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View Full Version : Blak Furyan Has Questions Thread?????


BlaK FuRYaN
05-24-2006, 08:35 AM
Sup peopel I'm going to use thread to ask some questions....
so if you think you can do my questions some justice, feel free to leave your answers....

PEACE

BlaK FuRYaN
05-24-2006, 08:40 AM
When was the developing stages of the Embryo discovered?

If it was only afew years back...do you think anyone would have know about embroyonic development 14 or 15oo years ago?

ratty mayonnaise
05-24-2006, 08:43 AM
im more than sure, they knew about this over 6000 years ago, if not a whole lot earlier (in time)

My First Timbs
05-24-2006, 05:42 PM
the basic gist of embryonic development was known by humans since the dawn of humanity

any early human who has ever witnessed mammalian conception and procreation (in addition to dissection of any other animal which would undoubtedly occur) would lead to direct observation and basic knowledge about how embryos develop and form.

the alleged embryology explained in the Quran is so vague and basic (in addition to grossly incorrect at times) is nothing special.

WARPATH
05-24-2006, 06:10 PM
^^that's what I was gonna say, only it would of came out.......different.

froth
05-24-2006, 06:42 PM
nice timbs, indeed, awareness of this is waaaaay before the koran; in fact to the dawn of man i suppose; we have just lost so much that this question kind of depresses me

My First Timbs
05-24-2006, 08:36 PM
i really take this issue to heart because its a prime example of gross deliberate intellectual dishonesty

that somehow the koran contains divinely inspired knowledge of embryology that was unknown at the time.. in a nutshell and no offense its BS !

its religionist propagandic babble... the christian creationists do the same sort of thing.



I am so glad you brought this up. This “argument” has been floating around for years unchecked and its about time it be addressed cause im so tired of hearing it.

The argument is actually quite funny and sad at the same time. It’s the same type (and form) of uninformed, meaningless “propogandic” babble that the Christian Creationists propose on a daily basis.. (all the while based on an argument from ignorance). I have a sincere distate for this Islamic claim because it is a glowing example of propaganda and INTELLECTUAL DISHONESTY (it also shows how the believer is so hasty to latch on to anything that shows a sign of the "miraculous" instead of wholeheartedly and “calmly” and rationally thinking about the situation at hand)

In one of my latest college lectures I spent an extensive amount of time countering this Islamic claim.

But to spare everyone a 3 hour lecture.. the main point is (in a nutshell)

The Quran is far from miraculous or exquisite or mind boggling in its description of alleged biological processes. The alleged accuracy of description of "embryology" (if u wanna call it that) in the quran is far from special. Everything that is “explained” as a form of embryology (before scientific advancement) can easily (very very easily) be explained by the most simplistic observation of living creatures and the natural processes of life…

lets go back for a second...

It all starts with the Islamic issue of “nutfah” or fluid produced duting intercourse that leads to pregnancy.. in other words semen. Those who want desperately to claim that knowledge of “nutfah” is proof the Quran is divinely inspired are sadly mislead.

Muslims of the 6th and 7th century (the alleged time of Muhammed), would damn well know (just as every human who has ever been on the planet and reached sexual maturity..or watched sexually mature creatures other than humanity) that procreation is only possible when there is a “propulsion of fluid or as they say "nutfah")… so strike one against the claim that this is evidence that the Quran is divinely inspired… nothing special here…….its nothing but a direct observation.. whats so divine about it?….nothing

But the meat of the issue is the passage (forgive my type written attempt at Arabic)

“Tom kha;aqna alnot fat alaqa , fakalaqna alalaqat modegha, khalana almodghat azama, fakasawna aleesazam lahma, thom anshanah khalqan”

which directly translates into

We the God(s) created the seminal fluid/nutfah into a clot , then created from it a lump of tissue that went on to develop bones which are later covered with flesh”

Now u must ask yourself honestly.. is any of this evidence of divine inspiration? Is any of this evidence that something magical must have going on in the 6th century for people to “know this”?

The answer u get when u honestly answer those questions is a hard and loud NO !

