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Huggasaurus Sex
09-25-2007, 08:54 PM
cash rules everything around you and everyone you know. everyone knows that money is important because it allows us to exchange it for the things we need, but most people haven't got a clue as to how it actually works. how did pieces of paper come to symbolize value? how is money created today? why does it lose value over time?

do these questions matter to you? or are the mechanics of money irrelevant?

Visionz
09-25-2007, 09:38 PM
is this a quiz? I figure in asking the questions you already know atleast most the answers.

You have to have something beyond battering to represent value. It's alot easier to go to the market not having to carry around a cow, tv, etc. Paper's new but we've (humans) have used all kinds of things for that representation (shells, salt, stone discs, etc) We had a gold standard here in the US up until, I think the early 40's (or atleast some time around there) Now it's soley the idea of worth that gives the dollar any power and is based upon our economic strength and such.


Money looses value because the federal reserve has a tendency to overprint the paper (really a type of cloth) that isn't backed by anything of actual value which causes inflation.

The mechanics of money are very interesting and perhaps vital. The thing that trips me out most is that even though the dollar is the foundation for our entire economy we don't even actually print it ourselves, afterall the Federal Reserve is a Privately owned bank. I think going back to printing our own money would be a start to seizing back the power that corperations have gained within our own borders.


I realize these are over-simplied statements to a certaion degree but the money-changers of old are still fucking up the world today.

Huggasaurus Sex
09-25-2007, 10:34 PM
i just wanted to generate a discussion about one of the most fundamental but least understood aspects of our lives. so it's not a quiz... but there will be a movie! ;)

it's true that using small, lightweight objects to symbolize value is more convenient than carrying around everything you own, but how do you convince someone that an inherently worthless object symbolizes value? the gold standard is the key. in the US, federal reserve notes (dollar bills) used to be exchangable for some specified amount of gold. but nixon nixed that idea in 71 and since then the dollar has magically maintained its status as an exchange currency based on nothing more than collective trust.

inflation is really no different than a variable tax. to sustain economic growth, the federal reserve (which is a quasi-governmental agency) lowers the interest rate at which it lends to the nation's banks and more money makes its way into circulation (more on that later). since we're no longer on the gold standard, the fed can cut interest rates as low as it wants without worrying about depleting our gold reserves. and as the market reacts to the increased money supply, the commodities you buy become more expensive.

so each additional dollar that is added to the money supply devalues the dollars you currently hold in your wallet and bank account. an inflation rate of 3% means that 3% of the money you earn over the course of the year is lost. inflation is an inescapable tax.

does any of this matter?

WARPATH
09-25-2007, 10:39 PM
Cash doesn't rule everything around me.

But it sure does help.

Huggasaurus Sex
09-25-2007, 10:45 PM
cash rules you in ways you don't even know about

Visionz
09-25-2007, 11:40 PM
i just wanted to generate a discussion about one of the most fundamental but least understood aspects of our lives. so it's not a quiz... but there will be a movie! ;)

it's true that using small, lightweight objects to symbolize value is more convenient than carrying around everything you own, but how do you convince someone that an inherently worthless object symbolizes value? the gold standard is the key. in the US, federal reserve notes (dollar bills) used to be exchangable for some specified amount of gold. but nixon nixed that idea in 71 and since then the dollar has magically maintained its status as an exchange currency based on nothing more than collective trust.

inflation is really no different than a variable tax. to sustain economic growth, the federal reserve (which is a quasi-governmental agency) lowers the interest rate at which it lends to the nation's banks and more money makes its way into circulation (more on that later). since we're no longer on the gold standard, the fed can cut interest rates as low as it wants without worrying about depleting our gold reserves. and as the market reacts to the increased money supply, the commodities you buy become more expensive.

so each additional dollar that is added to the money supply devalues the dollars you currently hold in your wallet and bank account. an inflation rate of 3% means that 3% of the money you earn over the course of the year is lost. inflation is an inescapable tax.

does any of this matter?money itself is based on trust in reality. I go to work and trust that the money I receive in return will pay my rent. Sucks that I couldn't give 'em a towel and tell them there's at least $10,000 worth of dollar-making material in that bitch.


as for interest rates and inflation, well it sucks and it seems to be a game you can never get ahead of unless your making an assload of money. Wages don't move with speed of inflation (minimum wage went up what, fifteen years ago?) and I'm sure this aids in widening the gap between rich and poor, something our goverment should be doing everything in it's power to correct.

