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LHX
05-14-2006, 12:32 PM
is that the starting point to improving the situation?

if the system is foul
and it has you hooked on shit

and uses this in order to get you to support the system
will rejecting these elements make a difference?


do you have it in you to unhook yourself?

to take what you need and nothing more?


ive come across a lot of dudes that can talk revolution
but
cant put down the herb
and work at starbucks to support they habit

they want to see equality
but
not when tomorrow is the release date for the new joint on xbox

cant pay 45 cents for a cup of rice to learn how to cook a meal
but
they can pay $5 at fast food and fill up they belly with trash

add on

arto
05-14-2006, 12:54 PM
you've got to strike a balance. i think it's good to be fundamentalist, but you have to realise when you're getting too fundamental. i am strongly, strongly opposed to the entire system at work in the united kingdom, of which i am an irremovable part of. i hate how people spend their money on shit like fucking 3 million horsepower cars and fucking smoothie makers instead of giving away their riches to someone who doesn't know where their next meal is gonna come from. but do i want to give up alcohol? do i want to give up fast food? do i want to give up weed? do i want to stop buying music, computer games, and musical instruments? no. of course i don't. i don't, because it's a natural and very human thing to desire things for yourself. humans are possessive by nature. we like things to play with and use. as for decadence, well, i think it makes a man happy to let loose and indulge in things that are nice every so often. i certainly do, and i don't feel guilty. it's just a natural thing to want to do, and you shouldn't make yourself guilty by doing it, because it's not your fault that you have to use money to pay for all this.

Soul Controller
05-14-2006, 01:22 PM
is that the starting point to improving the situation?

if the system is foul
and it has you hooked on shit

and uses this in order to get you to support the system
will rejecting these elements make a difference?


do you have it in you to unhook yourself?

to take what you need and nothing more?


ive come across a lot of dudes that can talk revolution
but
cant put down the herb
and work at starbucks to support they habit

they want to see equality
but
not when tomorrow is the release date for the new joint on xbox

cant pay 45 cents for a cup of rice to learn how to cook a meal
but
they can pay $5 at fast food and fill up they belly with trash

add on


peace LHX

indeed many of these dudes be everywhere,

even those who see an injustice,, but still suipport the ppl who did the injustice.. they knows it wrong.. but they dont see anything else they can do.

i get pissed with ppl who say theyt dont believe in a god (chrstian/muslim/sikh) and yet,, they do whatever it asked of them
on certian holy days.. even out handing cards.. and u ask.. but u dont do god.. and u said u wasnt christian..and they reply WELL THATS WHAT IM SUPPOSED TO DO' so i think the problem is.. their belief systems.
its not what they say or think.. as the thing that has them locked is deep inisde.. they dont even know why they do what they do., they just say. coz its good, its a happy time.. etc.

going on to the materlisitic ish.
i personally.. only burn bud.

i do not give a fuck bout materlisitc shit.
it really does my nut in, when people care more for., their next top, than to help some1 who is on the street. lying down.. they cum at me with. so if i give them cash. they will buy liqour/drugs
im like so!! im helping they can do what they want.
but the same dude/dudette can spend 40 quid as u said on a computer game
or on nike/adidas knowings its made in swear factories in the far east.
but they dont care as society has them so conditioned, with what is right and what is wrong,. they might think such and such
but they cant act on it
due to what 'OTHERS' would sayto them

peace

LHX
05-14-2006, 01:50 PM
it's a natural and very human thing to desire things for yourself. humans are possessive by nature. we like things to play with and use. as for decadence, well, i think it makes a man happy to let loose and indulge in things that are nice every so often. i certainly do, and i don't feel guilty. it's just a natural thing to want to do, and you shouldn't make yourself guilty by doing it, because it's not your fault that you have to use money to pay for all this.

this is the only part i question

especially the bolded text at the beginning

LHX
05-14-2006, 01:54 PM
im not sayin giving money to the poor is the right thing to do


im sayin that claiming property and trying to possess things might not be the best thing to do

Soul Controller
05-14-2006, 02:00 PM
yeah i knowz.

but giving to the poor instead of a multinational charity
on ppls levels that wrong coz of the conditioning

so how can they even stop the materlisic shit,
when they think giving to a organisation that only gives like 0.37% of what it recieves is bad?
you need to break down social structures
we need to show people whats really happening
only then, will they stop careing bout how the current world is.
and how materliasm is what is- the status symbol - that people judge themselves too
until those who look upon as leaders, change their values
people who are lets say 85%
will npot change let alone
even thinking their is anything wrong with goods that dont mean shit


peace

arto
05-14-2006, 05:21 PM
this is the only part i question

especially the bolded text at the beginning

why do you question it? can you elaborate for me?

denaturat
05-14-2006, 05:25 PM
what you say may be an issue if the fact that I take something for myself means that I am taking away something from someone else.

Frontal Lobotomy
05-14-2006, 05:50 PM
The whole idea of taking needs to be addressed. We're taught that we have to give before we take, something that pretty much consumes everything we do. We have to give to the system in work and taxes for the majority of our lives just so we can sit back when we're suffering the indignity of being unable to make it to the toilet on time, for instance. The balance of give and take in the grander scale of things is entirely disproportionate. Partly down to the fact that once people have 'given' what they feel is ample, they'll take double what was originally contributed. We live in a system where there's an urgency for commodities, and the only way to gain such commodities is to 'take' them. This doesn't affect those in power as they're the ones seen to be 'giving' even if what they've given out should rightfully belong to everybody in the first place. Its because they're able to place monetary value on it, that it becomes a commodity, and the cycle starts over.
As to how people should combat this, it gets a little more confusing. Its not a case of no longer giving, but more looking into the issue of taking.
Right on with what you said too, LHX, too many brains talk of revolution, while lining the pockets of the multinationals because it's easy.

arto
05-14-2006, 05:56 PM
The whole idea of taking needs to be addressed. We're taught that we have to give before we take, something that pretty much consumes everything we do. We have to give to the system in work and taxes for the majority of our lives just so we can sit back when we're suffering the indignity of being unable to make it to the toilet on time, for instance. The balance of give and take in the grander scale of things is entirely disproportionate. Partly down to the fact that once people have 'given' what they feel is ample, they'll take double what was originally contributed. We live in a system where there's an urgency for commodities, and the only way to gain such commodities is to 'take' them. This doesn't affect those in power as they're the ones seen to be 'giving' even if what they've given out should rightfully belong to everybody in the first place. Its because they're able to place monetary value on it, that it becomes a commodity, and the cycle starts over.
As to how people should combat this, it gets a little more confusing. Its not a case of no longer giving, but more looking into the issue of taking.
Right on with what you said too, LHX, too many brains talk of revolution, while lining the pockets of the multinationals because it's easy.

it feels so good to talk with and read the thoughts of people on my level.

Frontal Lobotomy
05-14-2006, 06:03 PM
^^ Haha, thanks. There are a lot of people on this forum that're on the level, and can write with a little less ambiguity as well.

Easy

denaturat
05-14-2006, 06:08 PM
what level is that?

Frontal Lobotomy
05-14-2006, 06:11 PM
The Level, obviously.

arto
05-14-2006, 06:11 PM
what level is that?

that of the working class with a conscience. people who have wisdom and insight about the world around them, and don't just blindly follow institutions.

LHX
05-14-2006, 06:42 PM
that of the working class with a conscience. people who have wisdom and insight about the world around them, and don't just blindly follow institutions.

theres at least a dozen folks here like that


we still face the issue of coming to agreements

which is why i made this thread



the on going theme in this forum is trying to figure out what we are capable of and what our limitations are



although the discussions do get side-tracked at times

LHX
05-14-2006, 06:47 PM
why do you question it? can you elaborate for me?

i dont see what is natural about property
or having things that you dont need just for the sake of having it


that doesnt seem very natural

seems almost contradictory to nature



to carry more than you can possibly use?

thats bordering on being another example of absurdity

denaturat
05-14-2006, 06:49 PM
i dont see what is natural about property
or having things that you dont need just for the sake of having it


that doesnt seem very natural

seems almost contradictory to nature



to carry more than you can possibly use?

thats bordering on being another example of absurdity

not exactly, accumlating property gives you power, and wanting power is natural to humans. whether that is a good thing, that's a different story.

