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Visionz
04-11-2007, 11:00 AM
Got a couple of questions for you.


Where does all that mystery, all the unknown come from in your eyes?


Does life itself seem to be devoid of purpose to you? (not on a personal level but life as a whole, solitary enity)

SID
04-11-2007, 11:29 AM
how can life be devoid of purpose, when thats what we live for.... "purpose"

Visionz
04-11-2007, 02:11 PM
how can life be devoid of purpose, when thats what we live for.... "purpose" I'd have to disagree with that. Many people seem to go through life without any real sense of purpose but that's on an individual level, I was referring to things on a larger scale. The only purpose that's definite in that sense is procreation.

Longbongcilvaringz
04-11-2007, 02:18 PM
uh no why would life be devoid of purpose, dont you think people who believe when you die there is nothing more, will make more of their lives?

what mystery? and unknown?

i can think of things i dont know anything about, and things that for me are unknown.... but how does making something up to answer them, make them any less "unknown"?

things become known as human history progresses, things that we have no knowledge about now, will be taken for granted in the future.

Visionz
04-11-2007, 02:26 PM
uh no why would life be devoid of purpose, dont you think people who believe when you die there is nothing more, will make more of their lives?

what mystery? and unknown?

i can think of things i dont know anything about, and things that for me are unknown.... but how does making something up to answer them, make them any less "unknown"?

things become known as human history progresses, things that we have no knowledge about now, will be taken for granted in the future.
I speak of these things on a singular level, humanity as a whole. There is a sum total of human knowledge and then everything that we don't know beyond that. History would show that no matter what progress in thinking and technology we make there is still always more to know, more to uncover. I don't see that trend ever really ending hence the constant mystery, the constant unknown.

Longbongcilvaringz
04-11-2007, 02:35 PM
sorry i dont reallty follow what your point is...

say there will always be an unknown of some kind, how does a greater being or a religion put you at ease....just make something up to fill a gap in knowledge?

this conversation so far is rooted in arguments and points (on both sides)hich arent concrete, and dont make for good reasoning.

many people argue that "faith cannot be explained", fair enough, but maybe a knowledge of no supreme being cannot be explained either, its jsut there

SID
04-11-2007, 02:40 PM
on a whole, ill be honest with the youth growing up in a generation of such unthinkable insanity and turmoil, understandably lots of people would feel empty and without purpose when theres such fierce competition for everything (jobs,women,money,respect,love) when you dont come out top, you feel jus like another dead fish in this world o bilions upon billions. Not just, as life gets harder and shit more fucked up, (death,death, death all around) thinking about the afterlife and god is an inevatable contemplation. I have been thinking about the idea of religon and god inside myself for sometime now... on one hand i feel we must be creatures of a divine creation(our incredible intelligence, civilisation, hard knock lives), but on ther other hand, theres countless religons and theories it gets FUSTRATING.....but all in all purpose is a thing we must all seek if we want to live fruitfull lives on our short time in earth, whether that be, having children, a good job making parents proud we have to find it....spiritually on an a bigger scale its jus a neverending quest for solitude and faith in the afterlife and the almighty... but i think god has jus laid all theses religons and shit as obstacles(he took the time too make us why would he make things easy, what would be the point?)....as long as we believe in a supreme being..thats what he will always take into account...

peace (good thread eric, an excellent point)

Visionz
04-11-2007, 02:51 PM
sorry i dont reallty follow what your point is...

say there will always be an unknown of some kind, how does a greater being or a religion put you at ease....just make something up to fill a gap in knowledge?

this conversation so far is rooted in arguments and points (on both sides)hich arent concrete, and dont make for good reasoning.

many people argue that "faith cannot be explained", fair enough, but maybe a knowledge of no supreme being cannot be explained either, its jsut there
My beliefs concerning God isn't something that's made up but observed. The inter-connectedness of absolutely everything points to that direction and faith, for me, is trusting, believing and knowing the reason for all of it. Much of it relies on intuition and thus escapes the realm of concrete evidence but at the same time is concrete enough for those with the eyes to see.

At the same time I can't really comprehend not seeing it. What's that like on a daily basis?

Longbongcilvaringz
04-11-2007, 02:54 PM
i will never understand it i guess.

there is alot of your post which i would normally question, but i dont really think its something you can argue about, just a different set of beliefs.