Humans have had some form or sort of experience with "embryological development" for hundreds of thousands of years (since the dawn of civilization) .. the passage in the Quran is no more than the ordinary joe would know who has ever observed anything that is alive or built anything! (u start with a beginning mold, more parts are added onto it, then it needs a covering and boom..its done..) and as for the whole magical , awe inspiring claim of “clot”.. any human would who has ever observed nature (or unfortunately has had experience with a miscarriage (or even a heavy menstrual cycle ) would describe a “fetal conceptus” as blood clot like)! This isn’t rocket science (it isn’t even science… its called natural observation and conjecture !

Now u must ask yourself honestly again.. is any of this evidence of divine inspiration? Is any of this evidence that something magical must have been going on in the 6th century for people to “know this”?

The answer u get when u honestly answer those questions is a hard and loud NO !

But wait! It gets even better! The Quran’s attempt at “embryology” states (as I noted above) that basically

Step 1) nutfah gushes out ....presumably into the female
Step 2) this fusion of fluids causes a clot of tissue to begin to form (leech like in appearance)

Step 3) the clot like tissue grows into a bigger lump

Step 4) the lumpy mess grows bones

Step 5) the lumpy bony “thing” is then finally wrapped in a covering of skin/flesh

Well I gotta tell you.. if this is divinely inspired it seems that whatever deity did the “inspiring” needs to go back to community college and take remedial Histology courses cause that’s not how a fetus actually develops (in any verterbrate species)

The genesis of the brain and chordata (spinal column) occur concurrently in vertebrate development! The brain obviously isn’t bone.. and it obviously isn’t “a flesh covering”.. yet the Quran doesn’t account for this ! Bones are not made first and then a flesh covering is made.. it simply doesn’t occur that way. Flesh is actually made “first” and bone is subsequently developed and lags behind.

But I know.. none of what im saying is gonna matter and ur prolly gonna say.. “well even if the Quran is incorrect on the intricacies, that doesn’t matter.. the Quran is divinely inspired and ppl back then just didn’t have the tools or means to know even a hint of this type of stuff…”

Keep kidding urself… and worse.. keep being “intellectually dishonest” to yourself. its a religious trend that has been in existence since the dawn on monotheism

timbs

BlaK FuRYaN
05-25-2006, 05:40 AM
you guys are funny....i didnt mention anything about the Quran...
I just asked a simple question...
but since there so much conjecture about embryology, can one provide evidence of it being known "6000 years" back or even "known by humans since the dawn of humanity" for a brother....

what is the "mammalian conception?"

BlaK FuRYaN
05-25-2006, 05:42 AM
The genesis of the brain and chordata (spinal column) occur concurrently in vertebrate development! The brain obviously isn’t bone.. and it obviously isn’t “a flesh covering”.. yet the Quran doesn’t account for this ! Bones are not made first and then a flesh covering is made.. it simply doesn’t occur that way. Flesh is actually made “first” and bone is subsequently developed and lags behind.

Timbs, leave a step by step development of the embryo in the thread pls....

BlaK FuRYaN
06-02-2006, 04:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlaK FuRYaN
The genesis of the brain and chordata (spinal column) occur concurrently in vertebrate development! The brain obviously isn’t bone.. and it obviously isn’t “a flesh covering”.. yet the Quran doesn’t account for this ! Bones are not made first and then a flesh covering is made.. it simply doesn’t occur that way. Flesh is actually made “first” and bone is subsequently developed and lags behind.

Timbs, leave a step by step development of the embryo in the thread pls....





step 1) 10 hours after ejaculation, sperm reaches egg and penetrates the oocyte

step 2) the now new zygote begins to undergo cleavage (cell division)..once it reaches appropriate size, it falls out of fallopian tube into uterine cavity

step 3) the zygote basically now "hollows itself out" becoming a what is known as a blastocized..formation of 2 cell types

step 4) special hormones are secreted by the blastocyst that eat away at uterine lining so that the blastocyst can attach itself..this in turn causes uterine swelling and increased blood circulation...next is an evolutionary throwback to an earlier time in life's history! the blastocyst splits into 2 regions..the uppermost becomes the actual embryo and amnion while th elower half becomes a yolk sac !..in addition, the placenta begins to develop

step 5) embryo attaches itself to wall via a stalk and gastrulation occurs.. the "primitive streak" is formed


