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View Full Version : Where did the Muslim tradition of having long beards come about?


check two
05-09-2007, 11:36 PM
It's been a while since I heard about the origins of the beard thing. I don't remember how it started. I was wondering why Muslim men are required to wear long beards? Are they allowed to trim their beards every so often? How are the women able to kiss the bearded men, without getting all scratched up from the long scruffy beard? Sorry if this is a stupid topic. I was just curious. lol

the silencer
05-09-2007, 11:55 PM
im readin a book right now that goes into the history of Islam and fundamentalism and shit like that...

i dont think he cites the specific origin of the beard thing but i know he mentions that it has to be at least 7 cm long..which is weird....

check two
05-10-2007, 12:13 AM
What if a person has trouble growing a good amount of facial hair? Does he wear a fake beard or something?

diggy
05-10-2007, 12:29 AM
The tradition of growing beards of a fist's length comes from Hadith (so-called " sayings of Propher Muhammad PBUH).

In these oral and written traditions, men are warned not to look effeminate or like "beardless boys" or else they will face punishment in the afterlife.

They are told to grow their beards a fist's length.

However, this tradition contradicts the Quran ( the word of Allah or God). In the Quran, Allah does not tell people they will be punished if they shave. Think about it! Allah cares about the actions of people; whether they are good or bad. Is Allah (God) shallow and evil to punish people just because they shave the hairs that grow out of their chins? The rational answer is NO!!

These hadith (so-called sayings of the prophet) came about around 250 yrs after his death. Therefore they are not reliable as truthful words that came out of the prophets mouth. They are oral and written fabricated myths and stupid ideas of how one should live.

Only the most stupid muslims follow Hadith.

theafghan
05-10-2007, 12:52 AM
there's NO rule in orthodox islam that men need to wear beards. the only reason them extremists do it is cuz prophet muhammad had a beard too.

which actually is a stupid reason cuz prophet muhammad did not want anyone to copy or "worship" him in any way the way christians do to christ

them extremists are stupid...like the way they war against the modern world with the weapons of the modern world..."lets use laser guided stinger missiles cuz we hate progress"

diggy
05-10-2007, 01:00 AM
Exactly!!

check two
05-10-2007, 01:22 AM
Yeah, cause I made a thread a little while back here about how some barbers are being threatened in some areas, that if they shave or trim the beard of a Muslim, they could be killed.

And I don't see why the facial area would need to be so thick and scruffy looking. It reminds me of a lumberjack or a woodsman. I mean, if they are worried that a guy with no facial hair looks feminine... Then why couldn't he just have a little facial hair?

When I was younger, and worked at a grocery store, it was the opposite. We weren't allowed to have like any facial hair, except for a mustache. I couldn't even have a trimmed goatee. But some guys were sporting real big bushy mustaches, and that was ok. lol

SID
05-10-2007, 01:59 AM
the beards are not part of real islam! there are more of a tradition that the the so called hardcore muslims think are from the qu,ran....they are growing beards to hide there inner discomfort and instabillity. a true muslim would wear a suit looked groomed and well presentable not some scruffy beard and a skull cap

noel411
05-10-2007, 02:50 AM
Allah does not tell people they will be punished if they shave. Think about it! Allah cares about the actions of people; whether they are good or bad. Is Allah (God) shallow and evil to punish people just because they shave the hairs that grow out of their chins? The rational answer is NO!!
Is Allah (God) shallow and evil enough to punish people for ANY action or non-action? The rational answer is NO!!
They are oral and written fabricated myths and stupid ideas of how one should live.
Sounds a lot like the Quran to me.

Urban_Journalz
05-10-2007, 03:49 AM
The beards on men are like the Hijabs upon the Sisters. You see the beard and you know that he's Muslim. It seperates us from looking like and being mistaken with the disbelievers. I doubt if it's a major sin, as it wasn't identified in The Qur'an as one. Still, the Sunnah is the best example of living that Muslims have to follow aside from The Qur'an, so what makes sense therein, I follow it.

Black Man
05-10-2007, 09:24 AM
The tradition of growing beards of a fist's length comes from Hadith (so-called " sayings of Propher Muhammad PBUH).

In these oral and written traditions, men are warned not to look effeminate or like "beardless boys" or else they will face punishment in the afterlife.

They are told to grow their beards a fist's length.

However, this tradition contradicts the Quran ( the word of Allah or God). In the Quran, Allah does not tell people they will be punished if they shave. Think about it! Allah cares about the actions of people; whether they are good or bad. Is Allah (God) shallow and evil to punish people just because they shave the hairs that grow out of their chins? The rational answer is NO!!

These hadith (so-called sayings of the prophet) came about around 250 yrs after his death. Therefore they are not reliable as truthful words that came out of the prophets mouth. They are oral and written fabricated myths and stupid ideas of how one should live.

Only the most stupid muslims follow Hadith.

The quran came after the prophets death also. There was no book called the quran during his time, nor did he write one. The quran was to be spoken not read. Quran means to recite.

Kong
05-10-2007, 12:36 PM
god said not to shave the sides of your face.

check two
05-10-2007, 03:21 PM
If you see a man with a beard, how can you automatically tell that he's Muslim though? In the areas of the world where there is a high concentration of Muslims, are non muslims not allowed to grow beards?

SID
05-10-2007, 03:26 PM
to be honest g when i went to libya which is an ISLAMIC STATE, i saw about 2 people with beards, they have them in the west a lot to show 1. there pround of their religon and dont give a fuck what haters think 2. they are not strong with the deen (religon) so they present themselves to be religous when in fact there not. And if your a non-muslim and want to grow a beard in a muslic country it really depends on the type of beard, if its a big muslim beard and peeps know your not muslim that might be a problem...

check two
05-10-2007, 03:40 PM
lol, so there's a difference between a big scruffy beard, and a big Muslim beard? How can a person tell the difference? Like if a non Muslim hermit grows a long beard, he could be in trouble? lol

SID
05-10-2007, 03:46 PM
you can tell an islamic beard when you see it

diggy
05-10-2007, 03:49 PM
The quran came after the prophets death also. There was no book called the quran during his time, nor did he write one. The quran was to be spoken not read. Quran means to recite.

Incorrect.

The Quran was revealed, recited and writen during the Prophet's life.
The sole purpose of the Prophet's mission was to reveal the Quran. After he did that, he died and people made up hadith (sayings) attributed to him, which are not reliable.

But Quran is reliable cuz it is protected by God.

check two
05-10-2007, 03:57 PM
How can a person tell the difference then between a Muslim beard and a non Muslim beard? Is is styled differently? lol

CITY ZEEKER
05-10-2007, 04:52 PM
How can a person tell the difference then between a Muslim beard and a non Muslim beard? Is is styled differently? lol

no man, thts some stupid shit sed by an igrnorant fool, in islam it doesnt say tht a beard should 1.5 inches etc etc, its all crap, in Islam, we say tht to grow a beard, better explaning KEEP HAIR ON UR FACE, keeping it how long how thick, thts all stupid, ive seen religious men, wit trimmed beards and than again i see other people tht look like they never shaved since puberty.. and yes its sed in the hadith tht u should grow ur beard and also wear a ring on ur right ring finger i believe, BECAUSE THE PROFIT MOHAMMAD (P.B.U.H.) DID IT.. as for me being muslim, i trim my beard i keep my sides fresh and i dnt wear a ring.

CITY ZEEKER
05-10-2007, 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Man http://www.wutang-corp.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.wutang-corp.com/forum/showthread.php?p=807674#post807674)
The quran came after the prophets death also. There was no book called the quran during his time, nor did he write one. The quran was to be spoken not read. Quran means to recite.

Incorrect.

The Quran was revealed, recited and writen during the Prophet's life.
The sole purpose of the Prophet's mission was to reveal the Quran. After he did that, he died and people made up hadith (sayings) attributed to him, which are not reliable.

