantum physics is not in the textbooks to start with.

that shows how ignorant we are to the truth.

when subparticles that have not been explained about to the public, are random in trems of their movement, it has profound effects on nature.

i see that you two do not see this as important especially wooly, as he has not understood the quantum realm at all.

as for life on life on life...

you see, the crux of quantum is the FACT that subparticles of atoms etc are not calculated yet do what they want.. just like humans.

quantum has fundamentally nothing to do with life, a particle is not life. the particle build up the human body but it also builds any other structure/theplanets ie!

if i were to stab somebody to death right now... that person lying on the floor would be not life, yet the body would still be warm and have enough blood etc but its dead.

quantum explains that, particles form the physical form of everything which it does.

however the nature of particles needs a consciousness to control everything. now thats life.

Prince Rai
10-09-2005, 12:55 AM
every time we get better telescopes we realize the universe keeps going on and it is bigger than we thought
every time we get better microscopes we realize that there are particles which compose the particles which we thought were the smallest particles
yep thats 100% true... by you having said that, you show you havent understood quantum physics..

just because quantum physics sounds as it does, people assume its some science jargon and confusion prompting people going to extreems by saying:

i guess it doesn't sound like a college educated wayof looking at it so it gets dismissed as some ghetto jibberish rapper guy stuff
ive never been the guy who attaches myself to science that much, but i see depth and profound truth in the quantum physics and its "meta".

THIS finding is very profound and anothjer step science has taken, which made many unbelievers believe in a "GOD".

this is because the universe needs one... not because of the religious depiction alone.. but because of scientific expedience as well.

now, some here will view this as corrupt as it goes against what they believe... but dont be ignorant to assume nothing can be right except of what people want to believe in.

truth is hard always, and when it hurts... get over it

Prince Rai
10-09-2005, 01:03 AM
and LHX ... define reality for me please...

and Wooly, explain WHY particles need US... how will you control the infinite random choice of subparticles? if you can control the human mind of everysingle person alive.. thats when i will truly believe you are the ultimate source of consciousness that controsl all dimensions that we can see and not see.

our minds are yet finding new truths... why? universe as it was explained is infinite.
and infinity with uncontrolled particles cannot sustain itself.. why not? look at how poeple would go all out crazy if i said.. the nearest KFC were giving away chicken 4 free. but there is only an amount left...

nature is build on hierarchy,, so is the universe.. we cant always see the hierarchy order.. just like we cant see smallest of particles we cannot see the biggest of realms..

peace n blessings...

im goin 2 sleep,, just woke up 2 eat 2 start ma fast.

Wooly Noggins
10-09-2005, 01:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wooly Noggins
i guess it doesn't sound like a college educated wayof looking at it so it gets dismissed as some ghetto jibberish rapper guy stuff

just because quantum physics sounds as it does, people assume its some science jargon and confusion prompting people going to extreems by saying:

What is all this ^ about ?

i see that you two do not see this as important especially wooly, as he has not understood the quantum realm at all.

i've stated about 3 times at least that i know nothing about Quantum Physics

i thought i came close to understanding but then i read these 2 post of yours just now and got even more confused

Wooly Noggins
10-09-2005, 01:14 AM
check this book out

http://img.epinions.com/images/opti/3f/93/1057353-movie-resized200.jpg

i ain't read it

but you should check it out lol

at least read the cover title a few times

Shemsu Elohim
10-09-2005, 01:16 AM
There's a reason why the G stands for God, Geometry, Grand Architect of the Universe and Gnosis...

http://www.wasatchlodge.org/assets/images/temple/staircase_cornice.jpg

http://www.wasatchlodge.org/wp-content/themes/neo-classical/images/content/sc.gif

...and a reason why no one can be a Mason if they don't "believe" in "a"(better said The)Supreme Being.

Salaam

Wooly Noggins
10-09-2005, 01:18 AM
deep

Prince Rai
10-09-2005, 06:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wooly Noggins
i guess it doesn't sound like a college educated wayof looking at it so it gets dismissed as some ghetto jibberish rapper guy stuff

What is all this ^ about ?

i've stated about 3 times at least that i know nothing about Quantum Physics

i thought i came close to understanding but then i read these 2 post of yours just now and got even more confused
no.

the fact that you have not understood my two posts suggests that you are not even listening.

quantum physics is not a mystic thing neither is it difficult to find on the net.

i put links up, yet surely you havent read them because then you would ask questions directly linked to what you read.

when you say that you are CONFUSED, is it not unwise to assume quantum is useless, as it is clear that you are not willing to understand it fully as it would undermine some of your older beliefs?

i hope timbs can also shed some light here!!!!

Prince Rai
10-09-2005, 06:22 AM
check this book out

http://img.epinions.com/images/opti/3f/93/1057353-movie-resized200.jpg

i ain't read it

but you should check it out lol

at least read the cover title a few times
you havent read it?

possibly the content as opposed to the title may confuse you furthermore.

look back at my two links and build on it slowly...
we after all are humans

Prince Rai
10-09-2005, 06:39 AM
http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/jono/negative-information.html

this is to be studied in proportions first... its the ebst way to understand quantum.. the title is misleading.. but you will understand why whilst you read!!

once you have sorta understood this.. go to:
http://www.quantum-metaphysics.com/essay.htm

and select your way through the menu, which you find through scrolling down..

it will take a bit of time, but if this does not help you.. then woah!!!

Prince Rai
10-09-2005, 07:00 AM
perhaps this too may give you a better understanding

http://www.meta-religion.com/Physics/physics.htm

LHX
10-09-2005, 08:45 AM
Prince

your observations of order and sustainability require too many assumptions

it is possible (likely) that DISorder (chaos) is the state of things
and order is nothing more than an illusion - and a temporary one at that

the reason why quantum physics suggests a supreme force is because there is a supreme force
and it was not until these hard headed scientists started finding things they could not explain on a regular basis that some of them got scared shitless and gave up their pursuit of trying to explain (control) the universe

quantum theory is not useless
but the truths that it spits out are the same as the ones found in any good taoist literature

LHX
10-09-2005, 08:52 AM
hmm quantum physics is not in the textbooks to start with.

that shows how ignorant we are to the truth.

maybe they have outdated textbooks in the uk

as for life on life on life...

you see, the crux of quantum is the FACT that subparticles of atoms etc are not calculated yet do what they want.. just like humans.

but quantum theory also states that
everything is energy in the form of particles and waves
everything is a particle AND a wave
and particles and waves cant exist at the same time

isnt that a little problematic?

quantum has fundamentally nothing to do with life, a particle is not life. the particle build up the human body but it also builds any other structure/theplanets ie!

if i were to stab somebody to death right now... that person lying on the floor would be not life, yet the body would still be warm and have enough blood etc but its dead.

yeah - quantum theory also suggests that 'life' is just a temporary illusion anyway

quantum explains that, particles form the physical form of everything which it does.

however the nature of particles needs a consciousness to control everything. now thats life.
this is true if you are trying to keep things neat and tidy
but it does not really hold together

like the being who is the gate and the gate keeper
the 'consciousness' is the particle and the movement

LHX
10-09-2005, 09:00 AM
thats when i will truly believe you are the ultimate source of consciousness that controsl all dimensions that we can see and not see.

if you arent then who is?

maybe you are selling yourself short

our minds are yet finding new truths... why? universe as it was explained is infinite.

our minds are uncovering / remembering old truths

and infinity with uncontrolled particles cannot sustain itself.. why not? look at how poeple would go all out crazy if i said.. the nearest KFC were giving away chicken 4 free. but there is only an amount left...

a bike standing still would topple over
give it momentum and it stays upright

sustainability requires nothing - it is another illusion
'reality' is that you have no reason (other than your imagination) to think of an 'unsustainable' universe

nature is build on hierarchy,,
temporary illusion

so is the universe..