step 6)the 3 cell layes begin to form (endo, meso and ecto)

step 7) ectoderm gives rise to precursors 2 nervous system ..at this stage, the embryo is described as pear or acorn shaped

step 8) blood vessel development

step 9)eyes, ears start to form.. heart muscle is able to contract

step 10) neural tube develops and causes the primitive S-shape of embryos

step 11) brain and spinal column develop concurrently

step 12) limbs bus, and other organs start to develop (including the evolutionary vestigial appendix)

step 13) nasal plate formation, more brain development, gill slits

step 14) mouth formation and lengtheneing of esophagus

step 15) digits start to form and lower jaw begins development (upper jaw is yet to develop)

step 16) pituitary gland and spine further develop.. sense of smell now present in brain (olfactory)

step 17) the skeleton now begins to start to form and kidneys now work (urine)

step 18) testes and ovaries are indistinguishable at this point but embryo can now move

step 19) intestines develop outside body but then revert back into body

step 20) fingers and toes are webbed at this point

step 21) clitoris and penis form (from same tissue) and brain can now cause limb movement

step 22) skeleton continues to form but it is now just cartilage.. a fully developed tail also forms at this stage..heart is complete

step 23) webbing between fingers and toes starts to disappear, head is almost fully formed.. mouth andjaw bones develop

step 24) breathing, swallowing and sucking motions now possible.. baby can swim aound womb..tail still there

step 25) blood circulation fully formed

step 26) tail starts to get smaller

step 27) testes in males start to form ..baby can suck thumb (this occurs in humans as well as other primates and other mammals and even some birds!.. it is an evolutionary practice run for mammary suckling)

step 28)testes descend fully and lungs are completely developed

step 29) skeleton , including chordata now almost fully complete

step 30) skin pigment is pink at this point (about 6-7 months)

step 31) skull fully develops but is soft (will later be molded by female birth canal..ppl with longer heads on average had a longer journey thru birth canal!)

step 32) skin fully develops, still pink

step 33) all 300 bones in human baby now fully formed and solid.. baby is ready to be delivered

step 34) instinctual behavior is now evident (not learned) these behaviors are evolutionary advantages to increase chances of survival baby is fully developedal..