But Quran is reliable cuz it is protected by God.
__________________


hes a 5%, they got their own views

CITY ZEEKER
05-10-2007, 05:14 PM
The quran came after the prophets death also. There was no book called the quran during his time, nor did he write one. The quran was to be spoken not read. Quran means to recite.

the Quran came after the death of profit Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H.)?

if so:
if there was no holy book of Islam, and It came after Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H.), then who spread it? was it the uneducated people, the bedouins?

if there was no holy book of Islam, than wat is Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H.) known for, why is he proclaimed a Prophet?

if the Quran was suppose to be talkin about and not read, than wouldnt u think the bedouins would want to read and go in depth of this holy book themselves?

in the 5 pillars of Islam it is sed in the holy month of ramadaan, u r suppose to fast, pray, AND READ THE QURAN..

get ur facts straight homeboy...

Ultimate Fist
05-10-2007, 08:59 PM
Incorrect.

The Quran was revealed, recited and writen during the Prophet's life.
The sole purpose of the Prophet's mission was to reveal the Quran. After he did that, he died and people made up hadith (sayings) attributed to him, which are not reliable.

But Quran is reliable cuz it is protected by God.

Here's a question I've been meaning to ask a Muslim but I don't know if you're qualified to answer it or if I'll have to ask somebody who's a scholar or something. Holy Books that are sent down by God are protected by God right? Then how did the Torah and the Gospels become corrupted? Couldn't God have protected them from corruption the way He's protecting the Quran?
'

diggy
05-10-2007, 10:10 PM
Here's a question I've been meaning to ask a Muslim but I don't know if you're qualified to answer it or if I'll have to ask somebody who's a scholar or something. Holy Books that are sent down by God are protected by God right? Then how did the Torah and the Gospels become corrupted? Couldn't God have protected them from corruption the way He's protecting the Quran?
'


My understanding of it:

Not all the holy books were protected.

First, the Torah was sent to the Israelites thru prophet Moses.
After it was revealed, the Israelites became corrupt and started adding, deleting, and adjusting the revelation of God as they see fit, so another holy book had to be sent.




So the Injeel ( The Gospel of Jesus) was revealed thru prophet Jesus (Issa). After his death, it was changed again, the same way the Israelites changed their book. Also, fake witnesses to the Gospel of Jesus claimed to have additional verses. People like John (the gospel of John), Peter (the gospel of peter), etc.

Since humans are so corrupt and have changed the holy books, God will reveal a holy book which will be protected from being altered by humans. This book will confirm previous messages in earlier holy books ( the Injeel, and the Torah), and will also have additional revelations to make it a complete message for mankind and jinns. This book is the last book to be revealed to humans by God and is called Al-Quran.

No form of alternation, addition, or deleting of verses can happen with this last revelation.

Golden_Armz
05-11-2007, 10:05 AM
Here's a question I've been meaning to ask a Muslim but I don't know if you're qualified to answer it or if I'll have to ask somebody who's a scholar or something.


thats the wisest thing ive read in this whole post!

at least you seem to know the difference between a Muslim, and a Scholar of Islam! Even when asking a scholar you gotta find one connected to a Madhab (school of thought) because theres many DIY scholars about too!

definatelty dont ask diggy, hes spreading falsehood...

diggy,

if you have quarms about Hadith why dont you keep it within a circle who deals with these issues, how can a non muslim understand Islam when ur claiming to be Muslim and rejecting what has been accepted since the first 3 generations...

Of course Hadith was written a while after the Prophet died because during the first few decades, there was no need for the writing!! The people lived with the Prophet, therefore had no need to read books about him.

You have made all these claims but provided no evidence. If there was no Hadith about Sunnah, WRITTEN DOWN, we would still have Hadith (oral) till this day, weather you or your "Rejecters" group likes it or not. Only then would we have the REAL false Hadiths, which were the reason they were collected, sifted, chained and recorded, from trustworthy individuals in the first place!!

stop spreading sectarian deviance and just put 2 and 2 together!

PEACE

WARPATH
05-11-2007, 11:09 AM
This topic is about as interesting and pointless as asking a porn star why she or he shaves their pubes.

check two
05-11-2007, 01:21 PM
Thanks for your pointless 'input'.

WARPATH
05-11-2007, 01:57 PM
Check Two....if you check twice.

You might've realized the "point" behind that post.

HANZO
05-11-2007, 07:19 PM
i dnt think the qu'ran forces a muslim to grow a beard, i kno in turkey its somewat uncommon to see one with a beard. in fact when u go to school u have to be clean shaven, same if you a government worker to. in ottoman times, only the sultans could have a beard, the soldiers were not allowed to have a beard, and moustaches were allowed for the officers only. the beard thing is simply cultural in my opinion.

diggy
05-11-2007, 10:46 PM
definatelty dont ask diggy, hes spreading falsehood...


What do u mean by this statement?

Urban is a grown adult and does not need u to tell him who to ask questions from.

I give facts and I have the understanding and respect of people's intelligence to make whatever decision they want after that.

You on the other hand must think u have the only truth. U tell him who to not ask questions from as if I don't bring facts. That statement u made is none other than yur damn opinion.

If u think I'm posting up falsehood, proove it by highlighting my statements of "falsehood" and proove them wrong!!

Other wise shut yur opinionated unprooving worthless mouth.

U and yur hadith followers are nothing but a bunch of brainless, latent-suicide bombing, ignorant, blind, deaf and dumb, worst than cattle, scum of the earth savages in the physical form of human beings.

The news media talks on and on about u hadith followers and yur ridiculous, maddening, sick, diseased beliefs everyday. People like u shame the title "muslims", u shame the Quran by misquoting it and taking it out of context, and u drive those who are ignorant of the truth away from the truth in more anger, hatred, disgust, and ignorance.

The punishment by Allah is unbearable!

Golden_Armz
05-14-2007, 11:30 AM
salaam

What do u mean by this statement?


what i mean by this is in every post about islam you rave on about how bad hadith is, instead of just givin dawah. Theres difference of opinion on many things in Islam, but we just gotta learn to get along, otherwise we will never unify. If you have trouble with hadith, speak to knowledgable muslim circles about it, and speak in a civilised manner instead of cursing muslims. you will just be met with negative responses, and the circle will continue.

instead of giving dawah about islam, you mentioning issues that the non muslims here have no clue about!


Urban is a grown adult and does not need u to tell him who to ask questions from.

i didnt ask him to ask me, i told him what every muslim with some knowledge will tell you....go to the source for you answers!! the internet is a sad place for islam, with all these muslims speaking their opinion on matters theyre not qualified to speak about!!

I give facts and I have the understanding and respect of people's intelligence to make whatever decision they want after that.

sorry i seemed to miss the facts in all the rantings...

You on the other hand must think u have the only truth. U tell him who to not ask questions from as if I don't bring facts. That statement u made is none other than yur damn opinion.

the only Truth i have is LA ILLAHA ILLALLAH MUHAMMADUN RASULLALLAH...otherwise im in the dark..

If u think I'm posting up falsehood, proove it by highlighting my statements of "falsehood" and proove them wrong!!

Other wise shut yur opinionated unprooving worthless mouth.


this is what i mean by negativity

U and yur hadith followers are nothing but a bunch of brainless, latent-suicide bombing, ignorant, blind, deaf and dumb, worst than cattle, scum of the earth savages in the physical form of human beings.


you sound like a Fox news follower


The news media talks on and on about u hadith followers and yur ridiculous, maddening, sick, diseased beliefs everyday. People like u shame the title "muslims", u shame the Quran by misquoting it and taking it out of context, and u drive those who are ignorant of the truth away from the truth in more anger, hatred, disgust, and ignorance.

ditto

The punishment by Allah is unbearable!

indeed...so be warned!!

salaam

diggy
05-14-2007, 11:46 PM
salaam



what i mean by this is in every post about islam you rave on about how bad hadith is, instead of just givin dawah. Theres difference of opinion on many things in Islam, but we just gotta learn to get along, otherwise we will never unify. If you have trouble with hadith, speak to knowledgable muslim circles about it, and speak in a civilised manner instead of cursing muslims. you will just be met with negative responses, and the circle will continue.

instead of giving dawah about islam, you mentioning issues that the non muslims here have no clue about!


U sound like yur afraid of me speaking the truth! Why shouldn't I speak about the falsity of hadith? Why do I have to go to "knowledgable muslim circles" about hadith when hadith is a lie to begin with?

