PDA

View Full Version : "It's all right to hate, as long as you hate what God hates and love what God loves"


Wamukota X
06-02-2006, 08:33 AM
According to the Bible God hates:


Malachi 1:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=46&chapter=1&verse=3&version=9&context=verse)
And I hatedEsau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Romans 9:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=13&version=9&context=verse)
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Zechariah 8:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=45&chapter=8&verse=17&version=9&context=verse)
And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the LORD.

Proverbs 6:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=6&verse=16&version=9&context=verse)
These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

Deuteronomy 12:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=12&verse=31&version=31&context=verse)
You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.

Deuteronomy 16:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=16&verse=22&version=31&context=verse)
and do not erect a sacred stone, for these the LORD your God hates.

Malachi 2:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=46&chapter=2&verse=16&version=31&context=verse)
"I hatedivorce," says the LORD God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself with violence as well as with his garment," says the LORD Almighty. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.

Psalm 11:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=11&verse=5&version=9&context=verse)
The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Isaiah 61:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=61&verse=8&version=9&context=verse)
For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.


According to the Bible the prophets or the righteous hated; and they are our examples today ...

Ecclesiastes 3:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=25&chapter=3&verse=8&version=9&context=verse)
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

Psalm 97:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=97&verse=10&version=9&context=verse)
Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.

Psalm 139:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=139&verse=21&version=9&context=verse)
Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

Proverbs 8:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=8&verse=13&version=9&context=verse)
The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogance, and the evil way, and the forward mouth, do I hate.

Luke 14:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=14&verse=26&version=9&context=verse)
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

John 12:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=12&verse=25&version=9&context=verse)
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Matthew 5:43 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&verse=43&version=9&context=verse)
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

Matthew 6:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=6&verse=24&version=9&context=verse)
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Micah 3:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=40&chapter=3&verse=2&version=9&context=verse)
Who hate the good, and love the evil; who pluck off their skin from off them, and their flesh from off their bones;


Amos 5:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=37&chapter=5&verse=15&version=9&context=verse)
Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the LORD God of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph.

Proverbs 13:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=13&verse=5&version=9&context=verse)
A righteous man hateth lying: but a wicked man is loathsome, and cometh to shame.

zeppelin2k
06-02-2006, 10:52 AM
um oriignal bible wasnt in english so the word isnt HATE

Wamukota X
06-02-2006, 10:57 AM
um oriignal bible wasnt in english so the word isnt HATE

What is it then?

My First Timbs
06-02-2006, 11:52 AM
if one was to think, contemplate or act like how "God" and the rest of the cast of characters think, contemplates or behaves in the bible, they would be considered the most immoral person on the planet.

i dont hate god.. tho (because that would imply that a god does exist)

Kong
06-02-2006, 12:25 PM
could a human understand the ways of a being that created all he did in the bible enouth to judge him?

Locust
06-02-2006, 12:26 PM
so many things like this cna be found through out the bible its crazy. god isnt all that great in fact he's probably the only person i can say i hate.
and ya know yell probably try to play me like take away something from me to try n makeme praise him and ask him forhelp but i will not. you's a punk bitch.
who ever said god was a person?

Wamukota X
06-02-2006, 12:32 PM
if one was to think, contemplate or act like how "God" and the rest of the cast of characters think, contemplates or behaves in the bible, they would be considered the most immoral person on the planet.

i dont hate god.. tho (because that would imply that a god does exist)


Why post in this forum if "God" does not exist? Which this post is not about.

zeppelin2k
06-02-2006, 12:51 PM
What is it then?

well I am just syaing there might not even be an english equivalent for the mother tongue of the bible to explain that word, and as for all this hate stuff, people wrote the bible not God, anyone can say God hates, it doesnt make it true

Kong
06-02-2006, 01:06 PM
humans do the same things god did.

humans cant do all the things god did.

Strange Fruit
06-02-2006, 01:16 PM
well I am just syaing there might not even be an english equivalent for the mother tongue of the bible to explain that word, and as for all this hate stuff, people wrote the bible not God, anyone can say God hates, it doesnt make it true
the truth ^^.

it would be interesting if someone asked a priest
why they put the Bible on a pedastal.

because in some freaky twisted way,
we're "worshipping" human creation.

denaturat
06-02-2006, 01:55 PM
so many things like this cna be found through out the bible its crazy. god isnt all that great in fact he's probably the only person i can say i hate.
and ya know yell probably try to play me like take away something from me to try n makeme praise him and ask him forhelp but i will not. you's a punk bitch.

lol...I don't disagree

Urban_Journalz
06-02-2006, 01:55 PM
Look, a human being could understand the way of a being that created everything seen and unseen. That's why the scriptures Tawrah (Torah), Injeel (Gospel) and Qur'an were revealed unto Mankind. A moral and spiritual rulebook, if you will, on how to not only come to know The Most High, but also come to know the mysteries of your divine origins. There is no judging God, however. How can you judge, THE judge? You barely have control over yourselves. So to judge or even begin to question Divine logic is completely out of our range of capability.

As far as god being, "the only person you can say you honestly hate.", the fact that you think or believe that the All-seeing, All-knowing, All-Powerful Creator is....a person?? Of flesh and blood no less...show how truely tainted your perspective is. Now to tell you why your statement is juvenile.....

First of all, you say you don't see why He's so great. Look at the world, you say, and then look at His morals, you say. Have you ever heard of teh difference between Mankind and Angels? We, Mankind, have free-will. We also have intelligence. So, once the definition of right and wrong is placed before us, we then have the opportunity to choose between the two. Now, the Angels, weren't given such choice. Which makes them closer to perfection than we'll ever be. You're blaming God, for what His disobedient servants have done. Not remembering that if He wanted to punish us for what we've done, the way we deserve to be punished, none of us would be here. It's called respite. A term appointed, so that when the trumpet is blown, none of us will be able to say, "We didn't have enough time to do the right thing." The Punishment is unjustified"....and all that jazz.

You can't believe in God and say "I don't think He's all that great."
I ask you, who else then, and don't try to run and hide behind a petty and common excuse such as "science" or "luck" or whatever the f**k else your tiny minds can come up with in order to acknowledge any and everything except the truth, who else keeps all of the planets in motion, the force of gravity intact, so we don't go flying off into space? Who wakes you up in the morning? Surely you know that the reason they call sleep the "cousin of death" is because your soul, quite literally, leaves your body when you sleep. Who makes the night pass into the day, and the day pass into the night? Who drives the rainclouds to the dead Earth, in order to ring life therefrom, once again??
These aren't powers He "claims to have", He HAS THEM.
Not all that great??? I would love to see you do anything I just mentioned. Or anyone else for that matter. Not that it'll happen, because you know damn well you're incapable.

If your main concern is punishment, look at the nations that came before these. Egypt, Rome, Greece, Sodom & Gomorrah. All of these nations were much like this one. Full of people who were weak in faith. Or even worse, had no faith at all. In some cases, like Egypt, and The Cities Of The Plain (Sodom & Gomorrah), they recieved warnings. Direct warnings from their Prophets. However, ignorance, stupidity, and sheer disobedience in the name of being "cool" is what ultimately did them in. If you notice from the case of Musa (Moses), Upon Whom Be Peace, ans Pharoah, there were MANY warnings (water into blood, frogs, flies, locusts, flaming hale, and deaths of the first born sons of Egypt.), before the final destruction came. The Red Sea collapsing in on his army.

Just in case you want to say, "Oh, there's no proof." here's a website....for the kids.....www.arkdiscovery.com. Archaeologists, found and took pictures of not only the bottom of The Red Sea, where relics and bones of Pharaohs army still lie, they also have photos of Gomorrah. Where you can see plainly that although some structures still stand, instead of stone, it's ASH. Not to mention that they also found balls of sulphur with higher contents of the material in that one specemin, than could be found within hundreds of miles.

God's punishment and the way He punishes, more importantly, have not changed one bit. Most of you simply don't recognize them. Hurricaine Katrina would be the most recent and effective example I could give you. Lets do the math........
Wicked cities and nations didn't recieve thier punishment until after they had become comfortable in thier practices. New Orleans, what have they?? Mardi Gras. What IS Mardi Gras?? Well, as far as the ORIGINAL purpose, it was the last chance to party before "Lent", which leads up to Easter. Now, if you have any kind of sense, you already see WTF the problem is.....moving on, it doesn't take a genius to see that the current purposes of Marid Gras are WAY out of hand as far as anything even REMOTELY Holy.
Just as God sent Pharaoh warnings with the now infamous Plagues Of Egypt, so he does with all other nations. Katrina got almost as much press as the Tsunami that hit Indonesia a while back. Why? LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION!!!! It was a warning, a direct warning. Just like if an earthquake hit Las Vegas, or, say it with me now....SIN CITY.....and it buried the place beneath the Earth, it would get even MORE press. Only because shallow-minded people are only concerned with, "Oh no! Las Vegas is gone! What are we gonna do??!!" Not remembering the above mentioned facts. Those being that while America is powerful, so was Rome, Greece, Egypt, and the rest of 'em. Let's not forget nations that we know about, but don't know WTF happened to them. Atlantis, Pacifica (OZ). Nations who were more powerful in Armies, had greater riches, and technologies that we STILL can't figure out. Now look.....RUINS. No one survives. In some cases, even thier languages are dead.

