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zeppelin2k
12-18-2006, 12:16 PM
do any of you believe that oil comes from dead animals of the past?
bc for me thats kind of hard to believe, bc I am sure in a year we use enough fuel to cover the world with at least an inch of oil, and in all the years that we have used fuel, there is no way that many fossils turned into oil, ontop of that, they find oil in large cavities in the earth so does that mean dinosaurs all went to the same place to die

it doesnt really add up for me

thoughts

Ghost In The 'Lac
12-18-2006, 01:18 PM
hahaha

My First Timbs
12-18-2006, 04:21 PM
do any of you believe that oil comes from dead animals of the past?
bc for me thats kind of hard to believe, bc I am sure in a year we use enough fuel to cover the world with at least an inch of oil, and in all the years that we have used fuel, there is no way that many fossils turned into oil, ontop of that, they find oil in large cavities in the earth so does that mean dinosaurs all went to the same place to die

it doesnt really add up for me

thoughts

fossil fuels do indeed exist and we benefit from them daily. the fossil fuels u use today are left over from millions of years ago.

for more information, please familiarize yourself with:

1) the kreb cycle

2) carbon fixation

3) geology

4) paleogeology

Sexy Jasper
12-18-2006, 04:53 PM
Fossil fuels?

LHX
12-18-2006, 04:58 PM
only in a society on the brink of collapse would it come across as something news-worthy and fascinating when somebody mentions that when you use something, the stock that you drew it from needs to replenish

whoa earth-shattering

if i dont let the well fill up, it will eventually run out


stop the press

zeppelin2k
12-18-2006, 05:29 PM
fossil fuels do indeed exist and we benefit from them daily. the fossil fuels u use today are left over from millions of years ago.

for more information, please familiarize yourself with:

1) the kreb cycle

2) carbon fixation

3) geology

4) paleogeology

lol nah man, I didnt say fossil fuels dont exist, I know all that stuff that you just posted, and the theory about it all

but if they have been producing for all these millions of years, it seems that either they will never run out, or there may be another way that they are developed

maybe there is something further that I havent read, but nature is very self-sustaining, in nature you rarely just find carcasses or things that are unused or unliving, I read somewhere once that the remains of a bear have never been found naturally bc once a bear dies its body is eaten right away

so lets say that everything on the earth died at some point, that doesnt seem like it would be able to produce the 22 million barrels of oil that the USA alone uses

maybe it has something to do with trees massively going underground and fossilizing, it just doesnt seem like fossils create our fuel, we find fuel in places where no living creatures have ever lived

if I am completely off, someone explain, otherwise this doesnt make sense

and if this IS true, then we should be fine for fuel, or at least have plenty of years to develop a good replacement, bc if fossil fuel thoery is right, then there should be fuel being made all the time by the earth, even if it is little by little

just a note, fossil fuels is just a theory

whitey
12-18-2006, 07:24 PM
lol nah man, I didnt say fossil fuels dont exist, I know all that stuff that you just posted, and the theory about it all

but if they have been producing for all these millions of years, it seems that either they will never run out, or there may be another way that they are developed

maybe there is something further that I havent read, but nature is very self-sustaining, in nature you rarely just find carcasses or things that are unused or unliving, I read somewhere once that the remains of a bear have never been found naturally bc once a bear dies its body is eaten right away

so lets say that everything on the earth died at some point, that doesnt seem like it would be able to produce the 22 million barrels of oil that the USA alone uses

maybe it has something to do with trees massively going underground and fossilizing, it just doesnt seem like fossils create our fuel, we find fuel in places where no living creatures have ever lived

if I am completely off, someone explain, otherwise this doesnt make sense

and if this IS true, then we should be fine for fuel, or at least have plenty of years to develop a good replacement, bc if fossil fuel thoery is right, then there should be fuel being made all the time by the earth, even if it is little by little

just a note, fossil fuels is just a theory



everything that has ever lived has or will die.

V4D3R
12-18-2006, 08:28 PM
Here's a theory - or maybe a warning.

