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Identity
09-09-2005, 12:13 AM
If you got to any place within our culture and tell them "Do you know how to be saved" you will be universally understood. Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, and Christianity are all religions that teach that there is fundamentally something wrong with every one of us, and that the most important thing in this life, is the need to be saved. This is something that noone else can do for you, and your salvation is what matters most to you.

But if you go to the remaining .1% of our population that lives in a different culture and ask them the same question you'll get a very different response. "What? What do I need to be saved from?" If you talk to missionaries who originally went to some of these cultures, you'll hear that they recieved the same responses. The people of other cultures don't feel that there is anything inherently wrong with them. In order for someone to want to be saved, you have to convince them that there is something wrong. This is one of the biggest problems missionaries face.

Why is it that evolutionary scientists don't need to read Darwin's book daily, and physicists don't need to read Newton's Laws daily, but hundreds of millions of people need to read their respective Holy Books daily? For the exact same reason that missionaries have difficulty spreading their religious to different cultures. People need to be convinced, and constantly reminded that there is something inherently wrong with them, and that the most important thing in their life is salvation.

What caused us to believe that their is something wrong with humans? For hundreds of thousands of years humans existed without giving this idea a second thought. Something did go wrong, but it was the nature of humans. It was our culture.

The Agricultural Revolution is one of the most overlooked and amazing developments in the history of the human race. The traditional reason that people give for the birth of this development is that it was a response to famine. But hungry people don't plant a seed, especially during a famine. Hungry people go find food.

There are many types of agriculture. FBut the Agricultural Revolution gave birth to a very specific type of agriculture: totalitarian agriculture. And with this new type of agriculture came a new vision. For hundreds of thousands of years hundreds and thousands of differnet human cultures shared a similar vision: "the world is sacred, and so are we." But in the Fertile Cresent, with the development of totalitarian agriculture, this singular culture developed a new vision: "the world was man to be conquered, and man was made to conquer it."

This new vision alone was not what lead to the almost universal culture we see today. For out of one thousand differenet cultures, a singular radical and destructive one, does not pose a great threat to the world. What was needed for this new culture to explode was the desire to expand.

For hundreds of thousands of years various tribes and cultures would periodically be at war with each other. One year tribe X would attack tribe Y, inflcit some damage, and then leave. For the following three years there would be virtual peace between the two cultures. Then the next year tribe I would attack tribe Y. To infinity. They did not fight for land, they did not desire to and had no intrest in spreading their culture. Why then did they fight?

None of the cultures believed that their culture was the only right culture. They simply did what worked best for them. War was their way of saying "my culture is here, and I can defend it if I need to." Violence is not a destructive thing for all species. It is a control that leads to diversity, and ultimately better chances of survival for the species and individual as a whole. The vast majority of violence exhibited in nature is intraspecies for precisely this reason. Among ten thousand cultures, one destructive culture dosen't pose much of a threat to the survival of the human race as a whole.

But this new culture that was evolving in the Fertile Cresent alongside the introduction of totalitarian agriculture believed something that no human culture had ever believed for hundreds of thousands of years. And that was that their culture was the only right culture. Mixed together with totalitarian agriculture, and their new vision, this third ingredient created a very flamable gunpowder that ignited and swept across the entire globe. Like gunpower, all three indregients need to be present in order for the mixture to have an explosive effect. And ignite the world it did. This singular culture is ten thousand years old, and in that relatively short time has managed to engulf the entire Earth in flames.

Totalitarian agriculture does not bring an end to famine. It dosen't make a more secure food source than hunting and gathering. Totalitarian agriculture is the most labourious source of food production ever invented. Study after study has shown that the more calories you intake, the harder you have to work for your food. Why then would people turn away from a lifestyle that only required a couple hours a day to find and consume ample amounts of food, to accept a lifestyle that required 12 hours of some of the most labourious and back breaking work ever invented and that provided less food than before?

Because in a culture that has totalitarian agriculture, food is power. What you do not consume, you can sell. Alongside this new form of food production, the earliest forms of what we call a true economy developed. Before this culture arrived there had never been a single crime commited in the hundreds of thousands of years of that proceeded it. Before this new era discrepencies were handled in the same way you might handle something making you angry. There were no invented laws. There were no police, judges, or politicians. The community would deal with situations in whatever way best suited the entire community.