Huggasaurus Sex
09-26-2007, 12:00 AM
well roman money, for example, actually contained gold and other precious metals. the coins had inherent value, but in order to fund construction and the empire's military conquests, less and less of the precious metals were used and this of course resulted in extreme inflation (and ultimately played a significant role in the fall of the empire).

once you factor in inflation, the average wage in this country has actually declined over the past 10 years or so. the rich get around this by investing in hard commodities and inflation-indexed bonds which shield their bank accounts from the inflation that eats away at your CD or savings account.

TeknicelStylez
09-26-2007, 12:20 AM
Wow Huggah I didn't know you were actually semi-intelligent. Good thread.

Big Risk
09-26-2007, 12:20 AM
I steal everything. including internet and cable. so i dunno if it rules EVERYTHING.

Huggasaurus Sex
09-26-2007, 12:25 AM
well you wouldn't have to steal it if you had the cash right?

WARPATH
09-26-2007, 03:00 AM
cash rules you in ways you don't even know about

Explain.


well you wouldn't have to steal it if you had the cash right?

You don't need cash because you can plunder, or share, or HUG!

Big Risk
09-26-2007, 03:10 AM
well you wouldn't have to steal it if you had the cash right?

I have the money, i just dont pay for it.....

Huggasaurus Sex
09-26-2007, 10:45 AM
I steal everything. including internet and cable. so i dunno if it rules EVERYTHING.

well you wouldn't have to steal it if you had the cash right?I have the money, i just dont pay for it.....

so then did you also steal your computer and tv? because internet access and cable reception would be pretty useless without those objects.


cash rules you in ways you don't even know about

Explain.

it's easy to see how the physical objects around you relate to cash, but what about the people you love? how can you get a decent woman if you look like a bum? how can you get married if you can't afford a place to live? how can you raise children without the money to support them? how would your relationship with your family change if you decided that money was no longer a priority and you'd work only enough to keep yourself alive?

WARPATH
09-26-2007, 11:18 AM
so then did you also steal your computer and tv? because internet access and cable reception would be pretty useless without those objects.

Yes, I jacked all this shit.


it's easy to see how the physical objects around you relate to cash, but what about the people you love?
how can you get a decent woman if you look like a bum?

You can get a woman if you have some heavy game. I pull some bad ass women even when I rock salvation army clothes.

how can you get married if you can't afford a place to live?

Just get married, and build her a shelter.

how can you raise children without the money to support them?

Hunt and farm to provide food and clothing.

how would your relationship with your family change if you decided that money was no longer a priority and you'd work only enough to keep yourself alive?

I wouldn't be so selfish to put myself before my family, but that still doesn't mean cash rules everything around this mother fucker.

living_undead
09-26-2007, 11:22 AM
money is like a drug that keeps you alive.
even if you dont want it,
theres not much you can do without it.

Dough Snatcher
09-26-2007, 11:41 AM
Great discussion question...It is crazy how lives are lost over green backs...

Huggasaurus Sex
09-26-2007, 11:54 AM
cash doesn't rule everything around slippy because he can find a bad ass woman who loves his salvation army stylez and move to some remote region of the world, far from civilization, build a shelter, hunt, and farm using stolen tools and produce enough food to support his family, which he always puts before himself.

but for everybody else... cash still rules everything around you

TeknicelStylez
09-26-2007, 12:20 PM
William Thoreau style, with a family involved though.