LHX
05-14-2006, 06:51 PM
wanting power is natural to humans

i am not sold on this


add on

arto
05-14-2006, 06:52 PM
i dont see what is natural about property
or having things that you dont need just for the sake of having it


that doesnt seem very natural

seems almost contradictory to nature



to carry more than you can possibly use?

thats bordering on being another example of absurdity

nah man, it is natural. look at other animals - magpies for example. they are known to prize things that shine, like metal rings. if you give something that looks nice to a monkey, he'll want to keep it. same with a human. if you see something pretty, you want it, right? and not on a consumer level either, you want it at the primal level of posession.
people have wanted keepsakes and nice things from the start of history. i remember once seeing a news item, about a viking comb that was found, that had the word "love" written on it - obviously a gift, and centuries before capitalism was even conceived. there must me a lot more examples out there.

arto
05-14-2006, 06:56 PM
not exactly, accumlating property gives you power, and wanting power is natural to humans. whether that is a good thing, that's a different story.

it is natural to humans, but the concept of power has been taken out of context by capitalism. you see, we are pack animals. that's why we live as family units, why we live in towns, cities, etc. why we have a group of friends. we thrive on socialising. now, it used to be, back in the stoneage, that we all had an instinct to want power, to be the alpha, especially in the case of men, but we also recognised that one of the pack is unquestionably the leader, and if he isn't, he would be deposed by a stronger man. our society has bastardised that instinct, that instinct that created a nice equilibrium between members of the pack, to make everyone want to succeed, to be the best, to keep getting better and better.
so it is technically human nature, but it's human nature out of context.

LHX
05-14-2006, 07:03 PM
nah man, it is natural. look at other animals - magpies for example. they are known to prize things that shine, like metal rings. if you give something that looks nice to a monkey, he'll want to keep it. same with a human. if you see something pretty, you want it, right? and not on a consumer level either, you want it at the primal level of posession.
people have wanted keepsakes and nice things from the start of history. i remember once seeing a news item, about a viking comb that was found, that had the word "love" written on it - obviously a gift, and centuries before capitalism was even conceived. there must me a lot more examples out there.

do magpies talk to each other about how bad they want shiny things?

do they make plans to jack other magpies shiny things?

do they have the capacity to be aware of what they do?

do they have property?

money lenders?

real-estate agents?




it takes a lot of comfort and spare time to 'want things on a primal level'



why do you think somebody would put the word 'love' on a comb?


why would an inmate tattoo 'love' on his knuckles?

LHX
05-14-2006, 07:07 PM
we are pack animals. that's why we live as family units, why we live in towns, cities, etc. why we have a group of friends. we thrive on socialising. now, it used to be, back in the stoneage, that we all had an instinct to want power, to be the alpha, especially in the case of men, but we also recognised that one of the pack is unquestionably the leader, and if he isn't, he would be deposed by a stronger man. our society has bastardised that instinct, that instinct that created a nice equilibrium between members of the pack, to make everyone want to succeed, to be the best, to keep getting better and better.
so it is technically human nature, but it's human nature out of context.


you might want to look at adding the following words to your repertoire -

- maybe
- might be
- seems
- appears to be


as in
'my studies seem to indicate that humans are pack animals'



because there is a lot of reason to believe that humans may not be 'pack animals'


dont be so definitive

PEACE

arto
05-14-2006, 07:29 PM
you might want to look at adding the following words to your repertoire -

- maybe
- might be
- seems
- appears to be


as in
'my studies seem to indicate that humans are pack animals'



because there is a lot of reason to believe that humans may not be 'pack animals'


dont be so definitive

PEACE

i come across as definitive cos i'm just saying what i think. i have observed this, and so i think it. it is definitive, but only in my mind.

arto
05-14-2006, 07:30 PM
do magpies talk to each other about how bad they want shiny things?

do they make plans to jack other magpies shiny things?

do they have the capacity to be aware of what they do?

do they have property?

money lenders?

real-estate agents?




it takes a lot of comfort and spare time to 'want things on a primal level'



why do you think somebody would put the word 'love' on a comb?


why would an inmate tattoo 'love' on his knuckles?

i understand that humans maybe have a higher level of reasoning and intelligence, but i do think the principle is fundamentally the same

denaturat
05-14-2006, 08:25 PM
i understand that humans maybe have a higher level of reasoning and intelligence, but i do think the principle is fundamentally the same

I wouln't analogise between animals and humans with too much confidence. I think it is a great question whether humans are by nature property accumulators.

we may judge the clubbers down town with their armani and hugo boss outfits, but if you look at ancient cultures all around the world, even non-materialistic hunter gatherer tribes, they wore elaborate costumes during various rituals (example, native americans, mayas, various african tribes, etc.) they didn't wear simple marxist style clothing.

also have you noticed how homeless people horde crap? cans, plastic bags, junk? why? do you think that having things of their own gives them some comfort?

I wonder, and I don't pretend to have an answer.

arto
05-14-2006, 08:29 PM
I wouln't analogise between animals and humans with too much confidence. I think it is a great question whether humans are by nature property accumulators.

we may judge the clubbers down town with their armani and hugo boss outfits, but if you look at ancient cultures all around the world, even non-materialistic hunter gatherer tribes, they wore elaborate costumes during various rituals (example, native americans, mayas, various african tribes, etc.) they didn't wear simple marxist style clothing.

also have you noticed how homeless people horde crap? cans, plastic bags, junk? why? do you think that having things of their own gives them some comfort?

I wonder, and I don't pretend to have an answer.

um i think you got me wrong, because i agree with you on all of that. you just made the point i was trying to say.

denaturat
05-14-2006, 08:41 PM
um i think you got me wrong, because i agree with you on all of that. you just made the point i was trying to say.

my bad, my response was intended for someone else

arto
05-14-2006, 08:47 PM
my bad, my response was intended for someone else

:thumbup:

Aqueous Moon
05-14-2006, 11:47 PM
is that the starting point to improving the situation?

if the system is foul
and it has you hooked on shit

and uses this in order to get you to support the system
will rejecting these elements make a difference?


do you have it in you to unhook yourself?

to take what you need and nothing more?


ive come across a lot of dudes that can talk revolution
but
cant put down the herb
and work at starbucks to support they habit

they want to see equality
but
not when tomorrow is the release date for the new joint on xbox

cant pay 45 cents for a cup of rice to learn how to cook a meal
but
they can pay $5 at fast food and fill up they belly with trash

add on

I agree with you that we should master our desires and our wants so that we can be in control of self.

It just seems that the requirement of being completely in balance in this manner is way too much to ask, right now.

That's like telling a Black Man that he is God but, he can't shit...cuz if he shits then he ain't worthy.

I know that's not exactly what you were getting at but, it reminded me of this same thing.

I mean you have to go from knowledge to born meaning 1-9 and it ain't easy.

And once you reach Born you continue to revolve...

Elijah said pray for the wealth of Amerikkka to decline. I think he said this to let us know the attracting power of material things on the masses.

It's not an excuse, but I'm just saying....we all pay taxes or we pay the people who pay taxes. Until, we can't accept, because the system is disabled, or we won't accept the luxouries of the system through our own will, then we need to make room for the ones who maybe on their 4th or 5th degree on the way to 9th(born) where we are at and awaiting their arrival.

LHX
05-15-2006, 10:34 AM
i understand that humans maybe have a higher level of reasoning and intelligence, but i do think the principle is fundamentally the same

the principle of attraction and magnetism always has something more to it than 'desire'


desire is when you have been conditioned to feel deprived of something
and it makes you want it


like when a parent shows favoritism
or expresses disappointment in a child



that child will have a desire to fulfill a parents expectations - and it dont matter if they are reasonable or not


this breeds a fleet of people who desire to do the systems bidding
even tho the system has everybody on the run feeling like criminals




the principle is fundamentally similar
but
there is more to it than that

THE W
05-15-2006, 11:20 AM
getting rid of "stuff" is not the solution. people need to make a paradigm shift from a "consumer" way of living to a "contributer" way of living.

if thats done not only will everyone be taken care of but we will even be able to keep all of our "stuff".

Soul Controller
05-15-2006, 11:40 AM
but people are bred/born to be conssumers
, its in their dna programming

people require hierachical leadership
they need to be told what to do, what to think
what is right/wrong

the reptillian(devilish) mind cant get past its basic intincts

peace

LHX
05-15-2006, 11:55 AM
getting rid of "stuff" is not the solution. people need to make a paradigm shift from a "consumer" way of living to a "contributer" way of living.

if thats done not only will everyone be taken care of but we will even be able to keep all of our "stuff".

the only option we have to 'contribute' here
is to contribute to more consumerism

denaturat
05-15-2006, 01:39 PM
what is your alternative to capitalism?