As we all know and are seeing more and more everyday, making something illegal and punishing them does not help the victim, does not help the accused, and does not help the community. What laws are is a source of power. And as people began to taste the power that wealth brought them, they decided to manufacture laws to gain even more power and protect their intrests. For hundreads of thousands of years previous to this new culture, their is not one record of a single law ever being in existence. People lived in cultures with no crimes and they accomplished this without ever making any laws.

As the years went by people became wealthier and wealthier, and simultaneously people became poorer and poorer. This is what caused the first ever crime in human history to be committed. And as people became wealthier and poorer crimes grew in number and size. Before this event, noone felt they needed to be saved because they never saw anything that lead them to believe that there was something wrong with them. But as this new culture and totalitarian agriculture spread, people began to see the murders, rapes, theiveries, and other horrific crimes that came with it. No longer were their mutually benificial wars that increased diversity in the human population. This was a new breed of war. One whose sole purpose was to gain new land for agriculture, spread the one right culture, and gain more and more wealth. This is when people began to ask that question in the back of their mind: "What's wrong with us?"

brahma
09-09-2005, 12:20 AM
whatīs the point?

froth
09-09-2005, 12:22 AM
point is he cut and paste gibberish bc hes not looking for answers from the vedic scripts or holy writigs but hes looking at a fiction book written in the 90s about a fucking gorilla


just ignore him loop, but i guess if the spirit moves you do whatever

froth
09-09-2005, 12:25 AM
hahaha whats priceless is the gorilla

Identity
09-09-2005, 12:38 AM
Actually I wrote that myself off of the type of my head. I wrote it on another forum and had saved it.

Identity
09-09-2005, 12:49 AM
"whatīs the point?"

This is one piece of a mosaic that contains thousands of pieces. If you are interested just read it, understand it, and then we can discuss it further. It's giving you guidance to answer those questions you've always had in the back of your mind. Not to say that I have any of the answers at all, just that I think I know where to look for them.

froth
09-09-2005, 12:49 AM
ah i shouldnt have been so harsh, forget about it

brahma
09-09-2005, 12:49 AM
yeah he got a more scientific & unpersonal state of mind on the god theme. i havenīt found the gorilla in his post^ but what i see is he always sayin "they" "people" "that culture" "community" and stuff like that.... i think identity is not caring enough about self but caring alot of what others do or better said - what others did. yo identity. you got non to do with them. live now and recognise that you not them. "they" are not the one who gotta stand for god somewhen- thatīs just you! what you say to god when he asks you what you did for yourself and the world? you donīt say "they people did this and that" cause thatīs not the answer god wanna hear from you then. itīs all about you. froth and me. we just reflecting you like you and froth reflecting me and you and me reflecting froth. we all learn while we discuss like that. in this case. good mornin and good night . maybe next time on this channel... iīm out for good. retarded bastards you are. all ya.. just kiddin- not ;-)

Identity
09-09-2005, 12:54 AM
The world will continue on with or without us. We may stop evolution for a few thousand years, and we may well set it back billions of years. But the fact is that the world will continue on with or without us. The question we have to ask ourselves is do we want to be in that world?

brahma
09-09-2005, 12:56 AM
lol i donīt want to, but god wants me to. i surrender to his will.

froth
09-09-2005, 12:58 AM
ha thats true though. bc it alludes to the fact that as we start to learn we try and conceptualise everything as a whole, but that whole is seperate from god. but you cant tell the difference if all of this is for you, or if there are actually seperate people around. i mean, this is not so far from a dream. the experience you are having is different from mine. its tailor made for you, to lead you where you are supposed to go. its all there, its all specific to you. the people you meet, family, etc. So we can talk about ancient cultures and learn etc but while that may give a little shitty pride about knowing some stuff that, while interesting, isnt infinite, we neglect whats real. a real personal relationhip with god. i know you :believe: in god, but god is real. I mean, there is no dount. its beautiful but you still dont have it easy. reading about other people is easy. working on yourself can be hard. but it gets better bc god is basically just waiting for you.

froth
09-09-2005, 01:00 AM
i tried to phrase that well but my typing is kind of crap

Identity
09-09-2005, 01:01 AM
God is something I feel has no relevance to our decisions here on earth. I believe and have faith He exists, but that is a personal thing. What I'm much more concerned about is whether or not the human race is going to be here is 400 years, and how much we're setting evolution back. It would be terrible to destroy something so beautiful.