So yes, Legato, your response was juvenile, indeed. Like I said, you, and whoever else is so very inclined to join the bandwagon of people who SAY they believe and ACT the exact opposite of what they say, should check that site. Or do you lack the courage?

A mixture of alchemy and evolution?? You should do stand-up.
Because that is some of the funniest SHIT I have EVER heard.
Now, who do you suppose gave us alchemy? Who do you suppose let us know about the concept of evolution?? AND SCIENCE????!!!

Another clear-cut problem with Mankind is, we over-estimate ourselves and our importance. CONSIDERABLY no less.

As for "My First Timbs" comment, on "If one were to act the way God and His Prophets (Upon Whom Be Peace and Blessings) were to act, they would be considered the most immoral person on the planet." Now, does that not tell you GENIUSES just how far away from the mark Mankind as a whole truely is at this point in time?
When right becomes wrong and wrong becomes right. That is one of the MANY signs of the End of Times. "The day will come when you can't tell men from women, and women from men." It doesn't matter how you're seen in the eyes of men. No of the people that you try so desperately to identify with can bear any of your burdens. Nor can you bear any of theirs. Seems to me that the lot of you who are weak in faith, or have none at all, are simply waiting for death. Why, you ask?? It's simple, you refuse to take any of the signs and parables already given to you, both in scripture and in the world around you. Again, just like the ancients. When their prophets came to them and even after the miracles were performed, they attributed the happenings to "magic". You do exactly as hey did, only your "magic" is now called "science". So, death is the only way you'll ever find out the truth. Sad thing is, by then it'll be too late to do anything about setting your record straight, due to the fact that you took the life of this world to be nothing more than pure amusement, and worse, you were attached to this world, and this life, forgetting, or not wanting to remember in most cases, that BOTH were temporary.

Again...for anyone with the bronyas (Italian/plural=testicles) to actually walk on the wild side.....www.arkdiscovery.com
........Juevos anyone???? (Spanish/plural=same thing)

Peace

denaturat
06-02-2006, 01:56 PM
name something god can do that humans can't do?

yeah, and I add, name something that you know for a fact god did?

Urban_Journalz
06-02-2006, 02:08 PM
O.k., something God can do that humans can't do.......MOLD THE CHILD IN THE MOTHER'S WOMB AS HE PLEASES. Can ANY of you, mold organs, bones, bloodcells or marrow??? Can ANY of you KEEP THE PLANETS IN ORBIT???

My First Timbs
06-02-2006, 02:33 PM
could a human understand the ways of a being that created all he did in the bible enouth to judge him?

thats an excuse/cop out

Wamukota X
06-02-2006, 02:42 PM
thats an excuse/cop out


You didn't answer his question or mine.

My First Timbs
06-02-2006, 02:47 PM
O.k., something God can do that humans can't do.......MOLD THE CHILD IN THE MOTHER'S WOMB AS HE PLEASES. Can ANY of you, mold organs, bones, bloodcells or marrow??? Can ANY of you KEEP THE PLANETS IN ORBIT???

i could mold an embryonic creature in the womb of its parent.. this is actually quite simple

bones, marrow, blood cells 2

how do u know god keeps planets in orbit?

My First Timbs
06-02-2006, 02:48 PM
what was ur question?. i dont c it?

Wamukota X
06-02-2006, 03:00 PM
Why post in this forum if "God" does not exist? Which this post is not about.


Here it is.



i could mold an embryonic creature in the womb of its parent.. this is actually quite simple

bones, marrow, blood cells 2

how do u know god keeps planets in orbit?

Can you explain step by step the process of how you perform embryology?

Visionz
06-02-2006, 03:00 PM
I love how everyone is in denial of God for the lack of evidence. Science only works to prove the workings of God's mysteries. Somewhere down the line this became "there's no God unless you can prove it". With this train of logic, did DNa not exist before the 1950's? Did morphing neutrinos not exist until the last 30 years? It is shear arrogance to think something doesn't exist until we can fully comprehend it. An ass-backwards philosphy if I ever saw one.

Wamukota X
06-02-2006, 03:05 PM
if one was to think, contemplate or act like how "God" and the rest of the cast of characters think, contemplates or behaves in the bible, they would be considered the most immoral person on the planet.

i dont hate god.. tho (because that would imply that a god does exist)


Why do people that say they do not believe in "god" ridicule the people that believe in "god"? Is there some kind of insecurity about their own belief system? Why would someone be, "the most immoral person on the planet" if a person thinks the way "god" thinks?

My First Timbs
06-02-2006, 03:08 PM
i never ridicule anyone, its normally the other way around and has been since monotheism began

are u seriously asking how someone would be immoral if they did what god did and thinks like he allegedly thought as per the bible?

if i punished my young son for eating a delicious apple (even if i told him not too but knew he would get tempted too), that alone would be foolish, cruel and borderline immoral (let alone allegedly punish an entire creation)

if i killed anyones (or agreed with) killing anyones first born child, that would be immoral (irrespective if they ever wronged me or slighted me)

the list goes on and on.. (and these are just the blatant examples)

Wamukota X
06-02-2006, 03:12 PM
i never ridicule anyone, its normally the other way around and has been since monotheism began

are u seriously asking how someone would be immoral if they did what god did and thinks like he allegedly thought as per the bible?

if i punished my young son for eating a delicious apple (even if i told him not too but knew he would get tempted too), that alone would be foolish, cruel and borderline immoral (let alone allegedly punish an entire creation)

if i killed anyones (or agreed with) killing anyones first born child, that would be immoral (irrespective if they ever wronged me or slighted me)

the list goes on and on.. (and these are just the blatant examples)



If you say so.

Urban_Journalz
06-02-2006, 03:55 PM
Typical of someone of your intelligence, or lack thereof to say something like that. Just like the ancients, your faith is WEAK.
You have to SEE in order to BELIEVE. The Children Of Israel asked to see God and were struck dead. In fact, you just put your foot in your mouth in saying, "Something that doesn't exist." You don't even believe in God like you said you did before. Not that it surprises me much. A simple answer??? WTF is, "I think evolution and alchemy created him somewhere down the line." It's A GUESS.
Not even an EDUCATED guess. It's easier for people like you who, knowing the gravity of religion, and the work to be done therein, to simply guess and disbelieve. You'd rather be simple and worse, try to justify your simplicity with nothing but sheer, "Oh, how do you know's." Your response CLEARLY shows that you only skimmed through my post and DID NOT read the whole thing. Not that I really expected you to. Even if you did, you didn't go to the website either. I'd LOVE to hear your bullshit explanation for the relics found there. But no, you, much like Timbs, would rather believe that dwarfs, elves, pixies, trolls, leprachauns, fairies, and whatever the hell else your tiny minds feel like latching on to THIS week, created all in existance, instead of The Creator.

You two would've fit in very nicely in Ancient Greece, Rome and Egypt. At least then you could've had a choice over which false gods to choose from as far as the creation and rule of the Universe goes.

A whole lot of nothing? LoL. Son, my facts were historic. Which shows you know jack shit about history as well. They also confer with all 3 major religions. You haven't given an intelligent arguement yet. YOU CAN'T. All you have is what you THINK, MAY HAVE, POSSIBLY happened. Like I said, not even an educated guess. Keep on with your 2-yr. old responses, "You can't because I said so!." "Well....why??" "BECAUSE I SAID SO!!!" (as he stomps away....broken G.I. Joe in hand). You have no foundation, your grounds are a weak as your faith. BOTH of you.

How do you try to justify stupidity? That's a real neat trick methinks.

Timbs says, "How do you know God keeps the planets in order."
They're in line aren't they? Do they ever stop?? Now MY question to YOU is.....How do YOU know he DOESN'T keep hem in orbit??

Do YOU keep them in orbit? Since you can create an embryo. Oh, and for the record, when The Most High creates a thing, he only says, "BE!"...and it is. So show me YOUR power. Besides just beatin' your gums together because it sounds cute.

And Legato, as far as that "bunch of stuff" I threw up in the air, I notice you took the time NOT to even TRY to directly attack ANY of my statements, because even someone as completely empty-headed as you knows that it made too much sense to directly attack. Except of course with the famous, "How do you know??"

Is that ALL you bastards have in that pathetic arsenal of yours???
The SAME question??? Or worse....the SAME defense...."Science did it!" No my simple-minded friend, THAT'S your "simple answer that sounds good and makes YOU feel whole."