Frontal Lobotomy
05-15-2006, 01:45 PM
Communism, though in essence sounds nice, is too corruptable. The whole system needs a complete overhaul. The thing is, I've been talking this noise for years and still haven't figured a new system haha

Soul Controller
05-15-2006, 02:31 PM
capitliasm and communism is tha same


maybe not at lower levels
but at the top point
it over laps



a new system.. will come into effect soon enough

LHX
05-15-2006, 03:03 PM
what is your alternative to capitalism?

relaxation

leaving people alone

eating what the planet grows

Visionz
05-15-2006, 03:09 PM
I think the best thing you could do would be to take capitalism back to a local level as much as possible. I like that hard work and vision can earn you the type of life you seek. I see that as the benefit of capitalism. The problem is that many coperations have taken that to the extreme and turned it into a distortion. You do the world a favor in keeping your money as close to home as possible.

TeknicelStylez
05-15-2006, 03:11 PM
relaxation

leaving people alone

eating what the planet grows

a.k.a Just Living

Whats the point of having a system at all?

You can simply have your own land and grow your own food.

LHX
05-15-2006, 03:24 PM
a.k.a Just Living

Whats the point of having a system at all?

You can simply have your own land and grow your own food.

youre right Tek

but everybody ALWAYS says this isnt possible

and the only reason that has come to light why it isnt possible
is because this civilization is collectively retarded


this planet is READY WILLING AND ABLE
to provide for everybody here


END
OF
TRANSMISSION


LHX over and out

------------------------------

TeknicelStylez
05-15-2006, 03:26 PM
Beautiful man LHX

There isn't a minute that I don't look outside and go, WTF is the point of all this stuff we built?

What exactly is this system all about, if you think about it enough you realize it just loops around in this maze like fashion with no probable starting or ending point.

Visionz
05-15-2006, 03:47 PM
^ I think the picture yall are painting doesn't take human greed into account. I would like if that was the case but the world around me tells me something different.

TeknicelStylez
05-15-2006, 03:48 PM
Human greed is a product of modern lifestyle, if there is nothing more or less than just the basics there is nothing to be greedy about.

LHX
05-15-2006, 03:55 PM
you need property first before you can have greed

if you take all the apples in the orchard
but
you have nowhere to keep them

i just wait until you fall asleep
take what i need
and its all good

Visionz
05-15-2006, 03:58 PM
I think greed is at least as old as man is. If you own land, someone's gonna want to have more than you. Basically, if anything that is tangible is viewed as valuable, someone is eventually gonna come along to try and hoard what ever it is. Native Americans would steal horses from warring tribes so it's not necessarily a modern invention.

TeknicelStylez
05-15-2006, 04:00 PM
I had this argument with my mom several times.

My mom believes that most people are born evil and greedy, I believe it's something they grow into.

Visionz
05-15-2006, 04:13 PM
I couldn't tell you why it happens as I'm not that way but I've got a feeling that no matter how well you teach someone, greed will still bring its ugly ass around sooner or latter. I think it's closely related to those who crave power. An tangible object is held as value, the more value you hold the more power you have. I don't think you could ever get rid of it, only hold it in check.

LHX
05-15-2006, 04:14 PM
I think greed is at least as old as man is. If you own land, someone's gonna want to have more than you. Basically, if anything that is tangible is viewed as valuable, someone is eventually gonna come along to try and hoard what ever it is. Native Americans would steal horses from warring tribes so it's not necessarily a modern invention.

i would agree
except for the fact that there is something more interesting than property
and somehow
we have been tricked into ignoring it



greed rules this current society

only because we dont know better anymore

Visionz
05-15-2006, 04:23 PM
^greedy people at the top keep it in motion. I personally place a much higher value on spiritual worth because it can't be taken and it can't be lost unless you let it happen. But most of the world's problems have already been solved ( infinite, non-polluting energy sources, for one) but they haven't been executed because a group of energy mongols likes where they are and will do whatever it takes to keep it where we're at today.

THE W
05-15-2006, 04:45 PM
the only option we have to 'contribute' here
is to contribute to more consumerism
people do need things to live but instead of thinking how you can get more you think of how you can help others. if everyone thought on that level everyone would be taken care of.

people now have a consumerist attitude and they overconsume without giving back.

stuff isnt the problem, not even money is the problem, its greed. the attitude of entitlement taken too far.

denaturat
05-15-2006, 05:18 PM
a.k.a Just Living

Whats the point of having a system at all?

You can simply have your own land and grow your own food.


I don't want to spend my life growing food. do you know how much work it entails? you want all people to be farmers? doesn't sound like a very interesting society...what about those lazy people that want to grow? would you just give them a portion of your hard earned food? what if they steal from you? would have a police force or is this a society without cop? if you have cops, how can they grow their own food when they are busy patrolling? you would have to pay them....etc.

LHX
05-15-2006, 05:42 PM
I don't want to spend my life growing food. do you know how much work it entails? you want all people to be farmers? doesn't sound like a very interesting society...what about those lazy people that want to grow? would you just give them a portion of your hard earned food? what if they steal from you? would have a police force or is this a society without cop? if you have cops, how can they grow their own food when they are busy patrolling? you would have to pay them....etc.

holy paranoia batman


it is frightening to see peoples reactions to a real life


your body is designed to till fields
and take naps
and daydream while you work



you prefer this robotic shit?

8 hour shift with a half-hour lunch?



what do you mean by 'not interesting'?

whats not interesting about letting your mind be free?

TeknicelStylez
05-15-2006, 06:04 PM
What do you think police have been keeping the mean streets safe since men were in caves? Police are a modern thing, only been around since the 1800's and they started out as a gang. Communities are more than capable of policing themselves, it's very simple.

arto
05-15-2006, 06:17 PM
holy paranoia batman


it is frightening to see peoples reactions to a real life


your body is designed to till fields
and take naps
and daydream while you work



you prefer this robotic shit?

8 hour shift with a half-hour lunch?



what do you mean by 'not interesting'?

whats not interesting about letting your mind be free?

we think in such a similar way. that guy you said this too is expressing an all too common sentiment - that is to be disgusted and immediately discredit the abnormal. it's normal to us to have a 5-0 presence. and this is shown as a good thing to the majority of the people. so when someone suggests a lawless society then... sheeesh! how dare those people think like that!

TeknicelStylez
05-15-2006, 06:30 PM
Whats so hard about protecting yourself and your community from criminals? We live in a society nowadays where my neighbor lives less than 2 feet away from me, yet I don't even know his first name. If we lived in tight knit communities where we banded together and met to discuss areas that needed improvement than surely if there was a problem with a certain individual causing a disfunction in our small society, we could weed him out as a whole and rectify the situation by ourselves instead of paying a group of people that we don't know to police us, and condescend us on a daily basis.

denaturat
05-15-2006, 06:36 PM
we think in such a similar way. that guy you said this too is expressing an all too common sentiment - that is to be disgusted and immediately discredit the abnormal. it's normal to us to have a 5-0 presence. and this is shown as a good thing to the majority of the people. so when someone suggests a lawless society then... sheeesh! how dare those people think like that!

its a valid objection. your reply does not disarm my argument. not all people want to be farmers. I don't want to be a farmer. I want to be more involved in affairs of my society. If I spend hour working in the fields, i will have little opportunity to develop myself fully in other respects.

furthermore, you would be simply bored to death living on the farm - just eatings sleeping and procreating. in such a condition, you would be no different from an animal. human beings need challanges to develop fully as human beings. if there is no reward for reasearch, how do you expect people to advance their knowledge? you need differentiation. some people are smarter than others, some work harder, some are ambitious and some are lazy, unmotivated and unproductive. in a society where everyone just hangs out, there is no reward for the genius, and thus such individuals potential would stagnate. no one would want to be a doctor or a scientist if he or she is treated the same as an average person whose concern is only his belly and loins.

be realistic. your theories are impractical and nearsighted. you offer no meaningful solutions.

denaturat
05-15-2006, 06:38 PM
Whats so hard about protecting yourself and your community from criminals? We live in a society nowadays where my neighbor lives less than 2 feet away from me, yet I don't even know his first name. If we lived in tight knit communities where we banded together and met to discuss areas that needed improvement than surely if there was a problem with a certain individual causing a disfunction in our small society, we could weed him out as a whole and rectify the situation by ourselves instead of paying a group of people that we don't know to police us, and condescend us on a daily basis.

your society would be primitive without meaningful division of labor. you would not flourish as a civilization. look at the components of all great civilizations in history. yours would be a society of mediocracy.

