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LHX
06-18-2006, 08:57 PM
http://users.tkk.fi/~renko/hag1.html (http://users.tkk.fi/%7Erenko/hag1.html)

Read this if you have not read it already.


Just a suggestion.




Maybe a threat as well.


Actually, yeah. It is a threat.


If you don't read it, you will be sorry.

Kephrem
06-18-2006, 10:27 PM
Peace LHX

According to what you have knowledged of them, were the Samurai in your opinion constituted within a moral order?


Good looking on the link.

LHX
06-18-2006, 10:38 PM
Yes.

A moral order rooted in an interpretation of Buddhism.


On a personal note:
As far as suggesting an approach to life, or a moral order, the Hagakure seems to be the most useful, direct, and practical guide that I have come across.

I am not a big fan of playing things up to make them bigger than what they are, but this book expresses some perspectives that I had never seen before or since, and deals with them in a respectful way.

What could easily be considered scandalous or controversial is presented in a very objective and matter-of-fact tone in this book.

PEACE

Kephrem
06-18-2006, 10:55 PM
Why do you think the Samurai have been given a bad rap at times? As far as brutality, blood lust, and immorality?

Kephrem
06-18-2006, 10:59 PM
Though I havn't read this book on the Religion of the Samurai it looks to be quite interesting.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/rosa/index.htm

Just adding on, Peace.

WARPATH
06-19-2006, 06:37 PM
Why do you think the Samurai have been given a bad rap at times? As far as brutality, blood lust, and immorality?

In the social structure of Japan during the time of the samurai, some warriors would use their status as an exscuse to kill peasants for minor infractions. For example........a simple misunderstanding or a dirty look could mean the loss of your head. Basically if a samurai felt disrespected he could take your life.

SubtleEnergies
06-20-2006, 10:07 PM
Yeah ^ Not all Samurai upheld the ideals of Bushido. Especially later as Japan stabilized the warrior class was less vital. This resulted in alot of Ronin (Samurai without masters) and then a lot become just basically gangs. I believe some current Yakuza even trace from these roots.

At the time it was written the way of the warrior was diminishing. Hagakure means something like "hidden by leaves," and I read this refers to the Way at the time - it was obscured.



As far as spirituality Buddhism and Zen in particular heavily influenced the swordsmen. The teachings of living IN THE MOMENT and EMPTINESS were extremely useful in a life or death situation. And conversely life or death situations also bring these teachings home to the individual, making them more than mere intellectualisation. However, they were not strictly buddhists they were Samurai. Bushido was their code. In the Hagakure it says one should want to be reborn as a retainer for their clan 7 times if they are reborn 7 times. This shows the single mindedness of their way.

One of the first lines of the book sums it up "The way of the Samurai lies in death."

I loved this book. Another great book is Musashi a novel by Eiji Yoshikawa.

chiba
06-25-2006, 01:00 AM
Another great book is Musashi a novel by Eiji Yoshikawa
i heard theres 7 volumes
i heard this book is hard to find

SubtleEnergies
06-25-2006, 10:38 PM
Shouldn't be hard to find it is in my local library even, also the most common bookshops tend to stock it...
It is one book, although it is like 1100 pages. I think there were like 10 videos made out of it...but far as I know only one book.

Muslimah
06-26-2006, 03:49 AM
Well it is 7 books Subtle Energies, just in one volume. Though we have a copy where all 7 are together, maybe the different sections are sold separate in alternate editions?

I have also come across it in many bookstores. If you canít find it in a local bookstore, just buy it online.

noel411
06-26-2006, 03:58 AM
Excellent knowledge drop, Muslimah. I can see you've been knowledging knowledge.

Muslimah
06-26-2006, 04:17 AM
lmao, do i ever say anything that is not true genius?

I be droppin knowledge everywhere i go haha

;)

noel411
06-26-2006, 04:46 AM
Word Sun. Keep the knowledge flowing. Remember, without knowledge there is no knowledge...Knowledge that.

One

SubtleEnergies
06-28-2006, 06:39 AM
Wow Muslimah...you do drop knowledge! How did you ever hear of this great book? :P

Hehe I didn't realize it was in 7 books....I actually thought it was 5 afterthe book of five rings since it was named after elements. Still I thought these were just divisions in the book.....maybe it was sold seperately...but I always heard of it as a novel.