To compare Santa Clause, Santa Clause was a publicity stunt created by Coca-Cola in order to boost sales of their product. Walk with THAT one. Notice the Red & White Suit?? Now where the fuck do YOU see that ANYWHERE in scripture, or having to do with the birth of Isa (Jesus) Upon Whom Be Peace?? Hmmmm???

Well, since stupidity will NEVER cease....and you two being PRIME examples of that fact....I won't bother talking to either one of you anymore. Your arguements are a waste of time and electricity. You want an exercise in futility, try discussing the pros and cons of creamy peanut butter vs. crunchy. Surely it's more your speed.
Why?? "BECAUSE I SAID SO!!!!!!"

Now, when you manage to find an intelligent reference to argue from, instead of, "Mommy, mommy! They told me the earth was ROUND!!!! Waaaa!!!! WAAAAA!!!!!", then maybe I'll acknowledge YOUR existance. Which is clearly becoming more of a waste of oxygen methinks.

Oh, yea.....although you're both too chicken shit to go here....I'll do it just for the sheer pleasure of knowing that knowledge to you is like Cryptonite to Superman.
www.arkdiscovery.com

Now take THAT and go.....
No me importa! Pinche jotos.

Urban_Journalz
06-02-2006, 03:58 PM
oh, and by the way, as far as that other BULLSHIT about, "Humans can do what God has done." Mankind would not exist without God. For someone who CLAIMS to believe in God, you sure do talk enough stupidity to make people believe otherwise.

But then, we can only spend of what we own. Right?

My First Timbs
06-02-2006, 04:04 PM
Timbs says, "How do you know God keeps the planets in order."
They're in line aren't they? Do they ever stop?? Now MY question to YOU is.....How do YOU know he DOESN'T keep hem in orbit??

.

its not my place to prove a negative/unknown... i am not the one making the outlandish claim that a god keeps the planets in order..

the burden of proof always lies with the "affirmitive"

those who claim that a god keeps the planets in order are the ones who are obligated to back up this claim, or stop wasting everyone''s time

this is the reason why many skepdic and agnostics and atheists simply ask questions to dispute claims.. they have no burden of proof

Visionz
06-02-2006, 04:15 PM
It's good you're not trying to prove an unknown. Did you guys know that DNA has only been around since 1950? Right, it didn't exist until we "discovered" it.

My First Timbs
06-02-2006, 04:26 PM
of course it existed.. we just didnt have any evidence or proof to believe it existed!

and thats exactly the point!

its totally possible that a god is indeed keeping the planets in order, but unless u can offer some evidence or proof to back up this claim, its worthless

just like it would be worthless to talk about dna before it was discovered

Visionz
06-02-2006, 04:58 PM
would it have been discovered if no one was out there looking for it? of course not. And I also know that one day science will be able to prove God's existence, I'm just not sticking around to wait for yall to catch up. God has already provided us with as much knowledge as we need to know. Free will will take care of everything else. Thanks for finally acknowledging that God can exist without actuall proof of existence (even if I can see that proof everywhere around me and within me) peace

Visionz
06-02-2006, 05:01 PM
and one more thing, DNA was serving its purpose the whole time we were completely ignorant of it. keep that in mind.

My First Timbs
06-02-2006, 06:07 PM
would it have been discovered if no one was out there looking for it? of course not. And I also know that one day science will be able to prove God's existence, I'm just not sticking around to wait for yall to catch up. God has already provided us with as much knowledge as we need to know. Free will will take care of everything else. Thanks for finally acknowledging that God can exist without actuall proof of existence (even if I can see that proof everywhere around me and within me) peace

no one was out loooking for dna.. most scientific discovery doesnt occur because someone is out looking for something

Iron Fist
06-02-2006, 07:15 PM
I love how everyone is in denial of God for the lack of evidence. Science only works to prove the workings of God's mysteries. Somewhere down the line this became "there's no God unless you can prove it". With this train of logic, did DNa not exist before the 1950's? Did morphing neutrinos not exist until the last 30 years? It is shear arrogance to think something doesn't exist until we can fully comprehend it. An ass-backwards philosphy if I ever saw one.
Co-sign

Science only proves the functioning of GOD'S creation. For all those that don't think God exists, have you never wondered how earth was created. Atheist tend to believe in the Big Bang. But this is just the stupidest concept ever thought. How can an explosion create billion coincidances ? How come from an explosion, it creates human and by coincidence it creates proper air for this human to live? How come it creates a MAN and a WOMAN, that fit together to breed and keep a line of descent forever ? For a guy that believes in such theory, then for him life is but billion coincidences. The only theory making sense is the presence of a Creator, a Mightier Being, capable of everything. A Presence that created, crafted and molded together a "perfect" world, where everything has a sense. This is why I believe in God, and no Science is going to prove this, Never!

Iron Fist
06-02-2006, 08:45 PM
its totally possible that a god is indeed keeping the planets in order, but unless u can offer some evidence or proof to back up this claim, its worthless

That's what faith is about. Believing in something you can't prove, cause proving the presence of God is impossible. The opposite is also impossible, no one can prove or say without a doubt there is no God.

I truthfully believe in God, but I don't think he keeps the planet in order. He created a world for us to live in, and he gave us the responsiblity to deal with our life and our planet. We are killing our planet right now and there's no way God is going to interfere. Anyways the day of the Last Judgment will come sooner or later, before the poisoned gift God gave us, i.e. Intelligence, kills us all.

So I think there's no way God keep the planets in order. I don't think he's God of the Universe. The Universe is Infinite, and there's no way God is unique in his genre, IMO.

Sicka than aidZ
06-02-2006, 09:45 PM
if one was to think, contemplate or act like how "God" and the rest of the cast of characters think, contemplates or behaves in the bible, they would be considered the most immoral person on the planet.

i dont hate god.. tho (because that would imply that a god does exist)

Bingo! Timbs always nails it on the head, u made god up, you're god, big deal, means nothing. peace

Urban_Journalz
06-03-2006, 12:55 AM
outlandish claim?? You wouldn't believe if you had all the proof before your very eyes. The bottom line is, you don't believe, because you choose not to. It's not about proof, it's about belief. How can you demand proof when all you'll do with the proof is attribute it to something else?? simpleton.

Kong
06-03-2006, 07:22 AM
i havent read it but somone was telling me about steven hawkings book about shit being so well designed there had to of been a creator, i heard its hard to argue with but maybe not for timbs, anyone read it?

Kong
06-03-2006, 09:21 AM
That is a shit quote from duke, sounds like a very obvious statement trying. Some people put stuff that cant be explained on god, some see that and say they put everything that cant be explained on god cos some others do that. Duke is a tosser. lol.

I have not read the book but im sure an argument is there. I doubt he says its a complex system but theres no answer so it must be god.

whitey
06-03-2006, 10:08 AM
i havent read it but somone was telling me about steven hawkings book about shit being so well designed there had to of been a creator, i heard its hard to argue with but maybe not for timbs, anyone read it?


and what about the billions of other planets that are nothing but wastelands and balls of gas inhospitable to anything living, was god doing some trial and error expirements?

Kong
06-03-2006, 10:17 AM
What?

I have not read the book im asking if anyone has because its meant to be good.

Iron Fist
06-03-2006, 10:34 AM
and what about the billions of other planets that are nothing but wastelands and balls of gas inhospitable to anything living, was god doing some trial and error expirements?
No one said God created the Universe. I believe in God and I don't think he is the Creator of the whole Universe. I think he created Earth that's all, maybe other planets but how do I know. Plus, how can you say other planets are "nothing but wastelands and balls of gas inhospitable to anything living" ? This is a stupid comment. Have you ever visited another planet. It's maybe proven that planets of Solar System are inhabitable and is just a bunch of wastelands, but how can you say that EVERY FUCKING PLANET in the Universe, the Inifinite, is just like this. How can you say we are the only living creatures in the Universe? This is absurd. Chances that other living creatures exist in the Universe are Infinite, as there is no ending to it.

