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INF
08-21-2006, 12:18 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hoW5kZVk9w

In this thread there will be discussion after the video is viewed and then there will be clips of real anarchy. Is it called for and what is it really. Useless violence or key element for revolutionary change?

arto
08-21-2006, 02:32 PM
that girl is hot

Visionz
08-21-2006, 02:49 PM
Can't watch it here at work. But anarchy won't work until the people are ready for it. I personally don't think we're at that point.

LHX
08-21-2006, 03:04 PM
only X more days to go

The Wizzard
08-21-2006, 03:07 PM
This bitch is dumb - she's just reading shit on the internet, her info is correct but I can't listen to her whine and cry... But yeah, Eric said it.

The Wizzard
08-21-2006, 03:07 PM
only X more days to go

till what?

Aqua Luna
08-21-2006, 03:10 PM
Anarchy hasn't prevailed because of violence, as stated in the video...but, there would be no cause for anarchy if it wasn't for the violence of the authorities.

The authorities rule by devilshment, the authorities must be overthrown by righteousness.

INF
08-21-2006, 03:11 PM
She did whine alot but she brought up a valid point about Anarchy not being necessarily ruthless chaos.

A couple more comments and a blunt and I'll be back with some new video.

The Wizzard
08-21-2006, 03:14 PM
her points were fine, just that she ain't a good spokespeson for Anarchy, especially her jabber at the end of the video, wtf was that?

Aqua Luna
08-21-2006, 03:24 PM
her points were fine, just that she ain't a good spokespeson for Anarchy, especially her jabber at the end of the video, wtf was that?

WTF? is right!....how are you gonna sit and judge this person by saying that she is not a good "spokesperson". Like you said, her points were FINE.

Stop tryna judge people and learn how to understand knowledge.

Visionz
08-21-2006, 03:30 PM
so Aqua do you think all the killing would just stop if the cops and the goverments dissappeared?

Aqua Luna
08-21-2006, 03:38 PM
so Aqua do you think all the killing would just stop if the cops and the goverments dissappeared?

Peace Eric...

Hell naw! Peoples need to understand how to govern themselves....that is why I was moved by this video.

The girl in it recognized that anarchy wasn't about overthrowing the authorities in favor of chaos and unlawfulness. She realized that it was about overthrowing the authorities because of the authorities own chaos and unlawfulness.

We can only do this by us governing ourselves by the laws of righteousness and order. These are laws that must be understood, not forced like the authorities force their laws upon us.
Peace

Punch
08-21-2006, 03:44 PM
As a society we are nowhere near ready for anarchy. It's not just the authorities, I don't trust the general public enough to govern themselves.

INF
08-21-2006, 03:50 PM
her points were fine, just that she ain't a good spokespeson for Anarchy, especially her jabber at the end of the video, wtf was that?


Honestly, After she quoted the second site that she had up, I turned it off. I felt that she made a clear point for where I wanna go with this thread.

When I was young I heard about a day over in europe where they have total anarchy go down. I'm talkin punks everywhere breakin everything. I seen a clip of it on the news years after I had heard about it and it was pretty crazy. If they dont do it once a year then its on some every couple of years tip but I think it's called anarchy day. I'm starting to think that it's something else now though cuz I'm looking for video of it and can't find it. Anybody heard of this?

Visionz
08-21-2006, 03:50 PM
Peace Eric...

Hell naw! Peoples need to understand how to govern themselves....that is why I was moved by this video.

The girl in it recognized that anarchy wasn't about overthrowing the authorities in favor of chaos and unlawfulness. She realized that it was about overthrowing the authorities because of the authorities own chaos and unlawfulness.

We can only do this by us governing ourselves by the laws of righteousness and order. These are laws that must be understood, not forced like the authorities force their laws upon us.
PeacePeace Aqua, I hear what you're saying. It is our lack of righteousness that gives them the excuse for us to be governed. If people always walked a righteous path what would be the need for the cops? I'm assuming there wouldn't be one. I guess the question would be how do you get everyone to walk that path. It'd take many a generation w/ our current methods.

whitey
08-21-2006, 04:22 PM
its not possible in a system where people can gain more wealth than another person. human emotions start to come in and what not and it fucks the shit up.

