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Black Man
05-13-2008, 04:32 PM
After the "real" Allah forgives us, can he please clean up the mess he made? Or does the "real" Allah lack that power? 5 times a day muslims fall to their knees praying to the "real" Allah....before during and after they momentarily give their knees a break the same death and destruction occurs and where's the "real" Allah? The "real" Allah is nowhere to be found. Is he scared or something? No he's not scared, he just don't care. Not only doesn't the "real" Allah care, he neglects his responsibilities.

You go babies being raped, molested, starved, neglected, and all types of other things and where is the "real" Allah at?

You have elders who are being mistreated, spit on, kicked, beaten, robbed, some barely have enough to survive let alone live a quality life and where's the "real" Allah at?

I guess the "real" Allah is too busy deciding who to forgive than actually do something about the mess he made.

Will the "real" Allah please stand up?

TSA
05-13-2008, 04:36 PM
what happens when the elders molest the babies

who's side do you choose?

V4D3R
05-13-2008, 04:40 PM
If you take the time to do something about it - it might interfere with your time posting about it in KTL.

WARPATH
05-13-2008, 05:18 PM
After the "real" Allah forgives us, can he please clean up the mess he made? Or does the "real" Allah lack that power? 5 times a day muslims fall to their knees praying to the "real" Allah....before during and after they momentarily give their knees a break the same death and destruction occurs and where's the "real" Allah? The "real" Allah is nowhere to be found. Is he scared or something? No he's not scared, he just don't care. Not only doesn't the "real" Allah care, he neglects his responsibilities.

You go babies being raped, molested, starved, neglected, and all types of other things and where is the "real" Allah at?

You have elders who are being mistreated, spit on, kicked, beaten, robbed, some barely have enough to survive let alone live a quality life and where's the "real" Allah at?

I guess the "real" Allah is too busy deciding who to forgive than actually do something about the mess he made.

Will the "real" Allah please stand up?

Maybe you should take time to meditate on the answers you seek instead of cursing the one who breathed life into your body.

HANZO
05-13-2008, 06:14 PM
If Allah made all the decisions for us and controlled the world than wats the point of us being here.


**dnt reply to this by saying "why are we here"**

diggy
05-13-2008, 08:02 PM
Mankind is the one doing all that negativity you are talking about.

The culprit is man.

TSA
05-13-2008, 09:06 PM
but allah controls man and all is predesgined to his will correct?

Sky Blue Danny Kid
05-13-2008, 09:27 PM
After the "real" Allah forgives us, can he please clean up the mess he made? Or does the "real" Allah lack that power? 5 times a day muslims fall to their knees praying to the "real" Allah....before during and after they momentarily give their knees a break the same death and destruction occurs and where's the "real" Allah? The "real" Allah is nowhere to be found. Is he scared or something? No he's not scared, he just don't care. Not only doesn't the "real" Allah care, he neglects his responsibilities.

You go babies being raped, molested, starved, neglected, and all types of other things and where is the "real" Allah at?

You have elders who are being mistreated, spit on, kicked, beaten, robbed, some barely have enough to survive let alone live a quality life and where's the "real" Allah at?

I guess the "real" Allah is too busy deciding who to forgive than actually do something about the mess he made.

Will the "real" Allah please stand up?

This could be applied to the god of any religion. I couldn't tell if you meant Allah as a catchall phrase for god or you were singling out muslims.

You'll have to forgive me, because I'm white, but was your post urban poetry, like the kind you might see on Russell Simmons Presents Def Poetry Jam?

diggy
05-13-2008, 09:34 PM
but allah controls man and all is predesgined to his will correct?

How do u know this is fact?

Eyetalian
05-13-2008, 09:39 PM
http://www.antipsychiatry.org/peopletoo.jpg

Old news GOD, ALLAH or whatever is a bastard move on and accept that life is suffering etc. etc. no one really care self interest and darwinism all the way.

Dokuro
05-13-2008, 09:57 PM
After the "real" Allah forgives us, can he please clean up the mess he made? Or does the "real" Allah lack that power? 5 times a day muslims fall to their knees praying to the "real" Allah....before during and after they momentarily give their knees a break the same death and destruction occurs and where's the "real" Allah? The "real" Allah is nowhere to be found. Is he scared or something? No he's not scared, he just don't care. Not only doesn't the "real" Allah care, he neglects his responsibilities.

You go babies being raped, molested, starved, neglected, and all types of other things and where is the "real" Allah at?

You have elders who are being mistreated, spit on, kicked, beaten, robbed, some barely have enough to survive let alone live a quality life and where's the "real" Allah at?

I guess the "real" Allah is too busy deciding who to forgive than actually do something about the mess he made.

Will the "real" Allah please stand up?
you know that why me and god have an agreement she stas away from me i stay away from her beacouse she dont do shit but bring you down

LORD NOSE
05-14-2008, 03:20 AM
If Allah made all the decisions for us and controlled the world than wats the point of us being here.


**dnt reply to this by saying "why are we here"**


if Allah doesn't make decisions for us or control what we do, then why pray and ask him to control us or make decisions ?

LORD NOSE
05-14-2008, 03:23 AM
Mankind is the one doing all that negativity you are talking about.

The culprit is man.

and the all seeing all knowing lets man do all that negativity
it must be apart of the plan
maybe its true that if we do good things while we live then we will go to where god is and live with him after we die

GENERAL WISE
05-14-2008, 03:24 AM
Because the Allah you think you know doesn't exist.

LORD NOSE
05-14-2008, 03:27 AM
Because Allah doesn't exist.

Allah Does exist - but not in the form many attribute to him

when a rapper dies, he suddenly becomes the greatest rapper to ever live
just because he's dead now

people exaggerate Gods position and reason for existing

diggy
05-14-2008, 04:13 AM
and the all seeing all knowing lets man do all that negativity
it must be apart of the plan
maybe its true that if we do good things while we live then we will go to where god is and live with him after we die

Humans have free will and can do what is possible with it. It is up to us to do good on earth cuz we live here.

I find it so ironic that when someone does something smart or good, they usually attribute it to themselves, but when someone does bad things, one asks where is God (or something like that) when the bad thing that happened was manmade.

I think evil exist withing man, but some have let it rule them ( then they blame god when they are the ones who chose evil!).

LORD NOSE
05-14-2008, 05:03 AM
Humans have free will and can do what is possible with it. It is up to us to do good on earth cuz we live here.


it is up to us

I find it so ironic that when someone does something smart or good, they usually attribute it to themselves, but when someone does bad things, one asks where is God (or something like that) when the bad thing that happened was manmade.

when people do something smart or good i hear them brag about it
when people do bad things i hear them brag about it

when innocent children get bombs dropped on them people question gods existance

why should they not ?


I think evil exist withing man, but some have let it rule them ( then they blame god when they are the ones who chose evil!).

if evil exist in man, and god created man, then god created the evil within them and is to blame for it being there - if god didn't want evil to exist, then he would not let it exist in his creation

Kong
05-14-2008, 05:31 AM
why would god create evil?

its more like god created the darkness.. evil comes from how man uses the darkness.

GENERAL WISE
05-14-2008, 05:31 AM
Allah Does exist - but not in the form many attribute to him

when a rapper dies, he suddenly becomes the greatest rapper to ever live
just because he's dead now

people exaggerate Gods position and reason for existing

Didn't mean it that way.

LORD NOSE
05-14-2008, 05:34 AM
Didn't mean it that way.


understood

KERZO
05-14-2008, 07:16 AM
I expected a remix of eminem and cilvarings in this thread........................damn!! :dududu:

WARPATH
05-14-2008, 01:50 PM
if Allah doesn't make decisions for us or control what we do, then why pray and ask him to control us or make decisions ?

Maybe this is the wrong way to pray.

and the all seeing all knowing lets man do all that negativity
it must be apart of the plan
maybe its true that if we do good things while we live then we will go to where god is and live with him after we die

And if he didn't let us do what we want, what would we be then?

Puppets or slaves?

it is up to us

when people do something smart or good i hear them brag about it
when people do bad things i hear them brag about it

when innocent children get bombs dropped on them people question gods existance

why should they not ?

if evil exist in man, and god created man, then god created the evil within them and is to blame for it being there - if god didn't want evil to exist, then he would not let it exist in his creation


Why blame god for our actions? We have to take responsibility for our own actions.

LORD NOSE
05-14-2008, 02:03 PM
Maybe this is the wrong way to pray.

maybe



And if he didn't let us do what we want, what would we be then?

Puppets or slaves?


puppets or slaves - maybe.

free from sickness and war, maybe




Why blame god for our actions? We have to take responsibility for our own actions.

we do have to take responsibility for our own actions
and whatever we want, we have to get
when things go wrong its on us to fix it

people blame god because people don't know what god is

WARPATH
05-14-2008, 02:23 PM
maybe

puppets or slaves - maybe.

free from sickness and war, maybe


we do have to take responsibility for our own actions
and whatever we want, we have to get
when things go wrong its on us to fix it

people blame god because people don't know what god is


But is it reason enough denounce his existence?

or

To claim be him?

-------------------

In my opinion, this really is the only ideology that can halt spiritual growth.

But then again, if the creator truly is an enigma: that is why we have so many paths of discovery. Just like the 5% strive to find the creator within.

So who am I to try and tell another man what to believe? That's ridiculous. I'm done preaching. Peace.

LORD NOSE
05-14-2008, 02:42 PM
But is it reason enough denounce his existence?

or

To claim be him?


i am god - i'm not The supreme being though - i am a product of the supreme being

-------------------

In my opinion, this really is the only ideology that can halt spiritual growth.

But then again, if the creator truly is an enigma: that is why we have so many paths of discovery. Just like the 5% strive to find the creator within.

So who am I to try and tell another man what to believe? That's ridiculous. I'm done preaching. Peace.



________________________________

WARPATH
05-14-2008, 02:54 PM
i am god - i'm not The supreme being though - i am a product of the supreme being

-------------------





________________________________

indeed.

I am not the sun (Wi). But I am Wicasa.

HANZO
05-14-2008, 03:01 PM
if Allah doesn't make decisions for us or control what we do, then why pray and ask him to control us or make decisions ?

we dnt pray to ask for him to control us and make decisions for us.

Black Man
05-14-2008, 04:18 PM
Maybe you should take time to meditate on the answers you seek instead of cursing the one who breathed life into your body.

Who is that mystery god?

Black Man
05-14-2008, 04:23 PM
Mankind is the one doing all that negativity you are talking about.

The culprit is man.

Is it man or mankind? Or is it both? Man is not the same as mankind.

Black Man
05-14-2008, 04:25 PM
This could be applied to the god of any religion. I couldn't tell if you meant Allah as a catchall phrase for god or you were singling out muslims.

You'll have to forgive me, because I'm white, but was your post urban poetry, like the kind you might see on Russell Simmons Presents Def Poetry Jam?

Yes it can be applied to the "god" of any religion.

I wasn't singling out muslims per se, but I was singling somebody's (idea) out.

Black Man
05-14-2008, 04:28 PM
and the all seeing all knowing lets man do all that negativity
it must be apart of the plan
maybe its true that if we do good things while we live then we will go to where god is and live with him after we die

Sounds like that "god/allah" isn't being responsible for what he made.

Black Man
05-14-2008, 04:31 PM
Humans have free will and can do what is possible with it. It is up to us to do good on earth cuz we live here.

I find it so ironic that when someone does something smart or good, they usually attribute it to themselves, but when someone does bad things, one asks where is God (or something like that) when the bad thing that happened was manmade.

I think evil exist withing man, but some have let it rule them ( then they blame god when they are the ones who chose evil!).

