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Art Vandelay
11-10-2008, 02:49 PM
I watched a documentary on the Vietnam War Memorial. I've never cried watching a movie or anything, but i had tears in my eyes while watching this. people still leave notes and pictures and all sorts of things at the wall everyday to commemerate their friends and family members. everyday, the parks service picks everything up and stores it in this enormous museum.

one day they found a note that was an apology letter. a soldier apologized for killing an enemy soldier. on the man he killed, he found a picture of him with his daughter. the guy carried it with him for years, until the day he decided to leave the apology note with the picture. some time later, he went back to the museum and asked for the picture back. he returned it to the dead soldiers family and begged for forgiveness. they were thrilled because that was the only known picture of him.

sad ass shit. wonder what it's going to be like for these kids 25 years from now that are fighting in iraq

Longbongcilvaringz
11-10-2008, 02:58 PM
Um...

I'll hold my tongue.

TAURO
11-10-2008, 03:01 PM
War is evil but it's a nessesary evil. It is upsetting when you watch these types of documentarys. We as people should strive to learn from each war so that these soldiers did not die in vain, that to me is a much better way of honoring their memory than flowers and a memorial plaque ever could.

Longbongcilvaringz
11-10-2008, 03:04 PM
How is war necessary?

Because people have continually engaged in it throughout history?

Soldiers in Vietman did die in vain, completely.

Anyway, i'll hold my tongue.

PuNcH_iN_PuNcH_OuT
11-10-2008, 03:08 PM
The Vietnam war and the Iraq war where both unnecessary

TAURO
11-10-2008, 04:13 PM
How is war necessary?

Because people have continually engaged in it throughout history?

Soldiers in Vietman did die in vain, completely.

Anyway, i'll hold my tongue.

You're right about Vietnam, I mean't as a whole.

BRONZBODY
11-10-2008, 05:27 PM
yeah my uncle tells me stories about nam man......he just hasnt been the same ever since. he was forced to do shit a human being shouldnt even be subject too

Edgar Erebus
11-10-2008, 05:57 PM
War is evil but it's a nessesary evil. It is upsetting when you watch these types of documentarys. We as people should strive to learn from each war so that these soldiers did not die in vain, that to me is a much better way of honoring their memory than flowers and a memorial plaque ever could.

One of my cousins lies in pieces somewhere in northern Bosnia.

My other cousin still wakes up in cold sweat few nights weekly.

I've never seen my uncle laugh since he came back from the first line. I heard he was a very loud and humorous person before.

My father's radio position was hit by a grenade some 20 minutes after his shift ended.



Only thing you can learn from any war is that it should be avoided at all costs.

BRONZBODY
11-10-2008, 05:59 PM
One of my cousins lies in pieces somewhere in northern Bosnia.

My other cousin still wakes up in cold sweat few nights weekly.

I've never seen my uncle laugh since he came back from the first line. I heard he was a very loud and humorous person before.



Only thing you can learn from any war is that it should be avoided at all costs.real talk son real talk

my best friend saw his older brother get blown in half right in front of him
in afganistan a few years back


i can only imagine them cats mindstate

Edgar Erebus
11-10-2008, 06:01 PM
yeah my uncle tells me stories about nam man......he just hasnt been the same ever since. he was forced to do shit a human being shouldnt even be subject too

My uncle never tells any stories. I know from people that were with him there that he was in his brigade HQ when airplane bombed the crowded parking lot in front of it.

I can't blame him for never telling anything.

BRONZBODY
11-10-2008, 06:07 PM
My uncle never tells any stories. I know from people that were with him there that he was in his brigade HQ when airplane bombed the crowded parking lot in front of it.

I can't blame him for never telling anything.yeah my pops asked him once why he keeps talking about the stuff he saw he told him its the olny way he keeps from going insane. is by talking about it

HANZO
11-10-2008, 06:15 PM
i got loads of fam in the military and i always hear the war stories. i have fam buried in Isreal, Yemen and South Korea.

the war stories are brutal as fuck, like walking along the mountains non-stop for 2 days. sometimes soldiers would pray for the enemy to open fire so they could jus sit down behind cover.

even a story where my cousins special forces regiment had enough with their M-16's and M4's their commander sent a couple soldiers over the border into Syria to buy AK's for the squad.