The Wizzard
08-21-2006, 04:38 PM
WTF? is right!....how are you gonna sit and judge this person by saying that she is not a good "spokesperson". Like you said, her points were FINE.

Stop tryna judge people and learn how to understand knowledge.

My thought on arachy don't matter cause to me anarchy is right now a pipedream, but on the movie her points where fine. I just wanted to comment on the fact that she was annoying. I'm human I got the right to judge whoever i want. I watched her video and listend to her speak, doesn't that give me the right to comment on it, not only the material but the whole thing. Now you gotta a problem with that?

LHX
08-21-2006, 08:32 PM
changes happen once things are exhausted

when you wind up in bed with a fever feeling like you are dead, its not because you chose to be exhausted

its because you were moving consistently in the wrong direction until your body was exhausted and you could no longer keep moving in that direction


it is the same way for this society that we are a part of

it is moving in the wrong direction, but it still has enough energy and momentum to keep itself going


but
it is getting exhausted

this planet is getting exhausted
ALL of the resources - people included

when it IS exhausted, we will know it
anarchy is only one of the 4 horses

you cannot discuss anarchy without discussing pollution, a warming planet, war, disease, robots etc etc etc


eventually this society will not have the strength to get out of bed in the morning and show up to work

The Wizzard
08-22-2006, 02:35 AM
^But the question we need to ask ourselves is are we willing to help save the planet (and i know "save the planet" sounds really gay but it's true, we need to get together for real and not like that hands across america bullshit)

LHX
08-22-2006, 08:12 AM
^But the question we need to ask ourselves is are we willing to help save the planet (and i know "save the planet" sounds really gay but it's true, we need to get together for real and not like that hands across america bullshit)

Maybe the question we need to ask is 'are we the planet?'

Literally.

We are physically composed of the same elements the planet is made up of.

(You are what you eat).

And if we are the planet, then isn't it a matter of saving ourselves?

If people learn how to save themselves, then the planet will reflect that as well.


Like I said before - people come together when the situation is bad enough.

The situation is bad and getting worse, but it's not bad enough yet.

Every moment you spend NOT being a consumer and NOT watching TV and NOT producing the way society wants you to, it is a direct attack against society.

The only problem is, it doesn't give you that feel-good-rush-of-adrenaline when you take action like breaking things or yelling at people.

I say we already are coming together, but we arent dumb enough to be fooled into thinking that throwing rocks at riot cops is a way to get anything done.

The Wizzard
08-22-2006, 12:11 PM
Maybe the question we need to ask is 'are we the planet?'

Literally.

We are physically composed of the same elements the planet is made up of.

(You are what you eat).

And if we are the planet, then isn't it a matter of saving ourselves?

If people learn how to save themselves, then the planet will reflect that as well.


Like I said before - people come together when the situation is bad enough.

The situation is bad and getting worse, but it's not bad enough yet.

Every moment you spend NOT being a consumer and NOT watching TV and NOT producing the way society wants you to, it is a direct attack against society.

The only problem is, it doesn't give you that feel-good-rush-of-adrenaline when you take action like breaking things or yelling at people.

I say we already are coming together, but we arent dumb enough to be fooled into thinking that throwing rocks at riot cops is a way to get anything done.

At first I read this and thought I was fuckin dumb, we are the earth, sounds like bullshit to me. Than I sat and thought about and fuck yeah, we are the earth and into to help better ourselves and better society we have to start with ourselves. damn.

Visionz
08-22-2006, 01:12 PM
^It always starts at home. You gotta take care of ya own first and then move on from there.