And by me speaking of the evils of hadith, I am giving dawah. I mention hadith, a subject "the non muslims here have no clue about" and I break it down. So what's the problem?

Why do u have to be all defensive if u really live the truth; If my statements about hadith were false, y are u defensive!?

SID
05-15-2007, 05:46 AM
are you muslim diggy?

SID
05-15-2007, 05:51 AM
"U and yur hadith followers are nothing but a bunch of brainless, latent-suicide bombing, ignorant, blind, deaf and dumb, worst than cattle, scum of the earth savages in the physical form of human beings."

well i guess not (i agree there is a lot of confusion on the validity of the hadiths but even if they are not valid they dont promote all you said they are jus the sayings of the prophet (P.B.U.H)

Five5aDay
05-19-2007, 01:34 AM
U sound like yur afraid of me speaking the truth! Why shouldn't I speak about the falsity of hadith? Why do I have to go to "knowledgable muslim circles" about hadith when hadith is a lie to begin with?

And by me speaking of the evils of hadith, I am giving dawah. I mention hadith, a subject "the non muslims here have no clue about" and I break it down. So what's the problem?

Why do u have to be all defensive if u really live the truth; If my statements about hadith were false, y are u defensive!?

If you dont mind me asking, how do you form the lines of prayer, then, assuming that you consider yourself a muslim? How do you fast?

What "proof" do you have to declare on the so-called "falsity" of hadeeth? Are you a scholar?

Five5aDay
05-19-2007, 01:47 AM
The main purpose of the beard was to distinguish the believers from the kufar, and even though it is sunnah, it is WAJIB for a muslim male to keep one, which means obligatory. It doesn't matter what the "turks" are doing, or what the "pakis" are doing, or what "akbar up the block" is doing etc...all of that is irrelevant, because on the day of judgement Allah(swt) will not question you on the actions of anybody else except those of your own.

It's real easy to dismiss parts of this deen out of "convenience" so we can feel better about our shortcomings, but I'm afraid that that wont cut it. For all of you who will undoubtedly respond with "why would Allah(swt) punish people over something so insignificant as a beard?," who are YOU to decide on whats significant and what isn't? If we felt content in following our own principles and doing whatever we "felt good" doing, then what would be the purpose of revelation in the first place? Allah(swt) commands the believers in his book to OBEY THE MESSENGER(saw), and here we are, not even able to follow something as simple as this....how sad is that? If the speech of Allah(swt) is eternal, which it IS, then how can the words and commandments of his MESSENGER(saw) become "outdated?"

If you are unable to keep a beard out of personal weakness, and fear out of what other people will think of how you would look wearing one, then you should ask ask Allah(swt) to strengthen your eemaan, instead of trying to come up with excuses to fulfill your own vain desires.

Golden_Armz
05-19-2007, 09:10 AM
.

diggy
05-19-2007, 09:14 PM
If you dont mind me asking, how do you form the lines of prayer, then, assuming that you consider yourself a muslim? How do you fast?

What "proof" do you have to declare on the so-called "falsity" of hadeeth? Are you a scholar?


Here is the proof of the falsity of Hadith:
http://www.submission.org/had-corruption.html

HANZO
05-19-2007, 09:25 PM
The main purpose of the beard was to distinguish the believers from the kufar, and even though it is sunnah, it is WAJIB for a muslim male to keep one, which means obligatory. It doesn't matter what the "turks" are doing, or what the "pakis" are doing, or what "akbar up the block" is doing etc...all of that is irrelevant, because on the day of judgement Allah(swt) will not question you on the actions of anybody else except those of your own.

It's real easy to dismiss parts of this deen out of "convenience" so we can feel better about our shortcomings, but I'm afraid that that wont cut it. For all of you who will undoubtedly respond with "why would Allah(swt) punish people over something so insignificant as a beard?," who are YOU to decide on whats significant and what isn't? If we felt content in following our own principles and doing whatever we "felt good" doing, then what would be the purpose of revelation in the first place? Allah(swt) commands the believers in his book to OBEY THE MESSENGER(saw), and here we are, not even able to follow something as simple as this....how sad is that? If the speech of Allah(swt) is eternal, which it IS, then how can the words and commandments of his MESSENGER(saw) become "outdated?"

If you are unable to keep a beard out of personal weakness, and fear out of what other people will think of how you would look wearing one, then you should ask ask Allah(swt) to strengthen your eemaan, instead of trying to come up with excuses to fulfill your own vain desires.

mate the beard has nothing to do with islam just because islamic figures had one doesnt mean the followers should. its pure arab culture nothing else. its not obligatory for a muslim male to have a beard. dont get all fanatical.

Ultimate Fist
05-20-2007, 12:40 AM
The main purpose of the beard was to distinguish the believers from the kufar

That seems dubious. In the medieval world, everyone had beards almost. Even today, Orthodox Jews and Orthodox Muslims wear pretty similar beards. I assumed kufar is one that doesn't believe; correct me if it isn't.

check two
05-20-2007, 01:26 AM
I think it's pretty sad if a person would be required to have an itchy, scruffy looking long ass beard.

Also, on an off the topic remark, for women to have to cover themselves all up, especially when it's like 90 degrees outside.

Five5aDay
05-20-2007, 11:09 PM
Here is the proof of the falsity of Hadith:
http://www.submission.org/had-corruption.html

submission.org is a site run by the followers of the late Dr. Rashad Khalifa, an Egyptian scientist/numerologist who claimed that he was a messenger of Allah(swt). He was a dajaal by every sense of the word...

brother, please dont tell me you consider that proof......

and you didn't answer me when I asked you how you pray, or how you arrange the lines for prayer in each of the 5 salats, or how you know what the etiquette of jumm'ah is? Do you even attend jumm'ah?

Five5aDay
05-20-2007, 11:15 PM
mate the beard has nothing to do with islam just because islamic figures had one doesnt mean the followers should. its pure arab culture nothing else. its not obligatory for a muslim male to have a beard. dont get all fanatical.


If the prophet(saw) considered the beard important enough to command his followers to wear one, then it has "very much" to do with Islaam. We are a nation of people, and every nation has an identity...this was the case with the ummah until we disobeyed Allah(swt), created sects, and let other people rule us. It has nothing to do with being fanatical, nobody can force somebody to do what he doesn't want to do....and if a muslim male doesn't wear one, it doesn't make him "less muslim," just misguided....

...and to be misguided thats one thing, but to make up your own rules and to put words into the mouth of the Prophet(saw) is something altogether different, and a grave sin.

diggy
05-21-2007, 07:06 PM
submission.org is a site run by the followers of the late Dr. Rashad Khalifa, an Egyptian scientist/numerologist who claimed that he was a messenger of Allah(swt). He was a dajaal by every sense of the word...

brother, please dont tell me you consider that proof......

and you didn't answer me when I asked you how you pray, or how you arrange the lines for prayer in each of the 5 salats, or how you know what the etiquette of jumm'ah is? Do you even attend jumm'ah?


You have to be the most ignorant stereotypical muslim fuckhead ever.

So fuckin what if Rashad claimed prophethood. Check some of the facts by your own reading of Quran, if yur interested in the truth.

You think u know it all. I used to b like u, until I started asking questions, doing my own research and reading of Quran.

You are just repeating shit you learned from hadith; not using ur own intelligence to figure stuff out; just parroting words.

Poor you. Your a sheik's puppet, his pawn, a mindless hadith quoter.

Are beards really to distinguish a muslim from kufar. Kufar wear beards too idiot. It's not like kufar don't have the ability to grow one!


How to pray in jumah? Fuck jumah. It is not authorized in quran.
Salat? It is not authorized or explained how to do it in quran.
The call to prayer, the movements of "salat"... they are not explained in quran.

They r all explained in hadith. Hadith r a bunch of sayings that appeared 250 yrs + after the prophet's death.

If I tell you a story and ask u 24 hrs later the exact words I said in the story, u would not get the story to b 100 % exactly like I said it.

Well hadith was told 250 yrs after prophets death. What r the chances of the relaters of hadith to get the story right?

Start thinking now.

Five5aDay
05-22-2007, 12:05 AM
You have to be the most ignorant stereotypical muslim fuckhead ever.