We have been warned to stop using fossil fuels and radio-active fuels from mankinds "brothers from the stars"

Oil Excavation dangers:

The logic is quite simple. Oil naturally holds the worlds tectonic plates in check and letting them slip smoothly. Remove the grease from a door hinge and you get more creaking when the door opens and closes.

Nuclear fuel dangers:

Everytime we detonate or spark a nuclear fusion, we can't see the holes we are tearing into other dimensions because we don't even know what alot things are on the micro/nano(god particle) scale. We know there are things we can't see but they're there - yet we test nukes and do so much damage to this world for what purpose?

UFO sightings did not really start to happen "en-masse" until the USA tested it's first nuke in Trinity. When that happened, they got really concerned.

Ufos's are seen mostly around volcanic areas or places on the Earth with high seismic activity. They actually warn people of impending earth-quakes, solar flare-ups, and volcanoe erruptions.


From the Revelations of the Dead Sea Scrolls:

8. "Also, in that day, you will enjoy Fellowship and Communion with those of my Children who dwell in the bowels of this orb. They will come forth freely and interchange information with you, which will add to your understanding of their existence. These, my other Children, will invite you to remain with them as you wish. You will enter their places of abode and you may leave their abode as freely as you wish."
"My Spirit of Life is Universal. I have many more sons and daughters who have never transgressed my perfect Law. They shall come to you. Some will visit for a short time while others will remain among you for certain times and seasons which I will appoint."

zeppelin2k
12-19-2006, 09:54 AM
everything that has ever lived has or will die.

no fucking way....

when something dies, most of the time it gets eaten, only humans bury their dead in boxes and cremate them

so where exactly is this untouched death going on, en masse

the only time I can think of (from history) that this happened is when the dinosaurs died and the ice age, but even then some animals survived and I doubt THAT many animals turned into the amount of oil we have found

I am just saying the fossil fuel theory isnt enough to explain all the fuel we have

and as for vader's post, thats an interesting theory about the oil being a way to lubricate the land moving underneath us

Gawd
12-19-2006, 01:20 PM
I have a 30 gallon tank on my 400 hp truck......It gets 13 miles to the gallon and i drive alone all the time everywhere...its a 4 door truck too aAHAHAHAHAHA

hidden ninja
12-19-2006, 05:59 PM
no fucking way....

when something dies, most of the time it gets eaten, only humans bury their dead in boxes and cremate them

so where exactly is this untouched death going on, en masse

the only time I can think of (from history) that this happened is when the dinosaurs died and the ice age, but even then some animals survived and I doubt THAT many animals turned into the amount of oil we have found

I am just saying the fossil fuel theory isnt enough to explain all the fuel we have
from wikipedia:

Fossil fuels are hydrocarbons, primarily coal, fuel oil or natural gas, formed from the remains of dead plants and animals.[1] The theory that hydrocarbons were formed from these remains was first introduced by Mikhail Lomonosov in 1757. In common dialogue, the term fossil fuel also includes hydrocarbon-containing natural resources that are not derived from animal or plant sources. These are sometimes known instead as mineral fuels. The utilization of fossil fuels has enabled large-scale industrial development and largely supplanted water-driven mills, as well as the combustion of wood or peat for heat.

Fossil fuel is a general term for buried combustible geologic deposits of organic materials, formed from decayed plants and animals that have been converted to crude oil, coal, natural gas, or heavy oils by exposure to heat and pressure in the earth's crust over hundreds of millions of years.


All fossil fuels are literally "fossils", i.e., the remains of thick layers of either land vegetation or marine plankton that died millions of years ago and were then buried and folded into the earth, heated and compressed to be transformed into either a type of sedimentary rock (coal) or deposits of liquid hydrocarbons (oil and gas). [1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_fuels#_ref-0

zeppelin2k
12-19-2006, 08:24 PM
from wikipedia:

Fossil fuels are hydrocarbons, primarily coal, fuel oil or natural gas, formed from the remains of dead plants and animals.[1] The theory that hydrocarbons were formed from these remains was first introduced by Mikhail Lomonosov in 1757. In common dialogue, the term fossil fuel also includes hydrocarbon-containing natural resources that are not derived from animal or plant sources. These are sometimes known instead as mineral fuels. The utilization of fossil fuels has enabled large-scale industrial development and largely supplanted water-driven mills, as well as the combustion of wood or peat for heat.