They all dnt like war, but they see it as a thing that must be done, so they happy to do it.

Edgar Erebus
11-10-2008, 06:20 PM
Yeah, it's prolly because Turkey is constantly at war somewhere, so y'all got used to it, but here it all started after 40 years of peace. Peace is a good thing, people just don't know to appreciate it when it's here.

In Bosnia the first casualty of war was a college girl shot down by sniper at HUGE peace demonstrations.

BRONZBODY
11-10-2008, 06:22 PM
^ word i hate war and i wish them cats were not over there but this i somthing u have to do when u sign up and take the oath son.

Edgar Erebus
11-10-2008, 06:29 PM
Yeah, bet. You know how come my pops became a fighter? He was the third mobilizational wave - that meant only 24 hrs of training (he was in navy before, so he was even lucky). Then all of a sudden whole first wave and half of the second "moved" to Italy. Those were actually having full frontline course and all took oath and everything. You don't have to do anything, it's only about what balls are on you. My pops knew he couldn't look anyone in face anymore if he deserted too, so he went on the frontline.

They gave him an AK-74 and three full cartridges of 7.62 bullets. Brilliant job organization, straight.

drippie k
11-10-2008, 07:41 PM
i got a friend in the spanish military who got sent to afghanistan and watched his friend since middle school's truck get blown up right in front of him


war is sometimes necessary but damn..............some of the shit you hear about.....

TSA
11-10-2008, 07:46 PM
my dad was watching it and i went to sleep, will it be on again soon?

and yeah, my family was in the middle of a war, and that shit is real.
i don't see how it's nessacary. It always starts from one person's idea of how to cure all the worlds problems by making some political move, then in an attempt to better people inflict the most grusome ugly aspect of humanity. Totally selfdefeating. It's nessacary but doesn't need to be if ppl wouldn't put their ideas before people.

Olive Oil Goombah
11-10-2008, 08:09 PM
What is war? Basically two guys going at it only escalated on enormous proportions. As long as there is a human race, there is going to be fighting, wars, etc.

Its always been brutal, but in the modern era, with all the new technology and killing machines, its taken on an even more gruesome and murderous quality.
And its less 'humane' for lack of a better word. Instead of hand to hand combat, now you got bombs and bullets that rip people into shreds.

I encourage anyone who is interested in the perils of warfare, especially modern warfare to study World War I and its effect on its participants, what they went thru...etc.

There is a good book called Not So Quiet...
Its about a nurse on the Western Front and all the horrors that she witnesses. its fiction, but based on fact.

Art Vandelay
11-10-2008, 09:24 PM
this trailer doesn't do the documentary justice, but...

uJrCN83mb8o

it's on the smithsonian channel tomorrow at 9pm and 1am

here's another clip

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1155838635?bclid=452316777&bctid=1328195260

ilzPotent
11-11-2008, 02:18 PM
Wow its actually serious in here..

This security guard that USE to work at my job was in Iraq.

Well the first day he spoke to me, he told me take I look like a tough lady and he hope he will never have to take me down.. (umm yea - I work at a law firm) So, of course, great line I took it - hook, line and sinker. But he was serious. He started talking about certain things that he saw and people that he trained with getting killed and when he finished, he told me he had to go to the bathroom to calm down.

Truth.

It's a shame that people really aren't prepared for what they are going to see in war... fricking brutes.

and BTW, its only necessary to lace the pockets of international bankers.

Hi, Mr. Bateman..

food for thought
11-11-2008, 02:21 PM
i feel bad for Palestinians and other oppressed people before i give a fuck about the US military. and thats real...

ilzPotent
11-11-2008, 02:25 PM
They all bleed the same. These young boy are told they're heroes and they're fighting for their country just like the middle eastern people are told they're martyrs and they will get a harem of woman in the afterlife, just like communist countries, where enlistment is mandatory. Its all the fucking same. Who are you trying to feed?