When a person suffers that's them choosing evil?

From my observations when a person does good they praise god, but something bad happens they forget all about god. Reference he got game.

If god truly is the creator, then god is responsible for that which he creates.

Black Man
05-14-2008, 04:33 PM
why would god create evil?

its more like god created the darkness.. evil comes from how man uses the darkness.

that seems like a question only god can answer.

Black Man
05-14-2008, 04:34 PM
I expected a remix of eminem and cilvarings in this thread........................damn!! :dududu:

I was expecting the same thing too...damn Black Man!

Black Man
05-14-2008, 04:36 PM
Why blame god for our actions? We have to take responsibility for our own actions.

So we should take responsibility for our own actions but "god" doesn't have to take responsibility for "god's" actions? Why is "god" exempt from taking responsibility for his actions?

Black Man
05-14-2008, 04:37 PM
But is it reason enough denounce his existence?

or

To claim be him?

-------------------

In my opinion, this really is the only ideology that can halt spiritual growth.

But then again, if the creator truly is an enigma: that is why we have so many paths of discovery. Just like the 5% strive to find the creator within.

So who am I to try and tell another man what to believe? That's ridiculous. I'm done preaching. Peace.

Disclaimer: The 5% do not strive to find the creator within.

Who is that mystery god?

Black Man
05-14-2008, 04:40 PM
i am god - i'm not The supreme being though - i am a product of the supreme being

-------------------





________________________________

I'm the Original Man and the Original Man is God and he is the Supreme Being.

...the Original Man who is Allah, the Supreme Being Blackman from Asia.

-The A to the Z-
05-14-2008, 04:47 PM
Your feeble attempts at philosophy are just another cliched way of offloading your responsibilites as a Human to better yourself and subsequently Humankind.

V4D3R
05-14-2008, 04:51 PM
I'm the Original Man and the Original Man is God and he is the Supreme Being.

...the Original Man who is Allah, the Supreme Being Blackman from Asia.
Show and prove.
Show the red & black man that was taken across the ocean.
Prove to the red man why his creation story is invalid to the 5%.
Show the lost black slave where his train of thought went wrong.
Show me why the original black man is Allah - the supreme being.
Show me how the original man was only of one color.

The time is at hand to stop spittin fallacies and to spit truths. We have been lied to by too many. Factology.



Facts.

Black Man
05-14-2008, 05:14 PM
Your feeble attempts at philosophy are just another cliched way of offloading your responsibilites as a Human to better yourself and subsequently Humankind.

:lmao:

STYLE
05-14-2008, 05:45 PM
god dwells at the center of every physical formation from man to particle.

the attributes of GOD, omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence, are limited by the physical expression (the form in which it dwells).

that is to say, the essence of beetoven's 5th is the same when being hummed or performed by and orchestra. the expression is limited by the instrument.

a drop of water is the same as an ocean. but yet a drop of water cannot support a multitude of sea life nor display the destructive power of a tidal wave.

Black Man
05-14-2008, 06:03 PM
Show and prove.
Show the red & black man that was taken across the ocean.

"Pocohontis" was taken across the ocean. Is she "red" enough for you? We don't need to get into the "black man" being taken across the ocean.

Prove to the red man why his creation story is invalid to the 5%.

This I can't do. The 5% don't have a "creation story" atleast I don't know of any.

Show the lost black slave where his train of thought went wrong.

For this, simply begin by reading the Miseducation of the Negro.

Show me why the original black man is Allah - the supreme being.

Get a dictionary and start looking up the words, original, black, man, Allah, supreme, being, why....when you've finished this task, I'll set you up for the next task.

Show me how the original man was only of one color.

Get a dictionary and look up the words, how, original, man, only, one, color, complexion, black, white......when you've finished this task, I'll set you up for the next task.

The time is at hand to stop spittin fallacies and to spit truths. We have been lied to by too many. Factology.

Facts.

:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::l mao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lma o::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao: :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:
:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::l mao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lma o::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao: :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

You're a funny dude....show and prove.

The mouth of wisdom only opens to the ears of understanding.

Dude, you're not ready to listen let alone learn, among other things.

Now, if you really want to know, I'll point you in the right direction to start your 2200 mile journey over the hot arabian desert.

You want to know about the Original Man, read African Presence in Early America, Asia, and Europe. Read African Origin of Civilization Myth or Reality. Read the Making of the Whiteman.

If you really want to know all of the above you have been given g.ood o.rderly d.irection.

Show and prove...smh. LOL.

STYLE
05-14-2008, 06:31 PM
“Truth is eternal, knowledge is changeable. It is disastrous to confuse them. ”

“The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is a knowledge of our own ignorance."



“Some people will never learn anything, for this reason, because they understand everything too soon.”


:learning:

V4D3R
05-14-2008, 08:16 PM
I wont be close minded and ignorant and will give Mis-education of the Negro a read.

LORD NOSE
05-15-2008, 02:16 AM
god dwells at the center of every physical formation from man to particle.

so is god in the center of a rock ?


the attributes of GOD, omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence, are limited by the physical expression (the form in which it dwells).


these attributes dwell in the physical expression

(what other kinds of expressions are there other than physical ones ?)

the physical expression limits the attributes of God which are omnipresence,omnipotence, and omniscience ?

How ?


so how are you able to even talk about its presence and location ?

that is to say, the essence of beetoven's 5th is the same when being hummed or performed by and orchestra. the expression is limited by the instrument.

a drop of water is the same as an ocean. but yet a drop of water cannot support a multitude of sea life nor display the destructive power of a tidal wave.




sounds...nice but makes no sense whatsoever

Cee Oh Vee
05-15-2008, 03:33 AM
I find it funny how people choose when and what they think is within the unseen.

Also; when you talk about Allah (as in God), why do you only speak of "the God of Islam"? It doesn't exist. Allah is God. God is Allah. I think it's because you only pick and choose what you want to understand about Islam.

Surely if you think Muslim means to believe (or to be a follower) of Islam - something as basic as that - you've got no hope in even attempting to understand any other part of it (the deen/Islam?

why would god create evil?

its more like god created the darkness.. evil comes from how man uses the darkness.

God guides to His Light whoever He wills.

God created three intelligent races. Angels, Jinns and Humans - the last two have been granted 'free will' to choose between good and evil. It's as simple as that.

Mankind is the one doing all that negativity you are talking about.

The culprit is man.

...As we are all on our own path.

if Allah doesn't make decisions for us or control what we do, then why pray and ask him to control us or make decisions ?

We do everything by God (if he does not will something, it cannot and will not happen)

But we do not pray and ask him to control us or make decisions. Although we do ask him to rightly guide us in the choices we make.

Allah Does exist - but not in the form many attribute to him

when a rapper dies, he suddenly becomes the greatest rapper to ever live
just because he's dead now

people exaggerate Gods position and reason for existing

I don't understand how you attempt to lower the position of God to fit your ideology of you being god. However surely that says something? (LOL)

You are human, not god.


if evil exist in man, and god created man, then god created the evil within them and is to blame for it being there - if god didn't want evil to exist, then he would not let it exist in his creation

The point is; God does want evil to exist - that is the point of life - to be able to choose your own path be it good or evil, if you like.

PEACE.

Ps. thanks Black Man for not blatantly mentioning my name in this thread lol.

LORD NOSE
05-15-2008, 04:48 AM
But we do not pray and ask him to control us or make decisions. Although we do ask him to rightly guide us in the choices we make.


if it be the WILL of Allah i hope you understand soon



I don't understand how you attempt to lower the position of God to fit your ideology of you being god. However surely that says something? (LOL)

You are human, not god.


i could never lower the position of god
i dismiss the average Humans perception of god - get it straight



The point is; God does want evil to exist - that is the point of life - to be able to choose your own path be it good or evil, if you like.

PEACE.

if god wants evil to exist like you say, then he is responsible for all of the senseless killings and pain - and when evil shit happens, then its his fault, not mans - if he is indeed the creator of everything that ever existed, then he also created evil -

Cee Oh Vee
05-15-2008, 04:57 AM
if god wants evil to exist like you say, then he is responsible for all of the senseless killings and pain - and when evil shit happens, then its his fault, not mans - if he is indeed the creator of everything that ever existed, then he also created evil -

God created evil, what's your point?

People have to die, and every person experiences some kind of pain (or struggle) at some point in their life.

Everything that happens is by God. But humans have the choice what or whether to do stuff, or not.

Peace.

LORD NOSE
05-15-2008, 05:00 AM
God created evil, what's your point?



Everything that happens is by God.

then according to you, when bombs are dropped on innocent babies, he is responsible - correct ?

Cee Oh Vee
05-15-2008, 05:14 AM
then according to you, when bombs are dropped on innocent babies, he is responsible - correct ?

Incorrect.

You only quoted half of what I said because the other part says humans have the choice what or whether to do stuff, or not.

What is meant by everything is by God is; nothing can happen without His presence. However when bombs are dropped on innocent babies he didn't cause it. God gave humans and jinns free will.

STYLE
05-15-2008, 05:17 AM
so is god in the center of a rock ?

yes

[/color]


these attributes dwell in the physical expression

(what other kinds of expressions are there other than physical ones ?)

there are facial expressions, mathematic expressions, verbal expression.

the physical expression limits the attributes of God which are omnipresence,omnipotence, and omniscience ?

How ?

how are you different from a rock?


so how are you able to even talk about its presence and location ?

i open my mouth and the words come out. but i'm typing. what is "IT"?

[/color]

sounds...nice but makes no sense whatsoever

to YOU. but gravity electricity and magnetism are still question marks for you so i advise you start slow.

LORD NOSE
05-15-2008, 05:28 AM
Incorrect.

You only quoted half of what I said because the other part says humans have the choice what or whether to do stuff, or not.

What is meant by everything is by God is; nothing can happen without His presence. However when bombs are dropped on innocent babies he didn't cause it. God gave humans and jinns free will.

it cannot happen without his presence according to you - then, free will or no free will - he is still responsible

Cee Oh Vee
05-15-2008, 05:33 AM
it cannot happen without his presence according to you - then, free will or no free will - he is still responsible

You've got a son, you tell him what's right and what's wrong, he grows up and becomes a serial killer. Are you responsible?

LORD NOSE
05-15-2008, 05:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SUNNY WINTERS http://www.wutang-corp.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.wutang-corp.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1171271#post1171271)
so is god in the center of a rock ?

yes

get help


these attributes dwell in the physical expression

(what other kinds of expressions are there other than physical ones ?)

there are facial expressions, mathematic expressions, verbal expression.

get help fast,all of the expressions you listed falls under physical expression
the physical expression limits the attributes of God which are omnipresence,omnipotence, and omniscience ?

How ?

how are you different from a rock?


seek help immediately
so how are you able to even talk about its presence and location ?

i open my mouth and the words come out. but i'm typing. what is "IT"?

seek help before it gets worstsounds...nice but makes no sense whatsoever


to YOU. but gravity electricity and magnetism are still question marks for you so i advise you start slow.

but i asked the questions and you answered incorrectly as usual

gravity electricity and magnetism and god are still question marks for everyone who knows that they don't have a for sure answer - its a shame that you think you know when you can't go further past what you were trained to repeat

stop trying to teach - and ask more questions - you'll be a better teacher by asking questions

WARPATH
05-15-2008, 09:48 AM
Who is that mystery god?

If that's what you believe. Or maybe it was your mother, at any rate you should still honor the one that gave you life.

Yes it can be applied to the "god" of any religion.

I wasn't singling out muslims per se, but I was singling somebody's (idea) out.

How can you expect people to respect what your teaching if you don't respect anyone else?

Sounds like that "god/allah" isn't being responsible for what he made.