Visionz
04-11-2007, 03:00 PM
i will never understand it i guess.

there is alot of your post which i would normally question, but i dont really think its something you can argue about, just a different set of beliefs.
Well the point isn't really to argue but to understand, if you have questions feel free to ask and I'll try to answer as clearly as possible, though the personal experience isn't something that always fits nicely into language.
As an atheist, what would you define as your own set of beliefs?

Longbongcilvaringz
04-11-2007, 03:02 PM
My beliefs concerning God isn't something that's made up but observed. The inter-connectedness of absolutely everything points to that direction and faith, for me, is trusting, believing and knowing the reason for all of it. Much of it relies on intuition and thus escapes the realm of concrete evidence but at the same time is concrete enough for those with the eyes to see.

At the same time I can't really comprehend not seeing it. What's that like on a daily basis?


see this is the thing, i dont see a need to justify or reason for everything that is around me necessarily, i can argue with religious people, and have done with some of my friends about why things are the way they are etc. but in the end to me it isnt important at all.

the idea of consciousness interests me though, every now and then im struck with the question, its kind of hard to articulate, "why am i who i am"...i always sort of try and think about my perspective on life. this is what confuses me and i have no knowledge of, but it doesnt stir up in me some sense of a greater being. its just interesting that humans are conscious of death and also of them selves.

anyway, its really hard for me to explain it.

on interconnectivity of everything (i assume you mean in nature?) i dont see this as posing a problem for an atheist, it would just be explained through science...

id also like to bring up the point that basically humans through intelligence always try to rationalise anything, i guess its an instinct, and always need to show connection between different events in order to make sense of them. lots of people draw connection between un relating events for the purpose of explaining a greater problem.

humans cant accept coincidence, its a fact.

im not saying everything is coincidence, but think about it, im the same, we all cant except when something happens and its called coincidence.

Longbongcilvaringz
04-11-2007, 03:09 PM
Well the point isn't really to argue but to understand, if you have questions feel free to ask and I'll try to answer as clearly as possible, though the personal experience isn't something that always fits nicely into language.
As an atheist, what would you define as your own set of beliefs?



yeah that post was actually directed at the star wars guy.

beliefs... im really not sure,

its something ive thought about alot, see for me, and i assume this is the case with alot of people who dont subscribe to a religion of "belief" or a supreme being, it started off as more of a reaction towards religion. sort of like a thought that this isnt right, for some reason.

and then i guess, you sort of form beliefs by countering the beliefs of religions, eg. Creation, Heaven, The Bible (im using christianity as thats my personal experience)

but after this, it leaves a bit of an empty (not the right term but thats all i have right now) feeling maybe, its hard to explain (i know i keep on saying this but it is), as if there isnt anything to believe in. and thats where i am at now, the thought that 'why should there be something that you believe in?' , why is that necessary?

my feelings are that most non religious people are that way as the result of a negative reaction to organised religion.

Visionz
04-11-2007, 03:10 PM
on a whole, ill be honest with the youth growing up in a generation of such unthinkable insanity and turmoil, understandably lots of people would feel empty and without purpose when theres such fierce competition for everything (jobs,women,money,respect,love) when you dont come out top, you feel jus like another dead fish in this world o bilions upon billions. Not just, as life gets harder and shit more fucked up, (death,death, death all around) thinking about the afterlife and god is an inevatable contemplation. I have been thinking about the idea of religon and god inside myself for sometime now... on one hand i feel we must be creatures of a divine creation(our incredible intelligence, civilisation, hard knock lives), but on ther other hand, theres countless religons and theories it gets FUSTRATING.....but all in all purpose is a thing we must all seek if we want to live fruitfull lives on our short time in earth, whether that be, having children, a good job making parents proud we have to find it....spiritually on an a bigger scale its jus a neverending quest for solitude and faith in the afterlife and the almighty... but i think god has jus laid all theses religons and shit as obstacles(he took the time too make us why would he make things easy, what would be the point?)....as long as we believe in a supreme being..thats what he will always take into account...

peace (good thread eric, an excellent point) On the frustration level, I think its a huge issue. Humans, as a whole, don't seem to move with any real purpose. This, I think is that people will get caught up in a mentality of doing what's good for me (me,me,me) instead of what's good for the whole. Until we really reach that understanding of being part of the whole and acting accordingly then we'll always have the issues which you mention here.

I do think its good to learn all that you can from the various world's religions because there's usefull knowledge contained within them all. I don't profess to any one particular religion and don't think I need to. jmo on it.