Cash Definately Rules Everything Around Me, I aint even gonna front, I was even gonna get it tatted on my back with a picture of the globe with a dollar sign on it.

CREAM GET THE MONEY!

Visionz
09-26-2007, 12:22 PM
any word on those Ameros or whatever name they're using for the currency they're gonna use across US, Canada, & Mexico?

TeknicelStylez
09-26-2007, 12:33 PM
Isn't this supposed to start some sort of war or something. One theorist I remember was saying that, there would be a war over the currency Euro, and I'm guessin Ameros'. Prolly gonna be crazy.

EAGLE EYE
09-26-2007, 12:55 PM
what the hell is gonna happen when big brother starts injecting RFID chips into our finger tips at birth so that we have a hard coded ID which can be associated with our bank account, criminal history, employment history, credit, and places we've traveled during an average day?


transistors rule everything around us?

TeknicelStylez
09-26-2007, 01:01 PM
Lmao 2010 remix TREAM

Art-Official
09-26-2007, 01:13 PM
I steal everything. including internet and cable. so i dunno if it rules EVERYTHING.

you also posted your address on this forum.

I have notified the police.

Huggasaurus Sex
09-26-2007, 01:25 PM
any word on those Ameros or whatever name they're using for the currency they're gonna use across US, Canada, & Mexico?

don't tell me you got that info from heat's thread...

we already have a currency that can be used across the US, canada, and mexico -- it's called the US dollar.

rfid chips implanted at birth??? :? would you let someone implant a rfid chip in your child at birth?

EAGLE EYE
09-26-2007, 01:49 PM
don't tell me you got that info from heat's thread...

we already have a currency that can be used across the US, canada, and mexico -- it's called the US dollar.

rfid chips implanted at birth??? :? would you let someone implant a rfid chip in your child at birth?


Our government doesnt give a fuck. Their excuse would be that its a necessary step towards people in this country having a national identity. If Congress wants to make it a law for doctors to implant it, then it could definetly happen.

Visionz
09-26-2007, 02:45 PM
don't tell me you got that info from heat's thread...

we already have a currency that can be used across the US, canada, and mexico -- it's called the US dollar.

rfid chips implanted at birth??? :? would you let someone implant a rfid chip in your child at birth?
I've heard of the idea in various locations (& yeah, Heat's thread might have been one of 'em) It's the thing where the idea always comes before the action. The idea itself is being heavily discussed (about 3/4 of a million hits when you take Julie out the search) Alot of it is bullshit retreads of dis-information but at the same time there might be something to it. Bankers penis envy of the EU perhaps.

Hypothetically speaking, what kind of impact would you see that having on North America? Would our economy lift up those of Canada & Mexico or would they be dragging us down with them?

IrOnMaN
09-26-2007, 03:10 PM
Money makes the world go round. Without cash money, you're nothing. I know it's a harsh statement, but it's the truth.

Huggasaurus Sex
09-26-2007, 03:24 PM
Hypothetically speaking, what kind of impact would you see that having on North America? Would our economy lift up those of Canada & Mexico or would they be dragging us down with them?

well it would decrease the cost of doing business between the 3 countries but aside from that i don't know what effects it would have. and anyone who tells you they know exactly what would happen is shitting you. the uncertainty comes from the shaky status of the US dollar. it's served as the world's reserve currency for the past 60 years but it's currently near all-time lows against many major currencies and there's good reason to believe that its value will continue to fall.

Visionz
09-26-2007, 04:06 PM
well it would decrease the cost of doing business between the 3 countries but aside from that i don't know what effects it would have. and anyone who tells you they know exactly what would happen is shitting you. the uncertainty comes from the shaky status of the US dollar. it's served as the world's reserve currency for the past 60 years but it's currently near all-time lows against many major currencies and there's good reason to believe that its value will continue to fall.........while my pay stays the same and the rent increases. uggghhh, should I be planning my exodus to escape America now? Seems like we're sitting on a bubble that's about to pop. When it does, I have a feeling its going to make the great depression look like a cake walk.