Which is what? The earth, the moon, the sun, the stars? Last time I looked the universe has been acting on it's own accord with or without us.



Why blame god for our actions? We have to take responsibility for our own actions.

So we should take responsibility for our own actions but "god" doesn't have to take responsibility for "god's" actions? Why is "god" exempt from taking responsibility for his actions?

What actions are you talking about?

Black Man
05-15-2008, 10:08 AM
If that's what you believe. Or maybe it was your mother, at any rate you should still honor the one that gave you life.

I see some people don't know about child birth.

Who is the one that gave me life?

How can you expect people to respect what your teaching if you don't respect anyone else?

This coming from the person who shows nothing but disrespect. Who's "teachings" don't I respect, or what person don't I respect?

Which is what? The earth, the moon, the sun, the stars? Last time I looked the universe has been acting on it's own accord with or without us.

You need to a map and compass so you don't get lost.

[quote=Black Man;1170657]
What actions are you talking about?

Who is that mystery god?

You need to a map and compass so you don't get lost.

Black Man
05-15-2008, 10:19 AM
I wont be close minded and ignorant and will give Mis-education of the Negro a read.



So you'll be open to read the mis-education fo the negro but you will disregard all the other directions given to you?

Easy to lead in the wrong direction but hard to lead in the right direction.

If you wanted to really "know" you would follow all of the instructions given to you however you really don't want to know, let alone understand.

The 85% know that it rains hail snow and also hear thunder above their heads but do not try to learn who is causing all this to happen by letting the 5% teach them. They believe in the 10% on face value.

Black Man
05-15-2008, 10:35 AM
god dwells at the center of every physical formation from man to particle.

Who is that mystery god? So god is seperate from where god dwells at? They are not the same. One is a place of dwelling and the other is god in which dwells in the said dwelling place?

The devil is 100% weak and wicked....
Allah is God in the Earth and Heavens and there is NO UNRIGHTEOUSNESS IN HIM...

the attributes of GOD, omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence, are limited by the physical expression (the form in which it dwells).

So the form limits the expression of god? :nonono:

that is to say, the essence of beetoven's 5th is the same when being hummed or performed by and orchestra. the expression is limited by the instrument.

a drop of water is the same as an ocean. but yet a drop of water cannot support a multitude of sea life nor display the destructive power of a tidal wave.

Then a drop of water is NOT the same as an ocean.



:learning:

LORD NOSE
05-15-2008, 01:49 PM
the ocean is the same as a cup of water

LMAO

its the same exact thing......but its different

LMAO !

Cee Oh Vee
05-15-2008, 04:35 PM
?

WARPATH
05-15-2008, 04:57 PM
This coming from the person who shows nothing but disrespect. Who's "teachings" don't I respect, or what person don't I respect?


See really that's your problem. You always need to be right.

"The earth is round"

"no it isn't"

"Sure it is"

"No it's sphere, maybe you eat to much pork chops a chunky."


I respect a lot of people here. I even respected you when you first started posting until you started judging me over my cultural back ground.




You need to a map and compass so you don't get lost.


See what I mean.

Black Man
05-16-2008, 08:31 AM
Now being right is a problem???? What? I'm supposed to be wrong? When exactly did I judge you over your cultural background? What was my judgement?

KERZO
05-16-2008, 09:19 AM
cats be taking some nasty drugs in this thread...

WARPATH
05-16-2008, 09:42 AM
Now being right is a problem???? What? I'm supposed to be wrong? When exactly did I judge you over your cultural background? What was my judgement?

Then you try and play innocent.........

ChristO
05-16-2008, 05:22 PM
all-law.

Cee Oh Vee
05-16-2008, 05:29 PM
What a contribution.

LORD NOSE
05-17-2008, 01:41 PM
__________________________________________


People want fancy sounding poetic meaningless words
they want mask and costume presentation because thats what they are use to and thats all they know
what i give them is uncut and raw
they don't like that
kids never like taking their medicine
unless its candy coated in blue and red
they never like needles but they love the cherry flavored lollipop they're given after the bandaid is put on

majority of the people don't think for themselves, their display comes from what their enemies tells them is correct

and they never question it

STYLE
05-17-2008, 06:32 PM
u have all the answers.

a sure sign of a shit filled mind.

Animal Luff
05-17-2008, 06:52 PM
If Allah made all the decisions for us and controlled the world than wats the point of us being here.


**dnt reply to this by saying "why are we here"**

Why aren't we all here? --that's the question

LORD NOSE
05-17-2008, 07:28 PM
You've got a son, you tell him what's right and what's wrong, he grows up and becomes a serial killer. Are you responsible?

yes - it means that somewhere in his life i fucked up - i didn't protect him from outside influence - i didn't give him a good understanding or surround him with loving family - it would be really be my fault totally if i instilled in him evilness -





Originally Posted by HAN http://www.wutang-corp.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.wutang-corp.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1169647#post1169647)
If Allah made all the decisions for us and controlled the world than wats the point of us being here.

since Allah doesn't make all the decisions for us and controll the world than whats the point of us being here ?



001.002
YUSUFALI: Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
PICKTHAL: Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,
SHAKIR: All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.

Cee Oh Vee
05-19-2008, 12:30 PM
__________________________________________


People want fancy sounding poetic meaningless words
they want mask and costume presentation because thats what they are use to and thats all they know
what i give them is uncut and raw
they don't like that
kids never like taking their medicine
unless its candy coated in blue and red
they never like needles but they love the cherry flavored lollipop they're given after the bandaid is put on

majority of the people don't think for themselves, their display comes from what their enemies tells them is correct

and they never question it

This is what I find funny about people who don't have any sort of deen.

You just group all religion as one. You can't do that with Islam.

You're talking about people not thinking for themselves. I assume you mean religion-wise; people just believe what their parents believe yes? Islam forbids this. Allah says; do not follow your forefathers! You must look into other religions for yourself - and in a sense find Islam yourself. Although I agree, most Muslims today do not do this.

Sunny, I agree with most of what you say to do with religion, but it just isn't true in Islam. When looking into Islam I suggest you don't look at today's Muslims and how they do stuff, look at the Qur'an and the practice of the people of Madina in the Prophet's time.

LORD NOSE
05-19-2008, 02:29 PM
This is what I find funny about people who don't have any sort of deen.

You just group all religion as one. You can't do that with Islam.

You're talking about people not thinking for themselves. I assume you mean religion-wise; people just believe what their parents believe yes? Islam forbids this. Allah says; do not follow your forefathers! You must look into other religions for yourself - and in a sense find Islam yourself. Although I agree, most Muslims today do not do this.

Sunny, I agree with most of what you say to do with religion, but it just isn't true in Islam. When looking into Islam I suggest you don't look at today's Muslims and how they do stuff, look at the Qur'an and the practice of the people of Madina in the Prophet's time.


i don't know why you saw an attack on Islam and Muslims in my words - as far as having a deen, you have no idea what i got - when you learn to think for yourself, you'll see my words clearer - as far as me grouping all religions as one, i don't know where you got that, but you got it and its a misunderstanding on your part - you cannot tell me about Islam or Muslims or the Quaran - been there done that - once you stop feeling the need to defend yourself against an imaginary attack, you'll begin to realize whats really going on here

Cee Oh Vee
05-19-2008, 02:39 PM
lol

Urban_Journalz
05-19-2008, 02:50 PM
After the "real" Allah forgives us, can he please clean up the mess he made? Or does the "real" Allah lack that power? 5 times a day muslims fall to their knees praying to the "real" Allah....before during and after they momentarily give their knees a break the same death and destruction occurs and where's the "real" Allah? The "real" Allah is nowhere to be found. Is he scared or something? No he's not scared, he just don't care. Not only doesn't the "real" Allah care, he neglects his responsibilities.

You go babies being raped, molested, starved, neglected, and all types of other things and where is the "real" Allah at?

You have elders who are being mistreated, spit on, kicked, beaten, robbed, some barely have enough to survive let alone live a quality life and where's the "real" Allah at?

I guess the "real" Allah is too busy deciding who to forgive than actually do something about the mess he made.

Will the "real" Allah please stand up?

Your stupidity will endure long after the celebration of your death. Sadly.

ChristO
05-25-2008, 05:41 PM
__________________________________________


People want fancy sounding poetic meaningless words
they want mask and costume presentation because thats what they are use to and thats all they know
what i give them is uncut and raw
they don't like that
kids never like taking their medicine
unless its candy coated in blue and red
they never like needles but they love the cherry flavored lollipop they're given after the bandaid is put on

majority of the people don't think for themselves, their display comes from what their enemies tells them is correct

and they never question it

alright, I'll say it like this, 'cause I see the context of what you saying. you always gotta' consider the source. if the knowledge accessible to us came from our oppressor, well, what I'm seeing lately is that not even they can hide the truth in what lie or whatever that they've given us, whether as far as the bible or such. it's there.
allah, I said all-law, 'cause well, anyway, what'd try to make allah a lie. man's law, I figure. so, at a certain point, it's about self-preservation, when whomever resorts to questioning God or Allah, and there's no further time for debates. like as if questioning God would directly lead to starvation. and like, as if when God's patience runs out or suh'm, in his compassion.
fortunate enough, as it was written and such, God sent his son to compensate for questioning his word. real simple, he was put to death. well, so it was written, so that we or the remainder could live. but it had to do with people playing the part of judges against God or God's word [Gab']. 'cause in not repenting or atoning, that'd be what the questioning God would lead or mount to.
that's all I can get at right now. and one.

ChristO
05-25-2008, 06:00 PM
and this ain't got anything to do with you saying what you gotta' say. all I know though, is say the people's prayers don't reach the one in the proper manner. then God gonna' have that right to defend himself, as He is able. just like as in, any man would have that right to defend himself in some moment.
as of now, God's been in a hiatus period. since post 1969. and the people can make they own choice who or what they want to believe in, considering we supposed to be born with free will.
but I'd take it back to the first recorded murder in the history of the bible. I mean, whatever's available to me to work with, basic. like, has that debt been paid. say, as it was written, when the christ's ressurection asked simon peter suh'm to the effect of, "are you even my friend?"
I mean, that's where I'm at now in my research. S.P. let me know what it is, not to sound too territorial or anything. but I'm a' leave it at that for now. and one.

ChristO
05-25-2008, 06:21 PM
After the "real" Allah forgives us, can he please clean up the mess he made? Or does the "real" Allah lack that power? 5 times a day muslims fall to their knees praying to the "real" Allah....before during and after they momentarily give their knees a break the same death and destruction occurs and where's the "real" Allah? The "real" Allah is nowhere to be found. Is he scared or something? No he's not scared, he just don't care. Not only doesn't the "real" Allah care, he neglects his responsibilities.

You go babies being raped, molested, starved, neglected, and all types of other things and where is the "real" Allah at?

You have elders who are being mistreated, spit on, kicked, beaten, robbed, some barely have enough to survive let alone live a quality life and where's the "real" Allah at?

I guess the "real" Allah is too busy deciding who to forgive than actually do something about the mess he made.

Will the "real" Allah please stand up?

from what I read, it was originally 5,000 times a day that Allah was about to subject the followers of islam to. muhammad got it reduced down to 5 times a day.
I tell you what though, as for God or Allah being too busy deciding who to forgive, it don't go like that. it's like this, if the gun jams, that person gets to see another day. if he or she went out without having repented/atoned, that's the fate. no thought to it.
now, would I blame Allah or God for me? or for having created us? main thing is, God or Allah's purpose ain't to impress you or us. what's God's responsibility but to warn you or the remainder of the judgement. no other responsibility of God/Allah's comes to mind for me. and in that, the archangel known as Gabriel [the "word" [Gab'] of God] would be sent...

diggy
05-25-2008, 11:46 PM
If God is the First Existential Cause of all that is, and evil human action is, then is it not true to say that God is the First Existential Cause of evil in this world?