Fossil fuel is a general term for buried combustible geologic deposits of organic materials, formed from decayed plants and animals that have been converted to crude oil, coal, natural gas, or heavy oils by exposure to heat and pressure in the earth's crust over hundreds of millions of years.


All fossil fuels are literally "fossils", i.e., the remains of thick layers of either land vegetation or marine plankton that died millions of years ago and were then buried and folded into the earth, heated and compressed to be transformed into either a type of sedimentary rock (coal) or deposits of liquid hydrocarbons (oil and gas). [1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_fuels#_ref-0

I know all of this and I have read all of this

the part that I would say makes the most sense is the theory about marine life being buried and then converting to oil, but as for land, there are not many cases of whole masses of living land becoming buried, other than after volcanic events

as well, we have barely tapped into ANY of the oil of the ocean if this theory is correct, which means we have massive amounts of oil left, bc most of the sea has never been touched by man yet, except for the sea trawls killoing everything that it can reach

basically this whole theory about oil coming from fossils sounds like a load of bullshit when you actually look at the numbers, but then again the scientists could be wrong about the number of times earth has had mass amounts of death on land, in which case it makes the theory more viable

does anyone have any resources on alternative theories to where fuel comes from

zeppelin2k
12-19-2006, 08:40 PM
here you FUCKING go
lol

shit like this
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2003/02/17/337289/index.htm

peace

Prolifical ENG
12-19-2006, 09:34 PM
Its because of the geologic time scale.

You know how much oil we use daily and in the last 2 centuries. That number can be calculated easily.

You kinda know how long that is.

When we are talking about these millions of years, it is a geologic time scale. For many people the geologic time scale is extremely hard to imagine. If you only knew how long a million years was....no one does....they might know the number 1 million. Even 1000 years is hard to imagine in most instances if your lifespan was that long.

V4D3R
12-19-2006, 10:32 PM
here you FUCKING go
lol

shit like this
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2003/02/17/337289/index.htm

peace

Maybe the Earth (Gaia) found a way to get rid of us by pushing oil up to us.

zeppelin2k
12-20-2006, 02:17 PM
Its because of the geologic time scale.

You know how much oil we use daily and in the last 2 centuries. That number can be calculated easily.

You kinda know how long that is.

When we are talking about these millions of years, it is a geologic time scale. For many people the geologic time scale is extremely hard to imagine. If you only knew how long a million years was....no one does....they might know the number 1 million. Even 1000 years is hard to imagine in most instances if your lifespan was that long.

I get your point about the time being long
but that doesnt say anything
other then develop a stronger argument that we've got tons of oil

the whole oil running out bullshit, seems too convenient for the oil companies, since the 1970's the oil companies have been saying that oil is going to run out in 10 years, and now its 36 years later, its just like the pharmaceutical companies pushing their agendas into science just to make more money

Prolifical ENG
12-20-2006, 03:23 PM
I get your point about the time being long
but that doesnt say anything
other then develop a stronger argument that we've got tons of oil

the whole oil running out bullshit, seems too convenient for the oil companies, since the 1970's the oil companies have been saying that oil is going to run out in 10 years, and now its 36 years later, its just like the pharmaceutical companies pushing their agendas into science just to make more money

of course we get tones of oil over millions of years!

in the 70s they said that we woild run out of oil by 1999 or some shit. Since then we have switched to alternative sources, machines have gotten more efficient, etc.

and of course there are people that want to "scare" the public that we are running out of oil faster than we already are. Just like the governments are trying to scare us about global warming (which is working very well)

I know organic chemistry, so the process is no mystery to me. Perhaps you can do a calculation of how much oil the earth has.

zeppelin2k
12-21-2006, 02:20 PM
of course we get tones of oil over millions of years!