Iron Fist
06-03-2006, 10:35 AM
I've come to a thinking. Maybe in the beginning Earth was just a bunch of wasteland like you said. God came and he created life, and made an proper atmosphere to live in.

whitey
06-03-2006, 04:45 PM
No one said God created the Universe. I believe in God and I don't think he is the Creator of the whole Universe. I think he created Earth that's all, maybe other planets but how do I know. Plus, how can you say other planets are "nothing but wastelands and balls of gas inhospitable to anything living" ? This is a stupid comment. Have you ever visited another planet. It's maybe proven that planets of Solar System are inhabitable and is just a bunch of wastelands, but how can you say that EVERY FUCKING PLANET in the Universe, the Inifinite, is just like this. How can you say we are the only living creatures in the Universe? This is absurd. Chances that other living creatures exist in the Universe are Infinite, as there is no ending to it.

hah, did i say EVERY planet?

slow your roll buddy.


and how the fuck would it work that he created just this one planet, thats some wishful thinking. and are you meaning to say he created it like it is today, or like the ball of gas that it was several billion years ago, and he just knew it would turn into what it has? Because thats a fuckload of a time to wait for a science experiement, which is what your making it out to sound like. (but im pretty sure thats the reason a lot of religions deemed the earth was only 6,000 years old, which is supposedly something god told them)

whitey
06-03-2006, 07:48 PM
there were plenty of people who always thought the belief in a god was bullshit but it wasnt until reason started to take a little more of a hold in life that they could speak their views without being burned at the stake or stoned to death.

what erks me though is people that dont really think how religion came about. it all happend in a time way long ago when they didnt have science to explain a lot of natural phenomena that people could only attribute to some super natural being.

brown_dogg
06-03-2006, 11:44 PM
If your main concern is punishment, look at the nations that came before these. Egypt, Rome, Greece, Sodom & Gomorrah. All of these nations were much like this one. Full of people who were weak in faith. Or even worse, had no faith at all. In some cases, like Egypt, and The Cities Of The Plain (Sodom & Gomorrah), they recieved warnings. Direct warnings from their Prophets. However, ignorance, stupidity, and sheer disobedience in the name of being "cool" is what ultimately did them in. If you notice from the case of Musa (Moses), Upon Whom Be Peace, ans Pharoah, there were MANY warnings (water into blood, frogs, flies, locusts, flaming hale, and deaths of the first born sons of Egypt.), before the final destruction came. The Red Sea collapsing in on his army.

Just in case you want to say, "Oh, there's no proof." here's a website....for the kids.....www.arkdiscovery.com (http://www.arkdiscovery.com). Archaeologists, found and took pictures of not only the bottom of The Red Sea, where relics and bones of Pharaohs army still lie, they also have photos of Gomorrah. Where you can see plainly that although some structures still stand, instead of stone, it's ASH. Not to mention that they also found balls of sulphur with higher contents of the material in that one specemin, than could be found within hundreds of miles.

God's punishment and the way He punishes, more importantly, have not changed one bit. Most of you simply don't recognize them. Hurricaine Katrina would be the most recent and effective example I could give you. Lets do the math........
Wicked cities and nations didn't recieve thier punishment until after they had become comfortable in thier practices. New Orleans, what have they?? Mardi Gras. What IS Mardi Gras?? Well, as far as the ORIGINAL purpose, it was the last chance to party before "Lent", which leads up to Easter. Now, if you have any kind of sense, you already see WTF the problem is.....moving on, it doesn't take a genius to see that the current purposes of Marid Gras are WAY out of hand as far as anything even REMOTELY Holy.
Just as God sent Pharaoh warnings with the now infamous Plagues Of Egypt, so he does with all other nations. Katrina got almost as much press as the Tsunami that hit Indonesia a while back. Why? LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION!!!! It was a warning, a direct warning. Just like if an earthquake hit Las Vegas, or, say it with me now....SIN CITY.....and it buried the place beneath the Earth, it would get even MORE press. Only because shallow-minded people are only concerned with, "Oh no! Las Vegas is gone! What are we gonna do??!!" Not remembering the above mentioned facts. Those being that while America is powerful, so was Rome, Greece, Egypt, and the rest of 'em. Let's not forget nations that we know about, but don't know WTF happened to them. Atlantis, Pacifica (OZ). Nations who were more powerful in Armies, had greater riches, and technologies that we STILL can't figure out. Now look.....RUINS. No one survives. In some cases, even thier languages are dead.


you make him sound so evil. killing all these ppl. the killing of any person shouldn't be justified.

and in new orleans, the consequence of the flooding: ppl didn't fear a god. instead they hated the government. if a god's master plan is to make everyone hate government, and therefore hate control, and therefore hate the way a god has power (through control, i.e. the bible and the church), then the plan doesn't work.

My First Timbs
06-04-2006, 03:32 AM
there were plenty of people who always thought the belief in a god was bullshit but it wasnt until reason started to take a little more of a hold in life that they could speak their views without being burned at the stake or stoned to death.

what erks me though is people that dont really think how religion came about. it all happend in a time way long ago when they didnt have science to explain a lot of natural phenomena that people could only attribute to some super natural being.

indeed

:Originally Posted by My First Timbs

indeed there is a direct correlation. It must first be known and understood that all religions and religious concepts stem from early hominids living in hunter gatherer societies at the whim of nature. Populations who rely more on nature and the whim of the natural world for daily survival are more prone to have developed gods and religious ideals focused on their current day to day survival. These types of gods are called “focal gods”. Focal gods are gods that preside over some aspect of reality that directly impact the daily lifestyle of the believer.

For example, a god of fire, a god of rain, a god of fertiity etc etc. Focal god communities were also prone to polytheism (just based on the nature of the belief, its only natural to have more than one god.. what good is praying to the god of fire when the soil isn’t fertile?) It must also be known that the focal god was not thought to control the whole earth. The concept of “the entire earth” was not even born yet.

as time went on and humanity life style changed , our gods and ideas of religion and god changed as well . (notice I didn’t say that humanity “progressed”.. progress is a subjective assertion!). As populations started harnessing certain aspects of the natural world, a reliance on the focal god concept decreased. In addition, now gods were less focal and started becoming anthropomorphisized (made more human like) and were now able to be sad, happy, angry etc. This death of of the focal god lead to the death of polytheism. With the ushering in of monotheism also now came the birth of rage, persecution and fear of others who don’t hold the same god concept as u!

This is why thru wars and bloodshed, the losers “god” and religion was either destroyed or somehow made more similar to the now new ruling class.

This trend continues to this very day.

Culture and anthropology and human evolution and religion type are all tied together. Cultures who have been thru many wars and oppression on average have gods who were originally less charming than populations who experienced no war or oppression (such as the case with the native American and aboriginal peoples)




no. But first i must say that ur question stems from a misunderstanding of evolution. Evolutionisnt goal oriented or purpose oriented. Evolution is merely nothing but a change in the genes over time. G/T

Humans, although not living at the whim of nature and feeling the effects of geographic environmental stress on the same level we did 15000 years ago, does not mean that evolution has slowed or stopped. Its still going on. we are part of nature and will never be able to escape evolution.

recent studies have shows tha the human thumb is migrating closer to the index finger at a rate of 0.02 millimeters per generation. This is evolution ! the reason for this has to do with sexual selection and natural selection. this is just one small example among a myriad. evolution will be in existence as long as there are creatures on the planet with genomes.


a lot of people on this board really need to read this.

whitey
06-04-2006, 09:58 AM
2. What irks me are people who don't actually know what they're talking about, talking about it. "a time way long ago" - when was that? Sounds like you're talking Star Wars. And the point remains, if we go from point A to point B, where point A is 'no science' = disbelief in God and point B is 'science' = belief in God, then there is a continuity...a linear progression. So for science to be introduced (to save us all :looking:), someone at some point had to suddenly 'get smart', when everyone around them was ignorant. This thesis makes no logical sense.


A long time ago, means a long fucking time ago. 15,000 years and more. When an early human saw lightining being shot down from the sky, What the hell are they supposed to think? O wait, because science has always been around and people of 15,000 ago and more were certainly on the same level as us they immedialty thought .... Lightning is a powerful natural electrostatic discharge produced during a thunderstorm. This abrupt electric discharge is accompanied by the emission of visible light and other forms of electromagnetic radiation. The electruc current passing through the discharge channels rapidly heats and expands the air into plasma, producing acoustic shock waves (thunder) in the atmosphere......Are you fucking serious?

By the time something like that (and many other scientific discoveries) had happened religion had already been intreched in society. Too many people had already accepted it as a staple of their lives. Once its there is very hard to get out.

whitey
06-04-2006, 03:32 PM
^ I just disagree. Humans are curious by nature. They have a brain and they tried to used it. Back then what else would they think.

They would try and attribute something to it. Same thing with fire and rain and numerous other happenings in nature. Thats why almost all ancient civilizations thought there was a god for all that stuff. They didn't know any better, they didnt know that these were just natural phenomena explained by certain natural processes. They thought something biggerhad to be causing it. And since they didn't know any better they attributed it to something more powerful than man. A concept of a god was born. And its been with us ever since. Of course it ment different things to different people, and turned into different things from different people. Hence islam was started by certain peoples and its practiced mainly by the same peoples today. Same with chrisitanity, and hinduism, and buddism, and jewdaism. They all basically are saying the same thing, but came from different peoples, with different cultures which explains difference among the religions. But basically they are all the same.