The Parable of The Dancers

Long ago in a distant land there lived many different tribes of people. Let's call them the tribes of Alf, Bet, and Tav. They were all people who acquired their food by hunting and gathering. One day they discovered that by dancing for a short period, they could increase the amounts of their favorite foods. All the had to do was dance 1 hour a day, and their favorite trees would produce more of their favorite food. They soon discovered that the more they danced, they more of their favorite food was produced.

The Alf's were quite indifferent to whether they ate their very food or foods of lesser quality and only danced for one hour a day. The people of Bet found strawberries to be quite tasty and delighted in dancing for three hours a day to encourage their growth. But the Tavs absolutely loved their favorite foods, and prefered to eat nothing else. They spent eight hours a day dancing, and soon they had more fruit then they knew what to do with. So they appointed one of their tribal leaders to be in charge of the food. Instead of dancing he would oversee the storage of the food.

On day the Tav people grew tired of dancing. They realized that before they started dancing they only had to work one hour a day to get there food. And that work was by no means stressfull, it was actually quite fun. But dancing for eight hours a day started to make them miserable, for it was the most labourios work ever invented. So they turned to their leader and told him they didn't want to dance any longer.

Their leader however, did not like this change in sentiment. For he had grew quite fond of the power his new position allocated to him. So he met with his trusted friend to discuss what could be done to keep the people dancing. So they sat down and discussed the issue for hours. Finally they came up with a plan.

They decided that if they could lock up the food, they could force the people to dance in order to get food. They would hire two guards and pay them with food as well. The longer you danced, the more food you got.

The people very unhappy, but there was nothing they could do, they had to eat. So they started dancing. This gave the leader more power then he could ever have imagined. But there were only so many trees in his territory. If he wanted more power, he would have to expand. So he went to the Alf's leader and gave him an ultimatim. He told them that they were not using their land efficently, and that they had to dance 8 hours a day for him. The Alf's were only wanted to dance 1 hour a day and initially refused. But the Tav's had so much food that they were able to provide for a much larger army. This new system also allowed them to mass produce objects, so they were able to create more of the best weapons as well. Seeing no other alternative but to submit, the Alf's worked for the Tav's.

The Bet's were given the same ultimatim, but refused to submit, and they were slaughtered. And so it went until every last person was under the rule of the Tav's. There were no longer any distincitons between the tribes. They were all part of the Tav's, but even that had lost its meaning.

froth
09-09-2005, 01:07 AM
"God is something I feel has no relevance to our decisions here on earth."

Man youre really off base

PHI.1.618
09-09-2005, 01:20 AM
"God is something I feel has no relevance to our decisions here on earth."

Man youre really off base


Who are you to say he's off base?

froth
09-09-2005, 01:45 AM
im your real dad

PHI.1.618
09-09-2005, 01:58 AM
im your real dadheh .....

Identity
09-09-2005, 11:27 AM
It's unclear exactly how it happened, but we can take The Parable of The Dancers to be a pretty good example of how it might of happened. We know this by observing what people of other cultures do when they meet our cultural machine. For example, when Europeans came to the Americas a similar story was played out. They made no secret of their idea of Manifest Destiny. Which is perhaps the best representation of our cultural vision.

"God made the earth, and God made man to conquer the earth"

But what is wrong with this vision? This is an issue we haven't discussed yet. Apart from just feeling sorry for the conquered, it's difficult for us, as people living in this culture, to see what's wrong with it. Mother Culture wispers in our ear "that it's all it the name of progress, evolution. It's what humans were meant for. It's was their destiny" We often think of primitive people as unintelligent. But we know this isn't this case. Intelligence is something humans have very little control over. We know humans were around for 3 million years before the Agricultural Revolution, and they have the same level of intelligence as we do. In every primitive tribe there was someone would could have been a rocket scientist, or a mathematician, or discover new elements. The ones that are still left, still do. So let's examine this cultural vision a little closer.