Longbongcilvaringz
11-11-2008, 02:35 PM
i feel bad for Palestinians and other oppressed people before i give a fuck about the US military. and thats real...

Those were my thoughts also.

But everyone does suffer.

Hello potent one.

Longbongcilvaringz
11-11-2008, 02:38 PM
I feel bad for anyone engaged in war regardless of ethnicity or race...

But from a completely different perspective, war is necessary.

In these times (and for any era for that matter) there's always been power hungry individuals who've wanted more power, and are willing to get it by any means necessary....including picking on the less fortunate.

Though the current wars like Afgahnistan & Iraq and such have nothing to do with us and (it seems) to be completely a civil-based war....I'm glad that some1 has at least made the effort to step up and thwart such crazed-power-hungry tyrants/dictators.

Though such wars are flooded with conspiracy theories and conflicts, the fact is this'll always be a 50-50 debate, and even though I disagree with MOST of the issues based on t he current war, other issues seem valid for us to still have soldiers over seas.

In one aspect, I've told myself and others 'why dont we just let themseleves blow each other up and be rid of it? If that's what they want, who cares? It's not my problem...'

But then I've told myself, if every1 had this mentality, where would the 'war on drugs' or 'gang-related units in police departments' and such be? Eveeything would be anarchy.......(<--- very loosly based descrpition....)

But bottomline, I think war is necessary....though I really do wish people could resolve issues in a none-violent manner, but that perspective is as realistic as the the belief Santa Clause.


But this is a whole other huge huge topic.....I rather have discussions with this stuff face to face, so I usually avoid these topics online......it's too difficult.

Hm, yeah, but it is Inevitable rather than Necessary in my opinion.

People can live without violence, a lot of people just choose not to.

Since this seems to be the majority, and the majority dictates the direction which nations take in this regard, than war is inevitable.

Senator C. Palantine
11-11-2008, 02:47 PM
I have a friend in the marines.

He's been in Iraq and Afghanistan.

He's killed alot of people.

He's changed.

I used to think he was a good person, but im not so sure now.

He's full of hate.

Art Vandelay
11-11-2008, 02:50 PM
They all bleed the same. These young boy are told they're heroes and they're fighting for their country just like the middle eastern people are told they're martyrs and they will get a harem of woman in the afterlife, just like communist countries, where enlistment is mandatory. Its all the fucking same. Who are you trying to feed?


exactly, every country, religion, military, etc. uses the same old propaganda techniques. i don't know how old everyone is here, but i think completely different now then i did when i was 18. i probably would have fallen for that same bullshit if i joined the military when i was 18.

Longbongcilvaringz
11-11-2008, 02:50 PM
Got to change a person.

Art Vandelay
11-11-2008, 02:52 PM
I have a friend in the marines.

He's been in Iraq and Afghanistan.

He's killed alot of people.

He's changed.

I used to think he was a good person, but im not so sure now.

He's full of hate.

i had a friend who had a great job. he made lot's of money. after sept. 11th, he quit his job and joined the marines. i thought that was the greatest thing in the world. but back then, i bought into all of george bush's bullshit like most people did. when he came back, he told me some stories about killing people. how it was neccessary. he even used his christianity as an excuse. i noticed a change in him that day. he was no different than the iraqis that he was fighting for their muslim beliefs.

INF
11-11-2008, 02:54 PM
I be coming close to tears everyday over the most serious or even the most simple shit.

Longbongcilvaringz
11-11-2008, 03:00 PM
i had a friend who had a great job. he made lot's of money. after sept. 11th, he quit his job and joined the marines. i thought that was the greatest thing in the world. but back then, i bought into all of george bush's bullshit like most people did. when he came back, he told me some stories about killing people. how it was neccessary. he even used his christianity as an excuse. i noticed a change in him that day. he was no different than the iraqis that he was fighting for their muslim beliefs.

True.

Well, it is these peoples jobs to do it.

