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noel411
05-16-2007, 08:02 AM
I just finished reading the old testament. I want to ask why people live by or even place any real value in this text? Even the most devout of believers in the authenticity of this text would realise that there is no definitive reason to accept that this is "the word of God", if they were realistic and honest to themselves. Which means that one would only accept such a thing by choice. And why? The old testament's "God" is almost as big an arsehole as Allah. He is overtly jealous, vengeful, demanding, judgemental, unaccepting, unfair, stubborn...the list goes on. Basically He spends at least half His time to address His people by bitching and threatening everyone.

My question is why would anybody choose to worship and put their faith in such a God? If you met somebody who possessed all those traits I listed above (which the old testament's God does, whether you admit it to yourself or not), would you have any respect for them? Would you look up to them and view them as somebody to strive to be like? Would you allow them to dictate to you how you "should" live your life and what is considered "right" and "wrong" in your own reality?

These stupid fucking "holy" books are trash. They're largely responsible for why this world is such a fucking mess and why the majority of people are such braindead nitwits who have abandoned basic logic, common sense and individuality. And I'm not just talking about those who strictly adhere to their teachings. These books have so vastly effected the widespread conduct of societies, and people's ways of thinking, differentiating between "right" and "wrong" etc. They are basically somebody else's guide for living, for people who don't want to think for themselves.

Anyway, I'm not saying anything here that surely hasn't been said before. I did ask a question earlier in this post. Please answer it if it is applicable to you.

SID
05-16-2007, 10:02 AM
first off i agree the bible has reached the point of such corruption and interference that is is no longer divine and is full of scientific errors and contridictions. You say he is a bigger asshole then allah, now when you want to bring islam into the equation i expect you must know what you are talking about? but i doubt you do, just another one of the sheepish masses fed "hate" and predjudice by your so called "government", if you have ever took a second to read ANY islamic text or books by muslims you would see your conceptions are gravely misguided.

terrorists ARE NOT MUSLIMS, the taliban ARE NOT MUSLIMS, they are all just people using the beautiful religon as a cover for there more sinister purpose which i will not even delve into. Islam does not discriminate women, but glorifys them, it dosent segregate race or religon but unites them, it does not oppress the weak or poor, but raises them out of there misery.
the qu,ran has scientific statements which have baffeled many leading scientists on how it could have been known all those years ago, it has many many prophecies which have come to pass, (the biggest one being 9/11 and the power of america), and treats the whole of humankind as a brotherhood....exactly what we need in the world of today, where evil greedy men destroy our world and use religon as a scapegoat, but by the glory of god they have not suceeded, islam is the fastest growing religon in the world, and its growing very rapidly in america (the land of the men who have tried to destroy it)

so before you brand the creator of mankind who has built such a unimaginable living system, an arsehole i suggest you seek out the truth before you talk


peace

THE W
05-16-2007, 10:33 AM
i dont see how god is such an asshole. he offered his people israel a promised land and they disobeyed every single rule he made for them over and over again. what was he supposed to do, enable them and give them what they wanted while they maintained total disobedience to him?

people disobeyed and God punished. i dont see the problem. i hope when(or if) you guys have children you dont let them shit all over your authority, run wild, and never give them any life structure or discipline.

SID
05-16-2007, 11:13 AM
i dont see how god is such an asshole. he offered his people israel a promised land and they disobeyed every single rule he made for them over and over again. what was he supposed to do, enable them and give them what they wanted while they maintained total disobedience to him?
.

WORD

Imperial1
05-16-2007, 01:09 PM
If Allah/God was an asshole, he would've wiped the very existance of life away a long time ago.

Imperial1

diggy
05-16-2007, 05:37 PM
Hey noel, what is wrong with people like u?

U wanna blame religion 4 all wars.

I hear this argument all the time from god-hating, anti-religious, wasted cum in the brain fucks like u.

This statement of yours is not proven you illiterate shit stain.

People like the taliban might say they are a part of a religion, but if u look at their actions, it is the opposite of the teachings they pretend to follow.

But cum-brains like u do not see the difference. U only focus on the fact that these people claim to be religious, and u fail to use yur brain to know that these people r hypocrites and liars.

It too bad u don't know how to use yur brain; u just repeat an argument some thoughtless fool made.

CITY ZEEKER
05-16-2007, 06:10 PM
first of all, dnt ever say shit like ALLAH is an asshole, stuff like tht the only reason u say shit like tht cause u dnt have a strong or any belief in ur religion.. ur comparing ur religion to other religions, let me tell u this homeboy its not all the same.. christianity has so many sects and i dnt know how many bibles its hard to count. the corruption led to the new testament, christians should have a strong belief tht the old testament is WORD BY GOD, u dnt need to add anything on to tht. AS FOR ME THE HOLY QURAN IS MY LIFE I LIVE BY IT AND ABIDE BY IT, COMMENTS COMPARING ISLAM TO ANYOTHER RELIGION IS OUTRAGEOUS, IF FOOLS REALLY WANNA KNO WATS GOIN ON READ THE QURAN, DONT READ THE BIBLE OR TORAH AN COMPARE. THE QURAN DOESNT ISSUE NEW PROBLEMS IN THE WORLD TODAY, IT IS WAT IT IS...

SO IF U GOT A PROBLEM WIT UR RELIGION AN U HAVE A PROBLEM WITH GOD BEING UR CREATOR BLAME IT COMPARE IT MAKE STUPID REMARKS ON UR OWN RELIGION NOT ON OTHERS ESPECIALLY ISLAM.

noel411
05-16-2007, 06:30 PM
You say he is a bigger asshole then allah, now when you want to bring islam into the equation i expect you must know what you are talking about? but i doubt you do, just another one of the sheepish masses fed "hate" and predjudice by your so called "government", if you have ever took a second to read ANY islamic text or books by muslims you would see your conceptions are gravely misguided.

terrorists ARE NOT MUSLIMS, the taliban ARE NOT MUSLIMS
I made that comment because I have read the Quran. It has nothing to do with any terrorist bullshit or whatever. I don’t go for that bullshit. It is due to Allah’s overtly demanding nature, and His constant threatening of people who don’t adhere to His rules. Same shit as the old testament’s God, only on an even larger scale.

It’s funny, because whenever I speak of Islam in a negative manner people cry about how I shouldn’t believe the shit the media say about it, and I have actually been involved in heated arguments several times where I was DEFENDING Islam against people who buy into all that bullshit. I dislike Islam immensely, as do I almost all religions, but I will still defend them where I feel people are taking them out of context.

i dont see how god is such an asshole. he offered his people israel a promised land and they disobeyed every single rule he made for them over and over again. what was he supposed to do, enable them and give them what they wanted while they maintained total disobedience to him?

people disobeyed and God punished. i dont see the problem
The type of God I would consider worthy of worship would not require ANYTHING from me, let alone punish me for breaking His “rules”.

Diggy, you defeated yourself with your own post. I’m guessing you’re probably an adherent to one religion or another, and are very insecure about your “beliefs”. I have found in the past that no matter how harshly I speak on a religion, the true believers and those with real faith respond to me in a calm manner, unaffected by my opinions, as one should expect they would.

CITY ZEEKER
05-16-2007, 06:54 PM
[quote=noel411;811599]

The type of God I would consider worthy of worship would not require ANYTHING from me, let alone punish me for breaking His “rules”.

so wat do u think we were put on this earth for? wilding out like monkeys in the world? breaking rules being barbaric?.. yo god put on this planet so he can test us... in christianity its basically summarizing YO FUCK UP ALL U WANT BUT DONT COMMIT MURDER THO BUT DNT WORRY CAUSE IN THE END JESUS HAS ALREDY SUFFERED FOR UR SINS???? R U KIDDING ME??? ISLAM PUTS U TO THE TEST BROTHER, IF U DONT FOLLOW ITS UR LOSS CAUSE IN THE END WELL ALL FIND OUT WHO THE PROPHET AND ALLAH IS... IF U WANT A RELIGION THT DOESNT GIVE A FUCK THAN JOIN THE ATHEIST CREW SO ALL U CAN DO IS CRITICIZE RELIGIONS IN GENERAL, THERS NO POINT COMPARING GODS WORD WITH UR VIEWS, THTS AN ATHIESTS JOB..

noel411
05-16-2007, 07:06 PM
Chronik, you have no idea where I'm coming from and probably never will. I respect your choice to adhere to Islam and you should afford me the same respect for my choice not to.

I'd also like to apologise for the “arsehole” comment. That was most disrespectful to those who worship either Allah or the old testament’s God. These books bother me greatly. I got a little carried away is all.

THE W
05-16-2007, 07:08 PM
The type of God I would consider worthy of worship would not require ANYTHING from me, let alone punish me for breaking His “rules”.

when you were young and living in your parents house what did they do to you when you disobeyed them?

RAMESH
05-16-2007, 07:35 PM
you must still read the new testiment my memory of the bible is very vage i only know the childrens bible but i still remember some important things
if you are trully sorry for what you done god can see your heart he will forgive you he will always forgive you
his son sacrificed for our sins does not mean we can take advantage but jesus knows what we are gowing through
it's good to talk to god so that he can understand you

Ultimate Fist
05-16-2007, 09:20 PM
first of all, dnt ever say shit like ALLAH is an asshole... AS FOR ME THE HOLY QURAN IS MY LIFE I LIVE BY IT AND ABIDE BY IT, COMMENTS COMPARING ISLAM TO ANYOTHER RELIGION IS OUTRAGEOUS, IF FOOLS REALLY WANNA KNO WATS GOIN ON READ THE QURAN, DONT READ THE BIBLE OR TORAH AN COMPARE. THE QURAN DOESNT ISSUE NEW PROBLEMS IN THE WORLD TODAY, IT IS WAT IT IS...

SO IF U GOT A PROBLEM WIT UR RELIGION AN U HAVE A PROBLEM WITH GOD BEING UR CREATOR BLAME IT COMPARE IT MAKE STUPID REMARKS ON UR OWN RELIGION NOT ON OTHERS ESPECIALLY ISLAM.

Dirka dirka jihad?

I'm so tired of this shit. Declare a fatwa already. You don't want him to compare religions then go fuck yourself because that's his right. Espcially since he said his God is a bigger asshole than Allah. Not a compliment to Allah but he certainly isn't attacking Islam if he says his religion is worse.

I hope you fucks all nuke each other. That's what I pray for. May the USA nuke the middle east and kill all the muslims, may Iran respond by nuking Israel and that will end it all. It sounds horrible but when it eventually happens it will be for the better. Future generations won't have to put up with crusades and jihads over that shitty desert penisula. With no Jerusalem, the Jews and the Christians will realize their prophecies are impossible to fufill and give up this bullshit. I'm not as familiar with Islamic eschatology but once you all nuke each other Mecca will be gone and there will be nowhere for you to pilgrimage to. That will be enough to weaken your religion.

Don't say I'm brainwashed by an ideology like the fucking apologists you are. I began feeling this way reading the shit you sick fucks say right here and on YouTube and on religious sites- Christian, Jewish and Muslim.

noel411
05-16-2007, 09:52 PM
when you were young and living in your parents house what did they do to you when you disobeyed them?
This is an obvious point, Wade, and I figured somebody would probably make it. When we are growing we need guidance to develop into an adult. This guidance generally comes from our parents or other adults with life experience. Once our mind has developed to a mature state we have the freedom to decide for ourselves what is “right” and what is “wrong”, and suffer the consequences of going against our own values. The problem is that most people take other people’s values as their own, restricting or even dismissing their freedom to think for themselves, and create their own reality.

Everything is relative. There is no such thing as “right” or “wrong”, and there is nothing you “should” do, or are required to do. Holy books would have you think otherwise. They tell you what you can, can’t and should do. If you explore your own self you can see how unjust this is.

Here’s my life advice…When determining an opinion or perception of something, dismiss everything you have ever read or been told, and pretend you have just appeared on Earth with a blank mind. Yes, let’s all laugh at noel the crazy hippy, but fuck it, people need to start thinking for themselves. There’s too many fucking mindless drones out there.

noel411
05-16-2007, 10:06 PM
you must still read the new testiment
I'm reading it at the moment.

Haha, nice post Ultimate Fist.

diggy
05-16-2007, 10:27 PM
Noel, your a hate-monger and an illiterate asshole. You have a problem with God? Then kill yourself so u can meet God, and discuss yur problems with God.

U should really have a problem with certain people not god. God does not start wars, people do. It is because of illiterate fucks like u who disrespect ohters beliefs y wars are fought.

U act like u read the holy books. Its just too bad that the only message u got from it is negativity. U have hatred inside of u, so u saw what u wanted to see, which is hate and ignorance and a lack of understanding.

It just too bad u read holy scriptures and finished with a warped misunderstanding. I think yur one of the blind, deaf and dumb.

Yur blind cuz u don't see the obvious good message in the scriptures.
Yur deaf cuz u turn away from the message.
And yur dumb cuz all u get out of it is stupidity upon more stupidity.

CITY ZEEKER
05-16-2007, 10:38 PM
Dirka dirka jihad?

I'm so tired of this shit. Declare a fatwa already. You don't want him to compare religions then go fuck yourself because that's his right. Espcially since he said his God is a bigger asshole than Allah. Not a compliment to Allah but he certainly isn't attacking Islam if he says his religion is worse.

I hope you fucks all nuke each other. That's what I pray for. May the USA nuke the middle east and kill all the muslims, may Iran respond by nuking Israel and that will end it all. It sounds horrible but when it eventually happens it will be for the better. Future generations won't have to put up with crusades and jihads over that shitty desert penisula. With no Jerusalem, the Jews and the Christians will realize their prophecies are impossible to fufill and give up this bullshit. I'm not as familiar with Islamic eschatology but once you all nuke each other Mecca will be gone and there will be nowhere for you to pilgrimage to. That will be enough to weaken your religion.

Don't say I'm brainwashed by an ideology like the fucking apologists you are. I began feeling this way reading the shit you sick fucks say right here and on YouTube and on religious sites- Christian, Jewish and Muslim.

the fuck u talkin bout im telling him not to compare, read ya shit over homeboy i sed "COMMENTS COMPARING ISLAM TO ANYOTHER RELIGION IS OUTRAGEOUS, IF FOOLS REALLY WANNA KNO WATS GOIN ON READ THE QURAN, DONT READ THE BIBLE OR TORAH AN COMPARE"


ur a stupid motherfucker, all u non believers of islam HAVE NO FAITH ON UR RELIGIONS, u dont kno bout nothing bout islam so why u talkin? have u read the holy quran? have u spoken to religious believrs, have u spoken to scholars? the fuck do u kno bout mecca? PROVE IT TO ME SON, DO U KNO 1 MUSLIM WHO CONVERTED FROM ISLAM TO ANOTHER RELIGION? ANSWER IS NO, WE HAVE STRONG BELIEF OVER OUR RELIGION AN WE DNT DARE SAY FUCK GOD FUCK HIS WORD, LETS WRITE A NEW QURAN INSTED I TRY TO TEACH U IDIOTS SOME SCIENCE SO U CAN GET IT THRU UR MSNBC CHRISTIAN ATHEIST, DONT BELIEVE IN JESUS SO I DNT BELIEVE IN ANY OTHER RELIGION SORRY ASS. U FOOLS ARE IDIOTS, AN BEST BELIEVE HOMEBOY I AINT NO EXTREMIST BUT I SPEAK FOR MY RELIGION TO DUMBASS FOOLS WHO VIEW ATHIEST NEGATIVITY TOWARDS RELGION.. SAME GOES FOR ZIONIST HEDS

CITY ZEEKER
05-16-2007, 10:42 PM
I'm reading it at the moment.