A similair way I may try and explain what i mean is when you look at african americans today in the United States. Why do a lot of them act the way the do? There is not essentially somethign wrong with them that makes them commit more crime, do worse in school ect. ect. It is because of the way they were brought here and treated therafter that has affected them and had such lasting affects. Now this is a rather blanket statment because I am by no means am infering that all blacks americans are like this, because its not at all the case. There have been many that have broken the chain and are succseful people. But with a lot of them, like people who maintain this believe in religions and god, its something that has happend long ago and the effects are just still being seen. Its hard to break the cycle. Once it was started long ago with humans and religion it was just perpetuated, the same with the state of many africans in this country.

Urban_Journalz
06-04-2006, 04:26 PM
You know, if God didn't hate fags, Sodom & Gomorrah would still be standing. And if any of you bitches want your beloved SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that this place DID exist and he ruins ARE still around...go to www.arkdiscovery.com that is.....if you're not too much a punk to do so. Juevos???

whitey
06-04-2006, 05:16 PM
You know, if God didn't hate fags, Sodom & Gomorrah would still be standing. And if any of you bitches want your beloved SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that this place DID exist and he ruins ARE still around...go to www.arkdiscovery.com (http://www.arkdiscovery.com) that is.....if you're not too much a punk to do so. Juevos???

its a joke of a post. what would god really give a shit if people were gay? hes god.

Wamukota X
06-05-2006, 06:59 AM
of course it existed.. we just didnt have any evidence or proof to believe it existed!

and thats exactly the point!

its totally possible that a god is indeed keeping the planets in order, but unless u can offer some evidence or proof to back up this claim, its worthless

just like it would be worthless to talk about dna before it was discovered


This thread was not intended to question the existence of God but I see it has taken that route. By you own statements you are saying just because man cannot validate the fact that God is keeping the planets in orbit then the thought of God is worthless. There is tons of scientific explainations that have not yet been reveal to this current society. So are you saying you base all you beliefs on scientific evidence. A few years ago over 90% of the "test" in the
New England Journal of Medicine were found inconclusive. That says alot about todays and yesterdays scientific methods.

Koolish
06-05-2006, 09:56 AM
the main issue with you people reading these things is that you're misinterpreting them. did you know that many historians believe that plato was gay because he always professed "love" for his students? love is a strong word used today, and it's the same with hate.

to hate something doesn't mean you must wish all bad upon them, but the things you are to hate are things you are to not like. that's it, don't like them. hate today is a very strong word.

whitey
06-05-2006, 11:55 AM
the main issue with you people reading these things is that you're misinterpreting them. did you know that many historians believe that plato was gay because he always professed "love" for his students? love is a strong word used today, and it's the same with hate.

to hate something doesn't mean you must wish all bad upon them, but the things you are to hate are things you are to not like. that's it, don't like them. hate today is a very strong word.

I think it had more to do with the homosexual relations he had with males of his time.

My First Timbs
06-05-2006, 05:24 PM
This thread was not intended to question the existence of God but I see it has taken that route. By you own statements you are saying just because man cannot validate the fact that God is keeping the planets in orbit then the thought of God is worthless. There is tons of scientific explainations that have not yet been reveal to this current society. So are you saying you base all you beliefs on scientific evidence. A few years ago over 90% of the "test" in the
New England Journal of Medicine were found inconclusive. That says alot about todays and yesterdays scientific methods.

what im saying and said is that if u have no rational reason or basis to belive something and u still believe it, just realize that its an irrational belief that has no merit.

i could believe right now that there is an invisible pink unicorn under my bed! are u to take this claim seriously without any evidence to back it up? of course not! its an irrational claim!

i base all beliefs on what th evidence dictates! this is the power and burden of free thought.. the evidence dictates what to believe.........

in similar token, it may possibly (but we all know its highly unlikely) that there are indeed invisible unicorns who live under ppl's beds.. but until that is proven, i will side with reason and not believe in invisible unicorns....

Iron Fist
06-05-2006, 05:33 PM
For all those who only base their beliefs on scientific explanations, I must admit that not every phenomenon is explanable. Just like God many things happening on earth cannot be proved. For example, nobody was able to provide a proper explanations of what happened at Point Pleasant in 1966 (please read) (http://www.prairieghosts.com/moth.html). How can you explain the presence of the Mothman ? How is that possible ? If you only base your beliefs on scientific explanations, you would not believe this is true, cause it's unexplanable. Just like the presence of God for atheists, I believe. There are many other supernatural phenomenons that happen on earth, like people seeing ghosts or spirits, and I think it is linked to the presence of God in some way.

I've read on the net that atheists believe there was no beginning, is that true ?

Iron Fist
06-05-2006, 05:39 PM
I read something on internet and I find it very interresting:

"If we know the creation has a beginning, we are faced with another logical question_was the creation caused or was it not caused? The Bible states, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Not only does the Bible maintain that there was a cause_a creation_but it also tells us what the cause was. It was God. The atheist tells us that "matter is self-existing and not created." If matter had a beginning and yet was uncaused, one must logically maintain that something would have had to come into existence out of nothing. From empty space with no force, no matter, no energy, and no intelligence, matter would have to become existent. Even if this could happen by some strange new process unknown to science today, there is a logical problem.
In order for matter to come out of nothing, all of our scientific laws dealing with the conservation of matter/energy would have to be wrong, invalidating all of chemistry. All of our laws of conservation of angular momentum would have to be wrong, invalidating all of physics. All of our laws of conservation of electric charge would have to be wrong, invalidating all of electronics and demanding that your TV set not work!! Your television set may not work, but that is not the reason! In order to believe matter is uncaused, one has to discard known laws and principles of science. No reasonable person is going to do this simply to maintain a personal atheistic position.
The atheist's assertion that matter is eternal is wrong. The atheist's assertion that the universe is uncaused and selfexisting is also incorrect The Bible's assertion that there was a beginning which was caused is supported strongly by the available scientific evidence."

Iron Fist
06-05-2006, 05:42 PM
For more "proof" about the presence of God, which you may call valid or not, read this page:

http://www.doesgodexist.org/Phamplets/Mansproof.html

Koolish
06-05-2006, 05:46 PM
I think it had more to do with the homosexual relations he had with males of his time. see, you just proved my point.

and i can see this post is about why the Bible is wrong if "hate" is used in this book of "good". the Bible is reality, it's a largely historical book. if you want to show real people who do not express hate for something then they are not human. when it referenced God hating something, it told the israelites don't do this shit because it's not good for you.

you also have to take into account TRANSLATION!!!!!! when this is being translated the translator will use the word in english that best represents what is being said in ancient hebrew/greek/latin whatever. until we know what is being said in the original version we can't come to perfect conclusions.

people used words differently ages ago, and i think it's Greek where there are numerous different words for "love", while we have only one. just an example of how English isn't the master language that can perfectly represent all others.

My First Timbs
06-05-2006, 05:49 PM
I read something on internet and I find it very interresting:

"If we know the creation has a beginning, we are faced with another logical question_was the creation caused or was it not caused? The Bible states, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Not only does the Bible maintain that there was a cause_a creation_but it also tells us what the cause was. It was God. The atheist tells us that "matter is self-existing and not created." If matter had a beginning and yet was uncaused, one must logically maintain that something would have had to come into existence out of nothing. From empty space with no force, no matter, no energy, and no intelligence, matter would have to become existent. Even if this could happen by some strange new process unknown to science today, there is a logical problem.
In order for matter to come out of nothing, all of our scientific laws dealing with the conservation of matter/energy would have to be wrong, invalidating all of chemistry. All of our laws of conservation of angular momentum would have to be wrong, invalidating all of physics. All of our laws of conservation of electric charge would have to be wrong, invalidating all of electronics and demanding that your TV set not work!! Your television set may not work, but that is not the reason! In order to believe matter is uncaused, one has to discard known laws and principles of science. No reasonable person is going to do this simply to maintain a personal atheistic position.
The atheist's assertion that matter is eternal is wrong. The atheist's assertion that the universe is uncaused and selfexisting is also incorrect The Bible's assertion that there was a beginning which was caused is supported strongly by the available scientific evidence."

ahh .. u bring up what is known formally as the "first cause postulate"

1) everything in existence does not have to have a cause! (this is where the claim first goes wrong).. it assumes all things that exist have a cuase (this is not necessarily so and has been demonstrated by advances in quantum mechanics)

2) the word "cause" is a sly attempt at intelligent design.. cause sneakily implies design.. design sneakily implies purpose.. purpose sneakily implies a designer.

3) the laws of conservation of energy did not apply until te system was created.. meaning, until a fraction of a second after the big bang.. so its irrational to apply a concept as such to creation...... its invalid

4) i dont know where u got that from, but ive never heard an athistic argument that all matter is "eternal".. absurd misrepresenttion of the athiestic position

My First Timbs
06-05-2006, 05:50 PM
For more "proof" about the presence of God, which you may call valid or not, read this page:

http://www.doesgodexist.org/Phamplets/Mansproof.html

im glad u put quotation marks around "proof"

Iron Fist
06-05-2006, 06:25 PM
im glad u put quotation marks around "proof"
Well it meant that I did not know whether it was valid or not.