If i was in the same position, i would have to justify it to myself in some way, or completely denounce it.

Either option is pretty tough.

I be coming close to tears everyday over the most serious or even the most simple shit.

Word.

ilzPotent
11-11-2008, 03:10 PM
I be coming close to tears everyday over the most serious or even the most simple shit.

hola hombre.

Anything to do with war touches me, I was watching a documentary recently on Hiroshima, this old lady was there being interviewed. She survived because she was underground when it hit and she spoke of the repurcussions of the bomb. I saw pictures and man, it was heart wretching. No crops, deformed babies being born and just suffering of the biggest magnitude and to think real people celebrated this.

Absurd amount of hate in people, it disgust me. I'm glad they have rebuilt to be one of the most beautiful and prominent areas of Japan.

Longbongcilvaringz
11-11-2008, 03:15 PM
Hiroshima was terrible.

Some people make the argument that it was necessary.

INF
11-11-2008, 03:15 PM
Hello Ilz!

ilzPotent
11-11-2008, 03:18 PM
So Unnecessary...

Olive Oil Goombah
11-11-2008, 03:44 PM
Hiroshima was terrible.

Some people make the argument that it was necessary.


First of all, before you make a statement like that, you need to look into things a little bit more.

Had the US chosen to invade Japan, the intial invasion, it was estimated would mean the lose of 100,000 American soldiers, not to mention the Japanese that would be killed.

And the invasion would take several months, maybe years, and the resulting death toll for the civilians would have been enormous.

Its not like they just sat there nuke happy waiting to bomb some Japs.

I dont kno whether it was the right move or not, but it very well could have resulted in less deaths than if the US went with an invasion.



LOL@ food for thoughts comments. WHy are you still living here?? See how welcome you would be in Palestine.

ilzPotent
11-11-2008, 03:54 PM
He needs to change his name to Halal for thought...

Olive Oil Goombah
11-11-2008, 03:58 PM
He's a douchebag

Longbongcilvaringz
11-11-2008, 04:17 PM
First of all, before you make a statement like that, you need to look into things a little bit more.

Had the US chosen to invade Japan, the intial invasion, it was estimated would mean the lose of 100,000 American soldiers, not to mention the Japanese that would be killed.

And the invasion would take several months, maybe years, and the resulting death toll for the civilians would have been enormous.

Its not like they just sat there nuke happy waiting to bomb some Japs.

I dont kno whether it was the right move or not, but it very well could have resulted in less deaths than if the US went with an invasion.


Yes, i know, i see the point made a lot.

A lot of people talk about how it ended the war, and as a result was a good thing.

It makes sense in some regards.

However, i can't see how it was necessary.

Nuclear warfare to me seems completely unnecessary in general.

Even as a last resort.

I don't feel as though a quick end to a conflict, which results over 100,000 casualties (i can't actually remember how many, but i think it was something like 70,000 initially and then more later.) is justifiable in any circumstances.

Your talking about military casualties also , which, as tragic as they are, are more acceptable to me than civilian casualities.

The additional destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki also has to be factored in.

Obviously, your knowledge of history is much better than mine, but from memory the subsequent US occupation of Japan was not without fairly sizable civilian causalities.

And the US had plans to drop more nukes before Japanese surrender.

I'm still pretty content with saying it say completely unnecessary.

HANZO
11-11-2008, 04:44 PM
the Nuke did stop the war, but the Japanese ppl suffered for many years later because of the radioactivity. the use of chemicals in war is unjustifiable.

Art Vandelay
11-11-2008, 04:49 PM
I can see everyone's point, but why are there rules for war? isn't the saying all is fair in love and war? how are chemicals any worse than bullets bombs or grenades

Longbongcilvaringz
11-11-2008, 05:02 PM
I guess it all comes down to the magnitude of the harm inflicted.

But yes, your point is a fair one.

Although, it is more difficult to inflict harm and death on a massive scale with a knife, than with a gun and so forth.

Warfare "morals" are somewhat pointless though i feel.

But since war is inevitable, it is worth trying to minimise the harm in my opinion.