in the 70s they said that we woild run out of oil by 1999 or some shit. Since then we have switched to alternative sources, machines have gotten more efficient, etc.

and of course there are people that want to "scare" the public that we are running out of oil faster than we already are. Just like the governments are trying to scare us about global warming (which is working very well)

I know organic chemistry, so the process is no mystery to me. Perhaps you can do a calculation of how much oil the earth has.

well maybe you'd like to explain it in english for the thread

as for global warming, the shit is happening, I am in Toronto and we've got weather where we can go out in t shirts and be okay, and its fucking winter
global warming is the shit

lol
but yeah, if that theory is legit and can be demonstrated then I guess it would have to be solid, but it takes a long time to make oil out of fossils so I dont know how its provable, and if a theory is contradicted, science and logic would dictate that the theory is false unless you ad hoc it with some sidenotes to keep fitting your theory, but then its no longer the original theory anyways

Prolifical ENG
12-21-2006, 03:42 PM
as for global warming, the shit is happening, I am in Toronto and we've got weather where we can go out in t shirts and be okay, and its fucking winter
global warming is the shit

I live in Toronto to ;) plus I study atmospheric science and I can easily argue how global warming isnt affecting us, even though it is a mild december (so far). it takes a lot more than that.

Explaning the process is hard, since you have mentioned how much time is required to produce the crude, but it is a drop in the bucket compared to the time dinosaurs were dying. So then its still at square one about geologic time scales.

Sexy Jasper
12-21-2006, 04:30 PM
Europe's biggest dino is revealed

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gif http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/06/sci_nat_enl_1166722253/img/laun.jpg (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/06/sci_nat_enl_1166722253/html/1.stm)
Giant on the shore
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/inline_dashed_line.gif
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/icons/open_icon.gifEnlarge Image (javascript: void window.open('http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/06/sci_nat_enl_1166722253/html/1.stm', '1166722339', 'toolbar=0,scrollbars=0,location=0,statusbar=0,men ubar=0,resizable=1,width=660,height=518,left=312,t op=100');)

Fossils found in Spain belong to what is probably Europe's biggest ever dinosaur, scientists report.
Turiasaurus would have been 30 to 37 metres long, and would weigh between 40 and 48 tonnes.
Writing in the journal Science, researchers say the beast is probably the only member so far discovered of a European group of Jurassic reptiles.
The global record for the biggest dinosaur belongs to Argentinosaurus, a South American reptile twice as heavy.
Like the rest of the giant long-necked sauropods, Turiasaurus riodevensis was a herbivore, despite the fierce appearance of its teeth.
Big-boned
Fossils came to light in 2004 at Teruel in eastern Spain, and the scientists responsible, from the Fundacion Conjunto Paleontologico de Teruel-Dinopolis, have just published a formal analysis.
Although languishing some way behind Argentinosaurus, Turiasaurus was a substantial specimen.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42378000/jpg/_42378577_teeth416.jpg Many of the details of Turiasaurus are inferred from its teeth


At 1.79m long, its humerus (upper arm bone) is one of the largest ever recorded, while one of its claws is comparable with a rugby ball or American football. The discovery site also contains teeth from theropod dinosaurs, Stegosaurus remnants, and fragments from fish and turtles.
By comparing its features with other European dinosaurs, the scientists deduce that it belongs to a previously unknown clade, or grouping, which evolved in the Jurassic period (200 to 145 million years ago).
Teeth excavated in France, Portugal and the UK are similar, indicating that Turiasaurus, or more likely its close relatives, ranged across the continent.

zeppelin2k
12-21-2006, 06:10 PM
I live in Toronto to ;) plus I study atmospheric science and I can easily argue how global warming isnt affecting us, even though it is a mild december (so far). it takes a lot more than that.