So fuckin what if Rashad claimed prophethood. Check some of the facts by your own reading of Quran, if yur interested in the truth.

You think u know it all. I used to b like u, until I started asking questions, doing my own research and reading of Quran.

You are just repeating shit you learned from hadith; not using ur own intelligence to figure stuff out; just parroting words.

Poor you. Your a sheik's puppet, his pawn, a mindless hadith quoter.

Are beards really to distinguish a muslim from kufar. Kufar wear beards too idiot. It's not like kufar don't have the ability to grow one!


How to pray in jumah? Fuck jumah. It is not authorized in quran.
Salat? It is not authorized or explained how to do it in quran.
The call to prayer, the movements of "salat"... they are not explained in quran.

They r all explained in hadith. Hadith r a bunch of sayings that appeared 250 yrs + after the prophet's death.

If I tell you a story and ask u 24 hrs later the exact words I said in the story, u would not get the story to b 100 % exactly like I said it.

Well hadith was told 250 yrs after prophets death. What r the chances of the relaters of hadith to get the story right?

Start thinking now.

So let me get this straight, you, some "self-styled" muslim who believes that Rashad Khalifa was a messengerof Allah(swt), actually possess the nerve and audacity to lecture me on Qur'aan, when the Qur'aan makes itself emphatically clear that Muhammad(saw) was the last of the messengers...and if you're next tactic is going to be resorting to playing games with the arabic language, please, for your own sake, don't even do it to yourself...

Of course Rashad Khalifaa would do whatever it took to discredit hadeeth, because if people accepted sound hadeeth, then they would automatically know to label that man as a LIAR...

And you still haven't put forth any proof to back up your claims regarding the authenticity of hadeeth, all I see you doing here is referring these people to submission.org, and calling people who uphold the sunnah puppets and pawns with absolutely no leg to stand on. Well, sir, you're going to have to do a lot better than that.

may Allah(swt) bless and guard the righteouss. Ameen.

check two
05-22-2007, 12:10 AM
What if a Muslim guy just isn't able to grow a beard? If he has trouble growing a decent amount of facial hair, is he looked down upon? Like I said before, I feel sorry for the Muslim women that have to kiss a guy with a long, scruffy beard.

diggy
05-22-2007, 01:00 AM
So let me get this straight, you, some "self-styled" muslim who believes that Rashad Khalifa was a messengerof Allah(swt), actually possess the nerve and audacity to lecture me on Qur'aan, when the Qur'aan makes itself emphatically clear that Muhammad(saw) was the last of the messengers...and if you're next tactic is going to be resorting to playing games with the arabic language, please, for your own sake, don't even do it to yourself...

Of course Rashad Khalifaa would do whatever it took to discredit hadeeth, because if people accepted sound hadeeth, then they would automatically know to label that man as a LIAR...

And you still haven't put forth any proof to back up your claims regarding the authenticity of hadeeth, all I see you doing here is referring these people to submission.org, and calling people who uphold the sunnah puppets and pawns with absolutely no leg to stand on. Well, sir, you're going to have to do a lot better than that.

may Allah(swt) bless and guard the righteouss. Ameen.


Read my recent threads and check if I said I believe Rashad is a messenger. I did not say it. I said check some of the facts he brought.

I said so "what if he said he was a prophet". I never said I accepted him as a prophet. I said check his facts about stuff he said about hadith. I'm not interested in anything on this thread except to say hadith is false. That's it.

Muhammad is the last messenger. There, I said it. enough with that. I gave u a link about hadith. Check it.

Five5aDay
05-22-2007, 11:06 PM
What if a Muslim guy just isn't able to grow a beard? If he has trouble growing a decent amount of facial hair, is he looked down upon? Like I said before, I feel sorry for the Muslim women that have to kiss a guy with a long, scruffy beard.

Of course not. Allah(swt) doesn't burden a person beyond his scope....

Five5aDay
05-22-2007, 11:14 PM
Read my recent threads and check if I said I believe Rashad is a messenger. I did not say it. I said check some of the facts he brought.

I said so "what if he said he was a prophet". I never said I accepted him as a prophet. I said check his facts about stuff he said about hadith. I'm not interested in anything on this thread except to say hadith is false. That's it.

Muhammad is the last messenger. There, I said it. enough with that. I gave u a link about hadith. Check it.

well, If you truly believe that Muhammad(saw) is the last messenger of Allah(swt) then you should know better than to listen to anything a known liar has to say....I've been familiar with submission.org for damn near 8 years, nothing on there is earth-shattering....I can sit here and give you 10 websites denouncing and disproving all this madness, but what would be the point of that? I want to know what YOU know about the matter, and you obviously know nothing. Please dont peddle your filth on this forum, because I notice there's a lot of people here who dont have a complete understanding of Islaam and people like you are the reason why they are easily misguided....you, sir, know nothing about Islaam.

and if you cant offer any proof to support what you're saying then this conversation is over...

diggy
05-23-2007, 01:43 AM
well, If you truly believe that Muhammad(saw) is the last messenger of Allah(swt) then you should know better than to listen to anything a known liar has to say....I've been familiar with submission.org for damn near 8 years, nothing on there is earth-shattering....I can sit here and give you 10 websites denouncing and disproving all this madness, but what would be the point of that? I want to know what YOU know about the matter, and you obviously know nothing. Please dont peddle your filth on this forum, because I notice there's a lot of people here who dont have a complete understanding of Islaam and people like you are the reason why they are easily misguided....you, sir, know nothing about Islaam.

and if you cant offer any proof to support what you're saying then this conversation is over...


Fuck u and yur fake islam. Yur the reason y misconceptions of islam are spreading. The filth on this forum is yu talking about how people should have beards like that really means anything. So what? A person has a beard. Are they more holy than beardless people? Your logic is idiotic.

I know alot about islam. Oh, yu studies submission.org for 8 yrs? Well, your brain is not working properly cuz you got nothing from that website.

What do you mean the conversation is over, newbie? You did not start this thread. You just come in here an intrude on the conversation. I already gave you the link to the site and yur still asking for proof! It is too bad yur brain does not function properly. Too bad for you!

Golden_Armz
05-23-2007, 12:12 PM
^u clearly dont study enough Quran, to be able to debate in a civilised manner...ur rude and ignorant, and uve provided one "website" with ur "proof"...well heres 10 with my proof...i wanted to read em all before posting this but here they are anyways....

http://www.jamiat.org.za/sumhadrej.html (http://www.jamiat.org.za/sumhadrej.html)

http://www.themodernreligion.com/misc/cults/anti_muslim_hadithrejectors.html (http://www.themodernreligion.com/misc/cults/anti_muslim_hadithrejectors.html)

http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=44 (http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=44)

http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/questions/QA00002867.aspx (http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/questions/QA00002867.aspx)

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=2611&CATE=120 (http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=2611&CATE=120)

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=881&CATE=1 (http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=881&CATE=1)

http://ibnayyub.wordpress.com/downloads/the-authority-of-sunnah-mufti-taqi-uthmani/ (http://ibnayyub.wordpress.com/downloads/the-authority-of-sunnah-mufti-taqi-uthmani/)

http://www.central-mosque.com/fiqh/asunnah1.htm (http://www.central-mosque.com/fiqh/asunnah1.htm)

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=3367&CATE=120 (http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=3367&CATE=120)

http://www.sunnah.org/fiqh/usul/probativeness_sunna/Default.htm (http://www.sunnah.org/fiqh/usul/probativeness_sunna/Default.htm)

diggy
05-24-2007, 01:08 AM
^u clearly dont study enough Quran, to be able to debate in a civilised manner...ur rude and ignorant, and uve provided one "website" with ur "proof"...well heres 10 with my proof...i wanted to read em all before posting this but here they are anyways....

http://www.jamiat.org.za/sumhadrej.html (http://www.jamiat.org.za/sumhadrej.html)

http://www.themodernreligion.com/misc/cults/anti_muslim_hadithrejectors.html (http://www.themodernreligion.com/misc/cults/anti_muslim_hadithrejectors.html)

http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=44 (http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=44)

http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/questions/QA00002867.aspx (http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/questions/QA00002867.aspx)

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=2611&CATE=120 (http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=2611&CATE=120)

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=881&CATE=1 (http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=881&CATE=1)

http://ibnayyub.wordpress.com/downloads/the-authority-of-sunnah-mufti-taqi-uthmani/ (http://ibnayyub.wordpress.com/downloads/the-authority-of-sunnah-mufti-taqi-uthmani/)

http://www.central-mosque.com/fiqh/asunnah1.htm (http://www.central-mosque.com/fiqh/asunnah1.htm)

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=3367&CATE=120 (http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=3367&CATE=120)

http://www.sunnah.org/fiqh/usul/probativeness_sunna/Default.htm (http://www.sunnah.org/fiqh/usul/probativeness_sunna/Default.htm)



I don't need to check out your false info websites. I already did the knowledge on the Quran and hadith. I found out using my rational thinking (something u should try doing) that u "muslims" are only that in name. You do not follow Quran. U go against it by practicing hadith which goes against Quran, rational thought, and nature.