My First Timbs
06-05-2006, 06:39 PM
peace iron fist

see the thing is u have to realize that the religion has an agenda... any and all claim that allegedly provide proofs or evidence for their view must always be taken with a grain of salt!

why?

because they have an agenda and motive!

rational thought and science on the othe rhand dont have an agenda or hidden motive! whatverthe evidence dictates, is what will be reported and belived in...

religion begins with an interpretation and then lastly tries to come up with arguments that allow their interpretation to seem valid! its actually quite funny and sad at the same time because most humans are preyed upon by this ever since they are infants!

Wamukota X
06-06-2006, 06:46 AM
i base all beliefs on what th evidence dictates! this is the power and burden of free thought.. the evidence dictates what to believe.........




I overstand why you say the things you say and write the things that you write. You thinking is limiting to this "evidence" realm based on earthly proof. If there is not documented evidence than you feel what is being discussed is useless. And that's you opinion. It is free thought but this free thought is regulated by how much evidence is in that square. By your own words, evidence places limits on your free thought. That's you opinion also, I'm not knockin' it. But I know for a fact that my free thought is as limitless as the universe which has yet to be fully explored and contains infinite amounts of wisdom. Your case about the "invisible pink unicorn" is absurd. If someone wants to know whats under their bed all they have to do is look.

My First Timbs
06-06-2006, 08:56 AM
Your case about the "invisible pink unicorn" is absurd. If someone wants to know whats under their bed all they have to do is look.

ahhh so u admit that belief in an invisible diety, power or entity is absurd.. congrats

there is no difference between a claim that there is an invisible pink unicorn under my bed , and a claim that an invisible force, god, supernatural realm, power or entity exists and presides over the universe

congrats on admitting this to us all and yourself

how can someone look under their bed to see if the unicorn is there if its allegedly invisible?
congrats

Wamukota X
06-06-2006, 10:58 AM
ahhh so u admit that belief in an invisible diety, power or entity is absurd.. congrats

there is no difference between a claim that there is an invisible pink unicorn under my bed , and a claim that an invisible force, god, supernatural realm, power or entity exists and presides over the universe

congrats on admitting this to us all and yourself

how can someone look under their bed to see if the unicorn is there if its allegedly invisible?
congrats



dude you like totally proved his point.



This is where both of you are totally wrong. The God I know is not invisible. That's what happens when someone's thinking is limiting to an "evidence" box.

Wamukota X
06-06-2006, 11:35 AM
how can someone look under their bed to see if the unicorn is there if its allegedly invisible?
congrats



There are numerous references in the Bible and Qu'ran that verifies that God is not invisible. But since you have built up this atheist/evolutionist veneer it would be pointless to list this information. My beliefs are solidified and it appears you are confident in your beliefs. This is not a contest to say, "ahhaa" your wrong and I am right. Those games are for children.

My First Timbs
06-06-2006, 12:36 PM
There are numerous references in the Bible and Qu'ran that verifies that God is not invisible. But since you have built up this atheist/evolutionist veneer it would be pointless to list this information. My beliefs are solidified and it appears you are confident in your beliefs. This is not a contest to say, "ahhaa" your wrong and I am right. Those games are for children.

what are u referring to? no childish opinions coming from me (regarding im rite and your wrong)
thats not what its about! Dont try and "belittle" the issue......
ive read and studied the Quran vigorously and objectively without emotional attachment (which is truly beneficial).
And I am a totally open minded individual..

the problem is that open minded to you = allowing irrational beliefs to have merit that have no evidential base

open minded to me = willing to accept any and everything as long as it has some verifiable merit (even if that something goes against what im comfortable with.. im obligated to accept it!)
you claim now that Allah is not invisible (a weak rebuttal to your claim's dismissal due to my invisible pink unicorn) and you openly admitting (and shooting urself in the foot) by stating how absurd that mode of reasoning is..

please share the proof or evidene that allah is not invisible... (and dont hide behind symbolism)

P.S... none of this is childish.. i take all of this as a serious issue.

it is truly a serious issue because basically and bluntly one of us is totally incorrect! There is no gray area or ambiguity. The claims are decidedly polarized. One of us is wrong!


the way to determine who is "right" and who is "wrong" rests on the nature of "objective reality" and evidence. The ball is in your court because Im sitting comfortably within the realm of objectivity and evidence!



you, yourself claim that evidence is a "limiting factor".. and that individuals should open themself up to possibilities that dont reside in a rational realm based on evidence and proof. thats just plain silly and an excuse for that which has no evidential base to back it up! Next time I go skydiving, i will disregard checking my parachute beforehand, because who cares, "evidence is limiting factor" and who cares if my pack shows "evidence" of being tampered with....

The ball is in your court (and the court of those who follow your reasoning) to provide some sort of merit to your claim. The invisible pink unicorn under my bed is the same thing as the Quran's Allah .. If we really wanna get serious, im bold enuff to say that they have the same exact powers and abilities! My invisible pet unicorn under my bed is not visible.......not able to be subjected to science......not able to be detected........and i can make any claim about my pet invisible unicorn and simply justify it by saying that i dont have to rely on "evidence" because "evidence" is a limiting factor.. LMAO whats the difference?


I am open minded to possibilities, as long as they have merit (verifiable merit)
the question is.. are you open to the possibility that your claim and philosophical stance could potentially be faulty? I (and any rational person) willingly admits that their stance could be faulty, but it has to be demonstrated to be faulty. My stance could indeed be faulty, but before i abondone it.......it must be shown (demonstrated thru reason of course)

its a sad day when the individual siding with reason is ridiculed as being unreasonable......

Wamukota X
06-06-2006, 02:35 PM
The invisible pink unicorn under my bed is the same thing as the Quran's Allah .. If we really wanna get serious, im bold enuff to say that they have the same exact powers and abilities! My invisible pet unicorn under my bed is not visible.......not able to be subjected to science......not able to be detected........and i can make any claim about my pet invisible unicorn and simply justify it by saying that i dont have to rely on "evidence" because "evidence" is a limiting factor..



I am diffinitely not demeaning this issue. I have not shot myself in the foot as you say. There is a major difference between an unseen force such as gravity and fantasy land animals. That fact that Allah is visible and regulates such forces, is were the disagreement resides. Again it is pointless for me to guide you to evidence that you already disagree with in reference to the existence and visibility of God. There is no symbolism to hide behind it is clear to anyone who can read.

You said you have vigorously and objectively studied the Qu'ran. With all of that work put in, it is obvious that the words I post cannot begin to compare to the Qu'ran, no matter what I say or show you will not influence your "open mind". It is true there is no gray area here, I will leave with the notion that I am right and you will probably do likewise. There is no court, this is not a game and there are no projectiles being thrown around. Are you saying that this invisible pink unicorn and Allah have the same powers? If so, what more can I say to a person with that mentality? If that is what you think so be it. I will not even try to contend with your mind on that issue. Mocking Allah does not prove your point.

My First Timbs
06-06-2006, 04:33 PM
I am diffinitely not demeaning this issue. I have not shot myself in the foot as you say. There is a major difference between an unseen force such as gravity and fantasy land animals. That fact that Allah is visible and regulates such forces, is were the disagreement resides. Again it is pointless for me to guide you to evidence that you already disagree with in reference to the existence and visibility of God. There is no symbolism to hide behind it is clear to anyone who can read.