another assumption

we cant always see the hierarchy order.. just like we cant see smallest of particles we cannot see the biggest of realms..

we can see everything we need to see

peace n blessings...

im goin 2 sleep,, just woke up 2 eat 2 start ma fast.
peace

this is a great topic

finally get to shake some rust off parts of my brain

LHX
10-09-2005, 09:05 AM
when you say that you are CONFUSED, is it not unwise to assume quantum is useless, as it is clear that you are not willing to understand it fully as it would undermine some of your older beliefs?

its not that it undermines

but it is a long and drawn out way of describing things that are really kind of obvious

it is the same beef that a lot of people have with 'the art of war' (where is Os3y3ris?)

when speaking in terms of a discipline as a whole
'quantum theory' is pretty much useless

unless it is used by quantum theorists as a way to give up quantum theory
(another means to a self-reflective end)

Wooly Noggins
10-09-2005, 01:30 PM
no.

the fact that you have not understood my two posts suggests that you are not even listening.

quantum physics is not a mystic thing neither is it difficult to find on the net.

i put links up, yet surely you havent read them because then you would ask questions directly linked to what you read.

when you say that you are CONFUSED, is it not unwise to assume quantum is useless, as it is clear that you are not willing to understand it fully as it would undermine some of your older beliefs?

i hope timbs can also shed some light here!!!!

where did i ever say that Quantum Physics is Useless lol

that would be silly of me to say that being that i don't know what it is

i didn't read the links because i wanted you to tell me what it is in simple words

can you do that ?

you are going way ahead of yourself and pointing out things that are not even there

Wooly Noggins
10-09-2005, 01:36 PM
you havent read it?

possibly the content as opposed to the title may confuse you furthermore.

look back at my two links and build on it slowly...
we after all are humans

it was a small joke

i'm asking you to read the title and get a clue

it says

MAKE IT PLAIN !

are you too educated to MAKE IT PLAIN ?

Prince Rai
10-09-2005, 01:54 PM
it was a small joke

i'm asking you to read the title and get a clue

it says

MAKE IT PLAIN !

are you too educated to MAKE IT PLAIN ?
i have brielfy explained it already wooly!
and the links are there to guide you as well..

as for me being educated... i taught myself and not from other person.. its all first degree

peace tho man

Prince Rai
10-09-2005, 01:58 PM
TO LHX

peace bro...

def good buildin with u too..

you see, the theory is either acknowledged deeply or it is not..

quantum gives the idea of God in scientific form... we all know there is higher intelligence.. but the form in which the being takes must take consideration.

the theory is stable but the study of it.. META can be assumptions yet also conclusive..

it is not easy to find the conclusive and explain it in depth here.. as quantum is a deep pool of facts which will take years to decipher 100%, yet at least it has shed some huge light on various topics which confuse the mind..

peace n blessings..

this topic deff got me using the dome 110% :P

Wooly Noggins
10-09-2005, 02:33 PM
i have brielfy explained it already wooly!
and the links are there to guide you as well..

as for me being educated... i taught myself and not from other person.. its all first degree

peace tho man

yo - i really didn't wanna go back all through the thread to find where you explained it

i just got onto the thread but if you don't wanna explain it no problem man - i'll move on

oh and yeah - teaching yourself Quantum Physics is impossible - you had to read it or hear it from someone somewhere at some time lol

Prince Rai
10-09-2005, 02:47 PM
yo - i really didn't wanna go back all through the thread to find where you explained it

i just got onto the thread but if you don't wanna explain it no problem man - i'll move on

oh and yeah - teaching yourself Quantum Physics is impossible - you had to read it or hear it from someone somewhere at some time lol
i read it to depth

self teaching

confucius: teacher gives one corner.. the one to be taught must find the other 3

My First Timbs
10-09-2005, 03:14 PM
had to do this.. hope it helps on the issue at hand... :)

Quantum Mechanics Explained

written by Jason Yeldell aka My First Timbs

One must first realize how extremely complicated quantum mechanics is and how far reaching it goes.. this is why it is very difficult to explain it in a few neat sentences and paragraphs because in most cases it takes about 300 pages to describe it accurately (in addition to describing the wholly metaphysical aspect of it which we are doing here!)

but i will try to keep it simply and MAKE IT PLAIN !

1) Quantum mechanics makes us look at the world and universe as if it was a creature that possesses an external body and an internal mind. This outer body of the universe and world is what we scientists have struggled with since the beginning of "time". it is the world as we know it susceptible to natural laws and verifiable thru what i call the "uniformity of experience" (like things in like circumstances always leave predicatble results !).............quantum mechanics is merely the study and theory that encompasses not this outer body of our world view, but rather the "inner workings" behind this outer body on a subatomic level! what is found when scientists study this "inner realm" is that things dont "behave" properly.. ie.. my whole philosophy of the "uniformity of experience" becomes hogwash....this may not seem like a big deal to layppl, but this is a tremendous deal to scientists and scientific disciplines that thrive on making sense of the world we live in by relying on the fact that there is such a thing called the uniformity of experience

2) quantum mechanics studies the fundamental particles thought to be the building blocks of existence and of our universe.. however, after delving into this realm it is perceived that these partiles are actually not real things.. they are nothing but "possibilities" of consciousness, but yet do affect the material world ! now thats mindblowing! that the "stuff" everything is made of may not even be real "stuff" ! In addition.. this stuff doesnt seem to follow equations and probability assumptions we thought.. so what is it and what controls it?

3) human consciousness is controlled by quantum mechanics.. thus controlled by stuff that may not potentially be "real".. thus the human experience is flawed from ever justifying what is "reality".. the human mind may be abstract simply because the material world is not material !

Shemsu Elohim
10-09-2005, 03:30 PM

As Above, So Below.

On Earth as it is in Heaven.

Wooly Noggins
10-09-2005, 03:40 PM
Rahubaat Sena

Wooly Noggins
10-09-2005, 03:41 PM
had to do this.. hope it helps on the issue at hand... :)

Quantum Mechanics Explained

written by Jason Yeldell aka My First Timbs

One must first realize how extremely complicated quantum mechanics is and how far reaching it goes.. this is why it is very difficult to explain it in a few neat sentences and paragraphs because in most cases it takes about 300 pages to describe it accurately (in addition to describing the wholly metaphysical aspect of it which we are doing here!)

but i will try to keep it simply and MAKE IT PLAIN !

1) Quantum mechanics makes us look at the world and universe as if it was a creature that possesses an external body and an internal mind. This outer body of the universe and world is what we scientists have struggled with since the beginning of "time". it is the world as we know it susceptible to natural laws and verifiable thru what i call the "uniformity of experience" (like things in like circumstances always leave predicatble results !).............quantum mechanics is merely the study and theory that encompasses not this outer body of our world view, but rather the "inner workings" behind this outer body on a subatomic level! what is found when scientists study this "inner realm" is that things dont "behave" properly.. ie.. my whole philosophy of the "uniformity of experience" becomes hogwash....this may not seem like a big deal to layppl, but this is a tremendous deal to scientists and scientific disciplines that thrive on making sense of the world we live in by relying on the fact that there is such a thing called the uniformity of experience

2) quantum mechanics studies the fundamental particles thought to be the building blocks of existence and of our universe.. however, after delving into this realm it is perceived that these partiles are actually not real things.. they are nothing but "possibilities" of consciousness, but yet do affect the material world ! now thats mindblowing! that the "stuff" everything is made of may not even be real "stuff" ! In addition.. this stuff doesnt seem to follow equations and probability assumptions we thought.. so what is it and what controls it?