Haha, nice post Ultimate Fist.

an the fuck u laughin for tryna apologize about "arsehole" comment??? u just happy now u got tht other fool tryna help ur atheistic views



Noel, your a hate-monger and an illiterate asshole. You have a problem with God? Then kill yourself so u can meet God, and discuss yur problems with God.

U should really have a problem with certain people not god. God does not start wars, people do. It is because of illiterate fucks like u who disrespect ohters beliefs y wars are fought.

U act like u read the holy books. Its just too bad that the only message u got from it is negativity. U have hatred inside of u, so u saw what u wanted to see, which is hate and ignorance and a lack of understanding.

It just too bad u read holy scriptures and finished with a warped misunderstanding. I think yur one of the blind, deaf and dumb.

Yur blind cuz u don't see the obvious good message in the scriptures.
Yur deaf cuz u turn away from the message.
And yur dumb cuz all u get out of it is stupidity upon more stupidity.

word up i feel the same thing for all these sorry ass fools

Ultimate Fist
05-16-2007, 11:39 PM
the fuck u talkin bout im telling him not to compare, read ya shit over homeboy i sed "COMMENTS COMPARING ISLAM TO ANYOTHER RELIGION IS OUTRAGEOUS, IF FOOLS REALLY WANNA KNO WATS GOIN ON READ THE QURAN, DONT READ THE BIBLE OR TORAH AN COMPARE"


ur a stupid motherfucker, all u non believers of islam HAVE NO FAITH ON UR RELIGIONS, u dont kno bout nothing bout islam so why u talkin? have u read the holy quran? have u spoken to religious believrs, have u spoken to scholars? the fuck do u kno bout mecca? PROVE IT TO ME SON, DO U KNO 1 MUSLIM WHO CONVERTED FROM ISLAM TO ANOTHER RELIGION? ANSWER IS NO, WE HAVE STRONG BELIEF OVER OUR RELIGION AN WE DNT DARE SAY FUCK GOD FUCK HIS WORD, LETS WRITE A NEW QURAN INSTED I TRY TO TEACH U IDIOTS SOME SCIENCE SO U CAN GET IT THRU UR MSNBC CHRISTIAN ATHEIST, DONT BELIEVE IN JESUS SO I DNT BELIEVE IN ANY OTHER RELIGION SORRY ASS. U FOOLS ARE IDIOTS, AN BEST BELIEVE HOMEBOY I AINT NO EXTREMIST BUT I SPEAK FOR MY RELIGION TO DUMBASS FOOLS WHO VIEW ATHIEST NEGATIVITY TOWARDS RELGION.. SAME GOES FOR ZIONIST HEDS

Caps locks helps you make your point... as does poor grammar.

I read the Koran once and I didn't think much of it. I tried to convert to Islam anyway because I was on a Malcolm X kick but ultimately was turned off by the serious theological holes in it's teachings. And as far as Muslims converting to another religion, I know one personally. He's from Lebanon and his ass almost got killed for turning to Lebanese Christianity. He's not the only one either...

Muslim converts to Christianity
(many whom almost got killed- I wonder why there aren't more converts to other religions...)
http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=7000&eng=y
And a ton right here...
http://www.persecution.org/suffering/index.php
Abdul Rahman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Rahman_%28convert%29
Walid Shoebat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walid_Shoebat

Ex-muslim now atheist- huge critic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Warraq

The entire founding members of the Bahai faith were Muslims.

List of former muslims
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Former_Muslims


Now we can argue over whether Islam is tolerant to other faiths in design but in practice, it sure as hell ain't AND THAT'S WHY FEW CONVERT TO OTHER RELIGIONS.

noel411
05-16-2007, 11:53 PM
Diggy and Chronik, don’t you see how negatively you are portraying your people here? I have nothing against religious people and never said I did, and now you guys come into this thread throwing all sorts of insults at me and telling me I should interpret a book a certain way because that’s how you were taught to interpret it. That’s the problem with people. My interpretation is every bit as valid as anybody else’s, and the fact that you can’t comprehend that gives me no room to explain myself to people like you.

As for laughing at Fist’s post, yeah, it was funny to me. And yeah, I do apologise for my “arsehole” comment. Why? Because I’m not proud of myself for saying such a disrespectful comment, even though I could say much, much worse if I didn’t mind offending people for no good reason. This doesn’t mean I can’t laugh at somebody else’s words though.

And I am in no way an atheist and never said anything to indicate or even suggest that I am. People don’t even know what a fucking atheist is. I’m really growing to hate that term due to its gross misuse. Moreso by stupid little fucks who claim to be atheists without even realising what it means.

CITY ZEEKER
05-17-2007, 12:35 AM
Caps locks helps you make your point... as does poor grammar.

I read the Koran once and I didn't think much of it. I tried to convert to Islam anyway because I was on a Malcolm X kick but ultimately was turned off by the serious theological holes in it's teachings. And as far as Muslims converting to another religion, I know one personally. He's from Lebanon and his ass almost got killed for turning to Lebanese Christianity. He's not the only one either...

Muslim converts to Christianity
(many whom almost got killed- I wonder why there aren't more converts to other religions...)
http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=7000&eng=y
And a ton right here...
http://www.persecution.org/suffering/index.php
Abdul Rahman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Rahman_%28convert%29
Walid Shoebat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walid_Shoebat

Ex-muslim now atheist- huge critic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Warraq

The entire founding members of the Bahai faith were Muslims.

List of former muslims
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Former_Muslims


Now we can argue over whether Islam is tolerant to other faiths in design but in practice, it sure as hell ain't AND THAT'S WHY FEW CONVERT TO OTHER RELIGIONS.


i wish i could just clap in ur face to give u the bravo u deserve WHA WHA!!! ur right man about the grammar thing i forgot this was english 101 and not a wutang site ur right.

so u tried to convert it didnt happen so now ur tryna talk against islam is tht wat ur intending to do? great read with the converters man next time up me with some more sects like the ahmadis, and the shias, u did a great job with the bahai's a majority of the people who converted are bahais and persians, who are mostly made up of shias right right, great job tho

ur right islam isnt a tolerant religion thts why wen the crusades occured barbarians (non christian believers) were to be killed if they werent christian, ur right bro same thing wen persians tried to take over western and eastern europe they let people keep their religions right... people who convert from islam to another religion arent killed by real muslims, u talkng bout extrimism right there buddy, egypt, lebanon, iran, and iraq are the places u will get killed.. other than tht u wont get killed but pretty sure will get ex communicated. u think just cause a couple heds converted to another religions millions of muslims are just dying to convert but are scared to??? hahaha ur right buddy

CITY ZEEKER
05-17-2007, 12:39 AM
Diggy and Chronik, don’t you see how negatively you are portraying your people here? I have nothing against religious people and never said I did, and now you guys come into this thread throwing all sorts of insults at me and telling me I should interpret a book a certain way because that’s how you were taught to interpret it. That’s the problem with people. My interpretation is every bit as valid as anybody else’s, and the fact that you can’t comprehend that gives me no room to explain myself to people like you.

As for laughing at Fist’s post, yeah, it was funny to me. And yeah, I do apologise for my “arsehole” comment. Why? Because I’m not proud of myself for saying such a disrespectful comment, even though I could say much, much worse if I didn’t mind offending people for no good reason. This doesn’t mean I can’t laugh at somebody else’s words though.

And I am in no way an atheist and never said anything to indicate or even suggest that I am. People don’t even know what a fucking atheist is. I’m really growing to hate that term due to its gross misuse. Moreso by stupid little fucks who claim to be atheists without even realising what it means.

neither did i say u have somethng against religious people, u got me heated with the comment bout ALLAH which i dont take lightly, pretty sure if this shit was sed face to face a whole different situation would occur. i got affended the same way ur gettng affending wen i mentioned atheist..

this thread would have stayed in peace if it talked bout ur religion and the problems tht u have with it but if u drag another one along, yo u best be redy for some arguments

Ultimate Fist
05-17-2007, 12:41 AM
i wish i could just clap in ur face to give u the bravo u deserve WHA WHA!!! ur right man about the grammar thing i forgot this was english 101 and not a wutang site ur right.

so u tried to convert it didnt happen so now ur tryna talk against islam is tht wat ur intending to do? great read with the converters man next time up me with some more sects like the ahmadis, and the shias, u did a great job with the bahai's a majority of the people who converted are bahais and persians, who are mostly made up of shias right right, great job tho

ur right islam isnt a tolerant religion thts why wen the crusades occured barbarians (non christian believers) were to be killed if they werent christian, ur right bro same thing wen persians tried to take over western and eastern europe they let people keep their religions right... people who convert from islam to another religion arent killed by real muslims, u talkng bout extrimism right there buddy, egypt, lebanon, iran, and iraq are the places u will get killed.. other than tht u wont get killed but pretty sure will get ex communicated. u think just cause a couple heds converted to another religions millions of muslims are just dying to convert but are scared to??? hahaha ur right buddy

Are you saying shias aren't muslims? Believe me, you need to go back to grammar school. You're very hard to follow.

I love this, argue from Christian intolerance... I already told you all three religions judaism christianity and islam seem like bullshit to me. Islam is just Christianity with everything scrambled around and an extra prophet. Kinda like Mormons.

And look up "True Scotsman" for why the "real muslim" bullshit doesn't work.

And if Islam's so great, why are relatively few Christians and Jews converting to it? You prove nothing. Most people keep their faith until the day they die. It doesn't make it sound or rational.

diggy
05-17-2007, 12:57 AM
Diggy and Chronik, don’t you see how negatively you are portraying your people here?

My people? U don't know who da fucck my people are. My people are not shias, sunnis, etc. I don't believe in religion, ignoramus.

Ultamate you've stated "And if Islam's so great, why are relatively few Christians and Jews converting to it? You prove nothing. Most people keep their faith until the day they die. It doesn't make it sound or rational."

First of all, I personally know many christians I went to school with who became muslims. Christians, especially black ones, are converting like it was going out of style. You don't know shit.

To be muslim, u don't have to register yourself, so how much of the new muslim converts are increasing is not recorded. But believe me, even after 911 it is alot of muslim converts.

Ultimate Fist
05-17-2007, 01:03 AM
My people? U don't know who da fucck my people are. My people are not shias, sunnis, etc. I don't believe in religion, ignoramus.

Ultamate you've stated "And if Islam's so great, why are relatively few Christians and Jews converting to it? You prove nothing. Most people keep their faith until the day they die. It doesn't make it sound or rational."

First of all, I personally know many christians I went to school with who became muslims. Christians, especially black ones, are converting like it was going out of style. You don't know shit.

To be muslim, u don't have to register yourself, so how much of the new muslim converts are increasing is not recorded. But believe me, even after 911 it is alot of muslim converts.

I don't know shit? Sound words considering members of your own religion consider you ignorant on it.

Note in my statement the word RELATIVELY. Yeah, they can get a lot in the black community which is now linked to Islam through Malcolm X but I don't see the suburbs running to Islam in flocks nor anyone else.

diggy
05-17-2007, 01:08 AM
like i said, illliterate, I don't hav a religion. 2nd, religion is mainly composed up the humble people who usually r the poor, outcast, the marginalized, etc. That is y u don't see the 'burb mother fuckers flocking to it. Comprede?

Ultimate Fist
05-17-2007, 01:11 AM
like i said, illliterate, I don't hav a religion. 2nd, religion is mainly composed up the humble people who usually r the poor, outcast, the marginalized, etc. That is y u don't see the 'burb mother fuckers flocking to it. Comprede?

Illeterate is spelled with 3 Ls. Composed up the humble people?

LOL. I'm illiterate.


Yeah, and the poor fuckers are religious scholars who research the facts. Right...

diggy
05-17-2007, 01:13 AM
I was typing w/ one hand and eating powdery chps with the other,; I don't wanna dirty my keyboard so FUCK U!!!

Ultimate Fist
05-17-2007, 01:14 AM
http://www.impawards.com/2006/posters/looking_for_comedy_in_the_muslim_world.jpg

Ultimate Fist
05-17-2007, 01:16 AM
Yes, whether you're a 5%er with a "way of life" or a Christian who has a "personal relationship with Jesus" or a Muslim who isn't a Muslim, religious people with no religion are the craziest of them all!

diggy
05-17-2007, 01:16 AM
I don't know what that pic is, so I'm not gonna click it, faggot-brain cumstain.

CITY ZEEKER
05-17-2007, 01:16 AM
I was typing w/ one hand and eating powdery chps with the other,; I don't wanna dirty my keyboard so FUCK U!!!

fuck this shit cousin, these fools are over the internet scholars u kno, dont even waste tryna argue wit these fools, IN THE END THEYLL ALL KNO WHO THE PROPHET AND GOD IS, as for now let em believe wat they want, and dnt trip bet u half of shit being sed in this thread wouldnt slip out of a kafirs mouth, the motherfucker must be crazy to get there asses fucked up.. peace to all the ignorant sons of bitches up in this piece may god have mercy on ur souls...

Ultimate Fist
05-17-2007, 01:18 AM
fuck this shit cousin, these fools are over the internet scholars u kno, dont even waste tryna argue wit these fools, IN THE END THEYLL ALL KNO WHO THE PROPHET AND GOD IS, as for now let em believe wat they want, and dnt trip bet u half of shit being sed in this thread wouldnt slip out of a kafirs mouth, the motherfucker must be crazy to get there asses fucked up.. peace to all the ignorant sons of bitches up in this piece may god have mercy on ur souls...

And may JEEZ-USS save you from Muslim heathenry and the flames of Hell! HALLELUJAH!

diggy
05-17-2007, 01:18 AM
Yes, whether you're a 5%er with a "way of life" or a Christian who has a "personal relationship with Jesus" or a Muslim who isn't a Muslim, religious people with no religion are the craziest of them all!


It is so sad yur brain does not understand. I'm not gonna play yur game.Religion is for peeps 2 lazy 2 think 4 themselves. I use my brain 2 plot myself thru life.

diggy
05-17-2007, 01:23 AM
Hey Ultimate. Y ru so hateful of religion anyway?

Did u get yur anus stretched by a catholic priest?

Daily blow jobs from a nun with dentures?

Are u gay and realize religion won't accept yur abominable soul?

Are u transgendered with both male & female genitals?

Its ok.

I understand.

Ultimate Fist
05-17-2007, 01:25 AM
Damn, I feel like eD up in this bitch!

Hey, chronik, you can still get out of Hell! HALLELUJAH! MAY JEHOVAH GUIDE YOU TO THE LIGHT!!! LAWLS
http://www.muslimministry.com/

Ultimate Fist
05-17-2007, 01:27 AM
Hey Ultimate. Y ru so hateful of religion anyway?

Did u get yur anus stretched by a catholic priest?

Daily blow jobs from a nun with dentures?