TeknicelStylez
09-26-2007, 07:01 PM
^^^Most definately, I'm already looking for ways to get the fuck out of here. It's pretty hard with almost no documentation of yourself and insufficient financial status. Free country my nuts...

EAGLE EYE
09-26-2007, 07:09 PM
lets all go to new zealand , cuz most people forget it exists

WARPATH
09-26-2007, 08:51 PM
cash doesn't rule everything around slippy because he can find a bad ass women(plural) who loves his salvation army stylez and move to some remote region of the world, far from civilization, build a shelter, hunt, and farm using stolen tools and produce enough food to support his family, which he always puts before himself.

but for everybody else... cash still rules everything around you

Yup. It's called the good life.

http://www.i4m.com/think/jpeg/hbo_big_love_polygamy.jpg

Ask my dad:


http://i.realone.com/assets/rn/img/1/2/5/4/15254521-15254524-large.jpg

"I endorse this message!"

WU-JUNKIE760
09-29-2007, 08:07 PM
This is a real good thread...peace to the Know The Ledge section...

Longbongcilvaringz
09-30-2007, 01:09 PM
cash is just a convenient thing to use, its doesnt rule anything.

regardless of the physical manifestation of worth, it will always exist.

i love how people enscribe some kind of personification to money, as if it has a mind of it's own and can control and destroy your lives and the 'corporations' are harnessing its power to take over the world.

seriously though. the fact that money is worth nothing on face value is of no significance, its just a representation.

Huggasaurus Sex
09-30-2007, 06:59 PM
cash is just a convenient thing to use, its doesnt rule anything.

regardless of the physical manifestation of worth, it will always exist.

i love how people enscribe some kind of personification to money, as if it has a mind of it's own and can control and destroy your lives and the 'corporations' are harnessing its power to take over the world.

seriously though. the fact that money is worth nothing on face value is of no significance, its just a representation.

no disrespect but you don't know what you're talking about. as far as your last point, you have to realize that there's a tremendous difference between a medium of exchange with intrinsic value, such as gold coins in rome, and our fiat paper currency which simply represents value. a gold coin not only makes transactions more convenient than without it, but it can also be used as a store of value. if/when the empire collapses, that gold coin still maintains its value, even if future issuances of roman coins contain less gold. in fact, that gold coin would maintain its relative exchange value even today. our currency is different though. if you hold onto a dollar bill, it will eventually become worthless due to inflation.

here's a question for you: how does a country pay for its massive trade imbalance, expanding social programs, unneccessary overseas wars, and disaster relief all while lowering taxes? if we were still tied to the gold standard, the debt would be so bad that we couldn't possibly pay for it without substantially raising taxes. but since we're no longer tied to the gold standard, what will eventually end up happening is that the mint will run the printing presses and use debased currency to pay for our massive debts. hooray for free money!

if you were born in the 80's and live in america then you have no idea what inflation is, but you will. you think gas prices are high now? just wait a few more years and see how much that dollar in your pocket buys.

WARPATH
09-30-2007, 09:40 PM
no disrespect but you don't know what you're talking about. as far as your last point, you have to realize that there's a tremendous difference between a medium of exchange with intrinsic value, such as gold coins in rome, and our fiat paper currency which simply represents value. a gold coin not only makes transactions more convenient than without it, but it can also be used as a store of value. if/when the empire collapses, that gold coin still maintains its value, even if future issuances of roman coins contain less gold. in fact, that gold coin would maintain its relative exchange value even today. our currency is different though. if you hold onto a dollar bill, it will eventually become worthless due to inflation.

here's a question for you: how does a country pay for its massive trade imbalance, expanding social programs, unneccessary overseas wars, and disaster relief all while lowering taxes? if we were still tied to the gold standard, the debt would be so bad that we couldn't possibly pay for it without substantially raising taxes. but since we're no longer tied to the gold standard, what will eventually end up happening is that the mint will run the printing presses and use debased currency to pay for our massive debts. hooray for free money!

if you were born in the 80's and live in america then you have no idea what inflation is, but you will. you think gas prices are high now? just wait a few more years and see how much that dollar in your pocket buys.