You said you have vigorously and objectively studied the Qu'ran. With all of that work put in, it is obvious that the words I post cannot begin to compare to the Qu'ran, no matter what I say or show you will not influence your "open mind". It is true there is no gray area here, I will leave with the notion that I am right and you will probably do likewise. There is no court, this is not a game and there are no projectiles being thrown around. Are you saying that this invisible pink unicorn and Allah have the same powers? If so, what more can I say to a person with that mentality? If that is what you think so be it. I will not even try to contend with your mind on that issue. Mocking Allah does not prove your point.

i wasnt mocking "allah" to prove my point.

i was mocking your own argument to prove the very point which u unknowingly helped me prove about your stance...that being the absurdity of belief in something that is not verifiable.

im just puzzled how u claim that allah is not invisible...and if allah isnt invisible, how is the entity seen ?(so to speak)..its a very simple issue

there is no difference between an imaginary unicorn that cant be verified compared to an unseen entity that cant be verified to exist other than in the mind of the believer

My First Timbs
06-06-2006, 04:48 PM
It is true there is no gray area here, I will leave with the notion that I am right and you will probably do likewise.

see here is the crux of te issue Wamukota,

im not "leaving" thinking im "right" and your "wrong"

it honestly isnt as simple as that..

what i am leaving with is a profound confidence in knowing that all of my arguments and viewpoints fall in line with evidential thinking, rationalism and objectivity..and rely heavily on that which can be substantiated objectively.......



normally, these 3 tenets will steer one in the right direction of truth.

lets say 10000 years from now, if humans are no longer here and our planet is visited by a foregn alien species, it is reasonable to conclude that they would be a prime example of an "objective unbiased observer".... with that in mind, im pretty sure any writngs or ideas or stances that could be substantiated with reason and rationality would aid them greatly in trying to understand the reality of homo sapiens......

thats the power of that which is verifiable

Wamukota X
06-07-2006, 11:17 AM
see here is the crux of te issue Wamukota,

im not "leaving" thinking im "right" and your "wrong"

it honestly isnt as simple as that..

what i am leaving with is a profound confidence in knowing that all of my arguments and viewpoints fall in line with evidential thinking, rationalism and objectivity..and rely heavily on that which can be substantiated objectively.......



normally, these 3 tenets will steer one in the right direction of truth.

lets say 10000 years from now, if humans are no longer here and our planet is visited by a foregn alien species, it is reasonable to conclude that they would be a prime example of an "objective unbiased observer".... with that in mind, im pretty sure any writngs or ideas or stances that could be substantiated with reason and rationality would aid them greatly in trying to understand the reality of homo sapiens......

thats the power of that which is verifiable



I did not prove any point of yours. Allah is verifiable to those with an "open mind". You believe in invisible pink unicorns and I believe in Allah. That just gives me a glimpse into your mentality.

Maybe its just me, but you really aren't making any sense. You are beginning to appear quite desperate to prove something to who knows who. I know you have a few degrees and such but just because one man gives another man a piece of paper that says degree that does not make that man an expert on the subject. All the degrees around this planet not one of them are experts in their so-called field. I am pretty sure you spent at a minimum of 4 years for your undergraduate degree, a minimum of 2 years for a Masters if you have one and a range of 2-3 years for you Doctorate of Philosophy in whatever field that you studied. So, I see you have at a minimum of 8 years of your life, maybe a few books, maybe somemore paid speaking engagements at various Universities and such all vested in this Evolutionary theory. I said all that to say you are trying to hard to rationalize your stance on Evolution and the existence of Allah. I have a degree that I obtained with honors but that doesn't make me an expert in that field. This modern science has not even skimmed the surface of knowledge.

I am about to veer off our subject just a little if I haven't already.
You said:

ive read and studied the Quran vigorously and objectively without emotional attachment

As I stated above you obviously have alot invested in this belief of
Evolution. You might not have had any "emotional attachment" when you "read and studied the Quran vigorously and objectively" but I am positive you had other motivations or else why read the Qu'ran if you don't believe in Allah? I'm not looking for no answers from you at this point. But of course the author of "A Call to Sanity" cannot agree with a muslim. Maybe your motivation is pride or financial, but who cares. I don't have any questions for you at this point and leave you to your invisible pink unicorns.

whitey
06-07-2006, 12:20 PM
I did not prove any point of yours. Allah is verifiable to those with an "open mind". You believe in invisible pink unicorns and I believe in Allah. That just gives me a glimpse into your mentality.

Maybe its just me, but you really aren't making any sense. You are beginning to appear quite desperate to prove something to who knows who. I know you have a few degrees and such but just because one man gives another man a piece of paper that says that degree does not make that man an expert on the subject. All the degrees around this planet not one of them are experts in their so-called field. I am pretty sure you spent at a minimum of 4 years for your undergraduate degree, a minimum of 2 years for a Masters if you have one and a range of 2-3 years for you Doctorate of Philosophy in whatever field that you studied. So, I see you have at a minimum of 8 years of your life, maybe a few books, maybe somemore paid speaking engagements at various Universities and such all vested in this Evolutionary theory. I said all that to say you are trying to hard to rationalize your stance on Evolution and the existence of Allah. I have a degree that I obtained with honors but that doesn't make me an expert in that field. This modern science has not even skimmed the surface of knowledge.

I am about to veer off our subject just a little if I haven't already.
You said:



As I stated above you obviously have alot invested in this belief of
Evolution. You might not have had any "emotional attachment" when you "read and studied the Quran vigorously and objectively" but I am positive you had other motivations or else why read the Qu'ran if you don't believe in Allah? I'm not looking for no answers from you at this point. But of course the author of "A Call to Sanity" cannot agree with a muslim. Maybe your motivation is pride or financial, but who cares. I don't have any questions for you at this point and leave you to your invisible pink unicorns.


You are just avoiding the subject.


Why can’t someone read the Qu'ran if they don’t believe in Allah? Maybe to learn, to be able to discuss something instead of just talking out of ones ass. to see the other sides point of view. Any of those possibly?


And you still don’t get the point of what he’s saying. All evidence at present time points to evolution and not some god being the creator of all things. He’s not going out with a set agenda to prove evolution because he fancies it more than Allah. He’s coming with that point of view because logic and reason point him in that direction. Because believing in Allah is like believing in the pink unicorn. It is just a figment of people’s imagination with no discernable proof to back up your claims. You’re still missing the point of his analogy between the pink unicorn and Allah/god/instert religious deity.

Wamukota X
06-07-2006, 02:02 PM
You are just avoiding the subject.


Why can’t someone read the Qu'ran if they don’t believe in Allah? Maybe to learn, to be able to discuss something instead of just talking out of ones ass. to see the other sides point of view. Any of those possibly?


And you still don’t get the point of what he’s saying. All evidence at present time points to evolution and not some god being the creator of all things. He’s not going out with a set agenda to prove evolution because he fancies it more than Allah. He’s coming with that point of view because logic and reason point him in that direction. Because believing in Allah is like believing in the pink unicorn. It is just a figment of people’s imagination with no discernable proof to back up your claims. You’re still missing the point of his analogy between the pink unicorn and Allah/god/instert religious deity.


I am not avoiding the subject, the subject has been addressed and I am through with that. Anyone can read the Qu'ran, Timbs said that he didn't have any emotional attachment. I was addressing the emotional attachment and objectivity. He made his stance I made mine and both of our minds are still were we begin.

My First Timbs
06-07-2006, 03:43 PM
wamukota

u have missed or are deliberately avoiding addressing my correlation with the IPU (inv pink unicorn) (a recognized analogy referring to the unverifiable) and your Allah... u are skating around the issue "o so conveniently",

but meanwhile ever since your post a few ways back where u admitted that belief in the unverifable is absurd.(and consequently proved my point better than i had imagined). u are the one who is appearing desperate....

like i said b4.... the ball is in your court to provide a rational claim that gives credence to Allah not being invisible and wholy different from my imaginary pet unicorn... u still havent..

as i stated earlier.. being open mided = willing to accept whatever the evidence dictates......

with that understand.. please help "free my mind" some more by providing some reason and evidence to believe in the qualities of the Quran and Allah (that would be any different than my pet invisible unicorn)

P.S... i prayed to my invisible unicorn last nite to help get rid of my migraine headache.... and wouldnt u know it! it worked!

(but then again.. i also was relaxing and taking tylenol at the same time)

next time, i will try another unverifiable entity and see what happens....
Timbs

Koolish
06-07-2006, 04:36 PM
"being open mided = willing to accept whatever the evidence dictates"
it's sad to see even your being "open minded" is attached with bias.
o·pen-mind·ed (http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/omacr.gifhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifphttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gifn-mhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/imacr.gifnhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifdhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gifd)
adj. Having or showing receptiveness to new and different ideas or the opinions of others.

Aqueous Moon
06-07-2006, 07:29 PM
^ Word!

And, where Timbs stumbles at is when he assumes that the knowledge of God is based on something invisible and un verifiable.

The truth is, Timbs never asked Wamukota X to explain his knowledge before he went about trying to disprove it.

Wamukota said that the God he knows is not invisible and Timbs went on to argue that it is.

To be soo gun ho about "science", it seems that Timbs is quite open to taking things on face value without doing his research and then proclaiming that his initail fallacy proves his point.

That is circular reasoning at it's best.

Wamukota X
06-08-2006, 06:53 AM
wamukota

u have missed or are deliberately avoiding addressing my correlation with the IPU (inv pink unicorn) (a recognized analogy referring to the unverifiable) and your Allah... u are skating around the issue "o so conveniently",

but meanwhile ever since your post a few ways back where u admitted that belief in the unverifable is absurd.(and consequently proved my point better than i had imagined). u are the one who is appearing desperate....

like i said b4.... the ball is in your court to provide a rational claim that gives credence to Allah not being invisible and wholy different from my imaginary pet unicorn... u still havent..

as i stated earlier.. being open mided = willing to accept whatever the evidence dictates......

with that understand.. please help "free my mind" some more by providing some reason and evidence to believe in the qualities of the Quran and Allah (that would be any different than my pet invisible unicorn)

P.S... i prayed to my invisible unicorn last nite to help get rid of my migraine headache.... and wouldnt u know it! it worked!