Are u gay and realize religion won't accept yur abominable soul?

Are u transgendered with both male & female genitals?

Its ok.

I understand.

Nah...but i heard your white devil daddy raped your mama and gave her and you HIV...

diggy
05-17-2007, 01:29 AM
Ultimate, It's really sad u got yur anus stretched without yur permission. But I'm sure there is some kind of surgery for u to get it sown closed. It must attract flies from being open all the time. Does every room u go into smell like shit as a result of yur anus not being able to close? Well, diapers for now. Catch u later.

Ultimate Fist
05-17-2007, 01:31 AM
LOL... insults, insults, insults... you sure showed me how smart you are...

Ultimate Fist
05-17-2007, 01:32 AM
Reply faster... I thought you said you were done...

diggy
05-17-2007, 01:33 AM
Are u called Ultimate Fist cuz of yur technique on yur mom. Fisting is not suppose to be done, especially in yur mom's pussy. Don't follow the pedifile who raped u by commiting acts of gross sexual indecency. Have some respect for ur mom.

Try self fisting. You might enjoy it, since yur anus is already stretched.

Ultimate Fist
05-17-2007, 01:34 AM
You know from your own experience?

Insults don't work if you suck at them.

Ultimate Fist
05-17-2007, 01:35 AM
Are you logged for real now? Or are you going to come back with another sucky insult in 5 minutes?

JEBUS LOVES YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!

noel411
05-17-2007, 01:36 AM
this thread would have stayed in peace if it talked bout ur religion and the problems tht u have with it but if u drag another one along, yo u best be redy for some arguments
I don’t adhere to a religion. I would have thought that was pretty obvious. I understand you getting heated over the “arsehole” comment though. I did apologise.
My people? U don't know who da fucck my people are. My people are not shias, sunnis, etc. I don't believe in religion, ignoramus.
No problem. That just means you are portraying yourself alone in a very negative way. Same thing, less people. But please do continue to insult my intelligence while continually calling me names. It’s highly entertaining.

diggy
05-17-2007, 01:49 AM
Lets drop this. Its going nowhere. Ok

Ultimate Fist
05-17-2007, 01:53 AM
If you really want to, fine. I was just pulling your leg by the end of this. But seriously, work on your insults. Everything is anus and cumstain.

diggy
05-17-2007, 01:55 AM
Lol

SID
05-17-2007, 02:47 AM
damnn a lots been said overnight on this matter.....

anyway, first off iam not even going to bother quote posts, read my first one. Okay i read that fist thought chronik and diggy were not reppin there religon in a good way, i agree REAL muslims don not act like that, we are civil tolerant people, and if fist ever went to the middle east(but i doubt he will cuz he wants us all to nuke each other, which i thought was a very heartless thing to say) He would see how normal muslim man women and children live there lives, your talkin about fatwas and that were untolerent of other religons, which is the most garbage i have heard all week, if you rely on wikipedia so greatly how about typing the converts to islam?. You are misguided friend as is noel, you said you read the qu,ran, if you did uou would know he does not ask for anything unjust but he is the most mercifull ,most kind, we are NOT intolerent of other religons, in the qu, ran it calls the three abrahamic religons "the people of the book" so how can we be against our brother -religons, used just listen or view the actions of a warped minority and brand that what islam is all about, you have got it wrong. As i was saying if you walk in the streets of arabia no matter your colour or deen (religon) you will get more love then you will ever get in the western countries, the STANDARD greeting is a hand shake, and peace be upon you, you dont need cars jus hitch a ride with ANYONE and proberly end up having dinner with them, these are the realities of islam but i understand the ludacris views lof fist and noel are a product of your ennviroment. I just hope you actively search for the truth next time you brand al-islam whatever you called it


PEACE

maestro wooz
05-17-2007, 03:08 AM
theyre good stories that can teach you alot, i dont understand why people have to make more out of them than that.

noel411
05-17-2007, 04:13 AM
You are misguided friend as is noel, you said you read the qu,ran, if you did uou would know he does not ask for anything unjust but he is the most mercifull ,most kind
these are the realities of islam but i understand the ludacris views lof fist and noel are a product of your ennviroment
Can we just take it back to my first post here? This thread has nothing to do with Islam. I made one comment about Allah being unpleasant. Yes I have read the Quran and I am not the least bit phased whether you believe me or not. You are acting as if I've said muslims are a bunch of savages who kill everyone or something, when in fact I didn't say a fucking thing about muslims, positive or negative. Why do I detest the Quran so? Because of the restrictions Allah places on people. Because of the threats He makes against people who don't follow his rules. Because of Allah's repeated demands to have everybody kiss his arse....and so on. It's got nothing to do with violence. It's got nothing to do with interacting with followers of other religions.

When it comes down to it, by far my biggest problem with religions is the restrictions it places on people, the robbing of people's freedom to do as they please, the dictating of what is "right" and what is "wrong". Look at muslim females for example, who think there is a God who requires them to cover every square inch of their flesh, and will judge and punish them if they don't. That's utterly absurd.

I don't give a fuck about terrorists or wars or any of that bullshit. Humans are fucken idiots. They're gonna fight each other and slaughter each other with or without religions to use as an excuse. What bothers me is people thinking there is a God who requires them to live a certain way, and follow certain rules, or otherwise face the harsh punishments of a judgemental and vengeful God. That does a HELL OF A LOT more damage to humankind than any fucking war or terrorist attack. It always has and it probably always will.

Longbongcilvaringz
05-17-2007, 04:22 AM
you really shouldnt have started this thread here, people here have no religious rationality.

if such a thing exists.

the majority of christains never read their "sacred" texts and those who do generally take them in a literal sense. you ask some of these people questions such as "who wrote the old testament?" etc. and they dont have answers but then still take such things as inherently truthful.

also ask a religious person why they believe in their chosen religion, and they will have immense trouble telling you, ask a non religious person to justify their position and they will be able to defend and explain their view point 9 times out of 10. this is because non religious people usually actually put thought into what they believe, instead of believing something because their family do or their community does etc. also notice how religious people like to dub atheists as "stupid", its a reoccurring trend on this forum i find.

people who take the old testament as truthful or take it literally need to examine their perception of reality.

ah yeah, and noel you said you dont like the way the term "atheist" is interpreted, what does it mean to you then?

Golden_Armz
05-17-2007, 06:47 AM
salaam


terrorists ARE NOT MUSLIMS, the taliban ARE NOT MUSLIMS,


what gives you the right to say they arent muslims?

bro its funny you talk about government brainwashing, when it seems you have been affected by this in your view about them. I dont agree with alot of their approaches, but i wont go so far as to call them non-muslims.

i actually heard some stories about them from a british muslim lawyer who spent time with them, and it changed my view on them.


salaam

p.s and Noel if you approach holy texts with an unclean heart, an unfocused mind, and bad intentions, you wont get anything good back!

Golden_Armz
05-17-2007, 06:51 AM
Dirka dirka jihad?

I'm so tired of this shit. Declare a fatwa already. You don't want him to compare religions then go fuck yourself because that's his right. Espcially since he said his God is a bigger asshole than Allah. Not a compliment to Allah but he certainly isn't attacking Islam if he says his religion is worse.

I hope you fucks all nuke each other. That's what I pray for. May the USA nuke the middle east and kill all the muslims, may Iran respond by nuking Israel and that will end it all. It sounds horrible but when it eventually happens it will be for the better. Future generations won't have to put up with crusades and jihads over that shitty desert penisula. With no Jerusalem, the Jews and the Christians will realize their prophecies are impossible to fufill and give up this bullshit. I'm not as familiar with Islamic eschatology but once you all nuke each other Mecca will be gone and there will be nowhere for you to pilgrimage to. That will be enough to weaken your religion.

Don't say I'm brainwashed by an ideology like the fucking apologists you are. I began feeling this way reading the shit you sick fucks say right here and on YouTube and on religious sites- Christian, Jewish and Muslim.

damn what happened to u son?

keep taking that medication

Golden_Armz
05-17-2007, 07:02 AM
i just read this whole thread and its disgusting,

if anyone is in here defending islam theyre wasting their time, theres no need to defend anything, let these kaafirs talk what they wanna talk,

34:5 Are they, then, not aware of how little of the sky and the earth lies open before them, and how much is hidden from them?A [6] (http://www.islamicity.com/Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?-database=Quran&-Table=tblMasterTranslit&-Response=Sreply1.asp&-Error=SReply1.asp&-MaxRecords=20&-token=Asad||<ta>true</ta><tt>true</tt><ts>true</ts><dc>true</dc><tx>true</tx><al>true</al>&-#) [or that,] if We so willed, We could cause the earth to swallow them,Asad(34,7) [7] (http://www.islamicity.com/Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?-database=Quran&-Table=tblMasterTranslit&-Response=Sreply1.asp&-Error=SReply1.asp&-MaxRecords=20&-token=Asad||<ta>true</ta><tt>true</tt><ts>true</ts><dc>true</dc><tx>true</tx><al>true</al>&-#) or cause fragments of the sky to fall down upon them?Asad(34,8) [8] (http://www.islamicity.com/Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?-database=Quran&-Table=tblMasterTranslit&-Response=Sreply1.asp&-Error=SReply1.asp&-MaxRecords=20&-token=Asad||<ta>true</ta><tt>true</tt><ts>true</ts><dc>true</dc><tx>true</tx><al>true</al>&-#) In all this, behold, there is a message indeed for every servant [of God] who is wont to turn unto Him [in repentance].Asad(34,9)

2:139 Say [to the Jews and the Christians]: "Do you argue with us about God?Asad(2,113) [113] (http://www.islamicity.com/Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?-database=Quran&-Table=tblMasterTranslit&-Response=Sreply1.asp&-Error=SReply1.asp&-MaxRecords=20&-token=Asad||<ta>true</ta><tt>true</tt><ts>true</ts><dc>true</dc><tx>true</tx><al>true</al>&-#) But He is our Sustainer as well as your Sustainer - and unto us shall be accounted our deeds, and unto you, your deeds; and it- is unto Him alone that we devote ourselves.

16:4 He creates man out of a [mere] drop of sperm: and lo! this same being shows himself endowed with the power to think and to argue!Asad(16,5)

SID
05-17-2007, 07:14 AM
Can we just take it back to my first post here? This thread has nothing to do with Islam.(you brought islam into the equation when you branded allah an arsehole) Yes I have read the Quran and I am not the least bit phased whether you believe me or not.(if you have read the qu,ran not just a couple of pages you will see its like no other book it just asks mankind to do good, give money to orphans ETC ETC) You are acting as if I've said muslims are a bunch of savages who kill everyone or something,( no but ultimate fist said something on that scale,and the previous thread was more directed to fist anyway) restrictions Allah places on people.(what is the point of of a god if he dosent tell us the things which are forbidden, life is a test) Because of the threats He makes against people who don't follow his rules.(god is the almighty you thinks he needs to make threats? lol they are not threats just advice) Because of Allah's repeated demands to have everybody kiss his arse(allah(god) wants us to kiss his arse? he just wants us to follow a straight path and worship him, which is the least we can do seen as hes given us all these plesaures)

When it comes down to it, by far my biggest problem with religions is the restrictions it places on people,(its a guide to living a straight life it is not restricting anything that we need only drugs alcohol, affairs ETC which are all detramental physicaly or mentaly) the robbing of people's freedom to do as they please,(go kill, fuck,shoot up, if thats what people want to do, there choice, islam is the straight path in life, if you are not a strong enough person you will never understand) the dictating of what is "right" and what is "wrong".(he dosent say anthings good when it is not and vice versa, we all have morals we can judge ourselves) Look at muslim females for example, who think there is a God who requires them to cover every square inch of their flesh,( a misconception, they do not cover every square inch only their hair, women are SACRED in islam they are the givers of life, we dont use our women for material gain ETC porn, showing them in bikinis using them like toys, no..they are special and are required the upmost dignity, if your talking about burkas that is not true islam, and the women who use them are doing it to show how strong they are with god, they dont give a fuck if ppeps think they look like a ninja, there just doing it out of dedication)



peace

SID
05-17-2007, 07:19 AM
salaam



what gives you the right to say they arent muslims?

bro its funny you talk about government brainwashing, when it seems you have been affected by this in your view about them.

no way g iam not affected by the fuckin goverment i am a REAL muslim and i believe what is in the qu,ran, afgahnistan and the taliban are used by osama(who is a former C.I.A agent) its all a big fuckin game g, open your eyes, the taliban is a product of american interference, to put emphasis on the bullshit which theve branded us, funny they havent caught osama yet

noel411
05-17-2007, 08:26 AM
p.s and Noel if you approach holy texts with an unclean heart, an unfocused mind, and bad intentions, you wont get anything good back!
See it's sooooo easy for religious people to say that, and it's no surprise that every time I have ever spoken negatively of a religious text to somebody who belongs to the religion on which that text is based, they have said that same thing. I decided to read the Quran several years ago back when I really had no idea what was inside these 'holy' books. The whole concept of religion has pretty much been out of the question for me since my mid-teens or so, when I started becoming my own person, but I thought I would find the Quran interesting and insightful at times. Instead what I found in it sickened me and I constantly wanted to throw it at the wall and rip it to pieces. Honestly the only thing that stopped me was the fact that it was somebody else's book.

As for the old testament, after reading the Quran I now had an idea that I might not enjoy another 'holy' book so much, but when I started it I actually didn't mind it so much. It started out as a decent read. However, it didn't take long to turn to shit, and I soon found that most of it bothered me in a similar way to how the Quran did. Some parts were ok. The story of David, Job, Ecclesiastes and Jonah were all decent reads, but in the end it is all ruined by the offensive and disturbing way in which God is portrayed.

I could just as easily say that the only reason you think so highly of the Quran is because you had a preconcieved idea that it was the ultimate truth before you read it. But I wouldn't do that. You know why? Because it is not my place to make such an assumption. Just like it is not your place to assume that everybody who doesn't like the Quran feels such a way because they "approach holy texts with an unclean heart, an unfocused mind, and bad intentions".

MF Herbs
05-17-2007, 08:30 AM
LOL yall wildin.. shalom..

noel411
05-17-2007, 09:00 AM
Sidious, since you can't even accept the fact that I have read the Quran in its entirety, you obviously feel that there is no sincerity in what I am saying. Therefore there is no point in me debating with you. On top of this you clearly have complete faith in Islam, which is fine by me, but it significantly limits the possibility of either of us benefiting from further debate.

Frontal Lobotomy
05-17-2007, 10:58 AM
i just read this whole thread and its disgusting

Co-sign, these kinds of topicsa are a haven for idiocy. Lock it down.