Muslimah
06-28-2006, 06:46 AM
lmao, yeah i wonder.

I do believe that one of the more recent Japanese editions was sold in 4 volumes if my memory serves me correctly. But i think it was apart of a collection of works by yoshikawa. I think it was mentioned in the forward of the edition I have.

I'm not too sure about the original edition though and at this moment can't be bothered consulting the book.

LHX
06-28-2006, 08:53 AM
is anybody going to give us a summary of this Musashi joint and how it is similar/different from the Hagakure?

in a 'keeping this thread pertinent' type of way...

LHX
06-28-2006, 08:59 AM
A Little Taste:

From the 7th Chapter:
It is said that every time Oki Hyobu's group gathered and after all their affairs were finished he would say, "Young men should discipline themselves rigorously in intention and courage. This will be accomplished if only courage is fixed in one's heart. If one's sword is broken, he will strike with his hands. If his hands are cut off, he will press the enemy down with his shoulders. If his shoulders are cut away, he will bite through ten or fifteen enemy necks with his teeth. Courage is such a thing."

From the 9th Chapter:
A man by the name of Takagi got into an argument with three farmers in the neighborhood, was soundly beaten out in the fields, and returned home. His wife said to him, "Haven't you forgotten about the matter of death?" "Definitely not!" he replied.
His wife then retorted, "At any rate, a man dies only once. Of the various ways of dying -dying of disease, being cut down in battle, seppuku or being beheaded--to die ignominiously would be a shame," and went outside. She soon returned, carefully put the two children to bed, prepared some torches, dressed herself for battle after nightfall, and then said, "When I went out to survey the scene a bit earlier, it seemed that the three men went into one place for a discussion. Now is the right time. Let's go quickly!" So saying, they went out with the husband in the lead, burning torches and wearing short swords. They broke into their opponents' place and dispersed them, both husband and wife slashing about and killing two of the men and wounding the other. The husband was later ordered to commit seppuku.

LHX
06-28-2006, 09:12 AM
Why do you think the Samurai have been given a bad rap at times? As far as brutality, blood lust, and immorality?

damn, I didn't even see this question


perhaps it can be said that any discipline which has adherents that take an objective look at existence will be prone to handling situations brutally

as far as immorality goes, it might be hard to get people trained to keep their minds on death to follow certain social rules and etiquettes


from what I have read, I haven't seen too many instances of blood lust - killing for killing sake

(although - i can imagine instances of that occurring within that environment - tho i don't think it would be looked upon very honorably)

Frontal Lobotomy
06-28-2006, 10:30 AM
I've been meaning to read this book for time, nice one for uppping it LHX

UNCLE RUCKUS
06-28-2006, 06:29 PM
Yeh props LHX, Used to have this after Ghostdog came out; great book!

SubtleEnergies
07-03-2006, 12:05 AM
Musashi is a novel. It is based on Musashi's journal interwoven with fiction.

It is all about his struggle to find enlightenment in the way of the warrior.

LHX
07-04-2006, 07:12 PM
bumped

for Kephrem

LHX
07-06-2006, 11:27 PM
bumped

because you still might get your ass kicked

Kephrem
07-07-2006, 01:13 AM
perhaps it can be said that any discipline which has adherents that take an objective look at existence will be prone to handling situations brutally


I'm feeling this theory, but how would this fit, let's say, the ancient Buddhists? Is this where their highly developed martial sciences would come into play?


as far as immorality goes, it might be hard to get people trained to keep their minds on death to follow certain social rules and etiquettes

The question was more to alleged deviancy, but there seems to be a general lack of information on the subject.


from what I have read, I haven't seen too many instances of blood lust - killing for killing sake

(although - i can imagine instances of that occurring within that environment - tho i don't think it would be looked upon very honorably)

Point(s) taken.

sncere
07-08-2006, 01:15 PM
major propz on uppin this book.
i been trying to get this from the library.

LHX
07-09-2006, 02:11 PM
another selection

Men who did well at the time of their death were men of real bravery. There are many examples of such. But people who talk in an accomplished fashion every day yet are agitated at the time of their death can be known not to have true bravery .