That's why money's value is just an illusion.

Money rules you if you let it.

Huggasaurus Sex
09-30-2007, 10:12 PM
That's why money's value is just an illusion.

Money rules you if you let it.

yeah but just think about how much of your life is devoted to either making money or spending it. most people work at least 8 hours a day. and once you also consider transportation time, most people end up spending the majority of their waking day devoted to making money, monday to friday. and if you have phone/utility bills, car payments/insurance, rent/mortgage, then you're literally spending money every second of the day. and how about all that money you owe on your credit card, student loans, etc?

if you work 40 hours or more a week and don't enjoy what you do... then cash rules you. if you enjoy your job, but find yourself constantly wishing you could afford a better car, house, and other material items, then cash rules you. if you're in debt, then cash rules you.

it's unavoidable. the best you can do is do what slippy does and just pretend it's not that important.

Longbongcilvaringz
10-02-2007, 02:22 PM
no offense, but you have no idea what you're talking about because you are constantly missing the point and attributing some ridiculous characteristics to money. money is just a means of trade.

if money didnt exist in its current form, there would be another form by which we trade.

the thing is, they are all essentially the same, and i still dont know what your fucking point is.

and i think you've missed the idea of inflation... because you feel as though people continue to recieve the same wage... but prices increase?

money is not important in isolation. pocessions are.

since people use money to obtain pocession, it is important.

aside from that im not sure what you're trying to say.

as for the printing of money, you're acting as if the fact that money can be prined to pay off debt is some kind of revelation.

shinobi4227
10-02-2007, 02:41 PM
Some of you have forgotten the real meaning of money especially the thread stater. "Money is any good or token that functions as a medium of exchange that is socially and legally accepted in payment for goods and services and in settlement of debts. Money also serves as a standard of value for measuring the relative worth of different goods and services". So when you say "cash rules everythin around me" it's because you let it. Yes, money is very important in our live because we need it to obtain what we want with no questions asked.

Huggasaurus Sex
10-02-2007, 03:20 PM
no offense, but you have no idea what you're talking about because you are constantly missing the point and attributing some ridiculous characteristics to money. money is just a means of trade.

not sure why you downplay the significance of money. yes it's a representative object but it's the most important one ever created. it's a cornerstone of modern human societies.

if money didnt exist in its current form, there would be another form by which we trade.

the thing is, they are all essentially the same, and i still dont know what your fucking point is.

yes all forms of money are essentially the same, if they serve as a medium of exchange, but just like people who are "essentially the same" there are important differences between the various forms. reread my example of fiat money vs. money with intrinsic value (gold) to see how these two forms of money relate to inflation.

and i think you've missed the idea of inflation... because you feel as though people continue to recieve the same wage... but prices increase?

huh? wages have been stagnant which means that while they have increased in nominal terms, once you factor in inflation, the median real wage is about the same as it was 10 years ago.

money is not important in isolation. pocessions are.

since people use money to obtain pocession, it is important.

aside from that im not sure what you're trying to say.

so since no one lives in isolation, you agree that money is important for everyone because without it they couldn't afford to buy the things they need. that's what i'm saying. now going back to my initial post, i'm wondering why most people know so little about the history and mechanics of money even though it's such a fundamental part of modern life. the purpose of this thread is to shed light on some of these things.

as for the printing of money, you're acting as if the fact that money can be printed to pay off debt is some kind of revelation.

no actually money can't just be printed to pay off debt -- not without causing rampant inflation that seriously disrupts the functioning of society. the massive debt that germany incurred after WWI led to out of control inflation when the weimar republic tried repaying its debts with debased money. the economic straits this caused subsequently set the stage for hitler's rise to power.

the US national debt currently stands at about $9,000,000,000,000 and has been increasing at almost $1.5 billion a day. what's gonna happen when it comes time to actually pay off that debt?