WARPATH
05-17-2007, 11:18 AM
i just read this whole thread and its disgusting,

if anyone is in here defending islam theyre wasting their time, theres no need to defend anything, let these kaafirs talk what they wanna talk,

34:5 Are they, then, not aware of how little of the sky and the earth lies open before them, and how much is hidden from them?A [6] (http://www.islamicity.com/Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?-database=Quran&-Table=tblMasterTranslit&-Response=Sreply1.asp&-Error=SReply1.asp&-MaxRecords=20&-token=Asad||<ta>true</ta><tt>true</tt><ts>true</ts><dc>true</dc><tx>true</tx><al>true</al>&-#) [or that,] if We so willed, We could cause the earth to swallow them,Asad(34,7) [7] (http://www.islamicity.com/Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?-database=Quran&-Table=tblMasterTranslit&-Response=Sreply1.asp&-Error=SReply1.asp&-MaxRecords=20&-token=Asad||<ta>true</ta><tt>true</tt><ts>true</ts><dc>true</dc><tx>true</tx><al>true</al>&-#) or cause fragments of the sky to fall down upon them?Asad(34,8) [8] (http://www.islamicity.com/Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?-database=Quran&-Table=tblMasterTranslit&-Response=Sreply1.asp&-Error=SReply1.asp&-MaxRecords=20&-token=Asad||<ta>true</ta><tt>true</tt><ts>true</ts><dc>true</dc><tx>true</tx><al>true</al>&-#) In all this, behold, there is a message indeed for every servant [of God] who is wont to turn unto Him [in repentance].Asad(34,9)

2:139 Say [to the Jews and the Christians]: "Do you argue with us about God?Asad(2,113) [113] (http://www.islamicity.com/Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?-database=Quran&-Table=tblMasterTranslit&-Response=Sreply1.asp&-Error=SReply1.asp&-MaxRecords=20&-token=Asad||<ta>true</ta><tt>true</tt><ts>true</ts><dc>true</dc><tx>true</tx><al>true</al>&-#) But He is our Sustainer as well as your Sustainer - and unto us shall be accounted our deeds, and unto you, your deeds; and it- is unto Him alone that we devote ourselves.

16:4 He creates man out of a [mere] drop of sperm: and lo! this same being shows himself endowed with the power to think and to argue!Asad(16,5)

Ha Ha!

All you mother fuckers got sonned with this post!

MORMON JESUS RULES!

Visionz
05-17-2007, 11:27 AM
God exists beyond the pages of all Holy texts. I think its important to remember that when having these topics of discussions. I see those text as sources of knowledge for how to properly conduct oneself. I disagree with the notion that there isn't such thing as "right" and "wrong". The rules of the game are already in place, and have been, long before any of us where here. No one (in their right mind atleast) likes being lied to, or wishes a violent death upon themselves. Basically, anything that you wouldn't want done to you yet you do to someone else IS Wrong. A society that was completely overtaken with moral ambiguity wouldn't be doing anyone any favors.

Noel when you say that its upsetting to be told how to conduct oneself what are the exact reccomendations that upset you? One who follows the words of the Quaran line for line would abstain from alcohol consumptions (just as an example). Now, knowing this, I don't feel I can really call myself a true Muslim because for that I'd have to submit completely but at the same time I have to realize I'm not doing my liver any favors and that in the long run I'm probably better off physically and mentally leaving the stuff alone. I may not like it (and believe me, I love a cold beer) but I can't say its not the truth.

SID
05-17-2007, 11:34 AM
"Sidious, since you can't even accept the fact that I have read the Quran in its entirety, you obviously feel that there is no sincerity in what I am saying. Therefore there is no point in me debating with you. On top of this you clearly have complete faith in Islam, which is fine by me, but it significantly limits the possibility of either of us benefiting from further debate."



i may have come across strong but that was only because you talked about how terrible the quran was, i understand we have all got diffrent views and i respect that.but you were talkin about it as if it was evil, and unpositive, its a beautifully written book, and has many scientific facts and prohecies, but i must say i HAVE NEVER READ THE QU,RAN IN ENGLISH, its well known thats its almost a different book to the original version (arabic), the real version has moved grown men to tears and ecstacy including myself, so noel if you really want to know the truth i suggest you learn arabic to read the real qu,ran, i doubt you will but hey at least i tried to advise you....by the way do you believe in god?

Urban_Journalz
05-17-2007, 05:06 PM
If you don't like The Holy Scriptures, then by all means, don't read 'em. Unless you only did it to moan, bitch and complain from a semi-knowledgeable foundation. If so, take a # and get in line. It's not like anyone is asking you or anyone like you to believe because in the end, you will know. Death opens every eye imaginable. So while you sit up and quibble, know, or remember rather, since you claim to have read Scripture, that no man knoweth the moment, nor the hour. That's in reference to death for you simpletons out there. The God in The Old Testament and Allah are the same God, so this, "Old Testament God" and "God of The Qur'an" labeling makes all of no sense and sounds more like that Greco-Roman mythology.

If you have a problem with the way God handles His creatures, His Laws, etc. then don't follow them! Jump on the bandwagon of 90% of the world and act like this life is all there is to existence and do any and all in your power to forget about sleep's twin brother. I promise you it won't do you any good. Your problem, like a lot of other people, seems to be that you have a phobia of following rules. You can't grasp the thought of everything you've done, good, bad and indifferent, being recorded and also potentially being the very thing that makes your awaiting immortality either blissful or horrendous. It scares the shit out of you, as it should, but you don't seem to know how to deal with it. Therefore, you tell yourself that it's all a big joke and try, worthlessly, to back-up your claims with nothing but an opinion and a few easily shot-down, if not corrected, facts.

If you can't understand why people choose to follow The Torah, The Gospels and The Qur'an, then stop trying to. Clearly, understanding of such a subject is far beyond your reach and you should stick to Legos and such. Believers don't need the confirmation, praise or understanding of disbelievers. Like Surah "Al-Kafir" (The Disbelievers) reads: "You (disbelievers) will never believe what we believe and we will never believe what you believe. You to yours and me to mine."

So, it's just that simple. You be happy in your constant doubt, guessing conjecture and flat out hatred of those who believe in something past what they can see and touch with the physical senses, and leave the believers alone. It's not our problem that you and people like you "don't get it". Maybe you're just one of the many people who won't get it until time's up and it's too late to "get it".

F.Y.I. The reason why a lot of Jews and Christians don't follow Islam is because either they hate Muslims simply because we have a different belief system, or, they know that our belief system is the true belief system and don't want to admit the fact that they've been living a lie. That was more along the lines of most Christians though, because most Jews know the deal and choose to ignore it, which is way worse.

Peace to chronik for settin' the simpletons in order.

WARPATH
05-17-2007, 06:34 PM
F.Y.I. The reason why a lot of Jews and Christians don't follow Islam is because either they hate Muslims simply because we have a different belief system, or, they know that our belief system is the true belief system and don't want to admit the fact that they've been living a lie. That was more along the lines of most Christians though, because most Jews know the deal and choose to ignore it, which is way worse.

Peace to chronik for settin' the simpletons in order.

Laughing my fucking ass of at this fake ass cornball. Go fly a hang glider into the statue of libery you fucking dummy. A real muslim would never make a statement like that.

Peace to all the real muslims, peace to the NOI, peace to the NGE, peace to all buddha monks, peace to all the hare krinshnas, peace to all the christians, peace to all the devil worshippers and pagans. Peace to all the
aethiests too.

MORMON JESUS RULES THIS BITCH

noel411
05-17-2007, 07:19 PM
Noel when you say that its upsetting to be told how to conduct oneself what are the exact reccomendations that upset you?
All of them. I believe adults have the freedom to decide for themselves what is “right” and “wrong”. It’s not the recommendations that bother me, it’s the fact that it is being suggested that I should give up my free will to act how I please, or else face harsh penalties. I don’t mind somebody giving me some guidelines they think will help me, but when they threaten me with harsh consequences if I don’t obey, they can pretty much get fucked.

The comments people have made about people raping and killing and stealing and whatever, without the guidance of God’s laws, is utterly ridiculous. Basically what those people are saying is that if it weren’t for religion they would be doing all these things. They are suggesting that it is man’s nature to do all these things unless told not to by somebody. I’m not religious, and I don’t rape, steal, or even kill any small insect if I can avoid it. And why not? Because I have decided for myself that doing such things does not bring positive results to my opinion of myself, and also hurts others. In fact I probably “sin” much less than many religious people. And that’s not giving myself a wrap. Obviously I’m suggesting this is probably the case on a much larger scale.

its well known thats its almost a different book to the original version (arabic), the real version has moved grown men to tears and ecstacy including myself, so noel if you really want to know the truth i suggest you learn arabic to read the real qu,ran
Yeah, I hear that all the time. At this point I highly doubt that I will ever learn Arabic, but you never know.

by the way do you believe in god?
I guess I believe in something you could call “God” if you wanted to. Definitely nothing like the God’s in holy books. I don’t believe in a sole controller figure named “God” at all. However, I do believe there is more to life than what we are experiencing now. I believe there may be a “force” or “entity” which you might label “God”. But anything outside of this is merely speculation, so I more or less let it rest. I believe I will find out more about such things when I pass on from this life. I can assure you that I am not least bit concerned about anything negative happening to me when I pass, as a result of so called “sinning” or speaking against “holy” books.


Urban Journalz appears to be a great example of the judgemental religious type. I think I’ll avoid any discussion with him. I certainly can’t see anything positive resulting from debate with such a person. Just for the record, your depiction of me is way off, but keep believing it if it makes you feel better. It’s all the same to me.

Urban_Journalz
05-17-2007, 08:53 PM
Laughing my fucking ass of at this fake ass cornball. Go fly a hang glider into the statue of libery you fucking dummy. A real muslim would never make a statement like that.

Peace to all the real muslims, peace to the NOI, peace to the NGE, peace to all buddha monks, peace to all the hare krinshnas, peace to all the christians, peace to all the devil worshippers and pagans. Peace to all the
aethiests too.

MORMON JESUS RULES THIS BITCH

You're nothing but a talker and you have no clue what a real Muslim would say. Just because I say something that makes most people angry and because you don't agree with it means nothing. Don't make the fatal mistake of thinking you're important.

Urban_Journalz
05-17-2007, 08:56 PM
Urban Journalz appears to be a great example of the judgemental religious type. I think I’ll avoid any discussion with him. I certainly can’t see anything positive resulting from debate with such a person. Just for the record, your depiction of me is way off, but keep believing it if it makes you feel better. It’s all the same to me.

Another pathetic attempt at reverse psychology. If my assumption of you was so contrary, you wouldn't see the need to address it, or you would've done a better job at doing so. Still, if you think I care that you won't address what I said and hold a convo with me, then you too are under the sad impression that you matter to anyone but you. I've conversed with enough morons in here and I don't need one more added to the list.

As far as me being "judgemental", for the ump-teenth time, it's called bearing witness. If you can't deal with it, don't bring the topics up. You brought it up, so down bitch up when the consequences rise. You morons think that when your card is pulled, you're being 'judged'. Judgements are followed by punishments. Real ones anyway, so think before you speak. Just because I happen to see right through to who most of you are is one thing and if you don't like it, I could care less. I'm not here to please any of you sorry creatures and if I feel a certain way then that's how I'm gonna express myself. Fuck your feelings. Freedom of speech maricon.

WARPATH
05-17-2007, 09:03 PM
You're nothing but a talker and you have no clue what a real Muslim would say. Just because I say something that makes most people angry and because you don't agree with it means nothing. Don't make the fatal mistake of thinking you're important.



Just chill UJ, I was just fucking witch ya!


Your cool homey, you just have an attitude when it comes to religious stuff. Nobody's perfect. I forgive you.

Urban_Journalz
05-17-2007, 09:11 PM
Just chill UJ, I was just fucking witch ya!


Your cool homey, you just have an attitude when it comes to religious stuff. Nobody's perfect. I forgive you.

I have an attitude when it comes to a lot of things. It's only when I speak about this, music and metaphysics that people get twisted panties. But it's cool though. If it was just a joke, no harm done. You can take your forgiveness and shove it though. :lmao:

noel411
05-17-2007, 09:19 PM
Urban Journalz, your hostility and aggression towards me is really doing wonders for the portrayal of your people, not to mention the insults. Your hostility does nothing but suggest to me that you are insecure about your beliefs. I may be wrong, but that’s how I’m seeing it.

Has anybody else noticed how my thread about the old testament has turned to a number of muslims arguing with and insulting each other and myself while I try to peacefully converse with them? Granted I did make the “arsehole” comment, which I apologised for. I’m not suggesting anything. Just an interesting observation which I think is worthy of note.

You’ve gotta love the peace religion brings to this world and its people.

WARPATH
05-17-2007, 09:58 PM
Urban Journalz, your hostility and aggression towards me is really doing wonders for the portrayal of your people, not to mention the insults. Your hostility does nothing but suggest to me that you are insecure about your beliefs. I may be wrong, but that’s how I’m seeing it.

Has anybody else noticed how my thread about the old testament has turned to a number of muslims arguing with and insulting each other and myself while I try to peacefully converse with them? Granted I did make the “arsehole” comment, which I apologised for. I’m not suggesting anything. Just an interesting observation which I think is worthy of note.

You’ve gotta love the peace religion brings to this world and its people.

You just got sonned by Noel 411.

Instant classic in my honest hoe humpin opinion.

V4D3R
05-17-2007, 11:03 PM
look how divided all of you fools are man

Tecknowledgist
05-17-2007, 11:11 PM
I was typing w/ one hand and eating powdery chps with the other,; I don't wanna dirty my keyboard so FUCK U!!!

lmfao.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't all three Abrahamic religions (Islam, Judaism, and Christianity) based in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament)?

I think y'all should convert to Judaism. It'll really solve the whole Islam vs. Christianity thing we got goin' on here. lol

diggy
05-18-2007, 12:57 AM
See it's sooooo easy for religious people to say that, and it's no surprise that every time I have ever spoken negatively of a religious text to somebody who belongs to the religion on which that text is based, they have said that same thing. I decided to read the Quran several years ago back when I really had no idea what was inside these 'holy' books. The whole concept of religion has pretty much been out of the question for me since my mid-teens or so, when I started becoming my own person, but I thought I would find the Quran interesting and insightful at times. Instead what I found in it sickened me and I constantly wanted to throw it at the wall and rip it to pieces. Honestly the only thing that stopped me was the fact that it was somebody else's book.

As for the old testament, after reading the Quran I now had an idea that I might not enjoy another 'holy' book so much, but when I started it I actually didn't mind it so much. It started out as a decent read. However, it didn't take long to turn to shit, and I soon found that most of it bothered me in a similar way to how the Quran did. Some parts were ok. The story of David, Job, Ecclesiastes and Jonah were all decent reads, but in the end it is all ruined by the offensive and disturbing way in which God is portrayed.

I could just as easily say that the only reason you think so highly of the Quran is because you had a preconcieved idea that it was the ultimate truth before you read it. But I wouldn't do that. You know why? Because it is not my place to make such an assumption. Just like it is not your place to assume that everybody who doesn't like the Quran feels such a way because they "approach holy texts with an unclean heart, an unfocused mind, and bad intentions".


Yur problem noel, u approached the holy books w/ the wrong mindset. First, u were in yur teens at the time and in yur own words u said u were yur own person at the time. U said u thought u would find the quran insightful and interesting- u had the wrong mindset.

The quran is not 4 yur entertainment; it is a book on how to live. Maybe that's why what u read did not interest u.