(but then again.. i also was relaxing and taking tylenol at the same time)

next time, i will try another unverifiable entity and see what happens....
Timbs


I see what you are doing. You are using an old-fashioned technique called the Strawman Argument, in which you are taking my arguments out of context, and misrepresenting them and trying to resale them in a weaker form. I have explained to you numerous times that Allah is visible that alone negates any claim that I proved any point of yours. So I have addressed your point as I have done numerous times and you so conveniently ignored. I said that your invisible pink unicorn idea was absurd, and it is. The point of my argument you conveniently ignore is that Allah is visible. Allah is not a spook, a ghost, some type of phantom or apparition. I hope that point is now clear. Now for proof, you said you, "read the Qu'ran vigorously and objectively with no emotional attachment."
What can I say as proof that can compare to what the Qu'ran has already told you? If you didn't get the proof you were looking for in the Qu'ran then surely you will not get proof from a few lines from this web forum.


p.s. Tylenol disrupts the synaptic transfer to the nociceptors which results in numbing of the senses thus allowing you to accept more pain. Your headache was still there you just didn't feel it. Your spook just wanted you to take some drugs. You should know this Professor.

june181972
06-08-2006, 05:49 PM
It is against the first law of nature: "self preservation" not to hate. Just like the gazelle hates the cheetah and the little fish hate the shark. Like Wam. showed God hates, also Sod. + Gam. etc... That is why "love thy enemies" is a trick of the devil. Neither God nor beast loves their enemies, why should man? We would all be dead if God loved the devil or devilish things.

Klawful
06-09-2006, 07:35 AM
Im sorry that I have yet to read the quran but here are a couple of quotes from the Bible, that mention the witnessing of God/Allah.

in KJV, NLT and NIV for comparison ( King James Version, New Living Translation and New International Translation)

And if written documentation is not enough for any of you then why would you believe that the world is a rough spherical shape? why would you then believe that the moon reflects light from the sun? why would you then believe anything at all.

There is no possible way for you as a human being to personaly figure out and experience everything in life for yourself. That is why we have teachers and schools.
Passage Exodus 24:11: (KJV)
11And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
Passage Exodus 24:11: (NIV)
11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.
Exodus 24:11: (NLT)
1And though Israel's leaders saw God, he did not destroy them. In fact, they shared a meal together in God's presence!

Passage Genesis 32:30: (KJV)
30And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Passage Genesis 32:30: (NIV)
30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, [a (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Genesis+32:30&version=31#fen-NIV-959a)] saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.
Passage Genesis 32:30: (NLT)
30Jacob named the place Peniel--"face of God"--for he said, "I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been spared."

whitey
06-09-2006, 09:32 AM
Yea thats cool but I don't take the bible as literal truth. Lots of things in biblical times are just so far off base. How all these god sightings come when the bible was written, but none recently? There were also reports of seeing unicorns in those times but lets be serious.

snapple
06-09-2006, 10:04 AM
arguing about theology gets you places....oh wait...

and "whitey" it's a common mistake people make, the bible is a man-made book of philosophy, you're supposed to make connections to your life by reading it and not look at it as scientific fact and real historical evidece. but hey...

whitey
06-09-2006, 10:46 AM
^ Thats my point. Klawful was proposing that the mentionings of people seeing god or talking to him just because it was in the bible was fact.

Skellington
06-09-2006, 11:45 AM
I hate the entire Bible, is that ok?

whitey
06-09-2006, 12:04 PM
sho nuf.

Koolish
06-09-2006, 04:22 PM
Yea thats cool but I don't take the bible as literal truth. Lots of things in biblical times are just so far off base. How all these god sightings come when the bible was written, but none recently? There were also reports of seeing unicorns in those times but lets be serious. you've got a lot to learn about Judaism and Christianity my friend.

let's just say "The law and the prophets were until John."

whitey
06-09-2006, 05:37 PM
Teach.

Koolish
06-10-2006, 10:15 AM
The Old Testament was a time before Jesus when the Israelites went through their daily lives but in certain time periods there were prophets and holy men who interacted with God. (Which resulted in the books of the Old Testament).
Jesus came to fulfill the prophecies of the coming Messiah who would save all mankind from their sins, and when he came then all was fulfilled and all that is required of people is to believe in Jesus. There are no more prophets (John The Baptist was the last) as Jesus came and nothing more is needed than for man to believe in Jesus, that is our interaction with God through Jesus, prayer etc.
So why is there no more interaction with God such as described in the Old Testament? Jesus came and that was to fulfill everything. So all God wants of you is to accept Jesus.

I speak from the Christian perspective.

whitey
06-10-2006, 10:43 AM
Fair enough.

It just seems like an easy way out to me.

HotSauce
06-11-2006, 01:12 AM
The Old Testament was a time before Jesus when the Israelites went through their daily lives but in certain time periods there were prophets and holy men who interacted with God. (Which resulted in the books of the Old Testament).
Jesus came to fulfill the prophecies of the coming Messiah who would save all mankind from their sins, and when he came then all was fulfilled and all that is required of people is to believe in Jesus. There are no more prophets (John The Baptist was the last) as Jesus came and nothing more is needed than for man to believe in Jesus, that is our interaction with God through Jesus, prayer etc.
So why is there no more interaction with God such as described in the Old Testament? Jesus came and that was to fulfill everything. So all God wants of you is to accept Jesus.

With this being your view point do you view Islam as a false religon? Mohammed, according to the Quran, is a prophet of God. And if you do believe the Islam to be false what is your reason for believing so.

Koolish
06-11-2006, 10:12 AM
Hah, you think I haven't done my research on Islam.

I probably know more than you, when like half the people at your school are Muslim you eventually catch on, and I started my own personal research.

From what I gathered from a history textbook, Mohammed grew up in an area with a large Jewish and Christian population where he was obviously greatly influenced. I read that he himself did not write the Qu'Ran, but that his followers wrote down his teachings.

There are issues with Islam such as the whole issue of "Jesus can't be God's Son! God can't marry and have children!" when in Christianity Jesus isn't literally like the production of God, but Jesus was not created but begotten, True God from True God we Christians say, and in the New Testament when he said he was the Son of God the Pharisees were angered because this was to make him equal to God. I honestly need more understanding and research before I 100% understand the meaning of Son, I can grasp the concept but can't perfectly display it. However it doesn't mean son the way this society views it. This is my view on the issue, a lot of Muslims take it farther and claim people such as Paul (Saul) over-stressed or misinterpreted the divinity of Jesus.

Also, Jesus' life falls in line with Biblical prophecies (Psalm 22 vs. Matthew 27), but then Mohammed came around and oh it turns out the Bible was rewritten by corupt people (but some of it's still good). The Qu'Ran and Bible are completely different.

According to the Qu'Ran, what actually happened was that Judas (I think it was, well somebody) was made to look like Jesus and so he was crucified instead, and Jesus went up to heaven because God favored him. However, this is Mohammed's word versus Matthew, Mark, Luke and John's.

whitey
06-11-2006, 03:02 PM
Its all come from other humans intepretations which distorts it stuff anyways.

Klawful
06-13-2006, 04:16 AM
Part of what I was saying tho not to clearly was the fact that knowledge is subjective.

Most of what you know as right and wrong, existant and non-existant is in part to your own personal experience but majorly also what we are taught.
We are willing to take a scientists point of view becuase we assume that he has taken time to study what he is writting throughly and give an accurate point of view. and we also tend to assume that because someone spent a long time studying that they are better prepared to understand things.

But scientists don't all agree with eachother on most theories.

and If you are not going to believe something like the bible which is one of the most historically acurate documents that has survived from those times, then there is absolutely no way that you will believe in god from some one elses experience, and why should you?

you need to go out and experince god for yourself.

God is real wether or not any of you want to say its so or not.

you cant judge wether or not something is real solely on your experience, otherwise the sun is just a small circle in the sky that heats you up sometimes burns you. its not really as big scientists say it is.

Show me some documentation about a man that has actualy physicaly measured the distance the sun is around...you cant.


ill write more later as I feel the need to rant.

My First Timbs
06-13-2006, 01:41 PM
But scientists don't all agree with eachother on most theories.

thats blatant lie number 1


like the bible which is one of the most historically acurate documents that has survived from those times



blatant lie number 2

Show me some documentation about a man that has actualy physicaly measured the distance the sun is around...you cant.

the diameter of the sun and its mass, median temperature and surface and core properties are all indeed well understood and verifiable.

Wamukota X
06-15-2006, 07:00 AM
A u A

LORD NOSE
12-21-2009, 09:20 PM
up