LHX
05-15-2006, 06:40 PM
its a valid objection. your reply does not disarm my argument. not all people want to be farmers. I don't want to be a farmer. I want to be more involved in affairs of my society. If I spend hour working in the fields, i will have little opportunity to develop myself fully in other respects.

furthermore, you would be simply bored to death living on the farm - just eatings sleeping and procreating. in such a condition, you would be no different from an animal. human beings need challanges to develop fully as human beings. if there is no reward for reasearch, how do you expect people to advance their knowledge? you need differentiation. some people are smarter than others, some work harder, some are ambitious and some are lazy, unmotivated and unproductive. in a society where everyone just hangs out, there is no reward for the genius, and thus such individuals potential would stagnate. no one would want to be a doctor or a scientist if he or she is treated the same as an average person whose concern is only his belly and loins.

be realistic. your theories are impractical and nearsighted. you offer no meaningful solutions.

you already are a farmer

the only difference is that you do it indirectly
and you there are illusions that prevent people from readily seeing it


no different from an animal?
what about our capacity to create?
imagination?


what is genius?

work harder toward what end?
be ambitious to do what?

LHX
05-15-2006, 06:41 PM
your society would be primitive without meaningful division of labor. you would not flourish as a civilization. look at the components of all great civilizations in history. yours would be a society of mediocracy.

flourish as a civilization?

what does that mean?


is this flourishing?

CherChezLaMarauder
05-15-2006, 06:49 PM
so why doesn't everybody just be a bum? forget about careers and prosperity and knowledge; just be a flat out bum that just preaches until he dies. there's a thin line between knowledge and human nature.

denaturat
05-15-2006, 06:52 PM
is this flourishing?

what do you mean by "this"? modern north american society? if that's what you mean, I didn't comment on that. Rejecting one view does imply acceptance of another.

and what I mean by flourishing is advancement in knowledge, science, philosophy, standard of living, culture, art, etc.

INF
05-15-2006, 06:52 PM
Funny how the things that you own will always end up owning you.

arto
05-15-2006, 06:52 PM
its a valid objection. your reply does not disarm my argument. not all people want to be farmers. I don't want to be a farmer. I want to be more involved in affairs of my society. If I spend hour working in the fields, i will have little opportunity to develop myself fully in other respects.

furthermore, you would be simply bored to death living on the farm - just eatings sleeping and procreating. in such a condition, you would be no different from an animal. human beings need challanges to develop fully as human beings. if there is no reward for reasearch, how do you expect people to advance their knowledge? you need differentiation. some people are smarter than others, some work harder, some are ambitious and some are lazy, unmotivated and unproductive. in a society where everyone just hangs out, there is no reward for the genius, and thus such individuals potential would stagnate. no one would want to be a doctor or a scientist if he or she is treated the same as an average person whose concern is only his belly and loins.

be realistic. your theories are impractical and nearsighted. you offer no meaningful solutions.

you present a good arguement, though i don't think you quite know what my perfect world would be. i think there should be some people who are definitely farmers, with herds of cattle, goats, sheep, etc. i think though, that every family/household should have their own plot of land in an allotment to grow their own produce, so they can be truly independant, but still have the security of a society of close knit communities.

i believe in living in a more primitive and primal way, but i also believe in utilising the technology and knowledge we have developed, and also encouraging new technologies and ideas to be implemented and accepted into society. this means, for example, we would still have cars, but they would be green cars or electric cars, and we would only use them for long journeys, and not a trip to the shops. (which are obsolete in my utopia anyway)

arto
05-15-2006, 06:53 PM
Funny how the things that you own will always end up owning you.

you are jack's flagrant disregard for intellectual property.

arto
05-15-2006, 06:55 PM
so why doesn't everybody just be a bum? forget about careers and prosperity and knowledge; just be a flat out bum that just preaches until he dies. there's a thin line between knowledge and human nature.

if everyone didn't work, our society as it is would collapse. i am trying to propose a society where we could survive if we didn't work, just not as well as if we did.

denaturat
05-15-2006, 06:57 PM
by the way, for those of you philosopher types who are interested, Plato's Republic is fascinating book on the topic of organizing society and on the idea of justice. I don't agree with a lot in it, and likely you will not either, but the book is phenomenal. it is actually quite easy to read. I recommend it.

TeknicelStylez
05-15-2006, 06:58 PM
its a valid objection. your reply does not disarm my argument. not all people want to be farmers. I don't want to be a farmer. I want to be more involved in affairs of my society. If I spend hour working in the fields, i will have little opportunity to develop myself fully in other respects.

furthermore, you would be simply bored to death living on the farm - just eatings sleeping and procreating. in such a condition, you would be no different from an animal. human beings need challanges to develop fully as human beings. if there is no reward for reasearch, how do you expect people to advance their knowledge? you need differentiation. some people are smarter than others, some work harder, some are ambitious and some are lazy, unmotivated and unproductive. in a society where everyone just hangs out, there is no reward for the genius, and thus such individuals potential would stagnate. no one would want to be a doctor or a scientist if he or she is treated the same as an average person whose concern is only his belly and loins.

be realistic. your theories are impractical and nearsighted. you offer no meaningful solutions.

Read the Protocols of Zion

You are a Zionist

arto
05-15-2006, 06:59 PM
by the way, for those of you philosopher types who are interested, Plato's Republic is fascinating book on the topic of organizing society and on the idea of justice. I don't agree with a lot in it, and likely you will not either, but the book is phenomenal. it is actually quite easy to read. I recommend it.

have you read H.G Wells's "utopia"?

denaturat
05-15-2006, 07:01 PM
you present a good arguement, though i don't think you quite know what my perfect world would be. i think there should be some people who are definitely farmers, with herds of cattle, goats, sheep, etc. i think though, that every family/household should have their own plot of land in an allotment to grow their own produce, so they can be truly independant, but still have the security of a society of close knit communities.

i believe in living in a more primitive and primal way, but i also believe in utilising the technology and knowledge we have developed, and also encouraging new technologies and ideas to be implemented and accepted into society. this means, for example, we would still have cars, but they would be green cars or electric cars, and we would only use them for long journeys, and not a trip to the shops. (which are obsolete in my utopia anyway)

that's a better explanation. though I still don't see how you could do away with capitalsit economy in your society and division of labor. i understand your ideal society as essentially a free market economy but one that is very highly regulated by laws that prect the evironment and redistribute wealth in a way that discourages greed and provides for the those less able to earn more.

denaturat
05-15-2006, 07:02 PM
have you read H.G Wells's "utopia"?

not utopia. why?

TeknicelStylez
05-15-2006, 07:03 PM
laws laws laws

What are laws? Who created these laws? Why do we need them?

Stop creating facts based on observations and start questioning what it is you are looking at.

CherChezLaMarauder
05-15-2006, 07:03 PM
communism or capitalism, pick your poison and shuttup

denaturat
05-15-2006, 07:07 PM
laws laws laws

What are laws? Who created these laws? Why do we need them?

Stop creating facts based on observations and start questioning what it is you are looking at.

you make no sense. you're not making an argument and you are not questioning anything in a menaingful why. what problem do you have with laws? tell me specifically what is wrong with laws?

arto
05-15-2006, 07:09 PM
that's a better explanation. though I still don't see how you could do away with capitalsit economy in your society and division of labor. i understand your ideal society as essentially a free market economy but one that is very highly regulated by laws that prect the evironment and redistribute wealth in a way that discourages greed and provides for the those less able to earn more.

i actually believe in a lawless society, where words like "economy" are defunct and left to the encylopedia of obscurity

arto
05-15-2006, 07:10 PM
not utopia. why?

recommended if you liked plato's work. it's basically his vision of a perfect planet.

TeknicelStylez
05-15-2006, 07:10 PM
you make no sense. you're not making an argument and you are not questioning anything in a menaingful why. what problem do you have with laws? tell me specifically what is wrong with laws?

If what I'm saying is making no sense than you aren't ready to understand.

TeknicelStylez
05-15-2006, 07:11 PM
The only laws that exist are the laws of nature.

arto
05-15-2006, 07:12 PM
If what I'm saying is making no sense than you aren't ready to understand.

dude, that's a lame thing to say, and really a poor excuse. if you can't explain yourself or at least try you shouldn't say things that are going to confuse people.

denaturat
05-15-2006, 07:13 PM
The only laws that exist are the laws of nature.

and what are the laws of nature?

TeknicelStylez
05-15-2006, 07:15 PM
I'm sure LHX and a few other people will UNDERSTAND me quite clear. If you don't like what I say than it wasn't directed towards you in the first place. Don't attempt to limit my speech, that just goes to show what type of person you really are.