In the Quran, Allah says he causes some people to become astray as a result of reading the Quran. You, noel, are one of those people. What is in yur mind, as u read the Quran, if it is good, will be guided more to the good. What is in yur mind, as u read the Quran, if it is bad, will be led astray. I don't have at this time the exact number of verse this is from in Quran ( I read this verse a while back), but it is the truth.

noel411
05-18-2007, 01:46 AM
First, u were in yur teens at the time and in yur own words u said u were yur own person at the time.
You misunderstood. I only read the book a few years ago. I was saying that I realised somewhere around my mid-teens that religion was not for me. Anyway, that’s more or less irrelevant.
In the Quran, Allah says he causes some people to become astray as a result of reading the Quran. You, noel, are one of those people
There’s nothing I can really say to combat this. You accept this as the truth and I have no problem with your doing so. Obviously I wholeheartedly disagree, but I have no desire to try and convince you otherwise.

The problem with discussing these things is that religious people are always gonna throw shit like that at you. Shit about “you have the wrong mindset”, or “you had already decided you weren’t gonna like the Quran before you read it”. And the thing is that they really believe that to be true, because they just can’t accept that somebody doesn’t see it the same way as them. These texts are their life guide. They are their ultimate truth. If somebody else doesn’t see it the same way then it’s time to reach into that bag of clichés and pull out an excuse for their not being affected by these texts in the same way as they were.

I accept this. That’s why when somebody refutes something I say, with a religious approach, I usually just let it go. Because you can’t make them see your viewpoint. They will never accept it because they’ve found their path and they’re gonna stick to it. They have to. There is no room for change in religion. There is a straight path with brick walls on both sides.

noel411
05-18-2007, 01:47 AM
And yes, I know you said you're not religious, but you still act like you are.

diggy
05-18-2007, 03:03 AM
There’s nothing I can really say to combat this. You accept this as the truth and I have no problem with your doing so. Obviously I wholeheartedly disagree, but I have no desire to try and convince you otherwise.


If u read the Quran, u should know that my statement was true. But since u disagree, then u really did not pay attention to what u were reading and have no point trying to argue about a holy book u did not really consciously read

noel411
05-18-2007, 03:13 AM
I'm not saying that the quran does not say that, although I will admit right now that I don't recall it saying so. I wouldn't recall much of it specifically. I read it several years ago. Mostly what I remember is the general message of it, and that I was sickened by it when I read it. I was saying that I wholeheartedly disagreed with the notion that "Allah had led me astray".

And really, that was such a cheap post. I'm certain you know better than that. You know very well that I was not trying to say that the quran does not say what you said it does. Either that or you have very poor interpreting skills.

You can make as many excuses as you want for why I view the quran so negatively, but it's not going to change anything. You can't accept that I feel the way I do about the quran and you're most welcome to use as many excuses as you like to comfort yourself.

diggy
05-18-2007, 04:48 AM
I'm not saying that the quran does not say that, although I will admit right now that I don't recall it saying so. I wouldn't recall much of it specifically. I read it several years ago. Mostly what I remember is the general message of it, and that I was sickened by it when I read it. I was saying that I wholeheartedly disagreed with the notion that "Allah had led me astray".

And really, that was such a cheap post. I'm certain you know better than that. You know very well that I was not trying to say that the quran does not say what you said it does. Either that or you have very poor interpreting skills.

You can make as many excuses as you want for why I view the quran so negatively, but it's not going to change anything. You can't accept that I feel the way I do about the quran and you're most welcome to use as many excuses as you like to comfort yourself.


Were u sickened by good messages like:

respect yur parents?
eat healthy foods?
don't eat pork flesh?
keep yur oaths?

To be sickened by all of what is in the Quran tells me that yur the one who's sick (mentally) if you are sickened by messages of good for your own self.

Longbongcilvaringz
05-18-2007, 05:03 AM
I guess I believe in something you could call “God” if you wanted to. Definitely nothing like the God’s in holy books. I don’t believe in a sole controller figure named “God” at all. However, I do believe there is more to life than what we are experiencing now. I believe there may be a “force” or “entity” which you might label “God”. But anything outside of this is merely speculation, so I more or less let it rest. I believe I will find out more about such things when I pass on from this life. I can assure you that I am not least bit concerned about anything negative happening to me when I pass, as a result of so called “sinning” or speaking against “holy” books.[/COLOR]




i see alot of people say shit like this, but why do you feel this way? is it just intuition or something like that...if so why is it hard to accept that other people intuitively feel that the only real god is a muslim one, or a christian one etc, or that other people believe other outlandish things which religions encourage them to believe?

i cant see how you can objectively criticise other peoples beliefs as being misplaced or incorrect if you believe something like that. im not saying you have done this necessarily though, but alot of agnostics seem to dismiss religion as far fetched and ridiculous.

i would really like somene to explain to me how they come to reject or critisise religion (not the institution, but the belief system) but still have some kind of belief or faith in a higher being or existance after death. it really does confuse me

Longbongcilvaringz
05-18-2007, 05:06 AM
Were u sickened by good messages like:

respect yur parents?
eat healthy foods?
don't eat pork flesh?
keep yur oaths?

To be sickened by all of what is in the Quran tells me that yur the one who's sick (mentally) if you are sickened by messages of good for your own self.


not wanting to double post but...

why should you necessarily respect your parents? if they abuse you, are generally arseholes or are disrespectful to you, why should you show them any respect?

oh yeah, and pork is healthy in moderation :chef:

noel411
05-18-2007, 05:07 AM
Were u sickened by good messages like:

respect yur parents?
eat healthy foods?
don't eat pork flesh?
keep yur oaths?

To be sickened by all of what is in the Quran tells me that yur the one who's sick (mentally) if you are sickened by messages of good for your own self.
You're being totally unreasonable now. Just leave it alone.

NEVER did I say I was sickened by ALL of it. What I was sickened by was the constant threatening and demands to kiss Allah's arse.

That post was every bit as cheap as your last one. Maybe even more so. And now this is turning into one of those threads where I am having to constantly repeat myself, which I have experienced so much on this forum.

noel411
05-18-2007, 05:30 AM
i see alot of people say shit like this, but why do you feel this way? is it just intuition or something like that...if so why is it hard to accept that other people intuitively feel that the only real god is a muslim one, or a christian one etc, or that other people believe other outlandish things which religions encourage them to believe?

i cant see how you can objectively criticise other peoples beliefs as being misplaced or incorrect if you believe something like that. im not saying you have done this necessarily though, but alot of agnostics seem to dismiss religion as far fetched and ridiculous.

i would really like somene to explain to me how they come to reject or critisise religion (not the institution, but the belief system) but still have some kind of belief or faith in a higher being or existance after death. it really does confuse me
I never have and never will criticise(d) anybody for believing in God. The question I have put forward at the start of this thread was why would anybody want to believe in a God who is "overtly jealous, vengeful, demanding, judgemental, unaccepting, unfair, stubborn" etc. I am genuinely curious about this question. If there were a figure named "God" I would hope that He would actually be somebody to look up to and respect. Not somebody who possessed all the traits previously mentioned. However, if people want to believe in such a God then that's their business. I'm not asking them not to, only why they would.

As for criticising religion but still having a belief in something you might choose to call "God", to me spirituality is something best explored on an individual level. No guidelines. No brainwashing. No rules. No lies. No organisations. No dictating of what to believe. No references to outdated books that were written by man. Just you and your own intuition. Because that's all we have. That's all we can have. Nobody knows anything outside of this life, but religions like to pretend they do. I have contempt for that, and even more contempt for creating a "God" figure who is not worthy of a single man's respect.

Finally, why do I feel there is something outside of this life? I guess you could put it down to intuition, plain and simple. I just don't believe that once our body fails us we disappear forever. For one thing it's pointless. And hey, maybe life is pointless? Maybe this is all there is? I don't know. But I don't think so. I definitely don't believe in a "heaven" where the souls of the dead come to gather. I definitely don't believe in anybody judging us when we die. But I do believe there is something beyond what we are experiencing here. Hopefully something better than this, because this shit right here is kinda fucked.

tobacojones
05-18-2007, 05:54 AM
You have to be the most patient son of a bitch on earth, unless you're a girl.

SubtleEnergies
05-18-2007, 07:16 AM
Hey Noel, try reading Rumi by Coleman Barks...it might show you another perspective to how you see these theologies.

SID
05-18-2007, 07:31 AM
Urban Journalz, your hostility and aggression towards me is really doing wonders for the portrayal of your people, not to mention the insults. Your hostility does nothing but suggest to me that you are insecure about your beliefs. I may be wrong, but that’s how I’m seeing it.




Has anybody else noticed how my thread about the old testament has turned to a number of muslims arguing with and insulting each other and myself while I try to peacefully converse with them? Granted I did make the “arsehole” comment, which I apologised for. I’m not suggesting anything. Just an interesting observation which I think is worthy of note.



You’ve gotta love the peace religion brings to this world and its people.You do not need to take forum comments as portrayal of our people, thats just pathetic, some people are agressive, forcefull ETC it has nothing to do with "his people' i think you should further that kind of judgmental acusation away from your thinking, if you want constructive discussion

now your just giving an even more arrogant view of this debate, put aside the "muslim" and just let it be people arguing with each other, as you say they are only pissed cause you called "allah" an asshole, what do you think christians would say if you called jesus christ an asshole/ i bet they would say a lot worse then the muslims have.

and maybe we just need to learn to live peacefully with each other first, which we never have done even before the birth of religon.

look how divided all of you fools are man
its not called divison its called UNDERSTANDING
lmfao.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't all three Abrahamic religions (Islam, Judaism, and Christianity) based in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament)?

I think y'all should convert to Judaism. It'll really solve the whole Islam vs. Christianity thing we got goin' on here. lol

judasim WAS gods first revalation, it was pure and beautifull but what it has become today is just unconcievable....the qu,ran is the final perfected revelation for mankind seen as the other abrahamic religons became corrupted(thats the view of a muslim anyway), and dont see this thread as islam vs christianity, its not, sadly the situation today is that the zionists who control america are using bush as a mad christian crusader, so the world views it as christianity vs islam, but its really zionism vs the world

You have to be the most patient son of a bitch on earth, unless you're a girl. or just a individual plonked on this insane earth searching for meaning, but finding it hard with so many contradictions and stereotypes, as i once did, but hopefully we wll all find respite before our spiritual departure

SubtleEnergies
05-18-2007, 08:05 AM
Also I would like to offer a couple of views on what you have said. These are the ways I see merit in the teachings of these religions. These are only opinions.

"overtly jealous, vengeful, demanding, judgemental, unaccepting, unfair, stubborn"

In the Bible and the Koran "God" has been personified for the sake of human understanding. God does not feel emotions like we do. God does not have needs. God is not even comprehendable to a human being.

So let's take an example; "God is angry." This doesn't mean there is some dude in the guy storming around sulking. If you actually think about what it is saying you start to widen your understanding. God is not a being. It is ultimate reality beyond rational comprehension. And it being "angry" is an analogy (to something human so the simpletons can understand it and those who can can also read at a deeper level) for you being on the bad side of this force.

Now Noel might ask "Why does this force have a bad side at all? Why can't it just be nice to us all the time?"

There are a couple of answers. An Islamic one is that bad is bad in our perspective, and that is because we don't see the bigger picture. I see this view as being in line with Taoism too. Also, in a commentary on the Koran I read that if God wasn't mean he couldn't be nice. Think about it this way: By not being "mean" to the people who deserve it, that in istelf would be an injustice to the good. You may say things don't always seem fair...refer to point one. Because the older I get...the more life seems beautiful in that I always have what I need and more...even in hard times...the hard times seem to make sense.

Also, God is the laws that govern the Universe. You know the laws, if you don't he sent a few people who did to spit em out. Now if you know the law and you go against them EXCPECT it to come back to you. You fucked yourself. Like stickin your arm out of a moving train. That's why in the Koran it also says "All good is from God, and all harm you do to yourselves" (even though technically the bad is from God too, it is an anology to say that you got yourself into it).

As for jealousy - this must be a reference to idols. If you follow these rules you wouldn't see it as jealous (the Koran says several times something to the extent God doesn't need our praise, we need to be praising God). You would see this as a warning to keep you safe from confusion. In poltheist religions you see people (even with Buddhism and religious Taoism) who actually believe the various God's and Dieties exist and fail to see they are often mere representations of something more abstract. For example Egyptian religion had a pantheon of God. Thoth was a bird-headed dude, the God of wisdom. Obviously there is no such dude presiding over wisdom, however he was was representing a principle. By doing this myths could be used to convey some deep truths.

An example of this is the weight of the heart in Egyptian religion. When a person dies Anpu a jackal headed god will lead the deceased into a hall to be judged by the Neteru (pantheon of the Gods). When he comes in there is Tahuti (Thoth - God of wisdom) with a pad and pen ready to record that shit. On a set of scales will be the deceased's heart (intentions, thoughts etc) and it is weighed against the feather of the Goddess of Truth Maat.

Now you could take this as a lame story that isn't true. But look at what is going on. It says when you die your deeds/conciousness is going to be weighed by truth and if your heart is heavy (full of attachments, sins etc) your wisdom is gonna be the witness to that. In some pictures of this scene the deceased is actually shown with 7 chakras, and being bitten by the devourer crocodile (his name has slipped my mind) between the 3rd and 4th chakras, indicating that a person has to rise above mere survival instincts.

Now is this teaching unique to the myth? The koran says "and your own wisdom will bear witness against you." Same as the weighing of the heart. But what does this actually mean? I think the Hadith (saying of Muhammed) of "actions will be judged by their intentions" puts this in perspective as meaning at the end of the day the main problem with sin is you have to live with it, and if you know something is wrong it will eat you up by that very knowledge. This shows Muhammed didn't think the external practices of Islam were the point, but the means, along with the hadith "there are as many ways to God as there are souls."

So now to the point - why does the Koran ban such cool myths as the weighing of the heart which expound deep truths? Most people even have trouble understanding the analogies of Islam (a relatively extremely simple religion), and people became confuse and caught up on the actual gods who were only meant to represent things....this obviously isn't good spiritually.

Other things can be made sense of in this way. "Every human has two angels, one to record their good, and one to record their bad deeds" the Koran says. What mumbo jumbo you say? You have never seen an angel? An angel is a word which means a force from God. Angels were not always personified. Look at death - it is actually an angel. In Hiduism Katha - death is a God. So there are forces of God that record our good and bad deeds and make them catch up with us. This in Buddhism is called Karma. Even Karma has been taken a bit too literally - but you get the idea.

The story of Adam in the Koran where all the angels submit except Satan. What does this mean? Ok, all the energies of God can be controlled by man (the bible makes it clear through our knowledge and free-will) except Satan. Look at us - we go to the moon, postpone death, even bring people back to life! We cause particles to collide in accelerators. We really can submit them. But what is Satan? Satan "whispers into the hearts of men, from among the Jinn and the men" (Surah An Nas) and Satan only has the power which man has not yet claimed (Muhammed). Satan is the ignorance that allows a man to be controlled by his animalistic impulses. And why won't it submit? Coz there is no easy way I guess....We can go to the moon, but I can't get motivated to not be lazy lol....like the RZA says "it's a daily conflict between man and beast."

Most these things make sense when you get the idea of God being a being with desires etc. Look at the Tao - beyond comprehension, it is called the great, but any name is insufficient. You think the Tao isn't judgmental and jealous? Trust me, go against the order of things and you'll get judged hard. And you worship a false idea and live in denial it will make you pay for that too.