The best way to deal with this question is to begin by defining our terms, namely good and evil.

Good: That which all things desire (Aristotle). The good is that to which all things tend or desire (appetite). If a person desires something, he sees it as a good. What all things desire or tend to first and foremost is their own perfection. This is another way of saying that all things desire their own "to be", or their own "act of existing." If you were being attacked by someone swinging a machete, you would run. Why? Because you desire to be. In other words, good is really the same as being (just logically different). Good is a property of being, just as nutrition is a property of living things. And so we can say that whatever is, is good insofar as it is.

Evil: If good is being, evil is going to be a kind of non-being. Evil is a lack of something that should be there. In order to keep things simple, consider physical evil. It belongs to the nature of a bird to have wings. A bird without wings cannot fly. A bird ought to have wings. If it does not, it suffers from a physical evil or defect. Compare the words defect and perfect. All things desire their own perfection, but we do not desire our own defect. The word 'perfect' means "made through", but "defect" implies the opposite: "not completely made through". It is not a defect that man is born without wings, because it does not belong to his nature to have wings. That is why a child born without wings is not said to be suffering from a physical evil. A child born without arms, on the contrary, does suffer from a physical evil or defect. Evil is a lack, a privation of due being. That is why there is no such thing as pure or total evil; total evil would be nothing. Evil always exists in a subject that is basically good.

Now God is His own Act of Existing and is the cause of the received act of existing of everything else. If good is a property of being, then God is supremely good, perfectly good, and in willing to bring things into being, He is willing to communicate goodness to other things. One of those things is human beings. The human being is the kind of being that has intelligence and will. This means that we can know the natures of things, and we can will intelligible goods. In other words, we have the ability to choose freely. This means we have the ability to make evil choices. But how does this work?

Free Choice: Free choice is about alternatives. Let me explain. The will necessarily desires "the good". It has no choice but to desire the good. If we were to see God as He is in Himself at this moment, we would necessarily love Him, because He is the fullness of good (because He is the fullness of being). Heaven is precisely that never ending possession of the supreme good, the vision of God as He is in Himself. So it is true to say that all things, whether they know it or not, have a fundamental desire for God.

Now, within the alternatives that are presented to us in our everyday lives, one does not find the fullness of good (infinite good). One only finds finite goods (limited goods). For example, you are in bed and your alarm clock goes off. It's time to get up for school. You have alternatives.

You can stay in bed, you can get up and get ready for school.
You can get up, stay at home, and work on your ISP.
You can sleep in and go to school late, etc.Each alternative offers some benefits not contained in the others. If you sleep in, you will feel better during the day and likely have more energy, but you will have a lot of catching up to do when you get back to school. If you get up and stay home, you may still be sleep deprived from the previous nights, but you can do the ISP that you waited so long to begin writing. If you sleep in and go to school late, you will miss first period, and you like first period class and cannot afford to get behind, etc.

What you are doing is deliberating on the alternatives. The intellect is presenting to your will known goods contained in the alternatives, and your will is commanding the intellect to continue presenting them. But you have to decide at some point. When you decide (from the Latin de sacare: to cut off), your will commands the intellect to cut off deliberation. Your choice is the last alternative on which you were deliberating when your will commanded the intellect to cut off deliberation. You decided. In other words, your choice was self-determined. Free choice means self-determination.

That's the kind of being God has brought into existence, the kind of being capable of determining itself. Now, in order to make free choices, you have to be preserved in existence. In order to deliberate and decide, your intellect and will must be preserved in being. God is the First Existential Cause of your intellect and will, and the existing action of deliberation and decision.

But making an evil decision is our choice. Let me explain. An evil decision is the choice of an alternative that lacks something it should have. It is a deficient alternative. It is not as complete and full as the other alternatives. For example, a person gives birth to a handicapped child. The alternatives presented to him are the following:

Sedate the baby and not feed him, so that he will die.
Feed the baby and care for him and love him.
Give the baby up for adoption.The person begins deliberating. He knows from natural law that human beings have an inalienable right to live, and that the value of this child does not depend upon his physical and mental quality. And so he knows that one must not choose to directly destroy human life, which is intrinsically good, for the sake of making one's own life more convenient. That rule or moral norm is in his mind. And so he deliberates, and alternative #1 bothers him slightly, yet it offers to make his life much easier. He will be free to take trips every summer, he will not have to make renovations on his house for the sake of his handicapped child, etc. Alternative #2 strikes him as the more humane, but along with that will come all sorts of personal sacrifices. All sorts of goods come from personal sacrifices, i.e., spiritual growth, good character, and the joy of a relationship with your child, etc. Alternative #3 presents goods that the others do not present, for example, a couple who are childless will be given a child to raise and love, but then he might feel terribly guilty knowing that others are asking the mother who the child's biological parents are, and he doesn't want to risk having people think bad thoughts about him. As he is deliberating, he decides not to consider the rule or moral norm, and his will commands the intellect to stop deliberating while it considers alternative #1. He chooses alternative #1.

The first alternative is morally deficient. It lacks due reverence for human life. Now the will was free to command the intellect to stop deliberating at any of the alternatives, because each alternative contained finite goods that the others did not, and so the will was not necessitated towards any one alternative.

God is the First Existential Cause of the action to the degree that the action has being. But the action is evil insofar as it lacks something, insofar as it lacks due reverence for human life.
God wills that man choose the better option, the one that is less defective, but He created man free. Man has chosen the deficient option for the sake of other goods that will come to him from that choice. And so:

Man is the first deficient cause of his evil actions
God is the First Existential Cause of all of man's good actions, and whatever goodness there is in man's evil actions.And so God is not the cause of man's evil actions. God cannot will evil because evil is not a being. There is a sense in which evil does not exist. It is a defect, a lack of due being, a kind of non-being. Now man does not will the evil alternative insofar as it is evil, but only insofar as it contains goods that he desires. But he is not drawn by necessity towards the deficient alternative. He chooses it freely.

Here is an excerpt from St. Thomas' Summa Theologica on this very question. Reading it will give you a sense of St. Thomas' genius, as well as the style of writing that is consistent throughout the Summa.


More here:

http://fmmh.ycdsb.ca/teachers/fmmh_mcmanaman/pages/stevil.html

Mumm Ra
05-26-2008, 07:23 AM
You've got a son, you tell him what's right and what's wrong, he grows up and becomes a serial killer. Are you responsible?

yes - it means that somewhere in his life i fucked up - i didn't protect him from outside influence - i didn't give him a good understanding or surround him with loving family - it would be really be my fault totally if i instilled in him evilness -

I don't see how that's right. I mean I have an utter asshole of a brother and I'm the complete opposite even though we were raised in the same environment (a bad environment IMO). I could see how you can be a bad influence on a kid but not how you'd be responsible for their actions.

"No it's sphere, maybe you eat to much pork chops a chunky."
keeps your breath funky

jay.robinson15
05-29-2008, 10:23 AM
I don't see how that's right. I mean I have an utter asshole of a brother and I'm the complete opposite even though we were raised in the same environment (a bad environment IMO). I could see how you can be a bad influence on a kid but not how you'd be responsible for their actions.


keeps your breath funky

My family is the same way. I have great parents but my brother is a moron too and I wouldn't blame them for the way he turned out. You can't control someone else's actions after they reach a certain age.

IBRAHIM
08-23-2008, 07:23 AM
On the 1st post: if black man is "allmighty god", then why he cant stop all these problems?

LORD NOSE
08-23-2008, 09:51 AM
On the 1st post: if black man is "allmighty god", then why he cant stop all these problems?

a better question would be that if there is an all seeing all mighty god, why do all these problems exist ?

LORD NOSE
08-23-2008, 10:05 AM
The True History of Master Fard Muhammad Allah (God) in Person
By Elijah Muhammad Messenger of Allah


"In one of 40 questions and answers which Master Fard Muhammad gave to Elijah Muhammad in a "second term examination," it reads, " Who Wrote the Holy Qur'an or Bible ? Will you tell us why does Islam renew her history every twenty-five thousand years ?



Answer: The Holy Qur'an or Bible is made by the Original people, Who is Allah, the Supreme Being or Black Man of Asia. The Qur'an will expire in the year twenty-five thousand,nine hundred and eighty years from the date of this writing (from approximately 1934). The Nation of Islam is all wise and does everything right and exact. The Planet Earth, which is the home of Islam , is approximately twenty- five thousand miles in circumference, so the wise man of the east ( Black Man) makes history or Qur'an to equal his home circumference: a year to every mile and thus, every time his history last twenty-five thousand years, he renews it for another twenty-five thousand years.

What does this question and answer mean ?"



( Next, Page 44 )

WARPATH
08-23-2008, 10:27 AM
a better question would be that if there is an all seeing all mighty god, why do all these problems exist ?

Maybe God isn't all seeing. If a day to God is 1000 years, then maybe he's been sleeping for the last 8 hours.

Mic Tyson
08-23-2008, 01:09 PM
The True History of Master Fard Muhammad Allah (God) in Person
By Elijah Muhammad Messenger of Allah


"In one of 40 questions and answers which Master Fard Muhammad gave to Elijah Muhammad in a "second term examination," it reads, " Who Wrote the Holy Qur'an or Bible ? Will you tell us why does Islam renew her history every twenty-five thousand years ?



Answer: The Holy Qur'an or Bible is made by the Original people, Who is Allah, the Supreme Being or Black Man of Asia. The Qur'an will expire in the year twenty-five thousand,nine hundred and eighty years from the date of this writing (from approximately 1934). The Nation of Islam is all wise and does everything right and exact. The Planet Earth, which is the home of Islam , is approximately twenty- five thousand miles in circumference, so the wise man of the east ( Black Man) makes history or Qur'an to equal his home circumference: a year to every mile and thus, every time his history last twenty-five thousand years, he renews it for another twenty-five thousand years.

What does this question and answer mean ?"



( Next, Page 44 )

middle eastern people wrote the Quran

LORD NOSE
08-23-2008, 02:08 PM
middle eastern people wrote the Quran


Exactly


" Answer: The Holy Qur'an or Bible is made by the Original people, Who is Allah, the Supreme Being or Black Man of Asia. "


Today, we are called middle easterners, africans, niggers, blacks, negroes, porch monkeys, etc....

IBRAHIM
08-23-2008, 02:54 PM
U didnt answer my question. It's bad habit to "answer" questions by questions.

LORD NOSE
08-23-2008, 03:39 PM
U didnt answer my question. It's bad habit to "answer" questions by questions.

maby black man will come and aswer your question for himself -

i gave you a better question for you to ask yourself for your concept of what God is and isn't is different from me and black mans understanding -

while we wait for black mans answer, take my question and try coming up with an answer, perhaps it'll be closer to any answer you may get later on

IBRAHIM
08-23-2008, 03:46 PM
So u think that "God isn't allmighty", right?

LORD NOSE
08-23-2008, 03:49 PM
So u think that "God isn't allmighty", right?

why do you assume that ?

IBRAHIM
08-23-2008, 04:06 PM
Then why He doesnt solve all these problems? Just dont answer by question.