LHX
08-22-2006, 01:14 PM
At first I read this and thought I was fuckin dumb, we are the earth, sounds like bullshit to me. Than I sat and thought about and fuck yeah, we are the earth and into to help better ourselves and better society we have to start with ourselves. damn.
yeah i know what you mean

the whole 'we are the earth' point of view has been abused by all these utopian-hippie-bliss-ninny groups that make it seem like we should all hold hands and look at fluffy clouds and shit

but
the fact of the matter is, we are literally the earth - and if you want to extend it - we are the universe too

what else could we be made out of?


every time we eat bad and stick with our bad habits, we are killing ourselves and the planet at the same time

its a logical argument

doesnt take too much to make the connection



but yet it still goes widely unacknowledged

The Wizzard
08-23-2006, 02:42 AM
there is the same amount of matter in this world as there was when this world started, and with that in mind that shit really starts making sense, man maby it's just cause i'm higher than that lion in your sig but damn, my mind has been fucked royaly, good lookin LHX

Aqua Luna
08-23-2006, 03:33 AM
Peace Aqua, I hear what you're saying. It is our lack of righteousness that gives them the excuse for us to be governed. If people always walked a righteous path what would be the need for the cops? I'm assuming there wouldn't be one. I guess the question would be how do you get everyone to walk that path. It'd take many a generation w/ our current methods.

peace

LHX
08-23-2006, 04:31 PM
there is the same amount of matter in this world as there was when this world started, and with that in mind that shit really starts making sense, man maby it's just cause i'm higher than that lion in your sig but damn, my mind has been fucked royaly, good lookin LHX
an intense understanding to come to

Peace Wizzard

zeppelin2k
08-23-2006, 04:38 PM
the system of government and constitution of the USA waas built upon the philosophies of John Locke

with these Lockean principles the founding fathers made the constitution, and Locke himself said once the government stopped working FOR the people a revolution was REQUIRED and it is the RIGHT of the people to overthrow the government

he said the government should be scared of the people, not the other way around

these days though, the constitution isn't followed at all and is pretty much disregarded, and not only that but people these days would call revolutionists terrorist bc they are SO brainwashed

the people who run the country are following more machiavellian and hobbesian principles, which pretty much say the people have to do what the government says and the government can do whatever they want, more machiavelli than hobbes

anarchy isnt really required, revolution is required

LHX
08-23-2006, 04:47 PM
people cant overthrow the government anymore because the government somehow took control of all the food

zeppelin2k
08-23-2006, 07:32 PM
people cant overthrow the government anymore because the government somehow took control of all the food

the food?

so much more than that man, they control most people's minds through the media

as for a revolution, hell yeah one is still possible, 49% of voting america didnt want bush in office, get another million man march to walk up to the white house and take control, thats all you need

if the military massacres its own people how much longer you think the rest of the people will have faith in their government?

and to stop that, just get some generals to join the revolution so even the military heads are on board, bc there are probably enough of them who hate the gov't too

LHX
08-23-2006, 07:55 PM
the food?

so much more than that man, they control most people's minds through the media

as for a revolution, hell yeah one is still possible, 49% of voting america didnt want bush in office, get another million man march to walk up to the white house and take control, thats all you need


and then what?

let another bunch of folks fool people into thinking that they know how to run things?

naw

lava seems to be the only thing that can clean this shit up



when lava melts a city, the region becomes fertile

maestro wooz
08-23-2006, 10:18 PM
anarchy would never work because we are humans, not robots. Violence is a natural reaction, siezing power is a natural instinct. The strong always get stronger until theyre too strong for the weak. Government is neccessary, we can only hope the government doesnt fuck us.

LHX
08-23-2006, 10:24 PM
anarchy would never work because we are humans, not robots. Violence is a natural reaction, siezing power is a natural instinct. The strong always get stronger until theyre too strong for the weak. Government is neccessary, we can only hope the government doesnt fuck us.
violence is a natural reaction when people feel like they have no other choice

government works when people get the chance to govern themselves


is it possible for another person to know whats best for you?
is that a healthy lifestyle?

maestro wooz
08-23-2006, 10:47 PM
violence is a natural reaction when people feel like they have no other choice

government works when people get the chance to govern themselves

maybe, but as long as we have emotions theres gonna be times when people feel as if they have no other choice, sometimes the only deterrent is the law.


is it possible for another person to know whats best for you?
is that a healthy lifestyle?


yes and not always.