3) human consciousness is controlled by quantum mechanics.. thus controlled by stuff that may not potentially be "real".. thus the human experience is flawed from ever justifying what is "reality".. the human mind may be abstract simply because the material world is not material !

Thanks Timbs

cory299e8
10-09-2005, 03:41 PM
I'm a graduate student in mathematics. People dont understand that mathematics is an art. Sure, its as scientific as scientific can be, but ultimately you cant prove anything. thats not just some tired old argument about "i think therefore i am", its relevant every time anyone thinks they actually know anything.

God is by definition something whose existence is not physical (everyone has their own interpretation of the word "God", but everyone agrees that God is trancendental). So what do we even mean when we say "God exists" or "God does not exist"? Does the number 1 exist? Does beauty exist?

(ps- I do believe in that "God Exists". My point is that to even consider that a proof may be possible is to misunderstand the nature of God, existence, and knowledge.)

My First Timbs
10-09-2005, 03:46 PM
I'm a graduate student in mathematics. People dont understand that mathematics is an art. Sure, its as scientific as scientific can be, but ultimately you cant prove anything. thats not just some tired old argument about "i think therefore i am", its relevant every time anyone thinks they actually know anything.

God is by definition something whose existence is not physical (everyone has their own interpretation of the word "God", but everyone agrees that God is trancendental). So what do we even mean when we say "God exists" or "God does not exist"? Does the number 1 exist? Does beauty exist?

(ps- I do believe in that "God Exists". My point is that to even consider that a proof may be possible is to misunderstand the nature of God, existence, and knowledge.)
true indeed.. i only use the word "god" as a placeholder for whatever people mean when they themselves talk for "god".. but logically.. god cannot be explained or defined. ( this is a fatal flaw imo)

the word "god" is symbolic of whatver people want to define and describe god as! it doesnt really mean anything logically.. its a meaningless sound! because it cant be defined!

similarly, the number 1 logically doesnt exist! number 1 is merely a symbol of a concept.

cory299e8
10-09-2005, 06:31 PM
dont concepts exist? If you interpret the word "existence" in such a way that you can say that numbers, concepts, beauty, truth, etc. dont exist, then I contend that you have chosen a bad interpretation. Certainly all those things are relevant to our lives. Certainly they cannot be seen, touched, and weighed. Thus there are relevant and valid aspects of our experience that EXIST in some way other than physically. recognising this, who can deny the existence (in some relevant but nonphysical sense) of god?

My First Timbs
10-09-2005, 06:35 PM
i see what ur saying but here is where "rational thought" and the "atheistic" mindset comes into play.

in this mindset.. concepts ( as long as they are concepts and not brought to fruition or exist in the material world) do not exist logically)

My First Timbs
10-09-2005, 06:36 PM
if something is relevant even if conceptual and abstract... that doesnt make it plop into the realm of objective existence

SoNoFman
10-09-2005, 09:10 PM
okay so
given all this higher understanding of our physicle make up and its major components of wich it consist. (Beacuse i also agree with many of the things that were said on this forum) we also accept this way of thought because in the end of all this complex politics ,u gotta believe in somethin "watever the fuck it might be". So my quetion is ,arent we just another group or society that is no dfferent from all these others that are trying to isolate themselves in originality and ultimately claim the answer?

(i dont no if i prased that question correctly but )

My First Timbs
10-09-2005, 09:49 PM
im not really sure what u are asking...

yes many need to believe in something.. but im not really sure what ur asking

Prince Rai
10-10-2005, 08:03 AM
had to do this.. hope it helps on the issue at hand... :)

Quantum Mechanics Explained

written by Jason Yeldell aka My First Timbs

One must first realize how extremely complicated quantum mechanics is and how far reaching it goes.. this is why it is very difficult to explain it in a few neat sentences and paragraphs because in most cases it takes about 300 pages to describe it accurately (in addition to describing the wholly metaphysical aspect of it which we are doing here!)

but i will try to keep it simply and MAKE IT PLAIN !

1) Quantum mechanics makes us look at the world and universe as if it was a creature that possesses an external body and an internal mind. This outer body of the universe and world is what we scientists have struggled with since the beginning of "time". it is the world as we know it susceptible to natural laws and verifiable thru what i call the "uniformity of experience" (like things in like circumstances always leave predicatble results !).............quantum mechanics is merely the study and theory that encompasses not this outer body of our world view, but rather the "inner workings" behind this outer body on a subatomic level! what is found when scientists study this "inner realm" is that things dont "behave" properly.. ie.. my whole philosophy of the "uniformity of experience" becomes hogwash....this may not seem like a big deal to layppl, but this is a tremendous deal to scientists and scientific disciplines that thrive on making sense of the world we live in by relying on the fact that there is such a thing called the uniformity of experience

2) quantum mechanics studies the fundamental particles thought to be the building blocks of existence and of our universe.. however, after delving into this realm it is perceived that these partiles are actually not real things.. they are nothing but "possibilities" of consciousness, but yet do affect the material world ! now thats mindblowing! that the "stuff" everything is made of may not even be real "stuff" ! In addition.. this stuff doesnt seem to follow equations and probability assumptions we thought.. so what is it and what controls it?

3) human consciousness is controlled by quantum mechanics.. thus controlled by stuff that may not potentially be "real".. thus the human experience is flawed from ever justifying what is "reality".. the human mind may be abstract simply because the material world is not material !
tnx for droppin that timbs!!!!

My First Timbs
10-10-2005, 08:10 AM
welcome :)

Shemsu Elohim
10-10-2005, 05:01 PM
Rahubaat Sena

:Y

Soul Controller
10-10-2005, 05:21 PM
Peace to timbs for his little essay :)

i have a question for u, just wanting your opnion..

the whole world is sub atomic particles, everything is made up of it.
them atoms are not solid.. so how can they make things that are solid?
ive read some really interesting shit by russian scientists, that say our dna transmits and recieves data,, this is called junk dna,, would it be possible for our dna with the help of our mind, make everything seem 3-d?
ill add on more later.

peace

LHX
10-10-2005, 05:46 PM
peace Timbs

lemme throw a few more bricks on this build:

1) Quantum mechanics makes us look at the world and universe as if it was a creature that possesses an external body and an internal mind. This outer body of the universe and world is what we scientists have struggled with since the beginning of "time".

i dig this

it is the world as we know it susceptible to natural laws and verifiable thru what i call the "uniformity of experience" (like things in like circumstances always leave predicatble results !)

for example - something that can be demonstrated with the eye?
you see something - describe it - demonstrate it - and i agree

we both experience it

.............quantum mechanics is merely the study and theory that encompasses not this outer body of our world view, but rather the "inner workings" behind this outer body on a subatomic level! what is found when scientists study this "inner realm" is that things dont "behave" properly.. ie.. my whole philosophy of the "uniformity of experience" becomes hogwash....this may not seem like a big deal to layppl, but this is a tremendous deal to scientists and scientific disciplines that thrive on making sense of the world we live in by relying on the fact that there is such a thing called the uniformity of experience

for example
i type the word 'beautiful'
we are both familiar with this term - with the string of letters forming the word
b-e-a-u-t-i-f-u-l
but
when asked to define it - or give an example
we run into problems
('that is not beautiful'
'of course it is'
etc)

2) quantum mechanics studies the fundamental particles thought to be the building blocks of existence and of our universe.. however, after delving into this realm it is perceived that these partiles are actually not real things.. they are nothing but "possibilities" of consciousness, but yet do affect the material world ! now thats mindblowing!

if i call you a dumb cocksucker
-even tho the words themselves are absolutely meaningless (they contain nothing real)
they are able to affect the material world - as a person can choose to react to these words

and thus:

that the "stuff" everything is made of may not even be real "stuff" ! In addition.. this stuff doesnt seem to follow equations and probability assumptions we thought.. so what is it and what controls it?