AcidPhosphate69
04-11-2007, 03:14 PM
I dunno, I don't really say there is no higher power or things beyond our comprehesion but honestly, it really doesn't effect how I'm going to lead my life. I just think religion created by man is a joke. You gotta understand that, for the most part, we as a species are idiots. I'd rather follow my heart than another man's book, regardless of the subject matter.

SID
04-11-2007, 03:29 PM
i feel you....i searched most religons searchin for concrete truth and spiritual solidarity, but its a matter of what your heart and soul tell you, a mistake a lot of people are making nowadays, concentrating on the logical,affirming with the realistic, it dosent seem a bad thing, but our brains simply cannot contemplate the universe its creation or anthing else, there have been millions before us and millions after, there will be thousands more ideologies,philospohies and religons, when we die, as there were that have gone unrecorded. Humans have a funny habit of jumping on a wagon of a particular sect, theology, or moral system because they see the masses adhearing to this particular following, it seems logical, but as i said before, maybe thats a mistake were making, always going with the "logical"......anyway my overall point is...belief, faith, in a creator,religon or both must occur naturally and not forced by excessive searching and believing you have to have a religon, as long as there is a creator he will except your way of praisng him, as long as you live a rightieous life....purpose is just a word we use to justify each one of our billions of lives, and without it, what would we be....purpose brought you here...purpose...makes you wake up...purpose...drives you to go to work every day...anyway iam going on.... i hope this made sense

peace

Ultimate Fist
04-11-2007, 08:59 PM
Got a couple of questions for you.


Where does all that mystery, all the unknown come from in your eyes?


Does life itself seem to be devoid of purpose to you? (not on a personal level but life as a whole, solitary enity)

Not really an atheist because I suspect something might be out there and I haven't found it yet but I'm sort of in that category so I'll answer.

Life has a purpose. It's a process that is continually unfolding. It's a vague purpose but its there.

living_undead
04-11-2007, 10:28 PM
Got a couple of questions for you.


Where does all that mystery, all the unknown come from in your eyes?


Does life itself seem to be devoid of purpose to you? (not on a personal level but life as a whole, solitary enity)
the unknown always was, and will be.
what is 'known' flows from it.
after someone sheds some light on it..

but why must there be a 'scheme' to the universe?
is it more comforting to think there's a power behind things with intention?
creation works at random.
we give it purpose.

AcidPhosphate69
04-11-2007, 11:46 PM
I got a thought, why do you have to be religious to be spiritual? Can't I believe in the human mind and spirit instead of something laid out for me to worship?

Visionz
04-12-2007, 02:14 AM
the idea of consciousness interests me though, every now and then im struck with the question, its kind of hard to articulate, "why am i who i am"...i always sort of try and think about my perspective on life. this is what confuses me and i have no knowledge of, but it doesnt stir up in me some sense of a greater being. its just interesting that humans are conscious of death and also of them selves.
the self-awareness is very interesting indeed, that's another thing with my own look; seeing how evolution works and how its traces are within the brain, its seems to make sense on why evolution would have to play out like it did. In the end it just doesn't seem like we are here by accident. Of what's been say in this thread thus far, seems like everyone agrees that life indeed has purpose. But what's the purpose for the purpose itself? The only answer that seems to make sense to me is that we are to unify as people completely. I think one day we'll get past all the bullshit and people won't have to wait to die to see if heavens really real.
anyway, its really hard for me to explain it.

on interconnectivity of everything (i assume you mean in nature?) i dont see this as posing a problem for an atheist, it would just be explained through science... I am talkin about natures and its rules, there's a certain harmony to the functioning of just about everything, when you turn that self-awareness outwards, I'd called it selfless awarness,(works praticulary well outside in a place where you're comfortable and relax) you just chill, listens to everything around, see everything around you, just be still while everything else moves, you can just feel the oneness of everything. Smoke a joint and try it if you haven't already, good way to kinda fill that emptiness

id also like to bring up the point that basically humans through intelligence always try to rationalise anything, i guess its an instinct, and always need to show connection between different events in order to make sense of them. lots of people draw connection between un relating events for the purpose of explaining a greater problem.

humans cant accept coincidence, its a fact.

im not saying everything is coincidence, but think about it, im the same, we all cant except when something happens and its called coincidence.What I just said is only gonna confirm what you're saying here and I'd have to agree. I don't think of God as Santa in the Sky meddling with everyday life type thing but just like the planets stay in rotation, human movement on a whole follows patterns, some change over time and some don't. But not much happens out of pure coincidence, if for no other reason, human intent.