LORD NOSE
08-23-2008, 04:16 PM
i'm not understanding what it is you don't understand


you may have an idea of god that i'm not going with -

if you do believe that God is the creator of everything in existance, then you must also believe that he created and controls shaytan - if you do believe this, then in your own mind is the answer to your own question

Mic Tyson
08-23-2008, 04:26 PM
Exactly


" Answer: The Holy Qur'an or Bible is made by the Original people, Who is Allah, the Supreme Being or Black Man of Asia. "


Today, we are called middle easterners, africans, niggers, blacks, negroes, porch monkeys, etc....

my bad i meant arabs

LORD NOSE
08-23-2008, 05:07 PM
my bad i meant arabs

the original people are also called arabs, arab from Arabia - an original arab

RevRes
08-23-2008, 05:57 PM
Perhaps the real Allah thought you wouldn't be so self important.

Looking at the way humans treat lesser life forms, I'd imagine a diety wouldn't be terribly different.

Why people think the lack of what their childish emotion considers to be justice, is a disproof of a God I will never understand.

LORD NOSE
08-23-2008, 10:38 PM
according to the Qu'ran, Who causes the rain to descend from the sky ?

According to the Qu'ran, who gives life and who gives death ?

SID
08-24-2008, 03:24 AM
Allah is you, allah is the atmosphere, allah is florna and fauna, allah is your conscious, allah is your sub conscious, allah is creation, allah is destruction, allah is life, allah is death, allah is the sun, allah is the stars, allah is light and dark allah is space and time.

Allah is the cosmic clockwork intuned with precison, allah is the collective consiousness that binds all living thigs, allah is the constant cycle of life and death, allah is the ordainer.

Most of all allah transends the comprehenstion of man, and only makes itself clear through the manifestaion of the multidimensional universe that permeates every aspect of our lives daily..

peace

LORD NOSE
08-24-2008, 10:53 AM
Allah is you, allah is the atmosphere, allah is florna and fauna, allah is your conscious, allah is your sub conscious, allah is creation, allah is destruction, allah is life, allah is death, allah is the sun, allah is the stars, allah is light and dark allah is space and time.

Allah is the cosmic clockwork intuned with precison, allah is the collective consiousness that binds all living thigs, allah is the constant cycle of life and death, allah is the ordainer.

Most of all allah transends the comprehenstion of man, and only makes itself clear through the manifestaion of the multidimensional universe that permeates every aspect of our lives daily..

peace

how so ?

SID
08-24-2008, 12:06 PM
Allah (god...or watever you want to call it) is a manifestation of existence and the ultimate plane of reality..and seen as reality is subjective....allah is what you percieveit to be.

My last post was MY reality..MY truth...if it does not resonate with you..that is perfectly natural...because god is what you deem it to be...

God is everything and nothing

LORD NOSE
08-24-2008, 02:10 PM
Allah (god...or watever you want to call it) is a manifestation of existence and the ultimate plane of reality..and seen as reality is subjective....allah is what you percieveit to be.

My last post was MY reality..MY truth...if it does not resonate with you..that is perfectly natural...because god is what you deem it to be...

God is everything and nothing

so what you are saying is that god is what you make it - correct ?

so if i want to say that god is a poison ivy plant and i pray to this god 500 times a day, my way is acceptable - correct ?

Visionz
08-24-2008, 02:18 PM
so what you are saying is that god is what you make it - correct ?

so if i want to say that god is a poison ivy plant and i pray to this god 500 times a day, my way is acceptable - correct ?
completely ridiculous, but acceptable.

ChristO
08-26-2008, 10:42 PM
Allah (god...or watever you want to call it) is a manifestation of existence and the ultimate plane of reality..and seen as reality is subjective....allah is what you percieveit to be.

My last post was MY reality..MY truth...if it does not resonate with you..that is perfectly natural...because god is what you deem it to be...

naw, wrong answer homey. ids from-the-door.

ChristO
08-26-2008, 10:48 PM
Then why He doesnt solve all these problems? Just dont answer by question.

He'll.

LORD NOSE
08-26-2008, 11:04 PM
On the 1st post: if black man is "allmighty god", then why he cant stop all these problems?


is it gods jobs to solve mans problems ?

does god not send prophets and messengers/angels to the people he wants to reform ?

god helps those who...... what ?

Mic Tyson
08-27-2008, 02:28 AM
the original people are also called arabs, arab from Arabia - an original arab

i meant the arabs we see today. aint there shit in the quran sayin don't trust dark skinned (black) people and shit like that? and didn't muhammad have black slaves?

so how are they the original people?

diggy
08-27-2008, 02:43 AM
i meant the arabs we see today. aint there shit in the quran sayin don't trust dark skinned (black) people and shit like that? and didn't muhammad have black slaves?

so how are they the original people?


You must be refering to hadith or the so-called "sayings of muhammad", which by the way were written about 300 yrs after his death and contain many false stories.

Mic Tyson
08-27-2008, 02:50 AM
oh maybe, ill look into it again i just remembered readin somethin about that like 6 months ago

Fatal Guillotine
08-27-2008, 09:18 PM
After the "real" Allah forgives us, can he please clean up the mess he made? Or does the "real" Allah lack that power? 5 times a day muslims fall to their knees praying to the "real" Allah....before during and after they momentarily give their knees a break the same death and destruction occurs and where's the "real" Allah? The "real" Allah is nowhere to be found. Is he scared or something? No he's not scared, he just don't care. Not only doesn't the "real" Allah care, he neglects his responsibilities.

You go babies being raped, molested, starved, neglected, and all types of other things and where is the "real" Allah at?

You have elders who are being mistreated, spit on, kicked, beaten, robbed, some barely have enough to survive let alone live a quality life and where's the "real" Allah at?

I guess the "real" Allah is too busy deciding who to forgive than actually do something about the mess he made.

Will the "real" Allah please stand up?


i agree with sunny. Allah is the all seeing, the all knowing. their a reason behind everything from allah creating rain, hail, snow, and earthquakes. Allah is unique, the only Deity, creator of the universe and omnipotent. Qur'an portrays Allah as both more powerful and more remote than Yahweh, and as a universal deity, unlike Yahweh who closely follows Israelites.

Golden_Armz
09-03-2008, 06:46 AM
daaamn...

u know...taking a vacation from KTL, and actually seeking more knowledge would do alot of the Wu Corp Scholars on here much good!

LORD NOSE
09-03-2008, 11:49 AM
i meant the arabs we see today. aint there shit in the quran sayin don't trust dark skinned (black) people and shit like that?


you would have to show me a Surah in the Qu'ran saying this

and didn't muhammad have black slaves?

i don't know - Bilal was supposedly a slave who was freed when he came to Islam


so how are they the original people?

the arabs we see in arabia today are a mixture of the Original arabs (original occupants of Arabia) and the conquerers of arabia

LORD NOSE
09-03-2008, 11:53 AM
i agree with sunny. Allah is the all seeing, the all knowing. their a reason behind everything from allah creating rain, hail, snow, and earthquakes. Allah is unique, the only Deity, creator of the universe and omnipotent. Qur'an portrays Allah as both more powerful and more remote than Yahweh, and as a universal deity, unlike Yahweh who closely follows Israelites.


015.022
YUSUFALI: And We send the fecundating winds, then cause the rain to descend from the sky, therewith providing you with water (in abundance), though ye are not the guardians of its stores.



PICKTHAL: And We send the winds fertilising, and cause water to descend from the sky, and give it you to drink. It is not ye who are the holders of the store thereof.



SHAKIR: And We send the winds fertilizing, then send down water from the cloud so We give it to you to drink of, nor is it you who store it up.
015.023



YUSUFALI: And verily, it is We Who give life, and Who give death: it is We Who remain inheritors (after all else passes away).



PICKTHAL: Lo! and it is We, even We, Who quicken and give death, and We are the Inheritor.



SHAKIR: And most surely We bring to life and cause to die and We are the heirs.

Cee Oh Vee
09-03-2008, 12:02 PM
salaam sunny..

'We' in Qur'an is royal 'we'. It doesn't mean more than one.

Cee Oh Vee
09-03-2008, 12:05 PM
i don't know - Bilal was supposedly a slave who was freed when he came to Islam


Abu Bakr as-Siddiq bought Bilal and freed him because he was being ill-treated. Then he embraced Islam.

Black Man
09-03-2008, 01:27 PM
the arabs we see in arabia today are a mixture of the Original arabs (original occupants of Arabia) and the conquerers of arabia

Not all of them. And what is an original arab anyway?


'We' in Qur'an is royal 'we'. It doesn't mean more than one.


Is this according to Allah or his messenger or is this according to you or al'islam's religious leaders?

When did 'WE' become a singular word?

It's funny how the followers of al'islam try to justify slavery......they do the same thing christians do regarding.

Cee Oh Vee
09-03-2008, 01:41 PM
Is this according to Allah or his messenger or is this according to you or al'islam's religious leaders?

When did 'WE' become a singular word?

It's funny how the followers of al'islam try to justify slavery......they do the same thing christians do regarding.

Yet another person experiencing his first encounter with Majestic Plural.

There is nothing wrong with slavery, I don't care what you say.

Mic Tyson
09-03-2008, 01:58 PM
Yet another person experiencing his first encounter with Majestic Plural.

There is nothing wrong with slavery, I don't care what you say.

wow. what do u mean theres nothin wrong with it?

Black Man
09-03-2008, 01:58 PM
Is this according to Allah or his messenger or is this according to you or al'islam's religious leaders?

Cee Oh Vee
09-03-2008, 02:28 PM
Is this according to Allah or his messenger or is this according to you or al'islam's religious leaders?

According to Allah.

wow. what do u mean theres nothin wrong with it?

If you read up on slave-keeping in accordance with the Shari`a, you'd find that not only is there nothing wrong with it - in some cases it is good.

with peace.

LORD NOSE
09-03-2008, 02:59 PM
Is this according to Allah or his messenger or is this according to you or al'islam's religious leaders?

We almost there

LORD NOSE
09-03-2008, 06:34 PM
___________________________

LORD NOSE
09-03-2008, 06:38 PM
According to Allah.

with peace.



where did "they" tell you this ?

diggy
09-03-2008, 08:00 PM
salaam sunny..

'We' in Qur'an is royal 'we'. It doesn't mean more than one.


Not all of them. And what is an original arab anyway?



Is this according to Allah or his messenger or is this according to you or al'islam's religious leaders?

When did 'WE' become a singular word?

It's funny how the followers of al'islam try to justify slavery......they do the same thing christians do regarding.

Yet another person experiencing his first encounter with Majestic Plural.

There is nothing wrong with slavery, I don't care what you say.

Is this according to Allah or his messenger or is this according to you or al'islam's religious leaders?

According to Allah.



If you read up on slave-keeping in accordance with the Shari`a, you'd find that not only is there nothing wrong with it - in some cases it is good.

with peace.


Listen CeeDot, first of all the concept of "the majestic WE" comes from religious "scholars" who are a bunch of liars.

It is not "according to Allah" it is according to scholars. Show me a verse from the Quran which talks about "the majectic WE"!!!!

You say in some cases slavery is good? Name those instances when it is good (if you can)!!!!!

If slavery is good would you allow me to use your mother for some work I need done including having sex with her when I feel the need?

Cee Oh Vee
09-04-2008, 03:07 AM
Listen CeeDot, first of all the concept of "the majestic WE" comes from religious "scholars" who are a bunch of liars.

It is not "according to Allah" it is according to scholars. Show me a verse from the Quran which talks about "the majectic WE"!!!!

You say in some cases slavery is good? Name those instances when it is good (if you can)!!!!!

If slavery is good would you allow me to use your mother for some work I need done including having sex with her when I feel the need?

I'm listening diggy.

When I said 'According to Allah' I was referring to what was said about slavery.

I don't have a verse from Qur'an which says this, I don't think one exists. But Allah stresses the reality of tawhid throughout the entire Qur'an, so why in any other way would he say 'we'? We all know the arabic Qur'an cannot be translated into any other language perfectly, this may be another reason.