Most of the things Buddha taught weren't all that different to Muhammed, Taoism and Islam have been compared as being almost identical, along with the teachings of Jesus. Western religions seem to use alot more metaphor. It is beautiful, but also confuses alot of people. Maybe you should read more on these religions and look at theology afterwards.

Why did they use words like "god" and "angels"? Man, it was 8000 years ago for some of these teachings, there were expressing things which are hard enough to put into words at the best of times.

The Koran also says "any good that you do is for your own soul." You pray for your benefit, not God's. It's all for you.

Most religious people don't seem to have the depth of mind to view things this way, so they miss out on alot and invent the ugly dogmas we see everywhere. I agree that a religious person SHOULD question their beliefs, coz taking them on the surface - well we'll leave that to the weighing of the heart coz I believe most religious people deep down know the lies they tell themselves out of fear.

So in short, just stop taking it so literally. The Koran makes this more clear than the bible. It says nothing in paradise is the same as here but the names. It says the drinks there aren't like drinks here, the food, the women, it is actually very clear it is all metaphors. Even the day of judgement is put in some ambiguous terms which makes people capable of doing so think a bit.

Also, you are a man like Muhammed, Moses and Buddha. So question the stuff.

Alot of Jewish ritual in the old Testament is closer aligned to the dogmatic stuff I mentioned btw. Keep in mind Jewish religion was built up to also be political and social.

noel411
05-18-2007, 08:07 AM
You have to be the most patient son of a bitch on earth, unless you're a girl.
Haha, you get used to it on this forum.
Hey Noel, try reading Rumi by Coleman Barks
No doubt. I'll check it out.
You do not need to take forum comments as portrayal of our people, thats just pathetic, some people are agressive, forcefull ETC it has nothing to do with "his people' i think you should further that kind of judgmental acusation away from your thinking, if you want constructive discussion
But you see the thing is that he is representing your people. That's the point I am making. Of course I'm not gonna use him to judge all muslims. I merely point it out for his benefit, and to indicate why I don't bother trying to debate with him on any higher level. I don't care if he wants to carry on like that. It only works in my favour.
now your just giving an even more arrogant view of this debate, put aside the "muslim" and just let it be people arguing with each other, as you say they are only pissed cause you called "allah" an asshole, what do you think christians would say if you called jesus christ an asshole/ i bet they would say a lot worse then the muslims have.
I realise the severity of the "arsehole" comment from a muslim perspective. I accept it and apoligised for it. There is nothing more I can do.

The reason I pointed out that it is muslims who are arguing in this thread has nothing to do with bringing down Islam. I pointed it out to emphasize the seperation that religion creates among people. Here we have people of the same faith arguing with and insulting one another, in a thread that is not even based on this particular faith.

I wouldn't go out of my way to single out Islam. I detest all the key religions of the western world more or less equally. I think it is absurd that an adherent to any one of them would ever try to claim superiority over an adherent to another one.

As for being "arrogant", I have been VERY reasonable in this thread, aside from that one "arsehole" comment which was more disrespectful than arrogant. I am probably the only person involved in this debate who hasn't insulted any other participant. I have allowed everybody else to state their opinion without challenging their right to hold that opinion.

I have merely presented and defended my own thoughts and opinions. What more do you want from me?

SubtleEnergies
05-18-2007, 08:22 AM
When will you idiots realise you are both right and wrong :P

noel411
05-18-2007, 08:28 AM
Excellent post, SubtleEnergies. This thread needed that. I might even read it over again later. That really made me think. (EDIT: In reference to your long post).

As for this...
Also, in a commentary on the Koran I read that if God wasn't mean he couldn't be nice. Think about it this way: By not being "mean" to the people who deserve it, that in istelf would be an injustice to the good. You may say things don't always seem fair...refer to point oneI absolutely understand and agree with this. I do not wish for or believe in a God who never lets anything negative happen and creates a "smooth sailing" life for us. I never intended to indicate that I did. We would never learn a thing that way. Like I said, the sort of God I would deem worthy of worship would allow free will without the threat of being judged and punished for our actions, upon our death. That does not mean an easy ride through life. We suffer the consequences of our negative actions here on Earth. We are judged for them by our fellow people. That's how we learn.

And yes, there is no kind without mean, no hot without cold, no dark without light etc. I understand this concept.

SubtleEnergies
05-18-2007, 08:35 AM
Don't worry Noel. I understand how you saw it. But most religious people are idiots incapable of rational thought (or too scared of it).

Hope it helped. Check out the Rumi book I reccommended too if you get a chance...or just read his stuff online (but some translations aren't great and it is POETRY).

Glad it helped a bit. You might want to look at Taoism if you haven't already. I can send you a good translation of the Tao Teh Ching if you give me your email and want it?

Also that thread we did on Islam and Taoism ("The Way of Islam") was great. Had a lot of good comparitive quotes that will get you REALLY thinking.

noel411
05-18-2007, 08:44 AM
Haha, I actually own and have read the 'Tao Te Ching' as well a 'Chang Tzu'. They were pretty good. I enjoyed both of them. But thanks for the offer.

I'm gonna google this Rumi dude soon, and I'll see if I can't pick up that book if it sounds interesting.

I might have a look at that thread too.

But yeah, thanks for taking the time to drop that extensive post. Like I said, this thread really needed that.

SubtleEnergies
05-18-2007, 08:48 AM
Yeah I think you will like Rumi's message. Try and get Coleman Barks I like him.

No problem, I am just a dude with too many religious books and nothing to do on a Friday night ;)

noel411
05-18-2007, 08:56 AM
So Coleman Barks is a translator of the work of somebody named Rumi, right?

noel411
05-18-2007, 09:02 AM
Nevermind. I just found the answer to my question. I'll keep a look out for translations of Rumi on ebay.

Cheers for the tip.

Peace

SubtleEnergies
05-18-2007, 09:06 AM
Yes

"Not Christian or Jew or Muslim, not Hindu, Buddhist, Sufi or Zen. Not any religion, or cultural system. I am not from the East or the West, nor out of the ocean or up from the ground, not natural or ethereal, not composed of elements at all. I do not exist, am not an entity in this world or the next, did not descend from Adam and Eve or any origin story. My place is placeless, a trace of the traceless. Neither body nor soul. I belong to the beloved have seen the two worlds as one and that one call to and know, First, last, outer, inner, only that breath breathing human"

That's Rumi! Straight through the BS of the technical truths and to the reeal meanings.

SID
05-18-2007, 09:09 AM
good post subtleEnergies i never thought of the comparison between taoism and islam....very intresting, ive always believed that most relgions have the same essence just portrayed in different methods and teachings, like hinduism people has misconcepted that they believe in a million gods, they dont, they beleive in one god brahman, but his sides are personified int the form of other gods, death, life ETC

SubtleEnergies
05-18-2007, 09:16 AM
the Irony about Hiduism is it is "polytheist" because it has all these gods like a "god of death."

But both Islam and Christianity (monotheist religions) have an angel of Death.

But the word for the God-head used in Hinduism distinguishes a supreme all-encompassing God of which all the other are a part. And A SEPARATE WORD is used for these lesser gods. So isn't it just a matter of translation?

SID
05-18-2007, 09:50 AM
it could be classed as a polytheist religon but ive talked to a few hindus who have told me that they dont worship different deities but they are all one "brahman", just personifiying his attributies and powers, you could call it a matter of translation but i would class it as a individual representation if you know what i mean

V4D3R
05-18-2007, 10:25 AM
its not called divison its called UNDERSTANDING

Nah - it's called a 2000 year old debate/arguement that has divided many

SID
05-18-2007, 10:50 AM
or a scapegoat for the evil and corrupt

Golden_Armz
05-18-2007, 11:27 AM
excellent post SubtleEnergies,

i must admit, some of your interpretations of those myths are exactly how i percieved them. I go by the fact that every nation had its messengers and scripture. When western "scientists" translates texts like egyptian and sumerian, i dont trust them.... if u replace THEIR interpretation of the word "god" into "angel" or "messenger", you will see many truths appear, along with many similarities...

i have a link to an article i read a while back that has stayed in my mind...however people that read it shouldnt jump to conclusions and study further if they want to make assumptions, its quite deep;

The Tao of Islam

http://www.humanevol.com/doc/doc200207291196.html


http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/tao/tao.htm

maybe we could open a new thread from where you started Subtle?

ive moderated a forum which dissallows straying off the topic in threads, and it worked really well...everytime a new subject is mentioned, a new thread is opened...it prevents many unnecessary arguements (moderators take heed!)

peace

Longbongcilvaringz
05-18-2007, 11:31 AM
I never have and never will criticise(d) anybody for believing in God. The question I have put forward at the start of this thread was why would anybody want to believe in a God who is "overtly jealous, vengeful, demanding, judgemental, unaccepting, unfair, stubborn" etc. I am genuinely curious about this question. If there were a figure named "God" I would hope that He would actually be somebody to look up to and respect. Not somebody who possessed all the traits previously mentioned. However, if people want to believe in such a God then that's their business. I'm not asking them not to, only why they would.

As for criticising religion but still having a belief in something you might choose to call "God", to me spirituality is something best explored on an individual level. No guidelines. No brainwashing. No rules. No lies. No organisations. No dictating of what to believe. No references to outdated books that were written by man. Just you and your own intuition. Because that's all we have. That's all we can have. Nobody knows anything outside of this life, but religions like to pretend they do. I have contempt for that, and even more contempt for creating a "God" figure who is not worthy of a single man's respect.

Finally, why do I feel there is something outside of this life? I guess you could put it down to intuition, plain and simple. I just don't believe that once our body fails us we disappear forever. For one thing it's pointless. And hey, maybe life is pointless? Maybe this is all there is? I don't know. But I don't think so. I definitely don't believe in a "heaven" where the souls of the dead come to gather. I definitely don't believe in anybody judging us when we die. But I do believe there is something beyond what we are experiencing here. Hopefully something better than this, because this shit right here is kinda fucked.


fair enough, it still confuses me, but i guess you either believe in it or not.

the way i see it, i have no evidence or reason to believe religion is valid and i thus have to reason to believe in a higher being. thats just me.

the subject of why some people follow religion and believe in god and others dont is pretty interesting, i remember i few years ago some scientists claimed to have found a "religious" part of the brain, im pretty sure this theory was proved inaccurate though.

Longbongcilvaringz
05-18-2007, 11:36 AM
Don't worry Noel. I understand how you saw it. But most religious people are idiots incapable of rational thought (or too scared of it).

Hope it helped. Check out the Rumi book I reccommended too if you get a chance...or just read his stuff online (but some translations aren't great and it is POETRY).

Glad it helped a bit. You might want to look at Taoism if you haven't already. I can send you a good translation of the Tao Teh Ching if you give me your email and want it?

Also that thread we did on Islam and Taoism ("The Way of Islam") was great. Had a lot of good comparitive quotes that will get you REALLY thinking.


word, taoism is really interesting, what struck me about it was how different it is in structure as oppose to other religions, less clear cut, and less instructive. sort of more open to interpretation and different understandings.

SID
05-18-2007, 01:24 PM
all religons are linked, i have a philosophy or theology whatever you want to call it that, god has let all these religons come in to creation not for confusion or "if you choose the wrong religon you go to hell" i think that all relgions deep down in the epicentre of their teachings all have the same main meaning and focus, the belief in a supreme being (something bigger then yourself) whether that be karma, buddha, brahman, or the god of the ba,hai they are all diffrent structures of the same blueprint, put down by god to make life not an easy one-way street (if that was the case, what would be the point of our creation just made to automatically follow the ONE religon, think about it)but a test of character, belief and choice.....sadly people who declare their religon is true and the rest go to hell, are the ones who really put a bad name on the face of religon,our paths lie in the way of many obstacles and doubts and iam sure that this is how it has been designed, because if there is one almighty all knowing god all the shit we talk on the corp or wherever cant possibly touch a fraction of the truth, there have been millions before us and there will be millions after all with new religons and beliefs. thats why i think its important not to spread hate and animosty between religons put class them all as equal choices and obstacles sent down by god to make our life worthwhile (ETC not an easy ride) beacause again what would be the point?

Visionz
05-18-2007, 01:56 PM
fair enough, it still confuses me, but i guess you either believe in it or not.

the way i see it, i have no evidence or reason to believe religion is valid and i thus have to reason to believe in a higher being. thats just me.

the subject of why some people follow religion and believe in god and others dont is pretty interesting, i remember i few years ago some scientists claimed to have found a "religious" part of the brain, im pretty sure this theory was proved inaccurate though.That train of thought would still be directly opposite of how the events unfolded. First God, then religion.

the silencer
05-18-2007, 02:18 PM
nice to see SubtleEnergies back in this mofo...

i remember makin a thread a while back about the similarities between Taoism and Islam...was pretty good, but im too lazy to dig it up..

havent gone through this whole thread yet but i just wanna add a little.....i've been reading Joseph Campbell alot lately, his shit is amazing, and according to him, all these different religions and myths (such as those in the Old Testament) are just local, ethnic manifestations of elementary ideas....and when you start to objectively look at the stories and other literature all across the world, you will start to recognize that...

in our newly connected and globalized community (just in this forum alone we got ppl from all over the planet) i think a HUGE step in achieving peace and becoming ONE is to revolutionize our ideas and perspectives on religion..especially each other's religions...

one more thing that Campbell said once that I love, God is a metaphor for that which transcends all human thought.....i think when you start to get too attached to the ideas of God in your particular religion and attack other's views on the same thing, we start to get into serious trouble..

Urban_Journalz
05-18-2007, 02:29 PM
[QUOTE=noel411;812334]Urban Journalz, your hostility and aggression towards me is really doing wonders for the portrayal of your people, not to mention the insults. Your hostility does nothing but suggest to me that you are insecure about your beliefs. I may be wrong, but that’s how I’m seeing it.


Of course it does wonders if you're dumb enough to both practice and admit to stereotyping. You come out of your mouth stupid and because you get a response, now you go all wanna-be passive? I read what you typed so don't try to pull the clothes of a monk and the tounge of a snake role cuz it's old. Like I said, fuck your feelings and your thoughts, if you can even call them such. I bring a peaceful convo when it's called for and when it's deserved. You just don't meet the criteria.

That's a bitch move too. The moment a practicing person of any faith gets angry, we're either extremeists, or bad examples. Damn the fact that we may be justified in our outbursts and we're also human, so anger is apart of who we are. No no, it's only fair if you talk your shit and we take the subtle approach. Like I said, I do that when it's necessary, but you, your foundation is melting plastic. I could care less what you think because that was your first mistake, the second was recording what you thought on screen.

Kong
05-18-2007, 02:30 PM
I think they got it fucked up, its more like advice and you take what you make sense of to help you grow. You don't need to follow it like a rule book it was translated that way by man.