as i alluded to earlier
quantum theory rests on the assumption of 'control'

3) human consciousness is controlled by quantum mechanics.. thus controlled by stuff that may not potentially be "real".. thus the human experience is flawed from ever justifying what is "reality".. the human mind may be abstract simply because the material world is not material !
see - this is where i begin to see it fall apart

it really seems a little unreasonable to assume that human consciousness is 'controlled' by anything

the human experience of defining the environment as a means of controlling it is an illusion
it is something that has been attempted
but
we are at the point now where we can clearly see that it is not possible

thus
quantum physics ends when quantum physicists collectively say that there is a realm called 'undefineable'

ballistic
10-10-2005, 06:37 PM
yes, quantum theory is quite enigmatic, to put it mildly..when you bury yourself in analysis of this coupled with the more recent string theory, it is difficult not to at least consider an objective, omniscient figure who presides over all of these complexities that we ourselves can barely get our minds around. there seems to be an order in the arbitrary nature of our universe, if that makes any sense. personally, i would say that the dynamic of complexity can be defined as anything that suggests or exhibits a certain sequence, implied organization, or perceived existence. if something exists, then it is hard to question that it is a result of some more exalted process or controlled action. of course, as my 1sttimbs did, one can easily point to the nonsensical logic in the idea of a God, a being that is not superceded by anything else. here, i think we must accept our limitations...if something is so great, so transcendent to fabricate and orchestrate a multiplicity of dimensions and galaxies, then it is probably pertinent to realize that, as a part of this creation, we can never quite conceive of this lofty truth, but this is where it gets murky...most throw out religion because of its ostensibly inherent plagues..but if one could forget all of the socioeconomic and social bullshit that litters theology, i think one could glean some wisdom or truth regarding a systematic edifying of the idea of a God through prophetic revelations...in other words, the 'religious' God is identical to the 'quantum theory' God...

Peter Parker
10-10-2005, 11:53 PM
It's a fact that in general, un-educated and lower level educated people are more likely to believe in religions as opposed to higher level educated people.

I think that alone can tell you where god came from.

knewcheeze
10-11-2005, 12:26 AM
PEACE
geometry???

good luck!!!!

there are unseen and seen forces present in the physical universe(the planets spinning around the sun, an infinite amount of hearts beating, babies being formed in a womb etc etc)....something is powering and guiding the physical universe.......i have to give thanks for whatever is sustaining my existence....if u don't who cares...i don't......with no hard feelings...i think every one can agree that being a good person is way more important than belief........

LHX
10-11-2005, 07:34 AM
there are no unseen forces

there are no mysteries

there are only different ways of telling the same story

from that perspective
ballistics point that

in other words, the 'religious' God is identical to the 'quantum theory' God
is pretty much on point

SoNoFman
10-11-2005, 01:28 PM
im not really sure what u are asking...

yes many need to believe in something.. but im not really sure what ur asking

im just saying that indivuals hoo choose to live in the world of mathmatics are just another group like muslims or catholics

Prince Rai
10-11-2005, 02:06 PM
im just saying that indivuals hoo choose to live in the world of mathmatics are just another group like muslims or catholics
not necessarily tho...

there is a huge difference

SoNoFman
10-11-2005, 02:13 PM
the reason why i write such things is because in actual truth like one of these other cats said that things only have meaning because we choose to give it meaning. Bottom line our phylosophy is alot more iller than most ways of thot, but were just another group amongst a world full of uncertain mothafukas who claim shit so that we can live amongst each other in this physicle form without blowin the werld up.

Prince Rai
10-11-2005, 02:25 PM
the reason why i write such things is because in actual truth like one of these other cats said that things only have meaning because we choose to give it meaning. Bottom line our phylosophy is alot more iller than most ways of thot, but were just another group amongst a world full of uncertain mothafukas who claim shit so that we can live amongst each other in this physicle form without blowin the werld up.
so you are saying that, humans make things seem to be ... as opposed to explain what it is... therefore to counter world suicide?

knewcheeze
10-11-2005, 03:27 PM
PEACE

"there are no unseen forces"

okay.......is there a rope tied to the planet earth????

if there is i sure don't see it

where is the rope tied to? the north pole?

SoNoFman
10-11-2005, 03:29 PM
not necessarily how i meant for u to interprit it. more like an excuse for people to co-exist in peace while we exist in this physicle.After all , we do need to get along ,cuz
if not , bad shit happens ,not dat it already does, but u get my drift

froth
10-11-2005, 03:36 PM
God's real

cept one
10-13-2005, 01:53 AM
It's a fact that in general, un-educated and lower level educated people are more likely to believe in religions as opposed to higher level educated people.

I think that alone can tell you where god came from.
Wow thats one of the dumbest things i have ever heard. Many brilliant people have strong religous faiths. Malcolm X, MLK, Nikola Tesla, Albert Einstein just to name a few.

nut_end
10-13-2005, 07:10 AM
if geometry proves god's existence then it would go to show that he works in numbers which are arrange in accordance with a plan/program to which god would be god is a machine to which we just have to throw the wrench and see what the result is ( play a cause and look for result) its trsted out in science labs more than in places of worship for one follows the numbers and the other tweeks and plays with.

LHX
10-13-2005, 07:47 AM
the fact we are even having this discussion proves gods existence

LHX
10-13-2005, 07:49 AM
PEACE

"there are no unseen forces"

okay.......is there a rope tied to the planet earth????

if there is i sure don't see it

where is the rope tied to? the north pole?

have you heard of the word 'deduction'?

when you see a sail boat
but
you dont see the wind pushing it
do you also say that there must be a string attached to the sail boat?

if you can see the effects of wind
then you can see the wind

if you can see the effects of gravity
then you can see gravity

there are no unseen forces

Potent1
10-13-2005, 12:35 PM
the effects of any force really isn't a visual of the force, it is still an unseen force.

Mathematics is the purest universal language and it proves symmetry. Even the big bang theory isn't resolved without an equation.

I read someone say their is no symmetry to man - I disagree - the perfection that is God is the opposite to the imperfect man. Religion is man made. God is the force that created the universe. The systematic process of the big bang theory is symmetry. Particle of the pure opposite element collide to create matter.

LHX
10-13-2005, 01:02 PM
the effects of any force really isn't a visual of the force, it is still an unseen force.

through the power of DEDUCTION
otherwise unseen forces become visible

you cant see the wind
but
you can see something holding a kite in the air

it isnt that much of a stretch

you cant see fear
but
you can see a man running from the law

Mathematics is the purest universal language and it proves symmetry. Even the big bang theory isn't resolved without an equation.

blowing smoke?

Prince Rai
10-13-2005, 01:53 PM
through the power of DEDUCTION
otherwise unseen forces become visible

you cant see the wind
but
you can see something holding a kite in the air

it isnt that much of a stretch

you cant see fear
but
you can see a man running from the law

blowing smoke?
i agree with LHX

unseen forces, well...
much in the universe cant be explained as man cannot comprehend outside his physical limitations.
there are dimensions out there that cannot be comprehended as we assume that cos we cant acknoweldge it.. it therefore doesnt exist.

hmm

Prince Rai
10-13-2005, 01:55 PM
the fact we are even having this discussion proves gods existence
lol thats true...

you see.. people say God cannot exist because it makes no sense.. however since day one.. man has believed in the supreme..

now let me put in sumin... if we can believe in God why dont we agree that fairies could exist..

why would believers say with conviction that fairies cannot exist?

God is very difficult to explain... its the connection with him that makes us believe in the supreme consciousness that we are part of.