CherChezLaMarauder
05-15-2006, 07:16 PM
don't you imbesils realize that our society was built on religon and ignorance? what makes you think you can do a complete 180 after thousands of years of complacency?

arto
05-15-2006, 07:17 PM
I'm sure LHX and a few other people will UNDERSTAND me quite clear. If you don't like what I say than it wasn't directed towards you in the first place. Don't attempt to limit my speech, that just goes to show what type of person you really are.

i think the opposite is true - you're limiting your own. it's actually quite hard to understand what you're talking about because you're generally quite vague. that in turn inflames people, then when you lash back at them with all this high and mighty shit, it makes you look like a dick and makes them pissed off. philosophise, with my blessing, but you should be prepared to explain your thoughts to the layman of your mind, e.g everyone else apart from you.

arto
05-15-2006, 07:18 PM
don't you imbesils realize that our society was built on religon and ignorance? what makes you think you can do a complete 180 after thousands of years of complacency?

i beleive my utopia is possible, but only through generations of hard work to get us there.

TeknicelStylez
05-15-2006, 07:21 PM
what makes you think you can do a complete 180

What makes you think WE are going to do anything.

A grand house made of all the expensive materials found in the world no matter how sturdy will surely collapse eventually if the foundation is weak.

TeknicelStylez
05-15-2006, 07:23 PM
i think the opposite is true - you're limiting your own. it's actually quite hard to understand what you're talking about because you're generally quite vague. that in turn inflames people, then when you lash back at them with all this high and mighty shit, it makes you look like a dick and makes them pissed off. philosophise, with my blessing, but you should be prepared to explain your thoughts to the layman of your mind, e.g everyone else apart from you.

I don't lash at anybody, it's you that is lashing at me, I'm simply making statements on an internet forum. Whatever context you want to notice is a reflection of your own state of mind.

denaturat
05-15-2006, 07:26 PM
I don't lash at anybody, it's you that is lashing at me, I'm simply making statements on an internet forum. Whatever context you want to notice is a reflection of your own state of mind.

are you saying I lash out at people?

CherChezLaMarauder
05-15-2006, 07:26 PM
and you do you really think generations and generations of people are going to sacrifice the sole life they are blessed with? especially with all the luxuries and potential prosperities that lies all around them get real. i spoke on this in a thread just like this recently. revolting is an instinct, not an idea. I don't know where you reside, but if you're here on the internet able to express your opinion or even have the luxury to have a computer to communicate on, you don't have it that bad. Revolting is an act of a group of people with their backs against the wall feeling no where to turn. I strongly doubt that any of us here on this forum are experiencing that

arto
05-15-2006, 07:26 PM
I don't lash at anybody, it's you that is lashing at me, I'm simply making statements on an internet forum. Whatever context you want to notice is a reflection of your own state of mind.
y'see this's what i'm talking about. make your statements clearer, then people won't need to question them as much. like what you said, especially the last snetence, could be taken a number of ways, really.

arto
05-15-2006, 07:28 PM
and you do you really think generations and generations of people are going to sacrifice the sole life they are blessed with? especially with all the luxuries and potential prosperities that lies all around them get real. i spoke on this in a thread just like this recently. revolting is an instinct, not an idea. I don't know where you reside, but if you're here on the internet able to express your opinion or even have the luxury to have a computer to communicate on, you don't have it that bad. Revolting is an act of a group of people with their backs against the wall feeling no where to turn. I strongly doubt that any of us here on this forum are experiencing that

i think you're right. people would need to have the sort of society we are suggesting forced on them.

also, my back isn't quite yet against the wall, maybe a few inches away though.

CherChezLaMarauder
05-15-2006, 07:28 PM
or if you truly believe what you're saying, give up all the unnecessary possesions and stimulants you own right now as we speak

denaturat
05-15-2006, 07:29 PM
recommended if you liked plato's work. it's basically his vision of a perfect planet.

nice, I'll look into it some time

arto
05-15-2006, 07:30 PM
or if you truly believe what you're saying, give up all the unnecessary possesions and stimulants you own right now as we speak

the point is you can't. i think it's good being fundamental, but it's not good being too fundamental. like if i was purely fundamental with my beliefs, i'd be smashing this computer up. you can truly believe in something without getting into semantics about it, and without going too far as to inconvenience your life, because you won't get anywhere.

TeknicelStylez
05-15-2006, 07:31 PM
y'see this's what i'm talking about. make your statements clearer, then people won't need to question them as much. like what you said, especially the last snetence, could be taken a number of ways, really.

Did you ever think that that's the point? The difference between me and you is, I'm making statements that spark thought. You on the other hand are stating "facts" in an attempt to win an argument. Right now you are trying to draw me into an argument, unsucessfully at that, because I'm no longer going to respond to you.


Marauder, PEACE.

I understand where you are coming from, but what I'm trying to say is, I doubt people are going to just give up their luxuries too, but in a couple years luxuries aren't going to exist.

LHX
05-15-2006, 07:36 PM
there is some good points being made here

but
the discussion is getting nowhere


we should flush out the points being made here

theres about a half dozen people comin from different angles


we are talking about
possessions
laws
ambitions
etc

lets narrow it all down

TeknicelStylez
05-15-2006, 07:37 PM
break it down for us L

arto
05-15-2006, 07:37 PM
Did you ever think that that's the point? The difference between me and you is, I'm making statements that spark thought. You on the other hand are stating "facts" in an attempt to win an argument. Right now you are trying to draw me into an argument, unsucessfully at that, because I'm no longer going to respond to you.


Marauder, PEACE.

I understand where you are coming from, but what I'm trying to say is, I doubt people are going to just give up their luxuries too, but in a couple years luxuries aren't going to exist.

dude! i am so not trying to argue with you! i'm just trying to explain to you why people are getting a little tetchy at you!

be cool, my friend. there's no hard feelings on this side. peace.

arto
05-15-2006, 07:38 PM
LHX, i wanna hear more from your brain, my friend. i've only been here a few days and i already sense the intellect behind your sayings. why don't you start us off with something?

TeknicelStylez
05-15-2006, 07:38 PM
None on this side either.

I don't mind if people get angry at my statements, it's their view point. As you can see by my text I'm very calm (lol).

I appologize if I come off high and mighty, I assure you I love you all like you were my flesh and blood and would never place you above or below me.

CherChezLaMarauder
05-15-2006, 07:39 PM
me personally, i wouldn't smash the computer. i would embrace it. disregarding the shallow (but humorous) things we receive on the net, this is an extremely powerful tool. whats makes this world go round are consumers. corporations sell and we buy. well take a good look at the crap society buys. quite frankly 95 to 99% of it we don't need, but hey we like these things. I like my ipod, i like my guitar, i like my TV and my Acura. I like my nextel phone, i like pizza and strawberry shakes. So call me a victim of the Matrix as you please lol

arto
05-15-2006, 07:39 PM
me personally, i wouldn't smash the computer. i would embrace it. disregarding the shallow (but humorous) things we receive on the net, this is an extremely powerful tool. whats makes this world go round are consumers. corporations sell and we buy. well take a good look at the crap society buys. quite frankly 95 to 99% of it we don't need, but hey we like these things. I like my ipod, i like my guitar, i like my TV and my Acura. I like my nextel phone, i like pizza and strawberry shakes. So call me a victim of the Matrix as you please lol

yeah dude, that's how i feel. i think you think in a similar way to me!

arto
05-15-2006, 07:40 PM
None on this side either.

I don't mind if people get angry at my statements, it's their view point. As you can see by my text I'm very calm (lol).

I appologize if I come off high and mighty, I assure you I love you all like you were my flesh and blood and would never place you above or below me.

is cool. you gain my respect for believing in what you say, brother.

LHX
05-15-2006, 07:42 PM
break it down for us L

hahaaaaa
90 posts is a lot to go thru


the main question seems to be this

what constitutes 'life on earth'?

what are these 'arts and sciences' that people deem important?

is life itself not an art and science?

what is the point of proceeding if we cannot even master a sustainable existence on this planet?


and as for my original hunch -
if we shunned and rejected luxury and desire - we would be a lot better able to have a sustainable existence


maybe everybody should state in a few words what their point of view is on those issues

maybe we need to open a new thread

marauder
arto
denaturat
tek

drop some feedback

where are we disagreeing?

