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LHX
05-29-2006, 10:19 AM
martyr : a person who sacrifices something of great value and especially life itself for the sake of principle




what are the negative aspects of martyrdom?

denaturat
05-29-2006, 11:03 AM
martyr : a person who sacrifices something of great value and especially life itself for the sake of principle




what are the negative aspects of martyrdom?

better be sure those are the right principles...

LHX
05-29-2006, 11:19 AM
better be sure those are the right principles...

or?

Fayth
05-29-2006, 11:20 AM
Definitions of martyr:

noun: one who suffers for the sake of principle
noun: one who voluntarily suffers death as the penalty for refusing to renounce their religion
verb: torture and torment like a martyr
verb: kill as a martyr
Example: "Saint Sebastian was martyred"

num2son
05-29-2006, 12:49 PM
Definitions of martyr:

noun: one who suffers for the sake of principle
noun: one who voluntarily suffers death as the penalty for refusing to renounce their religion
verb: torture and torment like a martyr
verb: kill as a martyr
Example: "Saint Sebastian was martyred"

:learning:

Frontal Lobotomy
05-29-2006, 01:11 PM
Martyrdom is a very selective status, and is often connotated to western religion.
Was Martin Luther King considered a martyr?

Prince Rai
05-29-2006, 02:51 PM
or?

its true.. if principles werent right.. then surely the picture of positive martyrdom would be tainted.

thus, can a negative side be that if the principle is not positive or reasonably positive, that martyrdom is a tool to convince people to do bad things blindly (or even willingly)?

LHX
05-29-2006, 03:11 PM
when does the person working independently find out if their principles are right?


does a spirit come down and say
'young man - your principles are now right to be a martyr'?

Prince Rai
05-29-2006, 03:14 PM
when does the person working independently find out if their principles are right?


does a spirit come down and say
'young man - your principles are now right to be a martyr'?

arguably such voices do not exist, unless we talk about religious aspects of martyrdom.

thing is, what is a principle.
surely a negative aspect of martyrdom would be if the principle pursued was one which is negative, or perceived as being negative.
then the question arises whether martyrdom achieved its purpose..

MaShPG
05-29-2006, 03:33 PM
what are the negative aspects of martyrdom?

misinterpretation. Like people won't understand their message and regard them standing for something else. Like plenty of people thought Malcolm meant kill whitey. The positive aspect is that you become a legend. People who agree with the cause you were fighting for will never forget you. Some people have had a bigger effect on a movement in death than in life.

HANZO
05-29-2006, 05:07 PM
its a confusing subject because if differs from situation. the principle i understand of a martyr is that a man sacrifices his life for the importance of his people, nation or something of value. but then this would make palestinian suicide bombers martyrs, as they are sacrificing their lives for their country. then this brings up the issue if suicide bombers should be concidered martys. i say if they do it in the name of allah then no, as in islam it states that terrorism isnt apart of the religion.
would we consider a soldier dying to be a martyr. a soldier is fighting for his country. would fighting for the right or wrong reasons be a factor to consider if the soldiers dying in those situation to be martyrs??

i see in turkish news everyday, the same headlines we have given another martyr in the fight for terrorism. whenever a soldier dies it is considered that he is a martyr. when civilians die from terrorist acts we also consider them as martyrs.

Longbongcilvaringz
05-29-2006, 06:50 PM
^ yeah exactly, so the negative connotations come from the principle they were high lighting. eg. 9/11 attackers are martyr because thye dies for a principle or cause.

snapple
05-29-2006, 09:50 PM
yea as soon as i saw this thread i thought it was gonna be about the towers falling

denaturat
05-29-2006, 11:48 PM
when does the person working independently find out if their principles are right?


does a spirit come down and say
'young man - your principles are now right to be a martyr'?

I think it is a matter of knowing yourself. If you do, you may realize that you are motivated by something other than altruism. If you are blinded by passion for example, you can make a great mistake. You may end up dying in vain, or worse, die as a villain.

june181972
06-22-2006, 01:04 PM
Martyrdom is for religious or mystified people.
How can one possibly accomplish more in death than in life?

The most glorified martyr in the west: Jesus
Question:
Why would God send (himself?/his son?) on a suicide mission?

The Roman Empire fell, but a greater more powerful one arose: U.S.A.
So did Jesus accomplish his goal through martyrdom?
Can any martyr accomplish their goals?

The death of a "great leader", a "man of the people" will only beget more resentment towards the establishment, more conspiricy theories, and possibly more violence and death.

The martyrdom of the "average joe" begets nothing.

LHX
06-22-2006, 01:14 PM
PEACE June - I know this wasn't your main point, but are you sure Jesus wasn't an Average Joe?

Isn't that where he got the power to sacrifice himself?

Because he knew he was an Average Joe? And he would come back over and over and over and over...

june181972
06-22-2006, 01:38 PM
Peace LHX,

What I meant by average joe was someone with limited social recognition.
Jesus was well known based on his crusade against the evil of the ruling class.
As opposed to a random fanatic that decided to kill themself as a symolic gesture of rebellion.
I am totally anti-religion.
I started a thread that you threatened to close with the hopes of starting a conversation about this.
People can argue/debate religion forever.
But how can one disagree on what is righteous?
To simplify: How can one debate the true essence of the "Golden Rule"?

If Jesus, or any martyr could come back over and over, wouldn't that devalue the act and intended impact of martyrdom?

LHX
06-22-2006, 01:55 PM
brenda throwing her baby in the dumpster

Palehorse: equal parts profound and retard.

It's all good.

PEACE

LHX
06-22-2006, 02:02 PM
If Jesus, or any martyr could come back over and over, wouldn't that devalue the act and intended impact of martyrdom?

Depends on what the intended impact of martyrdom is.

Which is turn seems to depend on the martyr's perspective on their situation.

If Jesus thought life was 'precious', would he have tossed it away?
Fuck no.

That's simple reasoning.

The fact of the matter is that it is possible that the individual human body is completely worthless, or that life does not require a permanent body - some unbearable perspectives for most people.

This entire society would fall apart if people lost a fear of death.

june181972
06-22-2006, 02:22 PM
Peace LHX,

If people thought life was supremely precious, and had the knowledge to fully embrace it, they might in turn lose their fear of death.

If the purpose of martyrdom is to improve life en masse, then Jesus failed. IMO

If one were to shoot themselves in the head 50 times, and continue to be able to do so, the trick would become less and less profound over time.

The very fear of death is what make martyrdom profound.
Profound to those still alive to "glorify" the martyr.
But death after death after death makes martyrs, but does it equal change?

Someone passionate enough about a cause to make themselves a martyr would make better use of that passion in life. IMO