LHX
10-13-2005, 02:00 PM
lol thats true...

you see.. people say God cannot exist because it makes no sense.. however since day one.. man has believed in the supreme..

now let me put in sumin... if we can believe in God why dont we agree that fairies could exist..

why would believers say with conviction that fairies cannot exist?

God is very difficult to explain... its the connection with him that makes us believe in the supreme consciousness that we are part of.
by fairies
do you mean gay people?

Prince Rai
10-13-2005, 02:05 PM
by fairies
do you mean gay people?
lol... but u know what i mean

the idea of God has always existed, why?
cos man just needs that desire to have a God?

basically the fact that we believe in a ULTIMATE POWER.. suggests it exists.. i mean how can our most thoughprovoking power not exist when it cant be perfect..
isnt perfect.. perfect.. when it actually exits?

ok thats word play... but thats just a start to the quest to see God..

LHX
10-13-2005, 02:51 PM
lol... but u know what i mean

the idea of God has always existed, why?
cos man just needs that desire to have a God?

basically the fact that we believe in a ULTIMATE POWER.. suggests it exists.. i mean how can our most thoughprovoking power not exist when it cant be perfect..
isnt perfect.. perfect.. when it actually exits?

ok thats word play... but thats just a start to the quest to see God..
word play might possibly be the result of god trying to define himself

i know what you mean by fairies
but i do not think they are necessary

ballistic
10-13-2005, 03:08 PM
haha word to LHX, you're on some real recondite thinking.

just the fact that we have a power of speculation points to powers that we have been endowed with. we're all broken mirror fragments of the reflection of God.

Prince Rai
10-13-2005, 03:10 PM
word play might possibly be the result of god trying to define himself

i know what you mean by fairies
but i do not think they are necessary
lol exactly tehrefore we deduct that belief.. but stik 2 God as that concept is more appealing?

LHX
10-13-2005, 03:12 PM
hmmmmmm

a good point

if you want
it would prolly be easier to say that fairies and angels are agents of god

this is prolly a conversation similar to the one that took place when they first decided to create a religion

lets get them focussing on the words rather than spending their time in a natural state of freedom

Prince Rai
10-13-2005, 03:22 PM
hmm yes indeed

agents of God apparently.. then its taught that God is all powerful hmm...

but the fact that angels are similarly believed in as God and not fairies suggests their existence if we assume that talkin as we do concludes Gods existnce!

hmm id love to break the tehory of angels..

LHX
10-13-2005, 03:38 PM
hmm yes indeed

agents of God apparently.. then its taught that God is all powerful hmm...

but the fact that angels are similarly believed in as God and not fairies suggests their existence if we assume that talkin as we do concludes Gods existnce!

hmm id love to break the tehory of angels..
god is like the main veins
angels are the capillaries

we are the nerves that touch the skins surface which is why we have to be careful or we get burnt

Prince Rai
10-13-2005, 03:54 PM
peace good representation...

i see it the same.. God as the head .. and slowly his wonders coexist when our minds are at peace..

i see a peaceful hierarchy

its debatable.. but doesnt nature and the universe bind itself to hierarchy?

we can look at simplest things in nature to see this.. the hierarschy is governed by Gods laws which are flexible.. and also bound by the power of harmony which is the glue to hold things together...

angels humans etc and all other beings are instruments to show Gods energy in terms of physicality..

god has no body as that would limit him... etc

LHX
10-13-2005, 03:58 PM
peace good representation...

i see it the same.. God as the head .. and slowly his wonders coexist when our minds are at peace..

i see a peaceful hierarchy

its debatable.. but doesnt nature and the universe bind itself to hierarchy?

we can look at simplest things in nature to see this.. the hierarschy is governed by Gods laws which are flexible.. and also bound by the power of harmony which is the glue to hold things together...

angels humans etc and all other beings are instruments to show Gods energy in terms of physicality..

god has no body as that would limit him... etc
yo

i would agree with you

except that i would say that even god is bound by gods laws

and i would also say that gods laws are not really flexible

you can create men from the dirt in your imagination
if these men were to say that you have no body that limits you
would they be right?

same deal
as above
so below

Potent1
10-13-2005, 04:07 PM
blowing smoke?
Challenge = name anything that can't be defined mathematically.

Prince Rai
10-13-2005, 04:08 PM
peace.. i appreciate your belief

but when god made the law.. he is all powerful and thus must not have to be bound to his own rules.. wouldnt that contradict God?

Shemsu Elohim
10-13-2005, 04:33 PM
"The Absolute, the Abstract Space is the Causa Causorum of everything which is, has been, and will be.

"The profound and joyous Space is certainly the incomprehensible "Seity", that is the ineffable mystic root of the seven Cosmos. It is the mysterious origin of all of that which we know as Spirit, Matter, Universes, Suns, Worlds, etc.

"That", the Divine, the Space of Happiness, is a tremendous reality beyond the Universe and the Gods.

"That" does not have any dimension, and truly It is what always will be, and has been. It is the life which intensely throbs within each atom and within each sun.

"Let us now talk about the "Ocean of the Spirit". How can It be defined?

"Certainly, the Ocean of the Spirit is Brahma, which is the first difference or modification of "That", before which Gods and human beings tremble.

"Is "That" Spirit? Truly I tell you that It is not. Is "That" Matter? Certainly I tell you that It is not.

"That" is the Root of the Spirit and of the Matter, but It is not Spirit, neither Matter.

"That" overcomes the Laws of Number, Measurement, and Weight, Side by Side, Quantity, Quality, Front, Back, Above, Below, etc..

"That" is the immutable in profound divine abstraction. Light which has never been created by any God, neither by any human being. "That" has no name.

"Brahma is Spirit, but "That" is not Spirit.

"AIN (Nothingness) the Unmanifested is Uncreated Light.

"The Absolute is life free in its motion; it is the Supreme Reality, the Abstract Space that only expresses itself as Absolute Abstract Motion, happiness without limits, complete Omniscience. The Absolute is Uncreated Light and perfect plenitude, absolute happiness, life free in its motion, life without conditions, without limits.

"Within the Absolute we pass beyond Karma and the Gods, far beyond the Law, beyond the mind, and the individual consciousness which only serves for mortifying our life. Within the Absolute we do not have an individual mind, neither individual consciousness. "There" we are the free and absolutely happy unconditional Being.

"The Absolute is life free in its motion, without conditions, without limitations, without a mortifying fear towards the Law. It is life beyond the Spirit and Matter, beyond Karma and pain.

"The Absolute is Absolute Abstract Space, Absolute Abstract Motion, Absolute Liberty without conditions, without reserves, Absolute Omniscience, and Absolute Happiness.

"We have to finish with the process of the "I", in order to enter into the Absolute. The human "I" must enter into the house of the dead, must go to the common grave of the astral rubbish. The "I" must be disintegrated in the Abyss, in order for the Being, full of majesty and power, to be born.

"Only impersonal life and the Being can give us the legitimate happiness of the Great Life free in its motion.

"To struggle, to fight, to suffer, and to be free in the end, in order to get lost as a drop within the ocean of Uncreated Light, is certainly the best longing.

"One needs to be prepared within the Region of Atala, before entering into the Absolute. In Atala, the Beings are uncolored.

"A certain man who could not enter into the Absolute lives in Atala, due to the fact that he invented the two words: Good and Evil, instead of using the words Evolutionary and Devolutionary*. This man created a type of Karma, because humanity has been damaged with the two words: Good and Evil. In everything, we say, this is good or this is evil, so humanity is stagnant in all of that which attracts them to the studies of the internal values. This is why this holy man is waiting.

"We have to help people in order for them to exchange the two words Good and Evil for Evolutionary and Devolutionary.