Some verses:

"Do they not consider the Koran with care, If it had been from anyone other than Allah, it would contain many discrepancies (Koran 4:82)."

The QUran has no errors, but hadith does. Allah brought QUran as the last revelation and protected it. If Allah wanted u to follow hadith, Allah would have protected it. But it was not protected. Do the knowledge.

[Surah 6:19] Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "GOD's. He is the witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed, you bear witness that there are other gods beside GOD." Say, "I do not testify as you do; there is only one god, and I disown your idolatry."

Muhammad's duty was to preach the Quran, nothing else. But u hadith followers would rather imitate fake stories about how he dressed, how he grew a beard, how he slept, how he brushed his teeth with a stick, etc.



[SUrah 30:32] (Do not fall in idol worship,) like those who divide their religion into sects; each party rejoicing with what they have.

[Surah 3:105] Do not be like those who became divided and disputed, despite the clear proofs that were given to them. For these have incurred a terrible retribution.

I think this represent u sunnis and shias and other groups. You are described in the Quran so clearly. It's too bad that u don't see who u are, but I see.

I have prooved my point by going to the source of the teachings of Allah- THe Quran. Try reading it. BUt u rather read ficticious stories called hadith! All u do is go to weak websites were anyone can put up their opinion.

Prove to me by using QUran that Allah accepts u following hadith. This is a challenge. U can't do it. BUt try anyways.

theafghan
05-24-2007, 01:36 AM
where did the orthodox jewish tradition of having long beards come about?

check two
05-24-2007, 02:47 PM
Maybe to scare women away, if they were being irritating and nagging.

Five5aDay
05-24-2007, 07:43 PM
Fuck u and yur fake islam. Yur the reason y misconceptions of islam are spreading. The filth on this forum is yu talking about how people should have beards like that really means anything. So what? A person has a beard. Are they more holy than beardless people? Your logic is idiotic.

I know alot about islam. Oh, yu studies submission.org for 8 yrs? Well, your brain is not working properly cuz you got nothing from that website.

What do you mean the conversation is over, newbie? You did not start this thread. You just come in here an intrude on the conversation. I already gave you the link to the site and yur still asking for proof! It is too bad yur brain does not function properly. Too bad for you!

Whether or not im a "newbie" has no relevance to this discussion whatsoever. I saw you spreading poison on these forums, answering sincere questions from non-muslims with nothing but pure lies that you yourself admit you got from "some website," so I decided to set the record straight and call you out.

This goes way beyond wearing a beard, because the reason why people like you say "it doesn't matter," is because you've completely abandoned the Sunnah of the Prophet(saw) and chose to act upon your own inclinations. THAT IS MISGUIDANCE!!!!!

Lets take it beyond the beard, you just said "Fuck Jum'uah," those were your own words, and being that you dont accept any of the hadeeth as authentic, that means you probably wouldn't even know how to pray with the brothers if you were to walk into a masjid...how pathetic is that? and you call yourself a muslim? Jum'uah and the Salaah in general are what binds this ummah together, the fact that you've abandoned them is very telling of how deluded you really are...if every muslim were to follow your lead, we would be in an even worse off position then we are now, because we would all be practicing something different!!! That is the imporantance of the SUNNAH.

It's thinking like yours that makes it easy for false prophets, liars, and dajaals to gain new recruits into their army...I mean, look at you, you're over here telling me how much you know about Islaam, yet you're trying to refer me to a website influenced by a man who declared himself a messenger of Allah(swt), how does that compute "akhi," please, lemme know....

Five5aDay
05-24-2007, 07:53 PM
I don't need to check out your false info websites. I already did the knowledge on the Quran and hadith. I found out using my rational thinking (something u should try doing) that u "muslims" are only that in name. You do not follow Quran. U go against it by practicing hadith which goes against Quran, rational thought, and nature.

Some verses:

"Do they not consider the Koran with care, If it had been from anyone other than Allah, it would contain many discrepancies (Koran 4:82)."

The QUran has no errors, but hadith does. Allah brought QUran as the last revelation and protected it. If Allah wanted u to follow hadith, Allah would have protected it. But it was not protected. Do the knowledge.

[Surah 6:19] Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "GOD's. He is the witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed, you bear witness that there are other gods beside GOD." Say, "I do not testify as you do; there is only one god, and I disown your idolatry."

Muhammad's duty was to preach the Quran, nothing else. But u hadith followers would rather imitate fake stories about how he dressed, how he grew a beard, how he slept, how he brushed his teeth with a stick, etc.



[SUrah 30:32] (Do not fall in idol worship,) like those who divide their religion into sects; each party rejoicing with what they have.

[Surah 3:105] Do not be like those who became divided and disputed, despite the clear proofs that were given to them. For these have incurred a terrible retribution.

I think this represent u sunnis and shias and other groups. You are described in the Quran so clearly. It's too bad that u don't see who u are, but I see.

I have prooved my point by going to the source of the teachings of Allah- THe Quran. Try reading it. BUt u rather read ficticious stories called hadith! All u do is go to weak websites were anyone can put up their opinion.

Prove to me by using QUran that Allah accepts u following hadith. This is a challenge. U can't do it. BUt try anyways.


LOL, what do those verses have to do with abandoning the Sunnah? Absolutely NOTHING. Perhaps you'd like to explain these ayat:

"But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith until they make you (i.e., Prophet Muhammad (`alaihis- salaatu was-salaam)) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept them with full submission." Surah An-Nisaa' Ayah 65

8:1, "So fear Allah and set things right between you and obey Allah and His Messenger if you are believers."
8:20, "O you who believe. Obey Allah and His Messenger if you are believers."

8:46, "And obey Allah and His Messenger and do not quarrel with each other, so as to lose heart."

24:54, "Say, 'Obey Allah and obey the Messenger; then if you turn away, upon him rests what is laid on him, and upon you rests what is laid on you. If you obey him, you will be guided."

47:33, "O you who believe, obey Allah and the Messenger and do not make your deeds go in vain."

58:13, "So establish salaah and pay zakaah and obey Allah and His Messenger."

64:12, "And obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn your backs, Our Messenger has only to deliver the clear message."

4:13, "And whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger, Allah shall admit him in the Gardens underneath which rivers flow."

4:69, "And whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger - they are in the company of those whom Allah has blessed."

24:52, "All that the believers say, when they are called to Allah and His Messenger that he may judge between them, is that they say, 'We hear, and we obey:'It is these who are successful. Whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger and fears Allah and has awe of Him - it these who are the winners."

33:71, "And whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger, he has won great success."

49:14, "If you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not diminish you anything of your deeds."

4:64, "And we sent no messenger, but that he should be obeyed by the leave of Allah."

I could go on, and on, and on....notice how Allah(swt) equates obedience to him with obedience to his messenger(saw). What YOU ARE ADVOCATING, is the complete disregard of what the messenger(saw) himself taught, and how he interpreted what was revealed to him, and to just follow our OWN interpretations instead....that is NOT ISLAAM. As a matter of fact, that is what the christians did with Jesus(as) and look what happened to them....

diggy
05-24-2007, 11:53 PM
LOL, what do those verses have to do with abandoning the Sunnah? Absolutely NOTHING. Perhaps you'd like to explain these ayat:

"But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith until they make you (i.e., Prophet Muhammad (`alaihis- salaatu was-salaam)) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept them with full submission." Surah An-Nisaa' Ayah 65

8:1, "So fear Allah and set things right between you and obey Allah and His Messenger if you are believers."
8:20, "O you who believe. Obey Allah and His Messenger if you are believers."