its something ive thought about alot, see for me, and i assume this is the case with alot of people who dont subscribe to a religion of "belief" or a supreme being, it started off as more of a reaction towards religion. sort of like a thought that this isnt right, for some reason.

and then i guess, you sort of form beliefs by countering the beliefs of religions, eg. Creation, Heaven, The Bible (im using christianity as thats my personal experience). Puttin aside whether God is real or not, religous text can teach people very admirable traits, love, respect, familyhood, honesty, truth etc The problem is that not everyone learns these lessons but instead memorizes them and exploits them. Religon is very profitable from everything from the catholic church to greedy preachers, and politicians.....Or they possibly turn into fanatics and end up taking things completely outta context and basically go nuts. I've seen a wide range and I can see why organized religion runs people off, most of it nowadays is naseuating but I've never mistaked God and Her text for His followers. This would be the best definition I think I could give to explain it. Imagine those pictures of Hubble telescope pointing off at those thousands of galaxies out there. Now on those galaxies imagine that many of those millions of stars that are within each one are inhabited by lifeforms (say a ratio around a 1 & thousand shot) that are atleast as intelligent, if not much more. Now imagine the positive energy radiating off of every single high-minded individual out there that this would add up too and then take that energy then add to it everything they know and then combine it into a singular Conscience that was devoid of either time or sex. That would be the power of God.

but after this, it leaves a bit of an empty (not the right term but thats all i have right now) feeling maybe, its hard to explain (i know i keep on saying this but it is), as if there isnt anything to believe in. and thats where i am at now, the thought that 'why should there be something that you believe in?' , why is that necessary? What I just mentioned, aside from the sigular conscience is highly probable. I think it'd be very arrogant to think we're alone in space or a like a 1 in a Billion shot. I recently watched something that was showing how the goverment is payin all this money to fly this jet waaaaay the fuck up in the atmosphere with these little glass plates stickin out of it. What they're doing is collecting these pure carbon specks that fall in from outerspace. As I'm sure you know with all life being carbon-based here on earth, it makes it seem like the seeds of life are floating all across the galaxy and all they have to do is land upon favorable conditions. It coincidince with the purpose packaged up lol.


the unknown always was, and will be.
what is 'known' flows from it.
after someone sheds some light on it..

but why must there be a 'scheme' to the universe?
is it more comforting to think there's a power behind things with intention?
creation works at random.
we give it purpose.Still think the purpose is always there as explained above. And there's consistency in the universe whether we're here or not to observe. Of course we give them the name spiral galaxies but that fibonnacci sequence IS taking place again and again and then somehow ends up in the nautilus shell too and I realize this as I pour creamer into my coffee watching those same spirals. ( you get the picture)

I got a thought, why do you have to be religious to be spiritual? Can't I believe in the human mind and spirit instead of something laid out for me to worship?You can believe whatever it is you want, if those beliefs make you better as a person then they are good ones to hold, essentially thats one of the main points to all religion of the world. If you get there a different way, so be it.

netscape check two
04-13-2007, 12:41 AM
In what way, would you define a person that is agnostic?

Longbongcilvaringz
04-13-2007, 04:57 AM
What I just said is only gonna confirm what you're saying here and I'd have to agree. I don't think of God as Santa in the Sky meddling with everyday life type thing but just like the planets stay in rotation, human movement on a whole follows patterns, some change over time and some don't. But not much happens out of pure coincidence, if for no other reason, human intent.




Still think the purpose is always there as explained above. And there's consistency in the universe whether we're here or not to observe. Of course we give them the name spiral galaxies but that fibonnacci sequence IS taking place again and again and then somehow ends up in the nautilus shell too and I realize this as I pour creamer into my coffee watching those same spirals. ( you get the picture)

You can believe whatever it is you want, if those beliefs make you better as a person then they are good ones to hold, essentially thats one of the main points to all religion of the world. If you get there a different way, so be it.


good post.

religion has merit, its base teachings are generally for betterment of individuals and society.

i just feel as though people shouldnt need an organisation to dictate to them what is right and wrong.

Ultimate Fist
04-13-2007, 05:58 PM
My end conclusion is that religion didn't really serve much of a purpose as far as bettering mankind. The good people who are religious would probably be good if they weren't and the people who are religious fundies would be just as bad without religion.