Black Man
05-18-2007, 06:44 PM
the fuck u talkin bout im telling him not to compare, read ya shit over homeboy i sed "COMMENTS COMPARING ISLAM TO ANYOTHER RELIGION IS OUTRAGEOUS, IF FOOLS REALLY WANNA KNO WATS GOIN ON READ THE QURAN, DONT READ THE BIBLE OR TORAH AN COMPARE"


ur a stupid motherfucker, all u non believers of islam HAVE NO FAITH ON UR RELIGIONS, u dont kno bout nothing bout islam so why u talkin? have u read the holy quran? have u spoken to religious believrs, have u spoken to scholars? the fuck do u kno bout mecca? PROVE IT TO ME SON, DO U KNO 1 MUSLIM WHO CONVERTED FROM ISLAM TO ANOTHER RELIGION? ANSWER IS NO, WE HAVE STRONG BELIEF OVER OUR RELIGION AN WE DNT DARE SAY FUCK GOD FUCK HIS WORD, LETS WRITE A NEW QURAN INSTED I TRY TO TEACH U IDIOTS SOME SCIENCE SO U CAN GET IT THRU UR MSNBC CHRISTIAN ATHEIST, DONT BELIEVE IN JESUS SO I DNT BELIEVE IN ANY OTHER RELIGION SORRY ASS. U FOOLS ARE IDIOTS, AN BEST BELIEVE HOMEBOY I AINT NO EXTREMIST BUT I SPEAK FOR MY RELIGION TO DUMBASS FOOLS WHO VIEW ATHIEST NEGATIVITY TOWARDS RELGION.. SAME GOES FOR ZIONIST HEDS

.

rubyspirit
05-18-2007, 10:46 PM
noel411...

Repent while you have the chance. You can't question how God manages his creation. If you are evil and wicked, why should he bless you? That is the question he posed to the Israelites.

Undoubtedly you didn't understand what you read.

Ultimate Fist
05-18-2007, 11:00 PM
noel411...

Repent while you have the chance. You can't question how God manages his creation. If you are evil and wicked, why should he bless you? That is the question he posed to the Israelites.

Undoubtedly you didn't understand what you read.

...And in come Christians to yell at poor noel, too.

Any Jews feeling like coming in?

How about some Sikhs or Bahai?

Hey, Ruby, Urban says Christians secretly know Islam is true! Why don't you convert, lol.

This is one of those threads that just needs to die...

noel411
05-19-2007, 01:24 AM
the way i see it, i have no evidence or reason to believe religion is valid and i thus have to reason to believe in a higher being. thats just me.To me belief in a God and religion have little to do with one another. I don't see why you should expect everybody who believes in a God to adhere to a religion.
I could care less what you thinkIf this is the way you feel then please stop reading and addressing my posts.
Repent while you have the chance. You can't question how God manages his creation. If you are evil and wicked, why should he bless you? That is the question he posed to the Israelites.

Undoubtedly you didn't understand what you read.There we go with that good 'ol worthless cliche of "not understanding" again. I have already expressed my thoughts on such comments. As for "repenting", I have nothing to repent for and nobody I feel I need to express my repent to.

The Hound
05-19-2007, 02:04 AM
all it took was one arsehole comment that set muslims off ... yet theyre always the first to take shots at christianity, thats why the rest of the world is suck of muslims, you cant have civilised debates with them, you cant question islam or their teachings, they just get angry, i dont mean to hate,but its true,some muslims can be civilised with it but far too many are quick to get angry and aggressive instead of 'ok he just questioned my belief, here is a civilised response, lets move on' ... the way i see religion

religion is the playful work of the devil ... there is a god, there is a devil - there has to be to keep the balance - but god didnt send anyone down to earth, god doesnt work like that, god doesnt need to force beliefs, god sits back and those who truly believe in the higher being, on their OWN and NOT THRU FORCEFUL SCRIPTURES are those truly worthy of eternal peace ... only the devil works thru devious means and laws and restrictions ... only the devil would come out and have to prove himself ... but in our mind states we have it the other way around ... we all think god has to prove himself where as we acknowledge the devil without question ... the devil brought religion upon us to divide and conquer, that is the only way to explain why there is so many different religions in the world ... if there was one god, there would be one religion, but because all religions are from all corners of the globe, the devil strategised and conducted these religions teachings in different parts of the globe, and slowly but surely these people got closer to one another which caused conflict ... do any of you really think the state of religion today is how god intended or does it seem like something the devil would of created? ... god will have the final say, which is why im not scared

sorry to fuck ya thread up noel, just had to get shit off my chest :) and yes what i wrote sounds like garbage and no one will probably make any sense of it, but i find it hard to put my belief on this shit into words that make sense, thats the basis of what i mean

noel411
05-19-2007, 02:32 AM
sorry to fuck ya thread up noel, just had to get shit off my chest :) and yes what i wrote sounds like garbage and no one will probably make any sense of it
Not at all, dude. Everybody is most welcome to drop their thoughts in this thread, as long as it has some relevance to the topic or what has been discussed in this thread. All I ask is that people try to keep it civilised, which you did. I actually thought your post offered an interesting perspective on the topic of religion.

SubtleEnergies
05-19-2007, 05:42 AM
http://www.wutang-corp.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25380&highlight=the+way+of+islam

The Way of Islam.

Golden_Armz
05-19-2007, 09:41 AM
[quote=Tonearm_Terrorwrist;813144]all it took was one arsehole comment that set muslims off ... yet theyre always the first to take shots at christianity, thats why the rest of the world is suck of muslims, you cant have civilised debates with them, you cant question islam or their teachings, they just get angry, i dont mean to hate,but its true,some muslims can be civilised with it but far too many are quick to get angry and aggressive instead of 'ok he just questioned my belief, here is a civilised response, lets move on' ... the way i see religion

the rude comment is not questioning teachings my friend, learn to differentiate between the two. you dont approach a debate in that manner and then expect mannered replies, u get back what u give simple as. stop generalising.

u can question islam and its teachings, go and question an imam and then go and question a priest and then see who will try and make u dogmatic.

SID
05-19-2007, 10:10 AM
all it took was one arsehole comment that set muslims off ... yet theyre always the first to take shots at christianity, thats why the rest of the world is suck of muslims, you cant have civilised debates with them, you cant question islam or their teachings, they just get angry, i dont mean to hate,but its true,some muslims can be civilised with it but far too many are quick to get angry and aggressive instead of 'ok he just questioned my belief, here is a civilised response, lets move on' ... the way i see religion

religion is the playful work of the devil ... there is a god, there is a devil - there has to be to keep the balance - but god didnt send anyone down to earth, god doesnt work like that, god doesnt need to force beliefs, god sits back and those who truly believe in the higher being, on their OWN and NOT THRU FORCEFUL SCRIPTURES are those truly worthy of eternal peace ... only the devil works thru devious means and laws and restrictions ... only the devil would come out and have to prove himself ... but in our mind states we have it the other way around ... we all think god has to prove himself where as we acknowledge the devil without question ... the devil brought religion upon us to divide and conquer, that is the only way to explain why there is so many different religions in the world ... if there was one god, there would be one religion, but because all religions are from all corners of the globe, the devil strategised and conducted these religions teachings in different parts of the globe, and slowly but surely these people got closer to one another which caused conflict ... do any of you really think the state of religion today is how god intended or does it seem like something the devil would of created? ... god will have the final say, which is why im not scared

sorry to fuck ya thread up noel, just had to get shit off my chest :) and yes what i wrote sounds like garbage and no one will probably make any sense of it, but i find it hard to put my belief on this shit into words that make sense, thats the basis of what i mean


whats this kat on?......what would you think would have happened if noel or whoever called jesus an arsehole and there were christians in the forum? or called moses and asshole and they were jews in the forum?...they would all be more pissed then us so keep you predjudice and hate to yourself its not welcome in this thread, this forum, this planet, this fuckin universe

Longbongcilvaringz
05-19-2007, 01:39 PM
To me belief in a God and religion have little to do with one another. I don't see why you should expect everybody who believes in a God to adhere to a religion.


i was merely commenting that people reject religion as untrue but accept a religious beliefe none the less.

noel411
05-20-2007, 04:29 AM
i was merely commenting that people reject religion as untrue but accept a religious beliefe none the less.
But I don't accept a religious belief in this case. I do not believe in a God that resembles the central figure of any religion. I only believe there is likely some sort of "force" or "entity" in this universe which you could choose to call "God" if you so desired. Religions did not create the concept of the existence of God.

I mean that's basically like saying I shouldn't accept that stealing is "wrong" because it's a religious belief.

And not only that, but I also never said I disagree with everything that religions teach. I just don't support the concept of religion as a whole.

SID
05-20-2007, 06:08 AM
question for you noel....if you believe that some force or entity (supreme being) is somehow behind the scenes, do you think that he created us and just left us to our own devices, no guidence, no rules, no obligations? if he did something like that what would be the point of our existance? why are we created and left to think for ourselves when our my minds cant comprehend a fraction of the truth? do the evil paedophiles and rapists go to the same place as kind loving charity givers and people who adopt orphans? if thats so how could it be? what kind of force would he be if he dosent even give us a little hint that he is our creator? these are all questions you need to ask yourself if you believe in god but not religon (or a way of god) they are all diffrent structures from the same blueprint as i said in my previous post

SubtleEnergies
05-20-2007, 06:27 AM
Does this force go by many names including God and Allah and YHWH?

SID
05-20-2007, 06:31 AM
those are just names for god in other languages my friend

noel411
05-20-2007, 07:29 AM
if you believe that some force or entity (supreme being) is somehow behind the scenes, do you think that he created us and just left us to our own devices, no guidence, no rules, no obligations?I really can't comment on that. If there is something out there that might be titled "God" I don't know a single thing about it and won't make any assumptions about it. What I can tell you is that I do not believe in any sort of God that does require anything from us.
if he did something like that what would be the point of our existance?To experience life on this planet and discover who we are.
do the evil paedophiles and rapists go to the same place as kind loving charity givers and people who adopt orphans?Refer to my first comment in this post. Anything I can say about such matters is merely speculation. As for my belief in what happens when we pass on from this life, I think the next stage of being probably varies based upon how our mind has developed during our time here on earth. But ultimately I think we probably all end up in the same "place" or "state of being".
if thats so how could it be?I can tell you I have much more trouble accepting the theory that certain people go to certain "places" after they die, based upon how well they abide by some rules, or follow certain guidelines. And I have even more trouble accepting the theory that our ultimate destiny is based solely upon how we conduct ourselves in the life we are currently experiencing.
Does this force go by many names including God and Allah and YHWH?Actually I would prefer not to give it any name.

Like I said in an earlier post, nobody on this planet knows or even CAN know anything about an existence outside of what we experience here on earth. Anything we might suggest about such things is merely speculation. I for one prefer not to make assumptions about such things. Any comments I make about any sort of belief system including my own is merely an opinion and I do not intend to suggest that my or anyone else's views on such matters are either "right" or "wrong".

Longbongcilvaringz
05-20-2007, 09:36 AM
edit: its finished now.

do people here think religion has an overall positive or negative effect on society?

richard dawkins claims its a desease, not sure if i would agree with that/

SID
05-20-2007, 02:38 PM
richard dawkins is an intresting character ive been watching some of his material recently he has such confidence that god does not exist, and his "excuse" seems to be charles darwin everytime, the duke lived how many 100 years ago? and he takes his word on evoloution as gospel, he points out the many reasons why god does not exist, but dosent back them up with very influencing reasons...there was a very cool thing i heard though "there was a man walking down a field he saw a rock and dident think anything of it, he then walked past a pocketwatch on the floor he paused and was pondering how it got there, such a complicated device could not have mustered itself out of mid air, it must have had a watchmaker, if the watch needs a watchmaker how can people think that an animal any animal, a fly could have just appeared with no creation? its undoubtebly more complex then a watch, no matter how many times a ordinary man will try to make a watch he will not now how, there is only way, the same with humanity", a rough recall of the story i heard, pretty cool i think

Ultimate Fist
05-20-2007, 04:24 PM
edit: its finished now.

do people here think religion has an overall positive or negative effect on society?

richard dawkins claims its a desease, not sure if i would agree with that/

Religions is the institutionalization of something that does not need to be institutionalized. Every person has their own religion and organized religion does not change that because everyone practices there religion to different degrees and use different interpretations of scriptures and theologies to fit their views. Even if they do not do this conciously, they do it subconsciously, because we all have preconceived notions of how the universe and any deities that might exist would work/think. These preconceived notions affect what ideas make sense to us and therefore what we accept.

Religions furthermore do not clarify anything, as there are so many of them and there is no neon sign pointing to, "THE ONE TRUE FAITH", despite what the apologetics of them all says.

Koolish
05-20-2007, 09:59 PM
i find that most people who believe they know everything about why religion is wrong are usually those who know the least about what the religion is about.

the Judeo-Christian belief in a Supreme Being makes perfect sense to ME. i see nothing wrong with it.

people are shocked when they find out the Bible has some "scary" parts in it and declare there can not be a God if his book is not full of hugs and kisses. God is the Lord of this world, and this world is full of corruption, inhumane brutality, and blasphemy. most of which you can find in the Bible.

to fully describe a religion and its purpose is to delve into a philosophical debate i am not willing to partake in at the moment. so know this, i have posted my opinion here and do not wish to debate with you about yours. i am forcing nothing upon anyone, if it seems that i have then i beg your forgiveness and ask you take my statements however you want to.

SubtleEnergies
05-20-2007, 11:43 PM
I agree with Noel, I tihnk one of the mistakes people make is taking a certain person who claims to have had an experience of this force and taking their word to be the truth. People even exaggerate and misexplain mundane experiences.

noel411
05-21-2007, 06:45 PM
do people here think religion has an overall positive or negative effect on society?
On society? Hmmm, hard to say. People are gonna fuck up this world with or without religion. No doubt religion causes separation and conflict, but both those things would probably exist on just as high a level without religion.

But on an individual level, I think it has an excessively negative effect on self development, exploration of the self, and spiritual development.

But in the end, humans are fucken idiots by nature, and this world would be fucked with or without religion.
richard dawkins is an intresting character ive been watching some of his material recently he has such confidence that god does not exist, and his "excuse" seems to be charles darwin everytime, the duke lived how many 100 years ago? and he takes his word on evoloution as gospel, he points out the many reasons why god does not exist, but dosent back them up with very influencing reasons
Atheism is basically just another religion. Only it assumes a truth opposite to what religions assume.
Religions is the institutionalization of something that does not need to be institutionalized. Every person has their own religion and organized religion does not change that because everyone practices there religion to different degrees and use different interpretations of scriptures and theologies to fit their views. Even if they do not do this conciously, they do it subconsciously, because we all have preconceived notions of how the universe and any deities that might exist would work/think. These preconceived notions affect what ideas make sense to us and therefore what we accept.

Religions furthermore do not clarify anything, as there are so many of them and there is no neon sign pointing to, "THE ONE TRUE FAITH", despite what the apologetics of them all says.
Good post.
I agree with Noel, I tihnk one of the mistakes people make is taking a certain person who claims to have had an experience of this force and taking their word to be the truth. People even exaggerate and misexplain mundane experiences.
Word. If I had an NDE and thought my soul traveled to place where children were sitting around smoking crack while God did covers of Michael Jackson songs while performing a slightly flawed version of the moonwalk, do you think anybody would be willing to accept that as a glimpse of the “afterlife”? No, they’d only accept it if what I saw was in accordance with their beliefs.