Explaning the process is hard, since you have mentioned how much time is required to produce the crude, but it is a drop in the bucket compared to the time dinosaurs were dying. So then its still at square one about geologic time scales.

haha yeah I read ur location afterwards

I take pol and phil so I can argue anything easily lol

I took a bunch of environmental policy courses and global warming is definately happening and its effecting Canada at least from the information thats been gathered by scientists, doing europe right now but its break so dont want to think about that right now

and you cant even explain how oil is made, so how do you know the shit is legit

Prolifical ENG
12-21-2006, 07:13 PM
so you want me to explain how it is made? i dont know how to start because i don't know how much background you have in chemistry or geology.

it is true not all "fossil fuels" are not all from decaying plants and animals over time. some of them are mineral fuels. nevertheless fossil fuel is the general term.

basically the organic material is turned into crude and oil by heat and pressure. (and yes A LOT of heat and pressure) Eventually over time, sedimentary rock forms over the material as it finds its way underneath the surface "trapped" in the rock, and deposits over time.

What you are asking me to do is explain a large branch of organic chemistry.

In short, when the organic material is broken down, the simpler form of hydrocarbons. hydrocarbons are chains of carbon atoms along with many hydrogen atoms. every different type of hydrocarbon molecule gives the compound unique characteristics. (CH4, C2H6 Benzyene rings, etc)

when crude is found, it is all those different hydrocarbons all randomly together along with other substances. the easiest way to separtate them all is a tower of boiling points. therefore methane would get separated first.

if you dont know very much about chemistry, here is basic chemical reactions. a chemical reaction can take as long as a very small fraction of a second to thousands of years. of course in some organic chemistry, alcohol can be made almost instantly with help of a catalyst (something that is used to speed up reactions) while others just take time.

It would be good if we could actually just make oil with help of a catalyst, however, then it would take so much energy just to make the oil than the oil can be used for combustion. the heat and pressure beneath the earth's surface plays a key role in that.

edit: as seen above, you know all those concepts that My First Timbs has listed, what exactly did you want me to explain?

zeppelin2k
12-21-2006, 08:39 PM
well I read most of the stuff, and I understand the way that oil is made through those theories

I dont have any problems with how it is said to work, the problem I have is how there are demonstrations of these theories not being the way oil is created

but if those are bullshit then of course its a better case for fossil fuels, its just whenever the demonstrations of the theory possibly being wrong is brought up there's never any followup as to why the theory should still be believed

Prolifical ENG
12-21-2006, 09:37 PM
Ah I just read your first post again, and your question is how the oil fields are created. yes there are geologic explanations for that.

but you are aiming at how these theories are bullshit.

of course they could be. there are a lot of old scientific theories that have been scrapped after many years of usefulness. through time maybe the theory will fail when some kind of test is performed where it should have had a different result.

i believe because i know how these things behave on a molecular level. there is always a possibility that these things are wrong.

that means a question could be, if petroleum didnt come from plants and animals, where did it come from? was it always there? aliens? maybe we can think of other ways how we get these oil fields.

zeppelin2k
12-23-2006, 03:59 PM
Ah I just read your first post again, and your question is how the oil fields are created. yes there are geologic explanations for that.

but you are aiming at how these theories are bullshit.

of course they could be. there are a lot of old scientific theories that have been scrapped after many years of usefulness. through time maybe the theory will fail when some kind of test is performed where it should have had a different result.

i believe because i know how these things behave on a molecular level. there is always a possibility that these things are wrong.

that means a question could be, if petroleum didnt come from plants and animals, where did it come from? was it always there? aliens? maybe we can think of other ways how we get these oil fields.

well I am guessing if it isnt fossils, its probably always been here
and if we have the wrong theory about how it was originally produced, then we have less of a chance of being able to create oil in a lab from scratch

whitey
12-24-2006, 12:52 AM
it couldnt have technically always been here. because there wasnt always a "here". but if youre saying it formed naturally with the devlopment of earth over its billions of years of history, than i guess so.

but im still believing it happend through dead plants and animals and extreme heat/pressure and all that madness.