TeknicelStylez
05-15-2006, 07:46 PM
me personally, i wouldn't smash the computer. i would embrace it. disregarding the shallow (but humorous) things we receive on the net, this is an extremely powerful tool. whats makes this world go round are consumers. corporations sell and we buy. well take a good look at the crap society buys. quite frankly 95 to 99% of it we don't need, but hey we like these things. I like my ipod, i like my guitar, i like my TV and my Acura. I like my nextel phone, i like pizza and strawberry shakes. So call me a victim of the Matrix as you please lol

I understand 100%

The thing is I don't have most of these things, I think internet is probably one of my only luxuries. I don't even have food as a luxury, just before I went to the supermarket with my family's last 7 dollars till friday to attempt to purchase something for dinner with just 3 of those dollars so that my mother can use the other 4 to put what little amount of gas she possibly can in her tank to get to work. Nothing luxurious about my lifestyle. I don't own a home phone, I don't own a car, basically since I was about 12 years old my only possessions were the clothes on my back. I would just bounce back and forth between homes with a small garbage bag containing a couple of my belongings, but I never held onto a possession for over a year.

TeknicelStylez
05-15-2006, 07:48 PM
I remember at one point in time my room was just completely empty with a sleeping bag in the corner, I lived like that for almost a year.

CherChezLaMarauder
05-15-2006, 07:50 PM
are you suggesting that we misused our God given intelligence? that we corrupted it with greed and gluttony? that we used it for our own personal advantage instead of shedding light on the ignorant? that we forgot to show peace and love to all instead of going by Survival of The Fittest.


In lamest terms, that's what i think went wrong

CherChezLaMarauder
05-15-2006, 07:54 PM
trust me dude, just about everybody spends money they don't have. they have all this shit but they're choking trying to stay above water, struggling to pay bills and paying their debts. it's disgusting and i hate it with a passion. the consumers are highly responsible for their own dumb actions and corporations are blood suckers. all this because people try to fill a certain void that they can't pin point what it is.

that void is from within. i can't even put it into words what it is, but i certainly feel it inside me

TeknicelStylez
05-15-2006, 07:56 PM
Peace and Love to all instead of going by Survival of The Fittest.

I'd say that is definately one of the main problems in the downfall of society. Everybody has such a dog eat dog mentality, and I understand the origin of it all... It's from other people's dog eat dog mentality's. Think about it... Did you ever have somebody come up to you and say something along these lines, "I used to try to help people but everybody only cares about themselves and you wind up getting stepped on, so now I only look out for myself.", Well they just explained why everybody only looks out for themselves, because they have the same mentality as them!

arto
05-15-2006, 07:59 PM
hahaaaaa
90 posts is a lot to go thru


the main question seems to be this

what constitutes 'life on earth'?

what are these 'arts and sciences' that people deem important?

is life itself not an art and science?

what is the point of proceeding if we cannot even master a sustainable existence on this planet?


and as for my original hunch -
if we shunned and rejected luxury and desire - we would be a lot better able to have a sustainable existence


maybe everybody should state in a few words what their point of view is on those issues

maybe we need to open a new thread

marauder
arto
denaturat
tek

drop some feedback

where are we disagreeing?

well i think we're disagreeing because we don't know where the others are at. so i'll tell you all what i think, and you can take what you want.

i think we need to break society down, socially and politically, right down to the roots. i think we should all live in mud huts on the beaches of liberia. seriously. we should grow crops, and sing songs and sleep. we should gain wisdom from our brothers and sisters and our elders. we should pass wisdom onto others. we should respect all mankind and all nature. we should have no laws, no police and no money, or rather, money only in moderation (but thats a different discussion altogether)
we should study the stars, the ocean, the sun, the seasons, the animals, the plants. we should love one another as we would like to be loved. we should get rid of all the trappings of 21st century life.
to do this, though, we need a massive, and i mean collosal societal overhaul, which will take decades, even centuries to complete. this means that us, the freethinkers of a linear thinking society, will never see our utopia, but will will plant the seeds for our children to carry on our legacy, to finally arrive at a utopian ideal.

what is the point of proceeding if we cannot even master a sustainable existence on this planet?

i totally agree with this statement, and i beleive some core issues should be addressed before we can think about that next ivory backscratcher.

if we shunned and rejected luxury and desire - we would be a lot better able to have a sustainable existence

i think we could, i think it's possible, but you need tremdous willpower and the co-operation of everyone else to make it work.

TeknicelStylez
05-15-2006, 07:59 PM
trust me dude, just about everybody spends money they don't have. they have all this shit but they're choking trying to stay above water, struggling to pay bills and paying their debts. it's disgusting and i hate it with a passion. the consumers are highly responsible for their own dumb actions and corporations are blood suckers. all this because people try to fill a certain void that they can't pin point what it is.

that void is from within. i can't even put it into words what it is, but i certainly feel it inside me

I feel whole, I just wish I could eat more! The only thing I desire is to be able to get up and build with my people everyday. If I could come home from work hit somebody up and create a cypher and freestyle for 1 or 2 hours I'm happy, and I can go to sleep feeling good. Material items are of no conscern to me.

CherChezLaMarauder
05-15-2006, 08:02 PM
hell yea this a cut-throat world. personally i've done alot of deeds and given helping hands to friends and family. Yet the only thing that stuck with them was the negativity that i might of provided them. People always remember the bad shit and NEVER the good; and that's word to me.

this is a "what about me?" world, and that's never going to change. which is why this thread is obsolete; but it's healthy to talk about this kind of shit anyway

CherChezLaMarauder
05-15-2006, 08:04 PM
I feel whole, I just wish I could eat more! The only thing I desire is to be able to get up and build with my people everyday. If I could come home from work hit somebody up and create a cypher and freestyle for 1 or 2 hours I'm happy, and I can go to sleep feeling good. Material items are of no conscern to me.


i couldnt' agree with you more. unfortunately all of that was taken away from me; so the whip, good credit and money in my pocket doesn't do much for me at all. it's all good tho, marauder staying strong

arto
05-15-2006, 08:05 PM
hell yea this a cut-throat world. personally i've done alot of deeds and given helping hands to friends and family. Yet the only thing that stuck with them was the negativity that i might of provided them. People always remember the bad shit and NEVER the good; and that's word to me.

this is a "what about me?" world, and that's never going to change. which is why this thread is obsolete; but it's healthy to talk about this kind of shit anyway

i don't think the thread is obsolete. if we can change at least one person's perspective on the way they lead their life, that's enough. if we can get people to challenge the very core essence of their society, then we're not pumping hot air in vain.

LHX
05-15-2006, 08:09 PM
building with yall motherfuckers is the only good thing i experience most days

denaturat
05-15-2006, 09:18 PM
i don't think the thread is obsolete. if we can change at least one person's perspective on the way they lead their life, that's enough. if we can get people to challenge the very core essence of their society, then we're not pumping hot air in vain.

but if you want topple ideas you need to have the ability to rebuild. if I say down with A, it is eqully important to be able to show that B is better. if you are in the middle of the ocean on shoddy wooden raft that goes nowhere, you need to find a new vessel before you completely distroy the one you are using.

all of this that takes a lot of learning and thinking. it's something that I personally pursue, but I have not yet figured out with absolute certainty how an ideal society should be organized. the journey of investigating involves questioning everything, not just the status quo but the proposed alternatives.

when i question your posts it is not for the purpose of attacking you personally put for the purpose of testing your ideas to see if they withstand objections. that is a basic dialectic method of ancient greeks such as socrates and is just as useful today. in the process you learn, even where you disagree with someone.

Visionz
05-16-2006, 01:23 AM
^so what conclusions have you come to so far with your ponderings?

galt john galt
05-16-2006, 02:48 AM
by shunning desire, wouldn't that like diminsh a vital part of existence?, yeah late to discussion and all. but to shun desire is not on par with luxury.

desire what's good. not all luxuries good. it becomes a value question. it's value to you and what kind of future investment you can get out.

in this day and age, the basics are luxuries in the foirst world - which purports the biggest machine that sells them.

before you acquire an item you have some desire. it doesn't have to be over the top luxury. that would be not discerning wants/needs from crass consumerism.

LHX
05-16-2006, 07:10 AM
by shunning desire, wouldn't that like diminsh a vital part of existence?, yeah late to discussion and all. but to shun desire is not on par with luxury.

desire what's good. not all luxuries good. it becomes a value question. it's value to you and what kind of future investment you can get out.

in this day and age, the basics are luxuries in the foirst world - which purports the biggest machine that sells them.

before you acquire an item you have some desire. it doesn't have to be over the top luxury. that would be not discerning wants/needs from crass consumerism.

what is your insight on the difference between desire and need?

denaturat
05-16-2006, 11:24 AM
^so what conclusions have you come to so far with your ponderings?