Example: Inner city youth(black kid) i know right, hasnt heard of his father in 15 years or so and his mother was the target of a succesful drug related drive-by(Bodymore standup) when he was 7 or 8. Grandmother takes him in, sends him to private middle school, he gets in to private high school, gets scholarship to college, and hes interning in st louis right now. Grandma knew what was best for him and she made the right choice. People arent perfect and dont make the right choice all the time, but someone making the right hard choice for you can save the shit out of you. Its just gotta be the right person making the right choices.

*looks for poli sci notebook to throw big names and words around*

zeppelin2k
08-24-2006, 09:16 AM
violence is a natural reaction when people feel like they have no other choice

government works when people get the chance to govern themselves


is it possible for another person to know whats best for you?
is that a healthy lifestyle?
okay LHX about your comment on how the same shit would happen, thats not true, not if a system like's Locke's is ACTUALLY followed

his system realized we needed government in order to protect ourselves from people who were going against the state of nature (he believes the state of nature is the best bc no government but nothing to keep people from killing others if they do something wrong towards them or their property)

so he said we need a government created by the people and run by the people, where the leg made laws, exec executed them, and people all abided by them and had a say in making them

maybe there will never be a good system, there can never be a universally perfect one, but a revolution would sure as hell make a better one than now

LHX
08-24-2006, 12:10 PM
okay LHX about your comment on how the same shit would happen, thats not true, not if a system like's Locke's is ACTUALLY followed

his system realized we needed government in order to protect ourselves from people who were going against the state of nature (he believes the state of nature is the best bc no government but nothing to keep people from killing others if they do something wrong towards them or their property)


see, the problem with that point of view is that when it comes to this notion of 'no laws' and 'killing', everybody seems to portray 'killers' as these supernatural beings

some sort of killing machine

i guess there is a bias in the mind in general because it deals with death

bottom line is, killers have to eat, shit, sleep, etc just like anybody else

and i guarantee that after a little while, when there is no more ammo or everybody has the same weapons, there would not be very much killing going on

most people who are insane psychopathic killers have become so BECAUSE OF this society

if this society isnt in place any more, all of a sudden people arent under pressure and dont kill

if you get rid of the notion of 'property', and people understand that there is more than enough to go around many times over, what motive does anybody have to kill?


government seems necessary because the real problem is deeper than that

i dont need anybody to tell me when i am hungry, when i am full, when i need to shit, and when im tired

all i need is people to stop telling me when and where i am 'allowed' to do things

i have never broken a law of physics

'government' is disrespectful to nature

zeppelin2k
08-25-2006, 11:57 AM
see, the problem with that point of view is that when it comes to this notion of 'no laws' and 'killing', everybody seems to portray 'killers' as these supernatural beings

some sort of killing machine

i guess there is a bias in the mind in general because it deals with death

bottom line is, killers have to eat, shit, sleep, etc just like anybody else

and i guarantee that after a little while, when there is no more ammo or everybody has the same weapons, there would not be very much killing going on

most people who are insane psychopathic killers have become so BECAUSE OF this society

if this society isnt in place any more, all of a sudden people arent under pressure and dont kill

if you get rid of the notion of 'property', and people understand that there is more than enough to go around many times over, what motive does anybody have to kill?


government seems necessary because the real problem is deeper than that

i dont need anybody to tell me when i am hungry, when i am full, when i need to shit, and when im tired

all i need is people to stop telling me when and where i am 'allowed' to do things

i have never broken a law of physics

'government' is disrespectful to nature

there is some contradiction and whackness in what you say

it is true that the state of nature is the perfect state (according to locke, but according to hobbes nature is a constant state of war)

your notion of property is whack though, there will be property with or without government

the reason government is created in a lockean view is in order to PROTECT PROPERTY and for SECURITY of the person so people DONT go around killing or stealing, since there is an executive

government is not disrespectful to nature, government in its purest and most uncorrupted form is supposed to uphold nature and provide security which nature cannot provide, killing wont ever stop within nature or government, but within a true democratic government it can be curtailed