"Within the bosom of the Absolute exists the Paramarthasattyas in great exaltation; they become exalted little by little until they pass beyond all possible comprehension." Samael Aun Weor

Devolutionary* Latin Devolvere: backwards evolution: DEGENERATION!

http://kalignosis.com/kabbalah/ain.php

LHX
10-13-2005, 04:57 PM
peace.. i appreciate your belief

but when god made the law.. he is all powerful and thus must not have to be bound to his own rules.. wouldnt that contradict God?
peace man

you are right G

0 = 2

its the way it goes

you definitely arent wrong

oh but wait
i guess the other way of looking at it
would be that god wouldnt break his own rules once he made them

LHX
10-13-2005, 04:59 PM
Challenge = name anything that can't be defined mathematically.
the fact that i could not have predicted that you were going to challenge me to name something that cant be defined mathematically

My First Timbs
10-13-2005, 05:06 PM
p = not p

LHX
10-13-2005, 05:10 PM
p = not p
hahaaaaaaaa

with two undefinable variables

My First Timbs
10-13-2005, 05:45 PM
it works tho.. :)

and its a well known logical/mathematical proof

http://www.bris.ac.uk/Depts/Philosophy/UG/ugunits9900/worksheet2.doc

LHX
10-13-2005, 07:03 PM
it works tho.. :)

and its a well known logical/mathematical proof

http://www.bris.ac.uk/Depts/Philosophy/UG/ugunits9900/worksheet2.doc
i hear you i hear you

yo timbs - you didnt respond to my last post on the last page - maybe you didnt see it

you got an interesting spin on things

SubtleEnergies
10-14-2005, 05:55 AM
LOL
I did a whole fuckin thread on things that can't be defined mathematically....

Anyone who didn't see it look it up or look at Godell's shit on the unprovability of the axioms.

Visionz
10-14-2005, 06:23 AM
Read a lot but not all post on here....but what about Fibbanaci (sp?) spirals? I know the discussion started out with triangles but isn't the spiral a much more consistent pattern w/in our universe from the shape of galaxies down to the shell of the nautilus? And isn't the mathematics consistent enough to say that they would still exist even if we weren't here to percieve it? How would you explain such consistency is such an admittedly chaotic existence?

Prince Rai
10-14-2005, 03:06 PM
hm everything can be explained mathematically??

drop mathematical answer to the CONCEPT of JUSTICE

LHX
10-14-2005, 04:00 PM
whats the math on math?

Prince Rai
10-14-2005, 04:09 PM
whats the math on math?
haha i actually wanted to mention that!!!

word though.. maths may define CERTAIN things... but how do you mathmatically represent the concept of maths...

lets see this in the terms of 1+1=2

now we assume correctly that the sum there is maths... but do you go about theorisng that in the eyes of maths?

mend005
10-15-2005, 02:26 AM
I'd like to think that Geometry can answer perennial questions like that, but I don't think its quite that simple, entertaining such notions is at best intriguing.

Shemsu Elohim
10-15-2005, 06:50 PM
hm everything can be explained mathematically??

drop mathematical answer to the CONCEPT of JUSTICE

Supreme Mathematics - Power(Justice/Severity)/Refinement(Consciousness) = Geburah, Herukhuti, also related to Mars and the Archangel Samael.

The opposite of Samael, Logos of Mars; is Moloch, who temporarily rules the world at this time(Hint: Bohemian Grove).

Klipoth Introduction pt 2 (http://www.gnosis-usa.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=50&Itemid=66)

Inverted Geburah

Demon: Moloch.

Vice: Tyranny.

Samael Aun Weor stated:

"Moloch, a luminous Angel of yore, a horrid King besmeared with the blood of human sacrifices, with the tears of parents and the desperation of mothers. Though for the loud noise of drums and timbales, unheard went the cries of their children, who passed through fire to be pitilessly immolated to this execrable monster, once a beautiful God from other times...

"The Ammonites worshipped him in Rabba and its watery Plain, in Argob and in Basan, to the stream of utmost Arnon...

"The legend of the centuries state that Solomon, son of David, King of Zion, built a temple to Moloch right on that opprobrious hill.

"The seven Lords of time state that subsequently, this wise old King dedicated a sacred grove in the pleasant Valley of Hinnom to such a fallen Angel...

"Such a fecund perfumed land, for such a fatal motive, then changed its name for Tophet and black Gehennan, a true type of hell..."

- Quoted from Parsifal Unveiled

Geburah is Hebrew for Justice, Strength, Courage.

Its opposite is Inflexible Rigor, Tyranny.

We are in the realm of Moloch when we do not know how to use our own power.

Moloch is represented in the form of a brazen bull. People in ancient times sacrificed children to Moloch.

Tyranny in Kings/ Queens/ parents: parents who teach religion with the whip in hand; Governors who use power to hurt people.

Power without freedom = tyranny.

Freedom without control = anarchy.

Prince Rai
10-16-2005, 01:14 AM
thats not the maths the west interferes with though is it?

its another form of maths that realets to language

Shemsu Elohim
10-16-2005, 03:29 PM
What I'm saying is that all Science and Religion is based on Mathematics which is the Tree of Life, called in Hebrew the Kabbalah(means "to recieve"). :Y

Buddhism/Tantrism(the Buddha sat under the Bodhi Tree), Sufism(pure Islam), Brahmanism, Gnosis(pure Christianity) and many other religions are all based on The Tree as well. :i

It's not just limited to Western Occultism and Mystical Judaism as many assume. :nonono:

Ra Un Nefer Amen Shows and Proves this in his writings as well. :list:

Look at the attributes of the Supreme Mathematics of the Nation of Gods and Earths. They're almost identical to those of Kabbalah. :yes:

I just briefly showed some of the math related to 5, or Power-Justice or Refinement-Consciousness. :thumbup:

Most of my posts since I've been posting here have been related to The Tree of Life(all of them depending on your perspective). :learning:

All these sectarian arguments are completely useless, counter-productive and even destructive(even though some building is being done). }:|

The Tree of Life itself is Man in his purest state(God(Wisdom, Strength and Beauty) or Allah). O:)

This is what all the Prophets, Buddhas, Christs, Magi, etc. have been trying to show us and we, dominated by the ego(Shaiytan), in turn would rather crucify them. :no:

Shemsu Elohim
10-16-2005, 03:31 PM
"And for every Ummah (a community or a nation), there is a Messenger.

So when their Messenger comes, the matter is decided between them with Justice, and they are not wronged."

- (Qur'an 10:47)

Prince Rai
10-16-2005, 03:40 PM
but is that not simple maths .. and not the maths on maths as LHX suggested?

LHX
10-16-2005, 03:43 PM
sometimes these forums turn into a pissing contest

words are too sneaky

Shemsu Elohim
10-16-2005, 03:45 PM
sometimes these forums turn into a pissing contest

SOMETIMES??? :o

LHX
10-16-2005, 03:46 PM
SOMETIMES??? :o
true

Prince Rai
10-16-2005, 03:55 PM
lol... hmm

KBA7
10-18-2005, 04:31 PM
Things start gettin confused about God's role in our lives by people who arent 1 w/ all.

aismani
10-19-2005, 07:47 AM
Tru geometrics god MANIFESTS creations existence,gods not about to prove ANYTHING to a kafir,gettin to the light, the core or the essence however u want to call it is mans obligation,what we call the holy war

A NAIL WANT PROOF FROM THE ARCHITECT? hhmmmmmmm...

My First Timbs
04-18-2006, 03:46 PM
explain

dollabill
04-19-2006, 03:15 AM
Yeah explain

Aqueous Moon
04-19-2006, 06:56 PM
Ha!

Good add-ons from everyone.

But, geez...LHX, blew this whole thing up.

Hurry up and write a book, Light!