LHX
07-09-2006, 02:26 PM
The question was more to alleged deviancy, but there seems to be a general lack of information on the subject.

PEACE Kephrem - here is another selection you might find interesting...
From the 8th Chapter
Yamamoto Jin'emon always said to his retainers, "Go ahead and gamble and lie. A person who will not tell you seven lies within a hundred yards is useless as a man. " Long ago people spoke in this fashion because they were only concerned with a man's attitude towards military matters and considered that a man who was "correct" would never do great works. They also ignored the misconduct of men and dismissed such matters by saying, "They do good works, too...''
Men like Sagara Kyoma also excused retainers who had committed theft and adultery and trained them gradually. He said, "If it weren't for such persons, we would have no useful men at all."

Os3y3ris
07-11-2006, 12:59 AM
LOL Keph, at least they aren't the Hwaerang (sp?), no?

shaolinsword
11-16-2006, 04:57 PM
I've gotta buy this book, They quotes from it LHX?

LHX
11-16-2006, 05:45 PM
yes

buy it

not only is it useful, but its entertaining

shaolinsword
11-17-2006, 03:17 AM
yeah I noticed that when reading the link you posted when you made the thread. I think I'm in the process of buying it but it's by some bloke called michael thomas?

LHX
11-17-2006, 07:31 AM
The original author (or person whose teachings it is based on) is Yamamoto Tsunetomo

The translation I have is by William Scott Wilson

It looks like this:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hagakure-Book-Samurai-Yamamoto-Tsunetomo/dp/4770011067/ref=cm_lm_fullview_prod_1/026-0982662-8596439

shaolinsword
11-17-2006, 08:09 AM
hah that's the one I'm after. Cheers. Now I just gotta tell the bloke on eBay I don't want his version

pml have you read the readers review on the amazon site? 'The Book of the Samurai' is fairly cheesy, and riding on the back of Tom's 'Last Samurai' was it just me or was this book written hundreds of years ago?

LHX
11-17-2006, 08:37 AM
hah that's the one I'm after. Cheers. Now I just gotta tell the bloke on eBay I don't want his version

pml have you read the readers review on the amazon site? was it just me or was this book written hundreds of years ago?
lmao

Tsunetomo was alive in the year 1700 if memory serves correct

according to wikipedia, the passages in Hagakure were compiled from 1709 to 1716


people living with their heads up their asses might find it cheesy

actually no - thats biased of me


read it for yourself


if you are interested in existentialism and are willing to confront death
-- or if you are just becoming a all-around hard core muthafucka --
then odds are you will find some value in this book



it has come in handy on numerous occasions
and even after reading a bunch of other books and bibles from various belief systems, this is the only one I keep coming back to

shaolinsword
11-17-2006, 12:59 PM
it seems like something I'll read over and over going by the quotes in the ghost dog film

Urban_Journalz
11-18-2006, 11:02 AM
"Moving Heaven and Earth with minimal effort is just a matter of concentration"

Yo, again, DEFINATELY one of the ILLEST books ever written. It's principles can be used by anyone willing to put forth effort. Honestly, Taoism and Bushido make me a better and more aware person as a whole, because the principles found therein remind me of my own way of life. Only in different words.

Though there were definately some renegade Samurai, the majority seem to have thought exactly like Yamamoto Tsunetomo.

I've heard many stories that the Yakuza's roots are traced from the Ronin of post-feudal Japan who wished to keep these codes preserved. Though they thrive on crime, that's probably one of the only organizations, outside of the Sicilian Mafia, that believes in honor among thieves. You gotta respect that.

My dog chewed my last copy to smitherines, but I definately intend to buy another one in the near future.

Dope thread LHX.

Peace

tajeco
11-18-2006, 02:06 PM
"Ghost Dog:The Way Of the Samurai" is pretty much based on the book. Forest Whittaker reads sections of the book throughout the movie, RZA included them on the soundtrack. I'm sure most of you know this, but maybe not all of you.