It just so happens that I can give you an instance in which slavery is good;

War. I kill the entire family of a young woman, she has no where to go. According to the SHARI`A (the harsh barbaric 'law') I cannot just leave her there. So I take her as my slave and go back to my land.

I already went through some of the rulings on keeping slaves in another thread:


According to the shari`a - here are some of the most basic rulings on keeping slaves:

-In my opinion the most important one - slaves must be freed if they so wish.
-The slave must be freed if the slave's master attacks him.
-The slave must not be given any work in which he is unable to manage.
-And the most basic ruling on having a slave is that they MUST be provided with a home, food and clothes. Regarding clothes; it is related that Muhammad the messenger of Allah never used to dress better than his slaves.

If the rejecters lived in accordance with these rules throughout time then 'Slavery' would have never happened, right?


So if I took that young woman and treated her in this way, and she had all these rights. How would that not be good? It is GOOD because it would be BAD if I just left her.

PEACE.

Black Man
09-04-2008, 07:57 AM
According to Allah.

If you read up on slave-keeping in accordance with the Shari`a, you'd find that not only is there nothing wrong with it - in some cases it is good.

with peace.

when was the sharia law given? who wrote it?

what's right with slavery? in what case is slavery good? what is slavery to you? what do the actual slaves say about them being slaves?

Cee Oh Vee
09-04-2008, 10:03 AM
when was the sharia law given? who wrote it?

what's right with slavery? in what case is slavery good? what is slavery to you? what do the actual slaves say about them being slaves?

If you read the post just before yours, you'd have your questions answered.

Mic Tyson
09-04-2008, 07:48 PM
in any situation where someone controls somebody elses freedom and human rights, it is bad.

LORD NOSE
09-04-2008, 10:46 PM
2HJUK3ttb20

Golden_Armz
09-05-2008, 07:51 AM
Listen CeeDot, first of all the concept of "the majestic WE" comes from religious "scholars" who are a bunch of liars.

lol and we're supposed to believe YOU, over 1400 years of Islamic Scholarship??

Your KUFR is unparalleled....



If slavery is good would you allow me to use your mother for some work I need done including having sex with her when I feel the need?

And you call yourself a Muslim?

Cee Oh Vee
09-05-2008, 10:42 AM
in any situation where someone controls somebody elses freedom and human rights, it is bad.

nobody controls a slaves human rights.

and you're saying, in my example, it would have been better for me just to leave the young woman?

Mic Tyson
09-05-2008, 12:24 PM
nobody controls a slaves human rights.

that depends on what u define as a slave. cuz in america niggas had no rights whatsoever

and you're saying, in my example, it would have been better for me just to leave the young woman?




yeah, why not? u already killed her family, she wouldn't want to go with u anyways

Black Man
09-05-2008, 12:31 PM
Religion Is The Opiate Of The Masses.

Who Is The 85%?

Mic Tyson
09-05-2008, 12:40 PM
Black Man how is what you believe not a religion?

Black Man
09-05-2008, 12:53 PM
Black Man how is what you believe not a religion?

What exactly is it that I believe?

Mic Tyson
09-05-2008, 02:44 PM
What exactly is it that I believe?

fuck it

LORD NOSE
09-05-2008, 05:58 PM
Black Man how is what you believe not a religion?

what does he believe that makes you wanna call it a religion ?

Rakim Allah
Big daddy Kane
Chuck D
KRS
Afrika Bambaata
Raheim
Wu Tang Clan
etc....

all of the greats in Hip Hop that have established themselves as the greats in Hip Hop, the ones who stand out, the ones that every good MC patterned themselves after put into practice True Islamic Culture which is not religion but a way of life shown to us by the living God Allah that the scriptures told us would come in the last day -

Mic Tyson
09-05-2008, 06:46 PM
just because u guys say it is not a religion doesn't make it true. u have the characteristics of a religion.

religion
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

tell me what makes 5 percenters different from other religions as far as the definition goes.

Mic Tyson
09-05-2008, 06:48 PM
what does he believe that makes you wanna call it a religion ?

Rakim Allah
Big daddy Kane
Chuck D
KRS
Afrika Bambaata
Raheim
Wu Tang Clan
etc....

all of the greats in Hip Hop that have established themselves as the greats in Hip Hop, the ones who stand out, the ones that every good MC patterned themselves after put into practice True Islamic Culture which is not religion but a way of life shown to us by the living God Allah that the scriptures told us would come in the last day -

so being a 5 percenter makes u a good rapper? if they only excel in hip hop who cares? lemme see some scientists or doctors or some shit like that

LORD NOSE
09-05-2008, 07:57 PM
just because u guys say it is not a religion doesn't make it true. u have the characteristics of a religion.

religion
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

tell me what makes 5 percenters different from other religions as far as the definition goes.


Definitions of words change

what they truly mean and what the people say they mean are not one and the same

so yes - according to todays websters dictionary, what we do would be considered the practice of a religion

What does websters dictionary say the word Black means ?

LORD NOSE
09-05-2008, 08:07 PM
so being a 5 percenter makes u a good rapper? if they only excel in hip hop who cares? lemme see some scientists or doctors or some shit like that


we have scientist and doctors - and our scientist and doctors are the best on the planet - go find out -

yes - having the teachings makes you a great rapper - a rapper that the whole world follows and tries to imitate - we are here on this site building about the lessons because Wu received the lessons and influenced many others - These Lessons put the modern day Moses in front of the modern day pharaoh so that that we can have enough self love to get our selves out of the situation we are in

Mic Tyson
09-05-2008, 09:01 PM
we have scientist and doctors - and our scientist and doctors are the best on the planet - go find out -



not as in niggas in general, i mean scientists and doctors who are 5 percenters

Mic Tyson
09-05-2008, 09:16 PM
What does websters dictionary say the word Black means ?

Black


1 a: of the color black b (1): very dark in color <his face was black with rage> (2): having a very deep or low register <a bass with a black voice> (3): heavy, serious <the play was a black intrigue>

2 a: having dark skin, hair, and eyes : swarthy <the black Irish> b (1)often capitalized : of or relating to any of various population groups having dark pigmentation of the skin <black Americans> (2): of or relating to the African-American people or their culture <black literature> <a black college> <black pride> <black studies> (3): typical or representative of the most readily perceived characteristics of black culture <trying to sound black> <tried to play blacker jazz>

3: Always Late

4: dirty, soiled <hands black with grime>

5 a: characterized by the absence of light <a black night> b: reflecting or transmitting little or no light <black water> c: served without milk or cream <black coffee>

6 a: thoroughly sinister or evil : wicked <a black deed> b: indicative of condemnation or discredit <got a black mark for being late>

7: connected with or invoking the supernatural and especially the devil <black magic>

8 a: very sad, gloomy, or calamitous <black despair> b: marked by the occurrence of disaster <black Friday>

9: characterized by hostility or angry discontent : sullen <black resentment filled his heart>

10 Bad Credit

11 aof propaganda : conducted so as to appear to originate within an enemy country and designed to weaken enemy morale b: characterized by or connected with the use of black propaganda <black radio>

12: characterized by grim, distorted, or grotesque satire <black humor>

13: of or relating to covert intelligence operations <black government programs>

14.Lazy


i already know that that words definitions change and shit like that, but the fact that u fit the "new" definition of religion ALONG with christianity, Islam, and Judaism, still means that it is a religion because of the associations u have with the ones i listed (or any other ones).

diggy
09-05-2008, 10:52 PM
lol and we're supposed to believe YOU, over 1400 years of Islamic Scholarship??

Your KUFR is unparalleled....

Show me using verses from the Quran that I am a KUFR (if you can)!!!!!

Cee Oh Vee
09-08-2008, 09:56 AM
Show me using verses from the Quran that I am a KUFR (if you can)!!!!!

You seem to being confusing the word 'kufr' with 'kafir'.

Both words are of the same root but the latter is a noun.

Cee Oh Vee
09-08-2008, 09:58 AM
that depends on what u define as a slave. cuz in america niggas had no rights whatsoever

Are you stupid enough to believe that I am excusing 'Slavery' in America?

I am talking about slavery in accordance with the shari`a.

May I add; if the white man lived in accordance with the shari`a at that time. 'Slavery' would have never happened.

LORD NOSE
09-08-2008, 10:01 AM
not as in niggas in general, i mean scientists and doctors who are 5 percenters

"niggas" in general are in the 85%

those of us who have true knowledge of self are the best in all fields on this planet - there are 5% of us - Hip Hop culture is a piece of the results but the most popular/ most seen example of this

Black Man
09-08-2008, 10:37 AM
just because u guys say it is not a religion doesn't make it true. u have the characteristics of a religion.

JUST BECAUSE YOU SAY IT IS A RELIGION DOESN'T MAKE IT ONE. SEE HOW THAT WORKS?

religion
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

tell me what makes 5 percenters different from other religions as far as the definition goes.

WHAT BELIEFS DO THE 5% HAVE CONCERNING THE CAUSE NATURE AND PURPOSE OF THE UNIVERSE?

WHAT ARE THE SPECIFIC BELIEFS OF THE 5%?

THE 5% ARE NOT RELIGIOUS ACCORDING THE WEBSTERS DEFINITION NOR IS IT A RELIGION BASED ON THE ETMOLOGY OR THE ORIGINAL WORD (RELIGIO) IN WHICH RELIGION WAS DERIVED FROM.


so being a 5 percenter makes u a good rapper? if they only excel in hip hop who cares? lemme see some scientists or doctors or some shit like that

WELL, IF YOU WERE THE 5% (OR HAD SOCIAL EQUALITY WITH THEM) THEN YOU WOULD KNOW THE 5% WHO ARE DOCTORS, SCIENTIST, LAWYERS, THERE ARE 5% WHO HOLD GOVERNMENT POSITIONS (POLITICIANS), BUSINESS OWNERS, POLICE, MILITARY, FIREMEN, TEACHERS, ARTIST (OTHER THAN MUSIC), CEO'S, ETC. ETC.

WHO IS THE 85%? THEY ARE THE BLIND......SOME PEOPLE DON'T HAVE THE VISION TO SEE AND OTHERS SIMPLY DON'T WANT TO SEE.


Definitions of words change

what they truly mean and what the people say they mean are not one and the same

so yes - according to todays websters dictionary, what we do would be considered the practice of a religion

NO, ACCORDING TO WEBSTERS DICTIONARY WHAT THE 5% DO WOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED THE PRACTICE OF A RELIGION.

KNOWLEDGE GOD. WHAT IS THE MEANING OF CIVILIZATION? ONE HAVING KNOWLEDGE.......THAT'S THE FOUNDATION, KNOWLEDGE. THERE'S NO BELIEF IN THAT.

ELIJAH TAUGHT THAT FARD MEASURED......MAKING MEASUREMENTS IS NOT ROOTED IN BELIEF, IT'S A SCIENTIFIC (SCIENCE MEANS KNOWLEDGE) METHOD FOR GATHERING KNOWLEDGE ON A PARTICULAR SUBJECT.

SOME PEOPLE DON'T KNOW AND UNDERSTAND WHAT'S BEING MEASURED AND WHAT THOSE MEASUREMENTS MEAN....THEY DON'T KNOW THE SIGNIFICANCE SO THEY HAVE BELIEF.