I realised that political philosophy requires very deep understanding of many issues. Begin by trying to figure out what makes people happy. Not just you, but others as well. Then try to figure out how to organize society in such a way that maximises the potential for a broad spectrum of personalities to achieve a good level of happiness i. You also need to have at least a basic appreciation of economics to understand the possible practical implications of organizing society in a particular way. What you may have initially thought would be a great idea might have nasty unintended consequences. Finally, it is important to know history in order to have a practical appreciation of possible consequences of various political systems. Do not ignore facts. All in all, you need to be very careful not to be guided by idealism alone. Some things work well on paper but when scrutinised carefully may be seriously flawed.

Visionz
05-16-2006, 11:59 AM
I realised that political philosophy requires very deep understanding of many issues. Begin by trying to figure out what makes people happy. Not just you, but others as well. Then try to figure out how to organize society in such a way that maximises the potential for a broad spectrum of personalities to achieve a good level of happiness i. You also need to have at least a basic appreciation of economics to understand the possible practical implications of organizing society in a particular way. What you may have initially thought would be a great idea might have nasty unintended consequences. Finally, it is important to know history in order to have a practical appreciation of possible consequences of various political systems. Do not ignore facts. All in all, you need to be very careful not to be guided by idealism alone. Some things work well on paper but when scrutinised carefully may be seriously flawed. Well thought out. I couldn't agree more. I dont think you can force an entirely different life style on a whole nation of people and expect to them to accept it without serious resistance. I think a lot of the things you think a society would need are answered by capitalism. It provides people the opportunity to do whatever it is that they desire. The problem is that corperate greed has driven everything to a state of excess that is balanced out by abject poverty. I'd like to see things come closer to the middle. All my thoughts revolve around ways to make it happen.

denaturat
05-16-2006, 12:15 PM
Well thought out. I couldn't agree more. I dont think you can force an entirely different life style on a whole nation of people and expect to them to accept it without serious resistance. I think a lot of the things you think a society would need are answered by capitalism. It provides people the opportunity to do whatever it is that they desire. The problem is that corperate greed has driven everything to a state of excess that is balanced out by abject poverty. I'd like to see things come closer to the middle. All my thoughts revolve around ways to make it happen.

I think this may be solved within the current system, for example legislating laws that are environmentally friendly and that adress the practical inequality of opportunity. Better funding for those who cannot afford education (not just loans, but funding and allowance like they have in parts of Europe). When more young people are in school and have at least some money from the government, they will be less involved in crime, thus there would be less strain on the criminal justice system.

I'm cool with tax breaks for small private corporations, but something has to be done with the way public corporations use their money. There could be more socially beneficial uses for that. I don't think that white collar types should make the same money as a grocery store cashier. They're jobs require skill and involve stress and they should be compensated proportionally.

I think the bottom line is gradual redistribution of wealth, but a redistribution that is still fair and practical. In canada for example, skilled workers make pretty good money. I think they should be paid well. I also think it is fair for a professional to be paid a bit more.

the obstacle: we do not have parties which inspire confidence that they will deliver such a comprehensive package. it is still a radical change. and even if you have a good party, people need to vote them in. only then can they pass laws I outlined above.

I know a lot of people here criticise consumerist society and I see the argument. but liberal capitalist democracy does not prevent anyone from leading a spiritual no materialistic lifestyle. Even if you overthrow the system, do you think all will suddenly achieve enlightenement and become poets and philosphers? there are still many people who are happy with multicoloured cell phones, old navy and clubbing. capitalism exists because people want stuff. although, I admit capitalism has a way of convincing people that they should buy more than they need. well, we don't have to give in to advertising, do we? it's choice.

I also find that as you succeed in modern society, that is even if you start at the bottom and move your way up, there are less incentives for you to make changes in favour of those that are less advantaged. you get a false sense of entitlement. but maybe even though you were poor, there were subtle advantages you had that others didn't. maybe you were smarter or more motivated. but just becuase you are it does not mean others do not deserve the same level of happiness as you do. there must be a minimum standard for all.

...this is all open to debate.

LHX
05-16-2006, 12:21 PM
this discussion still leaves a lot of issues out

if we are gonna talk about something sustainable
it has to be acknowledged that everything we have built in the past requires more and more resources for maintenance

cities are literally falling apart

also
i dont think its wise to underestimate the situation we are in regarding the environment

gentle reforms cant stop anything at this point

there is a lot of reason to suggest we are past the point of no return

all production on this planet needs to collectively stop
and if we dont choose to do it
it will be done for us

it seem to be the only way


this planet is exhausted

galt john galt
05-16-2006, 12:47 PM
what is your insight on the difference between desire and need?

the difference between desaire and need is the difference between treading life or subcuming to tides that pull you awy from your lifestyle.

desire is that which i would like to a close want but don't need.
need is that which is necessary more than a desire.

i need food but desire flavor.

denaturat
05-16-2006, 10:50 PM
this discussion still leaves a lot of issues out

if we are gonna talk about something sustainable
it has to be acknowledged that everything we have built in the past requires more and more resources for maintenance

cities are literally falling apart

also
i dont think its wise to underestimate the situation we are in regarding the environment

gentle reforms cant stop anything at this point

there is a lot of reason to suggest we are past the point of no return

all production on this planet needs to collectively stop
and if we dont choose to do it
it will be done for us

it seem to be the only way


this planet is exhausted

there is no evidence for this. for millenia people thought they are living at the dawn of an apocalypse. so what happend?

and how are the cities literally flling apart? Literally? the sidewalks don't crumble, the buildings are not collapsing. I guess they are not falling apart literally. so how are they falling apart?

denaturat
05-16-2006, 11:11 PM
well thats because most of the reasoning behind their apocolyptic visions were just tales and story.
nowadays you have facts showing the planet is in a filthy state.
the questions really should be not if there is going to be an apocalypse but what it truly is. nuhmean.


I was refering to the apocalypse as a sociological phenomenon that takes many forms, like the Y2K scare for example. At least I am inferring that some people here sense an impending doom because they want to start revolutions. things are not all lolipops and sunshine, but they are not hopeless. you can make changes within the system.

JulioCortazar
05-17-2006, 12:15 AM
Any of you empty headed rhym-tards ever hear of Lennin (not John), or a really old guy named Adam Smith?

Lennin - I've got about twenty volumes of his - volume one talks about the uneven distribution of wealth (ever present in the revolutionary equasion). I'll stay right there for now because you need a quasi-educated (and less apathetic) populous to augment the catalyst (crazy guy named deTocqueville wrote about the wonderful American revolution).

As for Smith - I think you might have a tendancy to be too comunist (when feeling good about giving cost too much we stop giving). Throw in deTocquev'l again, mixed with Smith's division of labor, and Toquee's "new aristocracy," and you have what's going on around you.

What's that you ask? Well, US automakers formerly based in Detroit, have generations of highly specialized labor (why do anything else when mom's and pop's have been doing the same damn thing since they was 3?). Well, India and China make the goods for half the price - ergo a bunch of broke a-m.f'r's whining about "American jobs" (funny how their loyalty to US car's has left them with their pants down and a soar back side).

En Fin, you want a revolution? Crack a f'n book, cause the brains that got you pimp'n yourself at Macky-D's have read a whole hell of a lot more than you have.

JulioCortazar
05-17-2006, 12:25 AM
In Re fear: until you get popp'd in the nogin with a nail gun, run over by a buss, fall off an edifice, or manage to finish breathing by whatever method - there is no end (Imagine it all you want but you, and nobody else, can tell you where it will end).

In the off chance you die today - it's the end of the world. You think "global warming" can be mapped when we know that there will be another Ice age (geological time is a lot longer than even five hundred years of data). Wanna talk about the rest of polution issues? You think that evolution stopped with homo sapien? I think not.

In the end, lets say that you do see the end of the world - you still die alone. Who cares about any apocolypse? I've got a mortgage to pay, mouths to feed, books to read, and a whole lot more important things to do than worry about some stupid end of the world.