I disagree with today's government but thats bc it is basically a dictatorship across the board, true democracy has never been practiced, bc everyone who leads ends up being corrupt, which is why everyone needs to lead together, with a government for the people built of the people

LHX
08-25-2006, 01:56 PM
there is some contradiction and whackness in what you say

it is true that the state of nature is the perfect state (according to locke, but according to hobbes nature is a constant state of war)

your notion of property is whack though, there will be property with or without government

the reason government is created in a lockean view is in order to PROTECT PROPERTY and for SECURITY of the person so people DONT go around killing or stealing, since there is an executive

government is not disrespectful to nature, government in its purest and most uncorrupted form is supposed to uphold nature and provide security which nature cannot provide, killing wont ever stop within nature or government, but within a true democratic government it can be curtailed

I disagree with today's government but thats bc it is basically a dictatorship across the board, true democracy has never been practiced, bc everyone who leads ends up being corrupt, which is why everyone needs to lead together, with a government for the people built of the people

what is property?

also:
anytime somebody depends on somebody else to 'govern', there is a problem

democracy may be the best form of government
but government in itself is flawed


also - please to be providing which of Hobbes' work you are referencing

zeppelin2k
08-25-2006, 02:15 PM
what is property?

also:
anytime somebody depends on somebody else to 'govern', there is a problem

democracy may be the best form of government
but government in itself is flawed


also - please to be providing which of Hobbes' work you are referencing

there IS a problem when you rely on someone to govern THAT is right, but when everyone is part of the governing it eliminates that problem

government is flawed bc only one standard type of government has really ever been tried

the Hobbes work I am talking about is LEVIATHAN, the Locke work I am talking about is 2ND TREATISE ON GOVERNMENT

hidden ninja
08-25-2006, 05:44 PM
there is some contradiction and whackness in what you say

it is true that the state of nature is the perfect state (according to locke, but according to hobbes nature is a constant state of war)

your notion of property is whack though, there will be property with or without government

the reason government is created in a lockean view is in order to PROTECT PROPERTY and for SECURITY of the person so people DONT go around killing or stealing, since there is an executive

government is not disrespectful to nature, government in its purest and most uncorrupted form is supposed to uphold nature and provide security which nature cannot provide, killing wont ever stop within nature or government, but within a true democratic government it can be curtailed

I disagree with today's government but thats bc it is basically a dictatorship across the board, true democracy has never been practiced, bc everyone who leads ends up being corrupt, which is why everyone needs to lead together, with a government for the people built of the peopleif governments will only become corrupt over time, then why continue to establish new governments? what makes you think that if we were to establish a new governing body it would work this time?

LHX
08-25-2006, 09:20 PM
there IS a problem when you rely on someone to govern THAT is right, but when everyone is part of the governing it eliminates that problem

I will concede that point.

Actually, I like the way you put that.


government is flawed bc only one standard type of government has really ever been tried

i will disagree with you there and say that there is only one prominent type of government that we have experience being subjected to

by your rationale, i will agree with you and say yes, THIS type of government that we experience IS flawed

I am beginning to understand the implications of 'revolution' as you seem to be defining it

it does not seem to be the typical 'overthrow' that most people are hollering about


the Hobbes work I am talking about is LEVIATHAN, the Locke work I am talking about is 2ND TREATISE ON GOVERNMENT

i love some of Hobbes shit, but Leviathan just didnt pull me in.

Maybe I will give it a second look

LHX
08-25-2006, 09:21 PM
if governments will only become corrupt over time, then why continue to establish new governments? what makes you think that if we were to establish a new governing body it would work this time?

I think zep is referring to the One True Government™ - the one that isnt bad

i may be mistaken

zeppelin2k
08-28-2006, 12:32 PM
when I say we have only had one type of government before, I mean we have only ever had one rich group controlling the people ever, except for maybe the old tribes but back then there was no security

I am saying with a revolution, a new gov't needs to be started like the one in Locke's work, and everyone needs to be allowed the means to own property