What does websters dictionary say the word Black means ?

we have scientist and doctors - and our scientist and doctors are the best on the planet - go find out -

TRUE INDEED!!!!! SOME PEOPLE STILL LOOKING FOR DOC BROWN AND HIS WHITE LAB COAT AS THE QUALIFICATIONS FOR A DOCOTOR/SCIENTIST. FACE VALUE....

yes - having the teachings makes you a great rapper -

RAPPER? I'D SAY AN M.C. MORE SPECIFICALLY.

a rapper that the whole world follows and tries to imitate - we are here on this site building about the lessons because Wu received the lessons and influenced many others - These Lessons put the modern day Moses in front of the modern day pharaoh so that that we can have enough self love to get our selves out of the situation we are in

not as in niggas in general, i mean scientists and doctors who are 5 percenters

WE HAVE THEM TOO!!!!!


Black


1 a: of the color black b (1): very dark in color <his face was black with rage> (2): having a very deep or low register <a bass with a black voice> (3): heavy, serious <the play was a black intrigue>

2 a: having dark skin, hair, and eyes : swarthy <the black Irish> b (1)often capitalized : of or relating to any of various population groups having dark pigmentation of the skin <black Americans> (2): of or relating to the African-American people or their culture <black literature> <a black college> <black pride> <black studies> (3): typical or representative of the most readily perceived characteristics of black culture <trying to sound black> <tried to play blacker jazz>

3: Always Late

4: dirty, soiled <hands black with grime>

5 a: characterized by the absence of light <a black night> b: reflecting or transmitting little or no light <black water> c: served without milk or cream <black coffee>

6 a: thoroughly sinister or evil : wicked <a black deed> b: indicative of condemnation or discredit <got a black mark for being late>

7: connected with or invoking the supernatural and especially the devil <black magic>

8 a: very sad, gloomy, or calamitous <black despair> b: marked by the occurrence of disaster <black Friday>

9: characterized by hostility or angry discontent : sullen <black resentment filled his heart>

10 Bad Credit

11 aof propaganda : conducted so as to appear to originate within an enemy country and designed to weaken enemy morale b: characterized by or connected with the use of black propaganda <black radio>

12: characterized by grim, distorted, or grotesque satire <black humor>

13: of or relating to covert intelligence operations <black government programs>

14.Lazy


i already know that that words definitions change and shit like that, but the fact that u fit the "new" definition of religion ALONG with christianity, Islam, and Judaism, still means that it is a religion because of the associations u have with the ones i listed (or any other ones).

THE 5% HAVE NO ASSOCIATION WITH RELIGION, YOU SIMPLY WANT THE 5% TO BE A RELIGION. ACCORDING TO EVERY DEFINITION YOU POSTED THE 5% ARE NOT EQUAL TO THOSE QUALITIES OF BEING A RELIGION.

THE 5% DON'T BELIEVE, NOR DO THE 5% HAVE A BELIEF SYSTEM.

THERE'S NOTHING IN YOUR DEFINITION FOR RELIGION THAT TALK ABOUT THE 5%.

YOU DON'T KNOW WHO AND WHAT THE 5% ARE, YOU ONLY BELIEVE.

WARPATH
09-08-2008, 10:44 AM
THE 5% HAVE NO ASSOCIATION WITH RELIGION, YOU SIMPLY WANT THE 5% TO BE A RELIGION. ACCORDING TO EVERY DEFINITION YOU POSTED THE 5% ARE NOT EQUAL TO THOSE QUALITIES OF BEING A RELIGION.

THE 5% DON'T BELIEVE, NOR DO THE 5% HAVE A BELIEF SYSTEM.

THERE'S NOTHING IN YOUR DEFINITION FOR RELIGION THAT TALK ABOUT THE 5%.

YOU DON'T KNOW WHO AND WHAT THE 5% ARE, YOU ONLY BELIEVE.

The 5% is a religion, just like any other religion out there. Please don't lie to yourself.


Peace.

LORD NOSE
09-08-2008, 10:54 AM
The 5% is a religion, just like any other religion out there. Please don't lie to yourself.


Peace.

what is the 5% ? - is the 85% a religion also ?

what about the 10% ?

what kind of religion is the 10% ?











Quote:
Originally Posted by SUNNY WINTERS http://www.wutang-corp.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.wutang-corp.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1306780#post1306780)
Definitions of words change

what they truly mean and what the people say they mean are not one and the same

so yes - according to todays websters dictionary, what we do would be considered the practice of a religion

NO, ACCORDING TO WEBSTERS DICTIONARY WHAT THE 5% DO WOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED THE PRACTICE OF A RELIGION.

KNOWLEDGE GOD. WHAT IS THE MEANING OF CIVILIZATION? ONE HAVING KNOWLEDGE.......THAT'S THE FOUNDATION, KNOWLEDGE. THERE'S NO BELIEF IN THAT.

ELIJAH TAUGHT THAT FARD MEASURED......MAKING MEASUREMENTS IS NOT ROOTED IN BELIEF, IT'S A SCIENTIFIC (SCIENCE MEANS KNOWLEDGE) METHOD FOR GATHERING KNOWLEDGE ON A PARTICULAR SUBJECT.

SOME PEOPLE DON'T KNOW AND UNDERSTAND WHAT'S BEING MEASURED AND WHAT THOSE MEASUREMENTS MEAN....THEY DON'T KNOW THE SIGNIFICANCE SO THEY HAVE BELIEF.

What does websters dictionary say the word Black means ?



My understanding has been made Clearer - thanks


Quote:
Originally Posted by SUNNY WINTERS http://www.wutang-corp.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.wutang-corp.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1306789#post1306789)
we have scientist and doctors - and our scientist and doctors are the best on the planet - go find out -

TRUE INDEED!!!!! SOME PEOPLE STILL LOOKING FOR DOC BROWN AND HIS WHITE LAB COAT AS THE QUALIFICATIONS FOR A DOCOTOR/SCIENTIST. FACE VALUE....

yes - having the teachings makes you a great rapper -

RAPPER? I'D SAY AN M.C. MORE SPECIFICALLY.

a rapper that the whole world follows and tries to imitate - we are here on this site building about the lessons because Wu received the lessons and influenced many others - These Lessons put the modern day Moses in front of the modern day pharaoh so that that we can have enough self love to get our selves out of the situation we are in


True indeed - MC would be the correct title -A Messiah Christ Moving the Crowd whose Motivation is Correct is the goal met - I used what he used to meet him where he is and hopefully was

WARPATH
09-08-2008, 11:21 AM
religion

(rĭ-lĭj'ən) http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/pron.gif

n.

Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
I think it fits the fourth description. I'm not saying it's a bad thing.


THE 5% HAVE NO ASSOCIATION WITH RELIGION, YOU SIMPLY WANT THE 5% TO BE A RELIGION. ACCORDING TO EVERY DEFINITION YOU POSTED THE 5% ARE NOT EQUAL TO THOSE QUALITIES OF BEING A RELIGION.

THE 5% DON'T BELIEVE, NOR DO THE 5% HAVE A BELIEF SYSTEM.

THERE'S NOTHING IN YOUR DEFINITION FOR RELIGION THAT TALK ABOUT THE 5%.

YOU DON'T KNOW WHO AND WHAT THE 5% ARE, YOU ONLY BELIEVE.

It's not productive to bad mouth peoples beliefs because they don't fit a certain paradigm. Arguing over semantics is also counter productive.

Black Man
09-08-2008, 11:26 AM
religion

(rĭ-lĭj'ən) http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/pron.gif

n.


Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.I think it fits the fourth description. I'm not saying it's a bad thing.




It's not productive to bad mouth peoples beliefs because they don't fit a certain paradigm. Arguing over semantics is also counter productive.

then you should stop doing it....don't talk about it be about

LORD NOSE
09-08-2008, 11:26 AM
religion

(rĭ-lĭj'ən) http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/pron.gif

n.

Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.I think it fits the fourth description. I'm not saying it's a bad thing.




It's not productive to bad mouth peoples beliefs because they don't fit a certain paradigm. Arguing over semantics is also counter productive.

the 5% are not a cause,principle,or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

WARPATH
09-09-2008, 10:54 AM
then you should stop doing it....don't talk about it be about

What are you saying? I'm not trying disrespect, I'm just saying there's a lot of judgment getting tossed around here. We should just contribute what we know, respect what other people know, get what we can out of it and keep debates respectful and healthy. Speak up when you see someone stepping out of line, and just tell them that ain't cool. Then we keep this a place of learning instead of bickering and constant arguing over semantics.

Black Man
09-09-2008, 11:19 AM
The 5% is a religion, just like any other religion out there. Please don't lie to yourself.
Peace.

religion
(rĭ-lĭj'ən) http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/pron.gif

n.


Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.I think it fits the fourth description. I'm not saying it's a bad thing.

It's not productive to bad mouth peoples beliefs because they don't fit a certain paradigm. Arguing over semantics is also counter productive.

then you should stop doing it....don't talk about it be about

What are you saying? I'm not trying disrespect, I'm just saying there's a lot of judgment getting tossed around here. We should just contribute what we know, respect what other people know, get what we can out of it and keep debates respectful and healthy. Speak up when you see someone stepping out of line, and just tell them that ain't cool. Then we keep this a place of learning instead of bickering and constant arguing over semantics.

like i said, stop doing it, and don't talk about it, be about it

WARPATH
09-09-2008, 04:36 PM
okay.

Fatal Guillotine
09-09-2008, 06:45 PM
Allah is the standard Arabic word for 'God.'] While the term is best known in the West for its use by Muslims as a reference to God, it is used by Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, in reference to "God". The concepts associated with the term Allah (as a deity) differ among the traditions. the same goes with th aforemention as far as language goes.In Islam, God is the supreme and all-comprehensive divine name. All other divine names are believed to refer back to The One, God. Allah is unique, the only Deity, creator of the universe and omnipotent. Arab Christians today, having no other word for 'God' than Allah, use terms such as Allāh al-Āb "God the Father".

In Islam, Allah is the name of the nameless God, the pivot of the Muslim faith. "He is the only God, creator of the universe, and the judge of humankind." "He is unique (wahid) and inherently one (ahad), all-merciful and omnipotent." The Qur'an insists upon "the reality of Allah, His inaccessible mystery, His various names, and His actions on behalf of His creatures."
According to the tradition of Islam there are 99 Names of God (al-asma al-husna lit. meaning: "The best names") each of which evoke a distinct characteristic of Allah. All these names refer to Allah, the supreme and all-comprehensive divine name. Among the 99 names of God, the most famous and most frequent of these names are "the Merciful" (al-rahman) and "the Compassionate" (al-rahim).

Fatal Guillotine
09-09-2008, 06:49 PM
Kafir (kāfir; plural kuffār) is an Arabic word meaning "rejecter" or "ingrate". In the Islamic doctrinal sense, the term refers to a person who does not recognize God (Allah) or the prophethood of Muhammad (i.e., any non-Muslim) or who hides, denies, or covers the truth. In cultural terms, it is seen as a derogatory term[1] used to describe an unbeliever, non-Muslims, apostate from Islam and even between Muslims of different sects. It is usually translated into English as "infidel" or "unbeliever".

The islamic law (sharia) distinguishes three types of kafirs:

kafir dhimmi, a non-Muslim subject of a state governed in accordance with sharia law
kafir harbi, a non-Muslim living in a non-Muslim country, and
kafir musta'min, a harbi visiting a Muslim country for less than a year.