Like I said, we CANNOT KNOW anything outside of this life. We can only speculate and assume.

diggy
05-21-2007, 07:46 PM
I really can't comment on that. If there is something out there that might be titled "God" I don't know a single thing about it and won't make any assumptions about it. What I can tell you is that I do not believe in any sort of God that does require anything from us.
To experience life on this planet and discover who we are.
Refer to my first comment in this post. Anything I can say about such matters is merely speculation. As for my belief in what happens when we pass on from this life, I think the next stage of being probably varies based upon how our mind has developed during our time here on earth. But ultimately I think we probably all end up in the same "place" or "state of being".
I can tell you I have much more trouble accepting the theory that certain people go to certain "places" after they die, based upon how well they abide by some rules, or follow certain guidelines. And I have even more trouble accepting the theory that our ultimate destiny is based solely upon how we conduct ourselves in the life we are currently experiencing.
Actually I would prefer not to give it any name.

Like I said in an earlier post, nobody on this planet knows or even CAN know anything about an existence outside of what we experience here on earth. Anything we might suggest about such things is merely speculation. I for one prefer not to make assumptions about such things. Any comments I make about any sort of belief system including my own is merely an opinion and I do not intend to suggest that my or anyone else's views on such matters are either "right" or "wrong".


Evasive mofo.

SubtleEnergies
05-21-2007, 09:30 PM
BTW Noel, I believe in "heaven" and "hell" however I don't believe they are otherworldy at all.

noel411
05-22-2007, 03:05 AM
Evasive mofo.
I'm evasive because I don't make assumptions about things I can know nothing about? What am I trying to evade anyway?
BTW Noel, I believe in "heaven" and "hell" however I don't believe they are otherworldy at all.
I think I understand what you may mean by this statement.

Longbongcilvaringz
05-22-2007, 01:05 PM
well atheism is not "just like another religion", its a choice not to belief in something which is fabricated.

it is not a belief at all, its just not believing in something which is undeniably "made up". religious people cannot deny the fact that religion is a constructed thing, we do not know the intentions or beliefs of the authors of such publications as the bible/koran etc. but it is true that they couldnt have witnessed or have known all that they profess to know.

many people i have spoken to have a "why not" attitude to religion which is simply idiotic. you believe something because it might be true? or because you dont like alternative versions of events?

what if you based your entire life around making decisions in this manner? its like believing in magic because there is no evidence against it. religion is put on some pedestal as if it is infallible and almighty, when people apply to it completely different system of logic than they do to all other aspects of their lives. it will never cease to confuse me as to why people do this.

i have not read the old testament, as noel has, mostly out of disinterest. i understand it will further my understanding of religion, but currently i dont have the motivation to do so.

however, i have a question to people that have, because i am truly ignorant on this matter.

how do the people who wrote the old testament claim to know all the things they have written on?

is there any explanation of this?

the new testament can be explained i assume because of the person who was Jesus of Nazareth (as he historically did exist).

if someone could tell me this it would be appreciated.

on a whole, i think religious texts are held in unwarranted high regard by a lot of people, and in almost all cases are not viewed as critically as you would anything else.

im sure this thread could turn into a atheist vs religious person debate, but i dont think it should. hopefully nobody responds to this post with hostility as im not trying to be hostile.

Visionz
05-22-2007, 05:39 PM
well atheism is not "just like another religion", its a choice not to belief in something which is fabricated.

it is not a belief at all, its just not believing in something which is undeniably "made up". religious people cannot deny the fact that religion is a constructed thing, we do not know the intentions or beliefs of the authors of such publications as the bible/koran etc. but it is true that they couldnt have witnessed or have known all that they profess to know.
^why not? if you've got a direct line to the creator of all reality why would there be any limitations to the knowledge you have access to?

many people i have spoken to have a "why not" attitude to religion which is simply idiotic. you believe something because it might be true? or because you dont like alternative versions of events?
^for me the evidence of God is in the universal laws that govern everything. Throw a rock in the air and it will fall a million times over. The laws that are true here on Earth are in effect for the entire universe. Intuition tells me the reason for this is that it all has a single source. Recently was watching about the Disclosure Project on youtube. They (former CIA and such) were saying that they've identified around 50 or so species and that many of them were humanoid to the point where you wouldn't realize them as being any different if they were standing right next to you. That life forms would end up exactly the same through evolution on planets light years away from us, to me, is no coicendence but rather further evidence of divine purpose.

what if you based your entire life around making decisions in this manner? its like believing in magic because there is no evidence against it. religion is put on some pedestal as if it is infallible and almighty, when people apply to it completely different system of logic than they do to all other aspects of their lives. it will never cease to confuse me as to why people do this.
^I always have that mindset that everything is connected, religous text reinforce this train of thought but the supporting evidence is everywhere


i have not read the old testament, as noel has, mostly out of disinterest. i understand it will further my understanding of religion, but currently i dont have the motivation to do so.

however, i have a question to people that have, because i am truly ignorant on this matter.

how do the people who wrote the old testament claim to know all the things they have written on?

^in most cases God spoke to them directly

is there any explanation of this?
^yes,
the new testament can be explained i assume because of the person who was Jesus of Nazareth (as he historically did exist).

if someone could tell me this it would be appreciated.

on a whole, i think religious texts are held in unwarranted high regard by a lot of people, and in almost all cases are not viewed as critically as you would anything else.

^no offense but you'd atleast have to read them to reasonably draw that conclusion but personally there's a lot of life lessons in these religous text, if someone had no moral foundation within their life and needed guidance, the explanations there (with a correct mindstate) would help, the bad side of this happens when people get overzealous and judgemental (if they learned the lessons corectly then that wouldn't happen but what can you do? theres some fucked up people out there)

im sure this thread could turn into a atheist vs religious person debate, but i dont think it should. hopefully nobody responds to this post with hostility as im not trying to be hostile..

noel411
05-22-2007, 06:11 PM
well atheism is not "just like another religion", its a choice not to belief in something which is fabricated.

it is not a belief at all, its just not believing in something which is undeniably "made up". religious people cannot deny the fact that religion is a constructed thing, we do not know the intentions or beliefs of the authors of such publications as the bible/koran etc. but it is true that they couldnt have witnessed or have known all that they profess to know.
Let me explain what I meant by that comment. First of all, atheism is NOT a term used to describe those who don’t believe in religious teachings. It is a term used in connection with those who don’t believe in the existence of God. As I said previously, the theory of there being a God is not a religious concept. Atheists make the assumption that there is NO God. This is the same as religious people who make the assumption that there IS a God. It’s the direct opposite, but both make assumptions about something they can know nothing about. Many atheists even try to “prove” that God does not exist, which is every bit as futile as religious people trying to prove that God DOES exist. There’s a balance between the two, and people have decided to title it “agnosticism”. Agnostics are those who believe (accept?) that we cannot know whether or not God exists. This is the category most so called “atheists” truly belong in, but many of them think it is cool to claim to be an atheist, without even really knowing what that means, or actually thinking about why or why not they may (dis)believe in God.

SubtleEnergies
05-23-2007, 02:03 AM
This conversation is kinda pointless in my point of view. I don't think any of the prophets believed in anything beyond this life.

I also think most people religious or otherwise have no really taken a deep look into any particular religions (yes, this means all you Muslims and Christians who have barely read your own holy books, and haven't even attempted to reconcile the teachings with science, logic or other belief systems) to make a judgment.

Really, who cares what we think. At the end of the day we are held respnsible (in some sense) for the views we hold. Start worrying about that whatever you believe.

SID
05-23-2007, 09:52 AM
This conversation is kinda pointless


yes it is, it got off okay but just went downhill

Longbongcilvaringz
05-23-2007, 12:00 PM
.



thankyou for partly answering my questions.

so god spoke directly to these people in the old testament?

Longbongcilvaringz
05-23-2007, 12:02 PM
Let me explain what I meant by that comment. First of all, atheism is NOT a term used to describe those who don’t believe in religious teachings. It is a term used in connection with those who don’t believe in the existence of God. As I said previously, the theory of there being a God is not a religious concept. Atheists make the assumption that there is NO God. This is the same as religious people who make the assumption that there IS a God. It’s the direct opposite, but both make assumptions about something they can know nothing about. Many atheists even try to “prove” that God does not exist, which is every bit as futile as religious people trying to prove that God DOES exist. There’s a balance between the two, and people have decided to title it “agnosticism”. Agnostics are those who believe (accept?) that we cannot know whether or not God exists. This is the category most so called “atheists” truly belong in, but many of them think it is cool to claim to be an atheist, without even really knowing what that means, or actually thinking about why or why not they may (dis)believe in God.

i think your completely incorrect, but i dont think your thread should be derailed by my opposition so i'll leave it at that.

Golden_Armz
05-23-2007, 01:13 PM
I don't think any of the prophets believed in anything beyond this life.

what do you mean by this?

SubtleEnergies
05-24-2007, 03:53 AM
I think ALL major religions use metaphors. I believe "heaven" and "paradise" are the same as the Buddhist term Nirvana. That you transcend death (ie. "eternal life"). This can be seen by the saying of the Sufis (Muslim mystics) that a person should "Die before death comes." Also in the hadiths (I think it was, not 100% sure) it says you can only enter paradise 9/10ths or something while alive, but in the grave you go all they way. The Koran also says "Paradise and Hell begin in this life." This is the same as Nirvana in Buddhism, you can reach Nirvana while alive but only when you actually die is is the full release. Also, a Buddha doesn't die (he does physically of course) but since there is no self, nothing actually experiences a death. Also, most people would agree that paradise and hell aren't physical places but metaphors.

This view is further backed up by Jesus. If you read the gnostic gospels (alot of good relevant quotes are in the thread I posted the link to in this thread) it is quite obvious Jesus wasn't just talking about a simple heaven and hell Sunday school type thing. He was dealing with duality and transcending it. Here is a Jesus quote:
Light and Darkness, life and death, right and left, are brothers of one another. They are inseparable.Because of this neither are the good good, nor evil evil, nor is life life, nor death death. For this reason each one will dissolve into its original nature. But those who are exalted above the world are indissoluble, eternal.

This view sounds alot more Eastern than what we usually get out of Jesus. I personally think he was teaching the same stuff just in Metaphors.

The Tibetan Book of the Dead breaks down the dying process into different stages and mixes it with myth.

Also, these prophets don't seem to me like idiots. I don't think they would expect us to believe in anything other worldly, or have faith in ideas that made no sense. I think they gave us metaphors, I think they would prefer we question them and take a deeper understanding which actually benefits us, rather than accept a fairy tale.

As we all agree, no matter what you believe there is NO WAY to prove a life after death. In fact if you examine what we do know logically it seems pretty unlikely that you will have any type of perception 10 years after worms eat you brain out. I do however believe in eternal life by transcending death.

diggy
05-24-2007, 11:41 AM
I think ALL major religions use metaphors. I believe "heaven" and "paradise" are the same as the Buddhist term Nirvana. That you transcend death (ie. "eternal life"). This can be seen by the saying of the Sufis (Muslim mystics) that a person should "Die before death comes." Also in the hadiths (I think it was, not 100% sure) it says you can only enter paradise 9/10ths or something while alive, but in the grave you go all they way. The Koran also says "Paradise and Hell begin in this life." This is the same as Nirvana in Buddhism, you can reach Nirvana while alive but only when you actually die is is the full release. Also, a Buddha doesn't die (he does physically of course) but since there is no self, nothing actually experiences a death. Also, most people would agree that paradise and hell aren't physical places but metaphors.

This view is further backed up by Jesus. If you read the gnostic gospels (alot of good relevant quotes are in the thread I posted the link to in this thread) it is quite obvious Jesus wasn't just talking about a simple heaven and hell Sunday school type thing. He was dealing with duality and transcending it. Here is a Jesus quote:
Light and Darkness, life and death, right and left, are brothers of one another. They are inseparable.Because of this neither are the good good, nor evil evil, nor is life life, nor death death. For this reason each one will dissolve into its original nature. But those who are exalted above the world are indissoluble, eternal.

This view sounds alot more Eastern than what we usually get out of Jesus. I personally think he was teaching the same stuff just in Metaphors.

The Tibetan Book of the Dead breaks down the dying process into different stages and mixes it with myth.

Also, these prophets don't seem to me like idiots. I don't think they would expect us to believe in anything other worldly, or have faith in ideas that made no sense. I think they gave us metaphors, I think they would prefer we question them and take a deeper understanding which actually benefits us, rather than accept a fairy tale.

As we all agree, no matter what you believe there is NO WAY to prove a life after death. In fact if you examine what we do know logically it seems pretty unlikely that you will have any type of perception 10 years after worms eat you brain out. I do however believe in eternal life by transcending death.



How do I know their is a life after death? Cuz god says so. Logically, their should b a life after death. Cuz if there is not one, there is no point in living; there is no point in suffereing.

Metaphysically speaking, when u wake up in the morning from sleep ( a limited death), u are resurrected again. If yur body can also regenerate cells, is that not life after death?

Yu say it is unlikely that u will have any perception after worms eat yur brains out, but that is assuming that you are the brain. But I am not my brain; my brain is an organ which allows my physical body to function. Like when I dream I am in a certain place, I am not perceiving with my eyes or other physical senses, I'm perceiving with my self, my soul.

I do believe I have what some call a soul or "my self". I can see things in my mind (not my brain), which some philosophers believe is not located in the brain or any particular region in the body, but is bigger and transends the body. My soul which is invisible (cuz nobody has seen their tru self or another's tru self visually with the physical eye) is not part of the physical world. It is beyond the physical. Because when I die, I will still be alive.

SubtleEnergies
05-25-2007, 04:43 AM
^ Your reasoning is fucked up.

For one thing I just proved that it is a great possibility God does not say that at all but you are hearing what you want to.

Next, if you are in a deep sleep there is no conciousness even in sleep, and you only know about that unconciousness because you re-awaken. If you stayed like that you would have no perception. How much more so when the entire body shuts down.

Next, why the hell is life pointless if there is no life after death? Death gives meaning to life. It makes life so valuable to those who live it.

Also, what you call a soul, even you don't know what you are talking about. That's just a nice catchy word. If you think about it you wil realise the closest thing to that is pure awareness perhaps, where you are one with everything. The pure part of you. But this is WELL beyond the ego. I believe that is what transcends death, but it sure as hell ain't you as you think of yourself.

I won't discuss this any further unless you are willing to stick to logic and facts. You can BELIEVE whatever you want, but most of what you stated above has little factual backing. The fact that you have some "feeling" that "your self" won't die to me means shit all, in fact it is probably just the egos defence against its own mortality.

Longbongcilvaringz
05-25-2007, 11:21 AM
How do I know their is a life after death? Cuz god says so. Logically, their should b a life after death. Cuz if there is not one, there is no point in living; there is no point in suffereing.




hahaha, sorry but thats hilarious.

human are so fucking arrogant and self obsessed. maybe your here, to reproduce and just die, why are you any different from the rest of the organisms on this earth. life is not suffering, this is another negative aspects which i find i cant relate to in religion, you live your life cautiously attempting not to offend a god so you can have a great afterlife. enjoy your life people, theres a chance your wrong about the afterlife, so why bother suffering?

is there life after death for other animals apart from humans?

SubtleEnergies
05-25-2007, 08:43 PM
^ Exactly.