step 35) baby is born

BlaK FuRYaN
06-02-2006, 04:18 AM
Then We placed him as a drop in a place of rest." This statement is from Sura 23:13 (http://qibla.msa.upenn.edu/alim_online/yali_trans/ya23-1.htm). The drop or nutfah has been interpreted as the sperm or spermatozoon, but a more meaningful interpretation would be the zygote which divides to form a blastocyst which is implanted in the uterus ("a place of rest"). This interpretation is supported by another verse in the Qur'an which states that "a human being is created from a mixed drop." The zygote forms by the union of a mixture of the sperm and the ovum ("The mixed drop"). "Then We made the drop into a leech-like structure." This statement is from Sura 23:14 (http://qibla.msa.upenn.edu/alim_online/yali_trans/ya23-1.htm). The word "alaqah" refers to a leech or bloodsucker. This is an appropriate description of the human embryo from days 7-24 when it clings to the endometrium of the uterus, in the same way that a leech clings to the skin. Just as the leech derives blood from the host, the human embryo derives blood from the decidua or pregnant endometrium. It is remarkable how much the embryo of 23-24 days resembles a leech (Fig. 2). As there were no microscopes or lenses available in the 7th century, doctors would not have known that the human embryo had this leech-like appearance. In the early part of the fourth week, the embryo is just visible to the unaided eye because it is smaller than a kernel of wheat.
http://www.islam101.com/images/alaqa.gifFigure 2. Top, a drawing of a leech or bloodsucker.
Below, a drawing of a 24 day-old human embryo. Note the leech-like appearance of the human embryo at this stage.http://www.islam101.com/images/mudgha.gifFigure 3. Left, a plasticine model of the human embryo which has the appearance of chewed flesh.
Right, a drawing of a 28 day-old human embryo showing several bead-like somites which resemble the teeth marks in the model shown to the left.
"Then of that leech-like structure, We made a chewed lump." This statement is also from Sura 23:14 (http://qibla.msa.upenn.edu/alim_online/yali_trans/ya23-1.htm). The Arabic word "mudghah" means "chewed substance or chewed lump." Toward the end of the fourth week, the human embryo looks somewhat like a chewed lump of flesh (Fig. 3). The chewed appearance results from the somites which resemble teeth marks. The somites represent the beginnings or primordia of the vertebrae. "Then We made out of the chewed lump, bones, and clothed the bones in flesh." This continuation of Sura 23:14 (http://qibla.msa.upenn.edu/alim_online/yali_trans/ya23-1.htm) indicates that out of the chewed lump stage, bones and muscles form. This is in accordance with embryological development. First the bones form as cartilage models and then the muscles (flesh) develop around them from the somatic mesoderm. "Then We developed out of it another creature." This next part of Sura 23:14 (http://qibla.msa.upenn.edu/alim_online/yali_trans/ya23-1.htm) implies that the bones and muscles result in the formation of another creature. This may refer to the human-like embryo that forms by the end of the eighth week. At this stage it has distinctive human characteristics and possesses the primordia of all the internal and external organs and parts. After the eighth week, the human embryo is called a fetus. This may be the new creature to which the verse refers. "And He gave you hearing and sight and feeling and understanding." This part of Sura 32:9 (http://qibla.msa.upenn.edu/alim_online/yali_trans/ya32-1.htm) indicates that the special senses of hearing, seeing, and feeling develop in this order, which is true. The primordia of the internal ears appear before the beginning of the eyes, and the brain (the site of understanding) differentiates last. "Then out of a piece of chewed flesh, partly formed and partly unformed." This part of Sura 22:5 (http://qibla.msa.upenn.edu/alim_online/yali_trans/ya22-1.htm) seems to indicate that the embryo is composed of both differentiated and undifferentiated tissues. For example, when the cartilage bones are differentiated, the embryonic connective tissue or mesenchyme around them is undifferentiated. It later differentiates into the muscles and ligaments attached to the bones. "And We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term." This next part of Sura 22:5 (http://qibla.msa.upenn.edu/alim_online/yali_trans/ya22-1.htm) seems to imply that God determines which embryos will remain in the uterus until full term. It is well known that many embryos abort during the first month of development, and that only about 30% of zygotes that form, develop into fetuses that survive until birth. This verse has also been interpreted to mean that God determines whether the embryo will develop into a boy or girl. The interpretation of the verses in the Qur'an referring to human development would not have been possible in the 7th century A.D., or even a hundred years ago. We can interpret them now because the science of modern Embryology affords us new understanding. Undoubtedly there are other verses in the Qur'an related to human development that will be understood in the future as our knowledge increases.

BlaK FuRYaN
06-02-2006, 04:20 AM
What we have in the Quran is quite clear...
What Timbs has described above this thread is the resukt of advance technology which wasn't available at the time the Quran was revealed.

But what was revealed in the Quran isn't exactly a Lie is it?

My First Timbs
06-02-2006, 09:45 AM
its not as lie at all

most of it is a result of common sense and direct observation.. in addition some of it is wrong!

furthermore its nothing special about it. in addition, many of the statements above are falsely correlated with modern embryology

My First Timbs
06-02-2006, 10:30 AM
Furthermore, is it truly that "unfathomable" to realize that modern man (not even counting the ingrained knowledge passed down from our evolutionary descendants) have been roaming the planet for roughly 15-20 thousand years.................. In that time we had nothing else to do but try to remain alive by truly getting to know and understand ourselves and the world we live in.............. Many biological processes (even if the occur inside the body) can indeed be known (without all the details) by beings (roughly 1500 yrs ago) who dont have advanced technology or medicine.

As stated earlier, most of this islamic claim is a direct result of humanity's inevitable experience with the reproductive process of themselves as well as other animals.

Miscarriages occurr in all creatures (undoubtedly at a higher rate back then) and would of offered just the oppurtune time to get a direct observation and rough idea of what goes on inside th ebody during varying stages of development of young in humans as well as other creatures (including non mammals!)


The claim simply and honesly just doesnt have any legs to stand on other than the "questions of the unknown-factor).... and those are not legs at all.

LORD NOSE
01-05-2012, 02:11 AM
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