The word kāfir (and related words, such as the abstract noun kufr "disbelief") is mentioned in the Qur’an in five different senses:

Kufr al-tawheed: to reject the belief in the Oneness of God. The Qur’an says:
As to those who reject faith (kafaru), it is the same to them whether you warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe ([Qur'an 2:6]; Yusuf Ali)
Kufr al-ni`mah: to lack gratefulness to God or to people. The Qur’an says:
Therefore remember Me, I will remember you, and be thankful to Me, and do not be ungrateful to Me. (la takfurun)([Qur'an 2:152]; Shakir)
(Pharaoh) said (to Moses): … And you did (that) deed of yours which you did, and you are one of the ungrateful (kafireen)([Qur'an 26:18]; Shakir)
Kufr at-tabarri: to disown/clear oneself from. The Qur’an says:
Indeed, there is for you a good example in Ibrahim and those with him when they said to their people: “Surely we are clear of you (kafarna bekom).” ([Qur'an 60:4]; Shakir)
Kufr al-juhud: to deny. The Qur’an says:
When there comes to them that which they [should] have recognized, they refuse to believe in (kafaru) it.([Qur'an 2:89]; Yusuf Ali)
Kufr at-taghtiyah to hide/bury something, like planting a seed in the ground. The Qur’an says:
The likeness of vegetation after rain, whereof the growth is pleasing to the husbandman (kuffar.) ([Qur'an 57:20]; Pickthall)




The word kufr can also be applied to a Muslim when he is doing something wrong, but not necessarily something that would place him or her outside the state of belief in Islam. For example, a Muslim who is able to perform the Hajj but does not go, without denying the need to go, would be committing an act of kufr in a sense of ungratefulness to God.

Verily, the first House (of worship) appointed for mankind was that at Bakkah (Makkah), full of blessing, and a guidance for Al-'Alamîn (the mankind and jinns). In it are manifest signs (for example), the Maqâm (place) of Abraham (Arabic:Ibrâhim) ; whosoever enters it, he attains security. And Hajj (pilgrimage to Makkah) to the House (Ka'bah) is a duty that mankind owes to God (Arabic:Allah), those who can afford the expenses (for one's conveyance, provision and residence); and whoever disbelieves(wa man kafara) [i.e. denies Hajj (pilgrimage to Makkah), then he is a disbeliever of God], then God stands not in need of any of the 'Alamîn (mankind and jinns)([Qur'an 3:96]).
In the Qur'an the phrase "O disbelievers" (yā kuffār, Ya ayuhalathina kafaru, or Ya ayuhal-kafirun) is found only in these two places:

In Hellfire, we seek refuge in God from it. The Qur’an says what means:
"[Then it will be said]: 'O ye who disbelieve (Ya ayuhalathina kafaru)! Make no excuses for yourselves this day.'" ([Qur'an 66:7])
In Surat Al-Kafirun (109):
"Say [O Muhammad]: 'O ye that reject faith (al-Kafirun)! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship.'"
In the rest of the Qur'an, the Qur'anic style follows two principles:

To label certain sayings or actions to be sayings or actions of kufr (disbelief or rejection of faith), without labeling any specific group of people with that name and calling them with it. For example, the Qur’an says what means:
Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely God is the third [person] of the three. And there is no god but One God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve [reject]. Will they not then turn to God and ask His forgiveness? And God is Forgiving, Merciful. The Messiah, son of Mary is but a messenger; messengers before him have indeed passed away; and his mother was a truthful woman.([Qur'an 5:73])
To distinguish clearly between idol-worshippers, on one hand, and believers in God and a Script that went through a phase of corruption, on the other hand. God called the later group only by the name "People of the Book." For example, the Qur'an says what means:
Quite a number of the People of the Book wish they could turn you [people] back to infidelity after ye have believed, from selfish envy, after the truth hath become manifest unto them. But, forgive and overlook, till Allah accomplish His purpose; for God Hath power over all things.([Qur'an 2:109])
It is He Who got out the Unbelievers among the People of the Book from their homes at the first gathering [of the forces]. Little did ye think that they would get out: And they thought that their fortresses would defend them from God! But the [wrath of] God came to them from quarters from which they little expected [it], and cast terror into their hearts, so that they destroyed their dwellings by their own hands and the hands of the Believers, take warning, then, O ye with eyes [to see]([Qur'an 59:2])

Fatal Guillotine
09-09-2008, 06:58 PM
middle eastern people wrote the Quran

and if we all did our research we would know they most middle eastern people have african descent in their blood.

Olive Oil Goombah
09-09-2008, 07:01 PM
SO basically your on a teutonic like quest to prove superiority??? Don't worry, anyone with a half a brain knows of your types hidden agendas.

Fatal Guillotine
09-09-2008, 07:03 PM
what is the meaning of religion

A religion is a set of tenets and practices, often centered upon specific supernatural and moral claims about reality, the cosmos, and human nature, and often codified as prayer, ritual, or religious law. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and religious experience. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction.


what are beliefs?

Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.

The relationship between belief and knowledge is subtle. Believers in a claim typically say that they know that claim. For instance, those who believe that the Sun is a god will report that they know that the Sun is a god. However, the terms belief and knowledge are used differently by philosophers

The relationship between belief and knowledge is that a belief is knowledge if the belief is true, and if the believer has a justification (reasonable and necessarily plausible assertions/evidence/guidance) for believing it is true.

A false belief is not considered to be knowledge, even if it is sincere. A sincere believer in the flat earth theory does not know that the Earth is flat. Similarly, a truth that nobody believes is not knowledge, because in order to be knowledge, there must be some person who knows it.

Fatal Guillotine
09-09-2008, 07:07 PM
SO basically your on a teutonic like quest to prove superiority??? Don't worry, anyone with a half a brain knows of your types hidden agendas.

we are not on a quest to prove superiority but on a quest to show and prove righteousness.

and righteousness implies that a person's actions are justified, and can have the connotation that the person has been "judged" or "reckoned" as leading a life that is pleasing to God. Righteousness is also used as an attribute for God. Psalm 2 speaks of one being shielded by God and receiving favor because of righteousness.

Olive Oil Goombah
09-09-2008, 08:42 PM
but what makes you so righteous? Because you follow a certain movement and its guidlines?
Do you believe in levels of righteousness

Fatal Guillotine
09-10-2008, 09:06 AM
Qur'an 2:177
It is not righteousness
That ye turn your faces toward East or West;
But it is righteousness -
To believe in Allah (The One and Only God)
And the Last Day
And the Angels
And the Book
And the Messengers;
To spend of your substance out of love for Him
For your kin
For orphans
For the needy
For the wayfarer
For those who ask,
And for the ransom of slaves;
To be steadfast in prayer
And practice regular charity;
To fulfil the contracts which ye have made;
And to be firm and patient in pain (or suffering) and adversity
And throughout all periods of panic.
Such are the people of truth the Allah-fearing (God-conscious).

Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has faith, verily, to them will We give a new Life, a life that is good and pure, and We will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions." Surah 16:97


Matthew 5:1-48
Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down, his disciples came to him. And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying: “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. ...


Genesis 4:1-26
Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, “I have gotten a man with the help of the Lord.” And again, she bore his brother Abel. Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, and Cain a worker of the ground. In the course of time Cain brought to the Lord an offering of the fruit of the ground, and Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions. And the Lord had regard for Abel and his offering, but for Cain and his offering he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and his face fell. ...


1 Timothy 5:8
But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.


Romans 13:4
For he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.


John 18:1-40
When Jesus had spoken these words, he went out with his disciples across the Kidron Valley, where there was a garden, which he and his disciples entered. Now Judas, who betrayed him, also knew the place, for Jesus often met there with his disciples. So Judas, having procured a band of soldiers and some officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, went there with lanterns and torches and weapons. Then Jesus, knowing all that would happen to him, came forward and said to them, “Whom do you seek?” They answered him, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus said to them, “I am he.” Judas, who betrayed him, was standing with them. ...


Matthew 26:52-54
Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?”


Matthew 5:38-39
“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.


Matthew 4:1-25
Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And after fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.” But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” Then the devil took him to the holy city and set him on the pinnacle of the temple ...


Proverbs 25:26
Like a muddied spring or a polluted fountain is a righteous man who gives way before the wicked.


Psalm 46:1
To the choirmaster. Of the Sons of Korah. According to Alamoth. A Song. God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.


2 Chronicles 17:1-19
Jehoshaphat his son reigned in his place and strengthened himself against Israel. He placed forces in all the fortified cities of Judah and set garrisons in the land of Judah, and in the cities of Ephraim that Asa his father had captured. The Lord was with Jehoshaphat, because he walked in the earlier ways of his father David. He did not seek the Baals, but sought the God of his father and walked in his commandments, and not according to the practices of Israel. Therefore the Lord established the kingdom in his hand. And all Judah brought tribute to Jehoshaphat, and he had great riches and honor. ...


Judges 5:8
When new gods were chosen, then war was in the gates. Was shield or spear to be seen among forty thousand in Israel?


Deuteronomy 28:47-48
Because you did not serve the Lord your God with joyfulness and gladness of heart, because of the abundance of all things, therefore you shall serve your enemies whom the Lord will send against you, in hunger and thirst, in nakedness, and lacking everything. And he will put a yoke of iron on your neck until he has destroyed you.


Deuteronomy 28:1-68
“And if you faithfully obey the voice of the Lord your God, being careful to do all his commandments that I command you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, if you obey the voice of the Lord your God. Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the field. Blessed shall be the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground and the fruit of your cattle, the increase of your herds and the young of your flock. Blessed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl. ...


Leviticus 26:1-46
“You shall not make idols for yourselves or erect an image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land to bow down to it, for I am the Lord your God. You shall keep my Sabbaths and reverence my sanctuary: I am the Lord. “If you walk in my statutes and observe my commandments and do them, then I will give you your rains in their season, and the land shall yield its increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. Your threshing shall last to the time of the grape harvest, and the grape harvest shall last to the time for sowing. And you shall eat your bread to the full and dwell in your land securely. ...


Exodus 22:2-3
If a thief is found breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no bloodguilt for him, but if the sun has risen on him, there shall be bloodguilt for him. He shall surely pay. If he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.


Exodus 22:1-31
“If a man steals an ox or a sheep, and kills it or sells it, he shall repay five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep. If a thief is found breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no bloodguilt for him, but if the sun has risen on him, there shall be bloodguilt for him. He shall surely pay. If he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft. If the stolen beast is found alive in his possession, whether it is an ox or a donkey or a sheep, he shall pay double. “If a man causes a field or vineyard to be grazed over, or lets his beast loose and it feeds in another man's field, he shall make restitution from the best in his own field and in his own vineyard. ...


Exodus 21:24-25
Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.


Exodus 20:1-26
And God spoke all these words, saying, “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. “You shall have no other gods before me. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, ...


Mark 12:31
The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”


Mark 7:1-37
Now when the Pharisees gathered to him, with some of the scribes who had come from Jerusalem, they saw that some of his disciples ate with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed. (For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands, holding to the tradition of the elders, and when they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions that they observe, such as the washing of cups and pots and copper vessels and dining couches.) And the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, “Why do your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled hands?” ...


Matthew 15:1-39
Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.” He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,” ...


1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.


Titus 3:5
He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,


2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.


The righteous man finds delight..in the law of Allah(God)

As far as guidelines
there is ethics, right and wrong, and the ability to and to not conform.

You may ask what is the law of allah

Sharia is the body of Islamic religious law. The term means "way" or "path to the water source"; it is the legal framework within which the public and private aspects of life are regulated for those living in a legal system based on Islamic principles of jurisprudence and for Muslims living outside the domain. Sharia deals with many aspects of day-to-day life, including politics, economics, banking, business, contracts, family, sexuality, hygiene, and social issues.

There is no strictly static set of laws of sharia. Sharia is more of a system of how law ought to serve humanity, a consensus of the unified spirit, based on the Qur'an (the religious text of Islam), hadith (sayings and doings of Muhammad and his companions), Ijma (consensus), Qiyas (reasoning by analogy) and centuries of debate, interpretation and precedent.