Huggasaurus Sex
10-02-2007, 03:25 PM
Some of you have forgotten the real meaning of money especially the thread stater. "Money is any good or token that functions as a medium of exchange that is socially and legally accepted in payment for goods and services and in settlement of debts. Money also serves as a standard of value for measuring the relative worth of different goods and services". So when you say "cash rules everythin around me" it's because you let it. Yes, money is very important in our live because we need it to obtain what we want with no questions asked.

great you can quote from a dictionary. thanks for your contribution.

PS my dad died in the world trade center. nice sig.

Longbongcilvaringz
10-02-2007, 03:33 PM
i didnt say money is printed off to pay debt, but i could be.

anyway, i'll just put out my answer to the questions:

- breaking down a complex system, banks 'make' money.

- it has come to symbolise value because orgininally 'money' was just a piece of paper which signified at quantitative amount of gold etc. this has evolved into the current system.

- money loses valeu over time because more of it is generated (through banking...)


im still unsure of what your point about money 'ruling' is though....

money is important in exchange, and in obtaining pocessions.

but i can't see how it rules people lives.

from another perspective, sure, people go to work every day to get money, and they use it to obtain the material goods that they want and need.

but not wanting to sound cliched, but there is a lot more to most peoples lives than pocessions.

shinobi4227
10-02-2007, 03:34 PM
great you can quote from a dictionary. thanks for your contribution.

PS my dad died in the world trade center. nice sig.

Kiss my ass if you lying. But imma change it tho.

Huggasaurus Sex
10-02-2007, 03:54 PM
i didnt say money is printed off to pay debt, but i could be.

anyway, i'll just put out my answer to the questions:

- breaking down a complex system, banks 'make' money.
by lending it

- it has come to symbolise value because orgininally 'money' was just a piece of paper which signified at quantitative amount of gold etc. this has evolved into the current system.
yes but money no longer signifies a preset amount of gold -- it constantly fluctuates. this is a crucial difference.

- money loses valeu over time because more of it is generated (through banking...)


im still unsure of what your point about money 'ruling' is though....

money is important in exchange, and in obtaining pocessions.

but i can't see how it rules people lives.

from another perspective, sure, people go to work every day to get money, and they use it to obtain the material goods that they want and need.

but not wanting to sound cliched, but there is a lot more to most peoples lives than pocessions.

you state that last point as if it's totally unremarkable that most people devote the majority of their lives to making and spending money. yes things such as forming and maintaining relationships are important, but money plays a huge role in that too.

if you're only 19 then you probably haven't spent more than a few years seriously thinking about money. but when you graduate, find a serious job, start a family you have to support, etc, you'll see just how much of your life revolves around money.

oh and shinobi i was lying :tease:

Longbongcilvaringz
10-02-2007, 04:09 PM
haha, what does my age have to do with it? you're only 25 yourself.

im saying, work for money is a undesirable necessity of life. but it doesnt rule it.

shinobi4227
10-02-2007, 04:12 PM
oh and shinobi i was lying :tease:

iTs all good, that wasn't really my sign anyway. But money isn,t everything.

Huggasaurus Sex
10-02-2007, 04:29 PM
i only bring up age because most 19 year olds aren't working 40 hours a week to pay off student loans, pay rent, make car payments, and experience the various other aspects of money that reveal its power over people.

i don't want to give the impression that i think money should be considered the most important part of one's life. it shouldn't. but that doesn't diminish its role in our lives and i thought it would be interesting to generate a discussion about how it affects individuals, families, and nations.