LHX
04-19-2006, 08:37 PM
oh yeah

this is the thread where timbs didnt answer my question

this thread is epic

---6 months ago

why have i not been killed yet?

LHX
04-19-2006, 08:40 PM
i think the ultimate point is that 'god' proves the existence of 'geometry'

TUCO
04-19-2006, 09:32 PM
www.freepost.com (http://www.freepost.com)

galt john galt
04-19-2006, 10:19 PM
imo the idea and concept of "god" that is hinted toward when one understands quantum physics is greater and mor epowerful and more far reaching than any concept of a supernatural father figure.. it makes all of that look like backwater nonsense.. if a "god" exists, the concept is so unimaginable and greater than what religion has ever conceived!

so are you imlying that god can exist but only in a vacum of quantum mechanics and that to have any other way is far fetched?

you are there by saying that god is a mathmetician. yet science can't add up to the knowledge completeness of god. that's comparable to those equations about the graph never reaching infinity nor zero - zeno's paradox.

My First Timbs
04-19-2006, 10:46 PM
so are you imlying that god can exist but only in a vacum of quantum mechanics and that to have any other way is far fetched?

not att all.

i am purely saying that the concept of a "god" that is elduded to when one understands quantum mechanics and quantum physics is so more far reaching and "important" than the traditional concept of a father figure who is watching over us, that it makes the latter seem so elementary.

you are there by saying that god is a mathmetician. yet science can't add up to the knowledge completeness of god. that's comparable to those equations about the graph never reaching infinity nor zero - zeno's paradox

i never staed that god is a "mathemetician".. what ive been urging is an understanding that mathematics is a humanoid contruct to which we define and give meaning to. Its a human construct. but within this contruct lies inherant dlimemna and intrigue for questioning. In that questioning, people asign god to the unknown.

dif de la rev
04-19-2006, 11:08 PM
from what read of your statement, you view is that the concept of god can be proven by the coincedence coincidence factor of synchronisty with time as the variable and space the subject and object of the motion under the states of past present future through perpetual kinetic potential of quarks n nanos, that would entail the subconscious to the psyche and the genetic code of the individual?

the string theory of limited possibilities with unlimited causes?

My First Timbs
04-19-2006, 11:18 PM
from what read of your statement, you view is that the concept of god can be proven by the coincedence coincidence factor of synchronisty with time as the variable and space the subject and object of the motion under the states of past present future through perpetual kinetic potential of quarks n nanos, that would entail the subconscious to the psyche and the genetic code of the individual?

the string theory of limited possibilities with unlimited causes?

no, i was merely referring to the concept of reality being viewed thru the lens of an objective observer...the objective observer being whatever ppl want to call it.. some call it "god", some call it simply a quantum concept of an objective observer.

sweet sista
04-21-2006, 10:24 AM
While I was lecturing at a new jersey college this spring semester, a student posed a question to me about what i had just presented...

the student posed an interesting question that i thought i would post here

The point / question he raised to me was as follows

" how can you say that "god" doesn't exist or that there isnt anything
"greater" or some kind of all knowing intelligent force"? doesnt the
concept of geometry in and of itself mean that there has to be a god? (I
knew what he was getting at but i asked him to explain because i wanted the student to articulate it for the class)

His point was, even if we assume that the big bang and
all of that did occurr... and that evolution did indeed occur etc etc,,
there still has to be some "force" that governs or is in control of the
natural laws of our universe.

for example, how can man explain a triangle? a triangle has intrinsic
properties of logic tied into it! (those being in particular the
pythagorean theorum) c squared = a squared + b squared... also other
gemetric properties of the triangle have no explanation.. how does man
explain that a right angle is 90 degrees and that no matter what every
triangle will always be 180 degress etc etc...

this argument is a good one, but is indeed fallible and flawed in my view and reasoning.....

just wanted to post this here to fuel discussion....

do u agree or disagree with this student who presented a seemingly
"rational" argument for the existence of an "intelligent" force?

all praise is due to allah, heheh i sure agree with that student when he/she said

even if we assume that the big bang and
all of that did occurr... and that evolution did indeed occur etc etc,,
there still has to be some "force" that governs or is in control of the
natural laws of our universe.

sweet sista
04-21-2006, 10:55 AM
uh, legato why you're so ..argh

okay, i know things out there like s*** but i think it'll be even worse if God left us alone. he is all wise and there are reasons we may don't get.

AND

people have thier own will. people do devilish things not GOD!!

sweet sista
04-21-2006, 11:19 AM
well maam what exactly is the point of god? it seems to me that all he does is sit around have people throw up some praires put money in collection plates and takes credit for stuff he doesnt do, and pawn of all the bad stuff on the devil.

what is the point of being alive? what is the point of knowing who is good and who is not?

hard times show you who is your friend and who is not. and you really gotta trust his wisdom. legato, you can't compare his wisdom to ours. it's ain't right cuz then of course it'll look like he is sitting and doing nothing about anything.

sweet sista
04-21-2006, 11:40 AM
ok so the wisdom of god is what?

each problem a person go through, there is a wisdom. gimme a situation and i'll try to show you where is and what is the wisdom in it.

we can see the wisdom "could be alot of wisdom" after we get over a certain situation.

TeknicelStylez
04-21-2006, 12:13 PM
His fate could've been a hopeless one, the way I see it about kids that get left somewhere to die when they're born is:

If their mother is the type of person to do that to their seed, than imagine if she would've attempted to raise the child. Better off dead IMO.

sweet sista
04-21-2006, 12:19 PM
ok mmmm a child is born and left inside of a toilet

like abortion?
well, lemme see...could be alot of wisdom but we don't know which one is the real reason. However, that doesn't mean by any chance that God is agreeing on that crime.

anyway, could be one of these
1) the kid if he grew up he is going to be the next Hitler. God doesn't agree on killin' the child no matter what. but he could have let him die for that reason. OR

2) Maybe that would be better for him cuz he'll go right to heaven since god loves children. and if he meant to live then maybe he would suffered and lived a tragetic life or molested etc...

maybe if someone heard about that kid or saw that kid. that would have moved somebody to do something about that particualr crime.

there could be other reasons but these what i can think of now.

WARPATH
04-21-2006, 12:36 PM
ok mmmm a child is born and left inside of a toilet

each person/thing is born different- an individual- thus their struggle is different.

sweet sista
04-21-2006, 12:39 PM
amen to this ^

WARPATH
04-21-2006, 12:47 PM

all life we are talking about all life right
not just man, but all life right
would not the planets be considered alive ?
all molecules and atoms or whatever
were not those things always around ?

if this God created all life and life really doesn't die it just becomes another form of life or it lives a spirit life after its dead would not this creator have his hands full ?

if this God/creator of everything exist, he wants us to be responsible for our own actions and to stop blaming everything on him

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Geomtry does prove god's Existence- The Circle!

Cycles the universe works in cylcles- circles- the earth is round, the sun is round the moon is round-

The earth revolves around the sun, the moon revolves around the earth- circles! All while the earth turns it's self in a circle

Pi is infinite- the cycle is continous.

Orhan Gencebay
04-21-2006, 12:54 PM
muslimah???

sweet sista
04-21-2006, 12:56 PM
how can he not agree with killing a child but then kill the child or let the child die?

what about all the children that have a tragic life and are molested? was this one child more special than them? so god plays favorites?

he couldnt find a better way rather than killing an innocent child?

1) he didn't kill the child.
2) he knows what is the best for the child
3) Allah is testing each in the way he knows they can handle OR it's better for them. However, when the child is taking certain path and leave the other it's not like he/she would have taken another path if God has given him/her another situation to go through. i mean, he/she would have taken the same path at the end.

example, Jamal is a kid at junior high or whatever. both parents are alcoholic. Allah puts the child in a situation where he has to meet with good fellows and bad ones. the right choice, is to hang out with the good ones. however, he chooses to hang out with bad fellows who later turn him into a drugs addict.