ElusiveFugitive
11-19-2006, 08:34 PM
"A certain swordsman in his declining years said the following:In one's life. there are levels in the pursuit of study. In the lowest level, a person studies but nothing comes of it, and he feels that both he and others are unskillful. At this point he is worthless. In the middle level he is still useless but is aware of his own insufficiencies and can also see the insufficiencies of others. In a higher level he has pride concerning his own ability, rejoices in praise from others, and laments the lack of ability in his fellows. This man has worth. In the highest level a man has the look of knowing nothing. These are the levels in general;. But there is one transcending level, and this is the most excellent of all. This person is aware of the endlessness of entering deeply into a certain Way and never thinks of himself as having finished. He truly knows his own insufficiencies and never in his whole life thinks that he has succeeded. He has no thoughts of pride but with self-abasement knows the Way to the end. It is said that Master Yagyu once remarked, "I do not know the way to defeat others, but the way to defeat myself. ''Throughout your life advance daily, becoming more skillful than yesterday, more skillful than today. This is never-ending".

ElusiveFugitive
11-19-2006, 08:38 PM
"The way of revenge lies in simply forcing one's way into a place and being cut down. There is no shame in this. By thinking that you must complete the job you will run out of time. By considering things like how many men the enemy has, time piles up; in the end you will give up. No matter if the enemy has thousands of men, there is fulfillment in simply standing them off and being determined to cut them all down, starting from one end. You will finish the greater part of it."

LHX
11-19-2006, 09:26 PM
"The way of revenge lies in simply forcing one's way into a place and being cut down. There is no shame in this. By thinking that you must complete the job you will run out of time. By considering things like how many men the enemy has, time piles up; in the end you will give up. No matter if the enemy has thousands of men, there is fulfillment in simply standing them off and being determined to cut them all down, starting from one end. You will finish the greater part of it."
classic

ElusiveFugitive
11-21-2006, 10:42 PM
"In the Kiyogunkan one person said, "When facing the enemy, I feel as if I have just entered darkness. Because of this I get heavily wounded. Although you have fought with many famous men, you have never been wounded. Why is that?"The other man answered, "When I have faced the enemy, of course it is like being in the dark. But if at that time I tranquilize my mind, it becomes like a night lit by a pale moon. If I begin my attack from that point, I feel as though I will not be wounded. " This is the situation at the moment of truth."

LHX
11-21-2006, 10:49 PM
all the lessons in that book can be applied to daily life

intense

ElusiveFugitive
11-23-2006, 10:19 PM
The priest Tannen used to say in his daily talks that : A monk cannot fulfill the Buddhist Way if he does not manifest compassion without and persistently store up courage within. And if a warrior does not manifest courage on the outside and hold enough compassion within his heart to burst his chest, he cannot become a retainer. Therefore, the monk pursues courage with the warrior as his model, and the warrior pursues the compassion of the monk.I traveled about for many years and met men of wisdom but never found the means to the pursuit of knowledge. Therefore, whenever I heard of a man of courage in one place or another, I would go and look for him regardless of the hardships on the way. I have learned clearly that these stories of the Way of the Samurai have been an aid on the road to Buddhism. Now a warrior with his armor will rush into the enemy camp, making that armor his strength. Do you suppose that a monk with a single rosary can dash into the midst of spears and long swords, armed with only meekness and compassion? If he does not have great courage, he will do no dashing at all. As proof of this, the priest offering the incense at a great Buddhist memorial service may tremble, and this is because he has no courage.Things like kicking a man back from the dead, or pulling all living creatures out of hell, are all matters of courage. Nevertheless, monks of recent times all entertain false ideas and desire to become laudably gentle ; there are none who complete the Way. Furthermore, among warriors there are some cowards who advance Buddhism. These are regrettable matters. It is a great mistake for a young samurai to learn about Buddhism. The reason is that he will see things in two ways. A person who does not set himself in just one direction will be of no value at all. It is fine for retired old men to learn about Buddhism as a diversion, but if a warrior makes loyalty and filial piety one load, and courage and compassion another, and carries these twenty-four hours a day until his shoulders wear out, he will be a samurai.

ElusiveFugitive
11-23-2006, 10:21 PM
^ word LHX, Hagakure is dope. I've been reading it for about 5 years. I suggest if you like this book to check out; the unfettered mind and the life-giving sword. You've probably read the Art of War & The Gorin no sho (book of 5 rings). I've briefly looked at that book Musashi, though it is mainly fiction/folklore...