Olive Oil Goombah
11-11-2008, 06:07 PM
chemicals were technically banned after WWI during the Geneva convention.

Olive Oil Goombah
11-11-2008, 06:11 PM
I guess it all comes down to the magnitude of the harm inflicted.

But yes, your point is a fair one.

Although, it is more difficult to inflict harm and death on a massive scale with a knife, than with a gun and so forth.

Warfare "morals" are somewhat pointless though i feel.

But since war is inevitable, it is worth trying to minimise the harm in my opinion.

Pat i guess it comes down to not sacrifices 100.000 plus american lives, whether they are soldiers or not, when you could drop a nuke and hopefully end it without any one of yours dying.

I dunno...either way, lots of people are dying, and dont forget that WWII was a total war, meaning cities and civilians were being bombed by both sides.
So Tokyo, Hiroshima,and every other major city would have sustained a ton of relentless bombing.

Did you see footage of Berlin, London, Stalingrad after the battles???

I dont really see a huge difference.

Longbongcilvaringz
11-12-2008, 03:51 AM
Yes, i understand your point of view.

My only attitude to things that happen during a war, is one of doing the least harm possible.

I guess it is somewhat debatable that this was the case in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

It's difficult to try and decide which method of killing people is "the best", or which tactical decision will result in less people being killed.

Robert
11-12-2008, 04:16 AM
The human race is self destructive.

The idea that war is necessary is all part of that.

Robert
11-12-2008, 04:22 AM
WmMUuR--Qvo

Longbongcilvaringz
11-12-2008, 04:49 AM
Yep, we are insignificant.

ilzPotent
11-12-2008, 08:25 AM
WmMUuR--Qvo

Where in sam hell do you find anything as depressing as this? How do you search for a video like this.

I'm going to go hang myself now.

Art Vandelay
11-12-2008, 08:47 AM
Amen to that video. and to think that people believe in Jesus and he came to us to save us. look how much more is out there. and to think there is no other life out there is retarded.

Robert
11-12-2008, 08:56 AM
Where in sam hell do you find anything as depressing as this? How do you search for a video like this.

I'm going to go hang myself now.


Are you kidding me? That video is not depressing.

It is humbling and puts things in perspective. We certainly aren't as important as we think we are.

Robert
11-12-2008, 08:58 AM
Amen to that video. and to think that people believe in Jesus and he came to us to save us. look how much more is out there. and to think there is no other life out there is retarded.

Have you seen Sagen explaining the Drake equation? If not here it is......

RB_v99FSTYc

Slothy Fitzpatrick
11-12-2008, 09:29 AM
Speaking of Jesus, Richard Dawkins owns people on a regular basis.
LEl4QfcAK2o

Art Vandelay
11-12-2008, 09:32 AM
Have you seen Sagen explaining the Drake equation? If not here it is......

RB_v99FSTYc


then, you have to multiply that by the 150 or so known galaxies in our universe.

Longbongcilvaringz
11-12-2008, 09:42 AM
Dawkins is a cunt though.

ilzPotent
11-12-2008, 09:50 AM
Are you kidding me? That video is not depressing.

It is humbling and puts things in perspective. We certainly aren't as important as we think we are.


Well don't fret, my fellow kangaroo man - I really wasn't going to hang myself. {:(

I have a grip on perspective, the fact that you found that is what I'm talking about. What key word do you even use for that? Kill me now?

Robert
11-12-2008, 10:01 AM
Well don't fret, my fellow kangaroo man - I really wasn't going to hang myself. {:(

Well, you never know with all that S&M stuff (totally unrelated but haven't people died having asphyxi-wanks?).

I have a grip on perspective, the fact that you found that is what I'm talking about. What key word do you even use for that? Kill me now?

The guy talking is Carl Sagen, a well known astronomer. All I did was type in Carl Sagan.

That photo and his book are entitled "The Pale Blue Dot".

Art Vandelay
11-12-2008, 10:39 AM
carl sagan was also a pot head and wrote an essay on weed smoking under the pen name Mr. X