8:46, "And obey Allah and His Messenger and do not quarrel with each other, so as to lose heart."

24:54, "Say, 'Obey Allah and obey the Messenger; then if you turn away, upon him rests what is laid on him, and upon you rests what is laid on you. If you obey him, you will be guided."

47:33, "O you who believe, obey Allah and the Messenger and do not make your deeds go in vain."

58:13, "So establish salaah and pay zakaah and obey Allah and His Messenger."

64:12, "And obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn your backs, Our Messenger has only to deliver the clear message."

4:13, "And whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger, Allah shall admit him in the Gardens underneath which rivers flow."

4:69, "And whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger - they are in the company of those whom Allah has blessed."

24:52, "All that the believers say, when they are called to Allah and His Messenger that he may judge between them, is that they say, 'We hear, and we obey:'It is these who are successful. Whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger and fears Allah and has awe of Him - it these who are the winners."

33:71, "And whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger, he has won great success."

49:14, "If you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not diminish you anything of your deeds."

4:64, "And we sent no messenger, but that he should be obeyed by the leave of Allah."

I could go on, and on, and on....notice how Allah(swt) equates obedience to him with obedience to his messenger(saw). What YOU ARE ADVOCATING, is the complete disregard of what the messenger(saw) himself taught, and how he interpreted what was revealed to him, and to just follow our OWN interpretations instead....that is NOT ISLAAM. As a matter of fact, that is what the christians did with Jesus(as) and look what happened to them....



U can say whatever u want, but do the knowledge of these verses:

[SUrah 30:32] (Do not fall in idol worship,) like those who divide their religion into sects; each party rejoicing with what they have.

[Surah 3:105] Do not be like those who became divided and disputed, despite the clear proofs that were given to them. For these have incurred a terrible retribution.


These verses describe all u factions that divide up and still call yurself muslims.

Those 2 verses above clearly condemn you and peeps like u. Show me a verse in Quran that condems me for just following QUran!

Five5aDay
05-25-2007, 12:21 AM
U can say whatever u want, but do the knowledge of these verses:

[SUrah 30:32] (Do not fall in idol worship,) like those who divide their religion into sects; each party rejoicing with what they have.

[Surah 3:105] Do not be like those who became divided and disputed, despite the clear proofs that were given to them. For these have incurred a terrible retribution.


These verses describe all u factions that divide up and still call yurself muslims.

Those 2 verses above clearly condemn you and peeps like u. Show me a verse in Quran that condems me for just following QUran!

You're trying to play devilish games and I'll have none of it.

You are the one creating sects and division here because it is you and yours who have chosen to abandon the sunnah and follow your own "version" of Islaam, what do we muslims have to do with that?

What purpose did the Prophet(saw) serve then, in your opinion? A few things should be mentioned here:

A) The Qur'aan is the literal speech of Allah(swt)

B) Allah(swt) chose Muhammad(saw) as the person to receive this speech as revelation

C) The speech of Allah(swt) is eternal, he never stops speaking.

Now, being that the speech of Allah(swt) is eternal, meaning NEVERENDING, that means that it is NEVER OUTDATED....hence, when Allah(swt) commands us in his book, with his words, to OBEY THE MESSENGER, and to JUDGE according to HIS JUDGEMENTS, then that commandment is to be applied until the day of standing...it doesn't "go out of style" just because its 2007 or whatever have you....the people of knowledge of the past knew this, which is why they have kept detailed records of everything the prophet(saw) did, said, how he handled daily affairs, etc...this is the Sunnah, and this is how we learn the proper way to apply Qur'aan. Who are YOU to claim your interpretations superior to those who have dedicated their lives to this deen? And then you have the nerve to say that WE are creating sects....how shameful...

again, this goes way beyond the whole beard thing, this has to do with proper AQEEDAH, and hopefully you'll let go of such silly notions, learn a thing or two, and join your brothers at the mosque for the salaah, that is, after you learn how to offer the salaah in the first place....

Ultimate Fist
05-25-2007, 12:24 AM
You're trying to play devilish games and I'll have none of it.


Devilish? Did you pick that up from the false messenger Elijah Muhammad? For shame, super Muslim!

Edgar Erebus
05-25-2007, 01:32 AM
This whole argument ain't interesting or smart at all... It just saddens me.

Think about it. No one argued about the teachings of Qur'an... everyone argued about Sunnah. In Christianity most arguments weren't about the Holy Scripture, they were about Catechismus (just look at reason why Protestants split from Catholics) or philosophical "interpretations" of Bible (for example, "Thou shalt not kill" needs to be taken metaphorically and "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" literally, dig what I'm sayin?).

I see every religion starts to have internal beefs and disintegrate when it moves away in their teachings from the word of God, whoever that God is, and starts to have more human than divine input in it. Human is dumb, that's pretty obvious, the only that can't make a mistake is the God.

(Mis)interpretations and rituals kill the religion. Think about it.

Five5aDay
05-25-2007, 12:20 PM
Devilish? Did you pick that up from the false messenger Elijah Muhammad? For shame, super Muslim!

Do followers of Mr Elijah Muhammad have a monopoly on the words "devil," and devilish now? I think not.

I am a sunni muslim.

Come Honor Face
05-25-2007, 12:39 PM
Fuck u and yur fake islam. Yur the reason y misconceptions of islam are spreading. The filth on this forum is yu talking about how people should have beards like that really means anything. So what? A person has a beard. Are they more holy than beardless people? Your logic is idiotic.

I know alot about islam. Oh, yu studies submission.org for 8 yrs? Well, your brain is not working properly cuz you got nothing from that website.

What do you mean the conversation is over, newbie? You did not start this thread. You just come in here an intrude on the conversation. I already gave you the link to the site and yur still asking for proof! It is too bad yur brain does not function properly. Too bad for you!

You should never question one's religious beliefs!!!!!!!

diggy
05-25-2007, 12:58 PM
You're trying to play devilish games and I'll have none of it.

You are the one creating sects and division here because it is you and yours who have chosen to abandon the sunnah and follow your own "version" of Islaam, what do we muslims have to do with that?

What purpose did the Prophet(saw) serve then, in your opinion? A few things should be mentioned here:

A) The Qur'aan is the literal speech of Allah(swt)

B) Allah(swt) chose Muhammad(saw) as the person to receive this speech as revelation

C) The speech of Allah(swt) is eternal, he never stops speaking.

Now, being that the speech of Allah(swt) is eternal, meaning NEVERENDING, that means that it is NEVER OUTDATED....hence, when Allah(swt) commands us in his book, with his words, to OBEY THE MESSENGER, and to JUDGE according to HIS JUDGEMENTS, then that commandment is to be applied until the day of standing...it doesn't "go out of style" just because its 2007 or whatever have you....the people of knowledge of the past knew this, which is why they have kept detailed records of everything the prophet(saw) did, said, how he handled daily affairs, etc...this is the Sunnah, and this is how we learn the proper way to apply Qur'aan. Who are YOU to claim your interpretations superior to those who have dedicated their lives to this deen? And then you have the nerve to say that WE are creating sects....how shameful...

again, this goes way beyond the whole beard thing, this has to do with proper AQEEDAH, and hopefully you'll let go of such silly notions, learn a thing or two, and join your brothers at the mosque for the salaah, that is, after you learn how to offer the salaah in the first place....



You say I'm the one creating sects. That is a lie!!! I never told any one to follow me nor did I start a movement. I basically exposed the false nature of hadith that u and your sect abide by. According to your logic, the exposure of hadith equals starting a sect and creating divisions. WOW!! What kind of logic is that?

I'm going to test your "faith".