If we supposed that God didn't put him in a situation with bad fellows. Jamal is going to stay at home with his bad parents who are alcoholic themselves.
here allah offers the kid to aks help for his parents but somehow the child doesn't so somehow he is going to end up alcoholic.

i hope you can see what i mean...

TeknicelStylez
04-21-2006, 01:06 PM
Idk, blaming god for bad shit that happens in the world is just weak minded IMO. We got free will for a reason, it's like that dumb ass movie where Jim Carrey is god... lifes so intricate that if someone were to intervene it would just fuck up the balance of shit. Like one of those movies where the guy takes a time machine back, tries to fix something, and in turn everything gets 20 times more fucked up, na mean?

WARPATH
04-21-2006, 01:10 PM
Originally Posted by Legato
how can he not agree with killing a child but then kill the child or let the child die?

what about all the children that have a tragic life and are molested? was this one child more special than them? so god plays favorites?

he couldnt find a better way rather than killing an innocent child?

If we couldn't do what we want we would be slaves. God is not a slave master.

God doesn't play favorites......humans do.

sweet sista
04-21-2006, 01:20 PM
i see but it seems al ur doing is saying god made this happen, then when shit turns out wrong saying well it isnt gods fault.

i didn't mean it in a way that means he likes it to happen he is pleased with it as you're saying. but i meant that he gave humans their free will and they chose to do it. you can't say god ain't being fair or just cuz he is giving humans their freedom unlike the slavemaster. cuz obviously if he didn't give us our freedom we won't like it.

TeknicelStylez
04-21-2006, 01:20 PM
You're looking at this shit really wrong... really really wrong...

Two army's fighting, why? Because of god? No... Maybe in the name of God, but regardless it's to fufill MAN'S agenda. Whoever win's, loses, has absolutely nothing to do with god, it's whoever was more strategic, had more men, more fire power etc. God does not intervene in such matters, especially where men are killing eachother in mass numbers...

2 twins are born, one of them has to die so the other lives... the one die's and the other lives, once again what does that have to do with god? And you speak of death like it's a negative matter, there is nothing wrong with death at all... it's a part of life just like everything else... all things most come to an end.

TeknicelStylez
04-21-2006, 01:24 PM
ummm god never fought a war period...

TeknicelStylez
04-21-2006, 01:28 PM
I'm not arguing with you, it's stupid... you think god picks favorites

If god picks favorites why would he let his own son be tortured by romans and be nailed down to a cross where he sat for a week in agonizing pain before he finally died?

You obviously have some sort of vendetta or problem with whatever conception of god you have in your mind because something in life didn't work out for you, in which case you are not open for discussion, because you aren't trying to discuss, you are trying to prove me wrong. If you are trying to prove me wrong, than you have already closed your eyes and ears to what I am saying, so I'll let you talk to these people instead.

P.E.A.C.E

but to answer your question, I don't follow written scriptures, I have my own idea of what God is. God's purpose is to create, he fufilled that purpose, now he is observing.

sweet sista
04-21-2006, 01:40 PM
legato, he doesn't create then he sits. He watches over us. but you really need to focus and notice his help when he offers it.
Don't ignore your common sense and your conscious cuz they'll lead you to him.

TeknicelStylez
04-21-2006, 01:49 PM
im not and my common sense darlin tells me god does nothing for me or us. if we need something do do it ourselves. aint no miracle comin, no divine intervention, no nothing.

This is the truth

i guess we agree on this situation than legato

My First Timbs
04-21-2006, 01:54 PM
all praise is due to allah, heheh i sure agree with that student when he/she said

all praise do to allah? that student was roman catholic!

but even more importantly, the argument is critically flawed

My First Timbs
04-21-2006, 02:01 PM
His fate could've been a hopeless one, the way I see it about kids that get left somewhere to die when they're born is:

If their mother is the type of person to do that to their seed, than imagine if she would've attempted to raise the child. Better off dead IMO.

if thats teh case,, why didnt god prevent the pregnancy?

sweet sista
04-21-2006, 02:08 PM
im not and my common sense darlin tells me god does nothing for me or us. if we need something do do it ourselves. aint no miracle comin, no divine intervention, no nothing.

honey, that ain't your common sense. maybe it's the influence of someone else or maybe other thing i dunno what but sure it ain't ya true common senses. as for the things we do and we success get them done. i think he makes sure that things work properly when we truthfuly work on something.

all praise do to allah? that student was roman catholic!

but even more importantly, the argument is critically flawed

heheh
first, i think truth can be acknowledged by anyone with common sense.
second and as for the argument, i don't know i wasn't there.

TeknicelStylez
04-21-2006, 02:23 PM
if thats teh case,, why didnt god prevent the pregnancy?

I was merely trying to explain how the baby's death wasn't the worst case scenario, you know good arising out of bad situations.

I don't believe in divine intervention, I think the concepts rediculous.

My First Timbs
04-21-2006, 06:01 PM
I was merely trying to explain how the baby's death wasn't the worst case scenario, you know good arising out of bad situations.

I don't believe in divine intervention, I think the concepts rediculous.
well see, here in lies the subtle but crucial heart of the debate!

it seems as if (and legato has driven this home so many times but it keeps getting ignored) that there is an overt and outrageous copout and double standard when one believes in a god concept

premise 1 = god knows everything and is in control of everything and is looking out for our best interest (so we praise him for this and offer our worship)

premise 2= when bad things happen, somehow the religionists "cops out" and blames it on the god given gift of free will (as if god isnt ultimately in control of the divine plan)

the religionist for some strange reason will always RATIONALIZE every situation so that a perceived subjective "good" can come out of an apparant negative situation!

call it what it is.. its merely just a rationalization!

when good things happen.. its all good...... but when bad things happen, the religionist is FORCED to quickly and irrationally try to somehow find some "silver lining" in the cloud and then proclaim that this perceived silver lining not only outweighs the cloud, but even more importantly, it was the reason god made the cloud to begin with

silliness

WARPATH
04-21-2006, 10:59 PM
well see, here in lies the subtle but crucial heart of the debate!

it seems as if (and legato has driven this home so many times but it keeps getting ignored) that there is an overt and outrageous copout and double standard when one believes in a god concept

premise 1 = god knows everything and is in control of everything and is looking out for our best interest (so we praise him for this and offer our worship)

premise 2= when bad things happen, somehow the religionists "cops out" and blames it on the god given gift of free will (as if god isnt ultimately in control of the divine plan)

the religionist for some strange reason will always RATIONALIZE every situation so that a perceived subjective "good" can come out of an apparant negative situation!

call it what it is.. its merely just a rationalization!

when good things happen.. its all good...... but when bad things happen, the religionist is FORCED to quickly and irrationally try to somehow find some "silver lining" in the cloud and then proclaim that this perceived silver lining not only outweighs the cloud, but even more importantly, it was the reason god made the cloud to begin with

silliness

See timbs here your putting values on things- you as a man believe is bad versus things that you percieve as good. It's the same putting values to a triangle versus a circle- and thus your arguments is flawed also!

Who's to say what's bad or what's good?

Are we taught right from wrong from our parents- or our we born with the knowledge of what's right- and we learn the bad things from our parents and the world we are brought into?

Free Will is the Gift. We decide what to do with our lives- do we kill or heal?

Premise 1- that's your view of God, orhow you percieive other peoples view of God.

Premise 2- that's your view on relgionists, and God's "divine plan"- on earth we our in control of bringing about god's divine plan and right now we our failing horribly

until you can except God into your life you will never be able to see how he works in your life.