LHX
05-17-2006, 01:11 AM
there is no evidence for this. for millenia people thought they are living at the dawn of an apocalypse. so what happend?


do you know how short a millenium is on the scale of eternity?

some people say apocalypse already happened

any insights on that?


and how are the cities literally flling apart? Literally? the sidewalks don't crumble, the buildings are not collapsing. I guess they are not falling apart literally. so how are they falling apart?

lmao

how can we live in that same city and you say that?

doesnt it strike you as odd the way steeles keeps on looking like a meteor hit it?

and finch last summer when they had to shut the motherfucker down?


they are falling apart literally

ilzPotent
05-17-2006, 05:52 AM
You see this everywhere. In the ghetto all the children are wearing the newest jordans, carmelo's or hip sneakers out and their parents are welfare recipients. For those of you who haven't travelled outside of the USA, you would not believe how people live. I've been to Jamaica, island hopping i.e. st.croix, Mexico and these people are living in the equivalence of the shed in your back yard. Aluminum siding. ITS UN REAL. and they are satisfied just to have that much. Its truly amazing. you never realize how truly blessed you are until to see people without the same means you are provided.

arto
05-17-2006, 07:43 AM
when i question your posts it is not for the purpose of attacking you personally put for the purpose of testing your ideas to see if they withstand objections. that is a basic dialectic method of ancient greeks such as socrates and is just as useful today. in the process you learn, even where you disagree with someone.

just for the record, i make a point of not taking offence in discussions like these so you don't have to worry about that

arto
05-17-2006, 07:44 AM
En Fin, you want a revolution? Crack a f'n book, cause the brains that got you pimp'n yourself at Macky-D's have read a whole hell of a lot more than you have.

you don't need to be educated or read to know things and have ideas. why do you need to read about other people's ideas? why don't you just accept your own?

LHX
05-17-2006, 07:49 AM
You see this everywhere. In the ghetto all the children are wearing the newest jordans, carmelo's or hip sneakers out and their parents are welfare recipients. For those of you who haven't travelled outside of the USA, you would not believe how people live. I've been to Jamaica, island hopping i.e. st.croix, Mexico and these people are living in the equivalence of the shed in your back yard. Aluminum siding. ITS UN REAL. and they are satisfied just to have that much. Its truly amazing. you never realize how truly blessed you are until to see people without the same means you are provided.

and the funny part is they grow up to be healthier and stronger than kids in the US

arto
05-17-2006, 07:53 AM
and the funny part is they grow up to be healthier and stronger than kids in the US

is there any wonder when they don't eat all the shit the kids in the US do?

JulioCortazar
05-17-2006, 09:38 AM
"you don't need to be educated or read to know things and have ideas. why do you need to read about other people's ideas? why don't you just accept your own?"

Human beings have been around for thousands of years - and have been writing since Roman times. Are you so stupid that you think that there are any truly original ideas? You may have "thought" about it - but there are at least twenty people five times as famous and a million times smarter that have already thought of your "original idea." Come on! put down the crack pipe! The difference between your pitiful ideas and the ones that you find in books - people are willing to pay for their shit, and you just sit at home and jack off to your own. PLEASE!

you want to start playing chess?! don't think you have an "original" opening. You have a new idea? Start picking up the books knuckle dragger - it ain't so "original."

arto
05-17-2006, 10:58 AM
"you don't need to be educated or read to know things and have ideas. why do you need to read about other people's ideas? why don't you just accept your own?"

Human beings have been around for thousands of years - and have been writing since Roman times. Are you so stupid that you think that there are any truly original ideas? You may have "thought" about it - but there are at least twenty people five times as famous and a million times smarter that have already thought of your "original idea." Come on! put down the crack pipe! The difference between your pitiful ideas and the ones that you find in books - people are willing to pay for their shit, and you just sit at home and jack off to your own. PLEASE!

you want to start playing chess?! don't think you have an "original" opening. You have a new idea? Start picking up the books knuckle dragger - it ain't so "original."

i think you missed my point, and for the record i read just about everyday. what i'm saying is though, that you don't need to have read x amount of books or know the names and theories of x amount of philsophers to have any say because all that knowledge is in your mind already, its just that the words on the page articulate those ideals into something that you can comprehend beyond a feeling or an emotion. just think about the people who actually changed something in their world, people like adolf hitler, che guevara, lenin, marx, etc, do you really think that their thoughts would be enriched by literature? do you really think that marx and engels didn't want to kick start an economic revolution before they read a book? they didn't just read something and think "well, hey, yanno what, i don't like how i'm being governed, i'm gonna do something to change this, gee i'm glad i read a book, because MAN i couldn't even comprehend a revolution before i read something!"
it's fine reading books about politics and ideals to a certain extent, but after a while it becomes irrelevant. all that knowledge has to come from somewhere, the writers of the books have to know what they're talking about, don't they?
people can have these sorts of ideas without reading anything - take the peasant's revolt in england, for example. that happened because a lot of people were upset about the way they were being treated, not because they read a book about philosophy or economics, because none of them could actually read, which was probably one of the reasons why they revolted.
you can have an illiterate revolution, it's very possible, and it's been done, and you can have radical views without ever going to school, because it's been done.

JulioCortazar
05-18-2006, 12:57 AM
ok - the idea is/ was there - however, people were willing to do more than praise "original" ideas. As for Lennin and Marx, they were fairly well educated people - and they only got better educated because their ideas were accepted by the masses (not given up for a four dollar shirt at walmart). Not only was Lennin a well educated man, he was a great speaker and a wonderful writer.

I understand that you read - your ideas begin to take a better shape that way. You are a rarity - the rich will get rich until the poor get educated (I'm not saying school or books - but educated all the same, and books certainly do help).

CherChezLaMarauder
05-18-2006, 08:10 AM
reading books gives growth to your sense of imagination. You cannot put together an idea with having the ability of critical thinking. Books are tools and forms of entertainment, but they are not original. Books are tools to give one the capability to accumulate an original idea or thought.

LORD NOSE
05-13-2010, 11:59 PM
real build

Mumm Ra
05-14-2010, 05:13 AM
ima go through this one later *subscribes*

Sense-A
05-14-2010, 06:04 PM
Matthew Chapter 6:

19Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: 20But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
22The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
23But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
24No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
25Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
26Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
27Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
28And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
29And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Clan Destine
05-14-2010, 08:50 PM
I've been trying to adhere to the ethic that you need to fix yourself before you try to save the next person, or society, or the whole world.

Be more self-sufficient. Whether it be monetarily, materially, energetically, mentally spiritually etc. The more you need other things, and other people the weaker and less elegant your ethic is. This includes the desire to save the world, or 'fix the system'.

If I can't overcome my petty vices I can't expect the next man to and I can't really blame the people that provide the means to it

If everyone just looked towards themselves and their self sufficiency, not needing all these prosthetics externalities to keep their desire going the world would be much better without any of us really having to approach it as a whole.

Discipline is of utmost importance to revolution. Without power, all we can have is the power over ourselves. If you don't have this as a start you can't get anywhere on a greater scale.

LORD NOSE
05-14-2010, 09:31 PM
Platinum words yo - thanks

Urban_Journalz
05-17-2010, 03:09 PM
is that the starting point to improving the situation?

if the system is foul
and it has you hooked on shit

and uses this in order to get you to support the system
will rejecting these elements make a difference?


do you have it in you to unhook yourself?

to take what you need and nothing more?


ive come across a lot of dudes that can talk revolution
but
cant put down the herb
and work at starbucks to support they habit

they want to see equality
but
not when tomorrow is the release date for the new joint on xbox

cant pay 45 cents for a cup of rice to learn how to cook a meal
but
they can pay $5 at fast food and fill up they belly with trash

add on

It may be natural of humans to be full of desire, greed and so on, but the thing that all of us forget is that there are different aspects to our nature. The aforementioned aspects being the very lowest and most animalistic. The Taoists say that we need to be, "detached", "desireless". Most of us may thing that this leads to being a walking zombie, but it's quite the opposite. If you quiet the mind and control the heart, then you gain clarity. The heart births all emotions, the mind is the seat of the soul. Since most of our minds can't stay in one place and most of our hearts don't know the difference between love and lust, needs and wants, temporary and lasting, then you get what we have today; a world full of people who have no sense of direction and even if they have a sense of direction, they're driving in circles.

So I say yes, reject luxury and desire in any form. The greedy search for spiritual power is just as dangerous as the search for worldly power. This is where you get Nazism, Islamic Extremism, Zionism, Klansmen, etc. It's about balance. To give up the glitz and glitter of the material world is no more than clearing your mind and listening to your soul. That's why the ancients didn't need a bunch of, "stuff". They searched within and only rarely depended on what was without.

WARPATH
05-17-2010, 07:09 PM
Vote for Pedro.

D.projectile
08-24-2012, 10:04 AM
youre right Tek

but everybody ALWAYS says this isnt possible


------------------------------
real talk

peeps from the worst part taught this for obvious reasons although alternatively they coulda kept it civil wid those from the best part

D.projectile
08-24-2012, 10:16 AM
It may be natural of humans to be full of desire, greed and so on, but the thing that all of us forget is that there are different aspects to our nature. The aforementioned aspects being the very lowest and most animalistic. .

yep. the higher needs to be shown coz words arent gonna cut it for most trapped in the the realm they're in

they need to see the angel eyes n da angel radiance in us