Hadith Quotes:
The famous Hadith about the fly: "If a fly falls into the vessel of any of you, let him dip all of it (in the vessel) and then throw it away [and use the material in the vessel], for in one of its wings there is a disease and in the other there is a healing [Bukhari, Hadith 673, pg. 452, vol 7]

You say "JUDGE according to HIS JUDGEMENTS, then that commandment is to be applied until the day of standing...it doesn't "go out of style" just because its 2007 or whatever have you...."

Well do you follow the above (hadith) "judgement until the day of standing"? If u don't your a hypocrite for saying we should follow what u sects consider the words of Muhammad PBUH. I believe they are not his words.

BUt science knows that flies transmit many diseases:

There are many bacteria and parasites that infest the fly, making flies a major factor in spreading many diseases by touching surfaces with their legs or their saliva. After walking on much excrement, flies may carry up to as many as 6 million bacterias on their feet. http://library.thinkquest.org/C0117442/html/diseases.html (http://library.thinkquest.org/C0117442/html/diseases.html)

Black flies are important vectors of various pathogens the most important of which is the filarial worm Onchocera volvulus which causes river blindness in humans.
http://www.roberth.u-net.com/blackflies.htm

If people around the world followed this bullshit, there would be too many people with diseases.

http://library.thinkquest.org/C0117442/img/myisis.jpg (http://www.ucihs.uci.edu/path/sherman/myiasis.htm)



http://library.thinkquest.org/C0117442/img/leprosy.jpg










According to the books of Hadith, a woman is compared to a black dog or a monkey (this Hadith pre-dates Darwin but it refers to women only) Bukhari 8/102 and Hanbel 4/86.

Do you also follow the above "judgement"?

The Koran on the other hand honors women and lifts up their status contrary to what is contained in the Hadith.

According to Hanbel 4/85, 5/54, the prophet ordered that all black dogs be killed because they were devils. Inspired by that Hadith so called "Muslims" kill hundreds of dogs all over the world and consider them unclean.

Is this the "judgement u follow"?

The Koran, on the other hand talks about the sleepers in the cave (sura 18) as having a dog, inside their dwelling place and allows meat killed by hunting dogs. There is nothing in the Koran, which even remotely suggests that dogs are unclean as pets. Indeed the Koran states that God has subjected animals to be of use to humankind.

The Koran states that those who forbid things even though God has allowed them, are committing a great sin. Yet you followers of Hadith have forbidden (haraam) the use of silk and gold by men, even though Allah never forbade these in the Koran. Contrary to that Allah specifically allows them (Koran 7:30-32, 42:21;22:23; 35:33).

Do u also forbid things Allah wants people to have?

Which judgement do you follow?

You seem to have conflicting beliefs. You have many books to follow. You have the hadiths and u have the Quran. But Quran says one thing and hadith says the opposite. So which book do you really abide by?

Five5aDay
05-25-2007, 02:44 PM
You say I'm the one creating sects. That is a lie!!! I never told any one to follow me nor did I start a movement. I basically exposed the false nature of hadith that u and your sect abide by. According to your logic, the exposure of hadith equals starting a sect and creating divisions. WOW!! What kind of logic is that?

I'm going to test your "faith".

Hadith Quotes:
The famous Hadith about the fly: "If a fly falls into the vessel of any of you, let him dip all of it (in the vessel) and then throw it away [and use the material in the vessel], for in one of its wings there is a disease and in the other there is a healing [Bukhari, Hadith 673, pg. 452, vol 7]

You say "JUDGE according to HIS JUDGEMENTS, then that commandment is to be applied until the day of standing...it doesn't "go out of style" just because its 2007 or whatever have you...."

Well do you follow the above (hadith) "judgement until the day of standing"? If u don't your a hypocrite for saying we should follow what u sects consider the words of Muhammad PBUH. I believe they are not his words.

BUt science knows that flies transmit many diseases:

There are many bacteria and parasites that infest the fly, making flies a major factor in spreading many diseases by touching surfaces with their legs or their saliva. After walking on much excrement, flies may carry up to as many as 6 million bacterias on their feet. http://library.thinkquest.org/C0117442/html/diseases.html (http://library.thinkquest.org/C0117442/html/diseases.html)

Black flies are important vectors of various pathogens the most important of which is the filarial worm Onchocera volvulus which causes river blindness in humans.
http://www.roberth.u-net.com/blackflies.htm

If people around the world followed this bullshit, there would be too many people with diseases.

http://library.thinkquest.org/C0117442/img/myisis.jpg (http://www.ucihs.uci.edu/path/sherman/myiasis.htm)



http://library.thinkquest.org/C0117442/img/leprosy.jpg










According to the books of Hadith, a woman is compared to a black dog or a monkey (this Hadith pre-dates Darwin but it refers to women only) Bukhari 8/102 and Hanbel 4/86.

Do you also follow the above "judgement"?

The Koran on the other hand honors women and lifts up their status contrary to what is contained in the Hadith.

According to Hanbel 4/85, 5/54, the prophet ordered that all black dogs be killed because they were devils. Inspired by that Hadith so called "Muslims" kill hundreds of dogs all over the world and consider them unclean.

Is this the "judgement u follow"?

The Koran, on the other hand talks about the sleepers in the cave (sura 18) as having a dog, inside their dwelling place and allows meat killed by hunting dogs. There is nothing in the Koran, which even remotely suggests that dogs are unclean as pets. Indeed the Koran states that God has subjected animals to be of use to humankind.

The Koran states that those who forbid things even though God has allowed them, are committing a great sin. Yet you followers of Hadith have forbidden (haraam) the use of silk and gold by men, even though Allah never forbade these in the Koran. Contrary to that Allah specifically allows them (Koran 7:30-32, 42:21;22:23; 35:33).

Do u also forbid things Allah wants people to have?

Which judgement do you follow?

You seem to have conflicting beliefs. You have many books to follow. You have the hadiths and u have the Quran. But Quran says one thing and hadith says the opposite. So which book do you really abide by?

You are advocating that muslims should abandon the sunnah, when following the sunnah has been standard practice ever since the Prophet(saw) passed away, if that isn't creating division, then what is?

and you conveniently neglected the points I made and instead chose to pick certain hadeeth which you feel you can use to your advantage to advance your position, well, you've failed miserably, once again. Yes diggy, I'm very familiar with the hadeeth about the fly, and what does that have to do with anything? what does that have to do with the validity of hadeeth? If somewhere down the line you find substantial evidence that proves that the science of hadeeth is genuine, would you be ready to accept that, or would you consider your judgements superior to those of the prophet(saw)?

As far as dogs are concerned, I challenge you to open up a biblical dictionary and look up the word dog...you'll find that the dog was considered an unclean animal not only by the Israelites, but by nearly all ancient societies. To keep dogs for purposes like hunting, or to guard the flocks is one thing, but to keep them as pets that you consider as being a part "of the family," to the point where you'll let them into your home,and treat them as well as you would your own child, kiss them on the mouth,etc. is something else entirely....please do some research....that being said, the Prophets(swt) words ring as absolutely true....

You are free to believe as you wish, but the only thing is you have absolutely no basis to discredit those who have dedicated their entire lives to the study of hadeeth, I mean, what merits do you really have to dispute with the people of knowledge? Are you that arrogant? Marijuana is not mentioned in the Qur'aan either, so does that mean we are allowed to smoke or indulge in it? Of course not...so the fact that Allah(swt) didn't mention gold or silk in the Qur'aan is irrelevant...the Prophet(saw) was the living embodiment of the revelation and thats why we use his Sunnah as a guideline with which we know how to conduct ourselves...again, the Qur'aan commands us to OBEY THE MESSENGER, does it not? Yes or no diggy?

How much of this science(of hadeeth) have you studied on your own to come to such conclusions....it seems to me like all you've done is read a few sites on the internet that made you feel good about doing whatever you want to do irrespective of the reality at hand, and so you just up and ran with it. Well, this deen doesn't work that way, sorry.

If Muhammad(saw) was the last and final messenger of Allah(swt) then what makes you think Allah(swt) would raise him up, bestow the revelation upon him, help him raise up an entire nation, and end his legacy with his death, after which we are all free to interpret the Qur'aan as we see fit? Do you see how RIDICULOUS this whole idea is? Not everybody is blessed with the same capacities, when we dont know something, we ask THOSE WHO HAVE KNOWLEDGE, and again, all this goes back to the Prophet(saw) because he is the BEST example....not YOU, ME, or the NEXT MAN....