7EL7
12-24-2006, 01:18 AM
How can dinosaur bones benefit you right now ?

there are wars going on

fuck dino bones


http://www.wutang-corp.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30516

adomstrange
01-07-2007, 05:33 PM
so you want me to explain how it is made? i dont know how to start because i don't know how much background you have in chemistry or geology.

it is true not all "fossil fuels" are not all from decaying plants and animals over time. some of them are mineral fuels. nevertheless fossil fuel is the general term.

basically the organic material is turned into crude and oil by heat and pressure. (and yes A LOT of heat and pressure) Eventually over time, sedimentary rock forms over the material as it finds its way underneath the surface "trapped" in the rock, and deposits over time.

What you are asking me to do is explain a large branch of organic chemistry.

In short, when the organic material is broken down, the simpler form of hydrocarbons. hydrocarbons are chains of carbon atoms along with many hydrogen atoms. every different type of hydrocarbon molecule gives the compound unique characteristics. (CH4, C2H6 Benzyene rings, etc)

when crude is found, it is all those different hydrocarbons all randomly together along with other substances. the easiest way to separtate them all is a tower of boiling points. therefore methane would get separated first.

if you dont know very much about chemistry, here is basic chemical reactions. a chemical reaction can take as long as a very small fraction of a second to thousands of years. of course in some organic chemistry, alcohol can be made almost instantly with help of a catalyst (something that is used to speed up reactions) while others just take time.

It would be good if we could actually just make oil with help of a catalyst, however, then it would take so much energy just to make the oil than the oil can be used for combustion. the heat and pressure beneath the earth's surface plays a key role in that.

edit: as seen above, you know all those concepts that My First Timbs has listed, what exactly did you want me to explain?

You nailed most of this on the head - but, in the beginning you say that not all fossil fuels came from decaying Plant and Animal matter?? Where else did it come form.?? Later on you use the term "mineral fuels" - Well, no HYDROCARBON can come from a so-called 'mineral-fuel'. In fact, I cannot conceive of something as a 'Mineral Fuel'! How?? Zinc is a mineral, Gold is a mineral, Copper is a mineral - What fuel is ever made of minerals??

ALL FUEL IS MADE FROM ORGANIC COMPONENTS!!. MINERALS ARE NOT ORGANIC - HENCE THE CLASSIFICATION OF "MINERAL"....

Plus, most of the fossil fuels DO COME FROM PLANT MATTER, think about it - Dinosaurs were not made of different elements and compounds than any other animals living today. How many animals do we use as fuel today ?? Yet, plant fuels we utilize a lot of. Animal matter breaks down into Methane Gas which is not as efficient as Ethenol Gas, which we get from plant matter, like corn.

Prolifical ENG
01-07-2007, 06:14 PM
You nailed most of this on the head - but, in the beginning you say that not all fossil fuels came from decaying Plant and Animal matter?? Where else did it come form.?? Later on you use the term "mineral fuels" - Well, no HYDROCARBON can come from a so-called 'mineral-fuel'. In fact, I cannot conceive of something as a 'Mineral Fuel'! How?? Zinc is a mineral, Gold is a mineral, Copper is a mineral - What fuel is ever made of minerals??

ALL FUEL IS MADE FROM ORGANIC COMPONENTS!!. MINERALS ARE NOT ORGANIC - HENCE THE CLASSIFICATION OF "MINERAL"....

Plus, most of the fossil fuels DO COME FROM PLANT MATTER, think about it - Dinosaurs were not made of different elements and compounds than any other animals living today. How many animals do we use as fuel today ?? Yet, plant fuels we utilize a lot of. Animal matter breaks down into Methane Gas which is not as efficient as Ethenol Gas, which we get from plant matter, like corn.

Those carbonaceus fuels are sometimes known as "mineral fuels". I dont agree with it and view minerals the same way that you do. But some people define it as anything that left a deposit in the earth. That line does supposed to say "also known as mineral fuels", since my next sentence is "nevertheless fossil fuel is the general term."

Minerals still do play in an important part in the creation of those organic compounds in several ways. But it is true that the word "hydrocarbons" has its purpose.

But thank you for bringing up how most of the petroleum is from the plants. I never looked at how the 2 compare.

That means people are mislead by the idea since animal's organic makeup is more complex that the material ends up as more crude. But on the other hand the total amount of plant matter opposed to animal matter in the world is to an extreme.