Again you are a so-called muslim who doesn't even know how to offer the prayer, you dont feel its necessary to go to the masjid and bond with your brothers, you place no importance on jum'uah, in other words, you are an ISOLATIONIST, and that is not what this deen is about. If our religion were under attack right now, whose side would you rush to? Do you even know? Would you fight alongside the muslims, or would you fight for you and yourself only?

and then you have the NERVE to say that WE are the ones causing division...please....I'm not impressed with your less-than-elementary "knowledge" of the Qur'aan, which you are over here spelling with a "K," I mean, that alone should be enough to discredit you....it's quite laughable, really.

Who taught you your religion?

Longbongcilvaringz
05-25-2007, 02:52 PM
my question is how muslims somehow got mixed up with turbans?

CITY ZEEKER
05-25-2007, 07:29 PM
my question is how muslims somehow got mixed up with turbans?

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/nation-world/infocus/mideast/islam/turbans.html

diggy
05-25-2007, 09:08 PM
You are advocating that muslims should abandon the sunnah, when following the sunnah has been standard practice ever since the Prophet(saw) passed away, if that isn't creating division, then what is?

and you conveniently neglected the points I made and instead chose to pick certain hadeeth which you feel you can use to your advantage to advance your position, well, you've failed miserably, once again. Yes diggy, I'm very familiar with the hadeeth about the fly, and what does that have to do with anything? what does that have to do with the validity of hadeeth? If somewhere down the line you find substantial evidence that proves that the science of hadeeth is genuine, would you be ready to accept that, or would you consider your judgements superior to those of the prophet(saw)?

As far as dogs are concerned, I challenge you to open up a biblical dictionary and look up the word dog...you'll find that the dog was considered an unclean animal not only by the Israelites, but by nearly all ancient societies. To keep dogs for purposes like hunting, or to guard the flocks is one thing, but to keep them as pets that you consider as being a part "of the family," to the point where you'll let them into your home,and treat them as well as you would your own child, kiss them on the mouth,etc. is something else entirely....please do some research....that being said, the Prophets(swt) words ring as absolutely true....

You are free to believe as you wish, but the only thing is you have absolutely no basis to discredit those who have dedicated their entire lives to the study of hadeeth, I mean, what merits do you really have to dispute with the people of knowledge? Are you that arrogant? Marijuana is not mentioned in the Qur'aan either, so does that mean we are allowed to smoke or indulge in it? Of course not...so the fact that Allah(swt) didn't mention gold or silk in the Qur'aan is irrelevant...the Prophet(saw) was the living embodiment of the revelation and thats why we use his Sunnah as a guideline with which we know how to conduct ourselves...again, the Qur'aan commands us to OBEY THE MESSENGER, does it not? Yes or no diggy?

How much of this science(of hadeeth) have you studied on your own to come to such conclusions....it seems to me like all you've done is read a few sites on the internet that made you feel good about doing whatever you want to do irrespective of the reality at hand, and so you just up and ran with it. Well, this deen doesn't work that way, sorry.

If Muhammad(saw) was the last and final messenger of Allah(swt) then what makes you think Allah(swt) would raise him up, bestow the revelation upon him, help him raise up an entire nation, and end his legacy with his death, after which we are all free to interpret the Qur'aan as we see fit? Do you see how RIDICULOUS this whole idea is? Not everybody is blessed with the same capacities, when we dont know something, we ask THOSE WHO HAVE KNOWLEDGE, and again, all this goes back to the Prophet(saw) because he is the BEST example....not YOU, ME, or the NEXT MAN....

Again you are a so-called muslim who doesn't even know how to offer the prayer, you dont feel its necessary to go to the masjid and bond with your brothers, you place no importance on jum'uah, in other words, you are an ISOLATIONIST, and that is not what this deen is about. If our religion were under attack right now, whose side would you rush to? Do you even know? Would you fight alongside the muslims, or would you fight for you and yourself only?

and then you have the NERVE to say that WE are the ones causing division...please....I'm not impressed with your less-than-elementary "knowledge" of the Qur'aan, which you are over here spelling with a "K," I mean, that alone should be enough to discredit you....it's quite laughable, really.

Who taught you your religion?

Hey Five! I know u must feel so threatened by me attacking hadith. U probably feel it is yur duty to defend it! Y are you so threatend? If Hadith is fullproof, u should not be so defensive! BUt you "truth" is an illusion which I have, am and will expose! THe truth stands for itself. Many muslims, after they do the knowledge of "islam", realize you sectists ( sunni, shia, etc. ) are in the wrong.

Millions of Muslims all over the world have been brought up to believe that the collections of hadith by Bukhari and Muslim provide the authentic words and teachings of the prophet Muhammad. These two collections have been labelled 'sahih' (authentic). The majority of these hadith portray a chain of narrators in a chinese whispers fashion attributing sayings to the prophet (e.g. A said that B said that C said ....... that G said, that the prophet said). Often the chain extends to seven names or even more, yet for some reason the hadith advocates still deemed these hadith to be authentic and infallible! It is thus taken for granted that every person in the chain is totally honest and accurate in their narration. How did they come to this conclusion?

Well, the hadith advocates have devised a very simple criteria for the assesment of any hadith. To them, the validity of any hadith was dependant on the integrity of the narrator! They will tell us that hadith no 374 (for example) is a genuine hadith because the narrator has been checked for good character!!!

Bearing in mind that these narrators lived 14 centuries ago, we may inquire: who were they checked by? contemporaries of their time? hadith guru's today? or who? Needless to say, the claim to endorse the integrity of someone who lived 14 centuries ago whom we have never seen or heard of (except from the hadith books themselves) is a very naive practice to say the least!

No! bin this farcical process, this criteria should have been discarded a long time ago. It is medieval and totally unscientific. It seems absurd that the obvious criteria (and actually the only reliable one), by which to test the authenticity of any hadith was ignored!
Since the authenticity of the Quran, being the un-corrupted word of God, is not a matter of dispute to any Muslim, then it would make much better sense to assess the authenticity of any hadith by determining whether this hadith is in harmony with Quranic truth or whether in fact it is in violation of Quranic truth.

Scholars should have been checking the content of the hadith itself rather than the farcical character reference of the narrator.

It must be stressed here that testing the authenticity of any hadith is not for the purpose of approving the hadith as a source of religious law. The reader of the Quran is well aware that God sanctions the Quran to be the sole source of law (6:114). Testing the authenticity of hadith is only of historic purposes and for the benefit of those who wish to research the life of the prophet. After all, and as we shall see later, the prophet himself prohibited his people from writing or documenting his hadith, which makes the whole collection of hadith books a very dubious matter indeed.

Consequently, and if we try to apply the only logical criteria for testing the hadith (its compliance with the Quran) we are immediately faced with serious contradictions between a large number of hadith on one hand and between the Quran on the other hand. However, if we accept that the prophet of God would never have taught anything that violates or contradicts the Quran, then the only possibility would be that these 'hadith' that are attributed to the prophet are indeed lies and fabrications that the prophet is innocent of.
For a start we have two different hadith that contradict one another very clearly:
In the first hadith it is reported that the prophet said to his people shortly before his death:
"I have left you the Quran and my sunna"

Yet in another hadith the prophet commands his people quite the opposite:
"Do not write down anything of me except the Quran. Whoever writes other than that should delete it"(Ahmed, Vol. 1, page 171.....also Sahih Moslim )

Historical evidence indicates that the second of these hadith is the more genuine one. In accordance with the instructions left by the prophet as per the second hadith, we find that for the first 150 years to 200 years after the death of the prophet the writing of his hadith was prohibited. The absence of any documented hadith for two whole centuries confirms that the prophet never left his people with anything but the Quran.

We know that out of the major hadith collections authorised today, that of Al-Bukhari was the first to be written. But Al-Bukhari was born in the year 194 After Hijrah, thus for two whole centuries the believers did not have any hadith or sunna for the prophet to follow, they only had the Quran. For more details about the history of hadith please see the following

Lying, ignorance, and blind following is prevailant.