Does anyone know what an evolutionarily dominant strategy is?

Soul Controller
09-09-2005, 11:48 AM
u know these prophets who speak on god, and made these co called holy books.. i use that term very loosely as the war and suffering in these books is anything but fucking holy.

the word messiah meant back at the turn of AD, translated from greek, means channall0r
aka modern day psychic..

why do u think they all went up mountians ? and came back with visionz? most of the mountians that these prophets went up where local names for the SUN.. its all sun worship.. u ever feel what people see form the sun.. light bringer.. food maker. etc wtc..
or u can go for the deep esoteric meaning of this. with the electro magnetic storms the sun has and the electromagnetic storms it sends to earth, that effect us consciously and sub consciously..

how manyof u know this? how many know, that world events and cycles correspond to sun spot acitivity.. coz the powers that be. now when the time is right to do certian things..due to the frequency of the electr magnetic waves...


salvation is needed for the ones who look for it,
if you live rightouesly what do u need salvation from?


Peace.

Prince Rai
09-09-2005, 12:47 PM
salvation is needed for the ones who look for it,
if you live rightouesly what do u need salvation from?


Peace.
peace..

for sure there is much that man follows blindly because they knoe that in the end they will hit gold... aka follow religion blindly cos they are convinced everything will be ok..

hmm..

though i also believe in a God.. i dont follow blindly just to get salvation.. true indeed salvation from what..

if i elevate my own self and show im a godly person.. salvation comes like the light from the sun..

hope dat was clearly written :P

peace n blessingz

Identity
09-09-2005, 12:47 PM
The original post was asking why we feel we need to be saved, and it was giving some ideas about where that answer might lie.

"Does anyone know what an evolutionarily dominant strategy is?"

I'll have to take a different approach here, since I've yet to find a pupil. So I'll answer my own question.

An evolutionarily dominant strategy is an activity that a species engages in, in order to give itsef a better representation in the gene pool. Every species has a dominant strategy, and the sole reason those species are here today, is because that strategy works. Failures do not come into existence, nor do they continue to exist. Each species tries different strategies in order to achieve a higher representation in the gene pool. But there is only one dominant strategy. Take for example the white field mouse. The male white field mouse will venture outside of its home terrirtory and kill off the other white field mice pups that it finds in other nests. While he is doing this, the female white field mouse will kill off the other white field mice pups inside her terrirtory.

Why do they engage in such activities? The reason is because it is the strategy that works. It is the best way the white field mouse could come up with to increase its representation in the gene pool. For example, what if instead of killing other pups, the female were to kill her own pups? That is an evolutinarily unstable strategy, because any mouse that took up that strategy would kill its own gene pool. It's a self destructive activity. The world is made up of successes. Those species that were able to come up with dominant strategies are here precisely because of that reason.

Would we think of saying to these field mice that killing other pups is wrong? That they should stop comitting infanticide. Of course not. Because if they engaged in any other activity, they would eventually disappear from the face of the earth, because any other strategy would be evolutionarily unstable.

The same applies to humans. We are a species on this planet and there is an evolutionarialy stable strategy that applies to us. Humans lived on this planet for 3 million years before the Agricultural Revolution and the birth of our culture, and the sole reason they existed for so long was because they engaged in activities that were evolutionarily dominant. They lived in a way that worked.

Can anyone guess what that strategy was?

Prince Rai
09-09-2005, 12:58 PM
if u need a pupil... then leme just give u sumin

Confucius:
i give my pupil one side of the corner and the pupil gets the other three..


i see u givin us 3 sides Identity

peace

Identity
09-09-2005, 01:06 PM
I don't have any pupils so I'm just stating stuff and not really teaching anything. Learning is something you have to take an active participation in.

Prince Rai
09-09-2005, 01:07 PM
I don't have any pupils so I'm just stating stuff and not really teaching anything. Learning is something you have to take an active participation in.#

correct seems uve learnt a lesson

Identity
09-09-2005, 01:08 PM
Prince: #

correct seems uve learnt a lessonI learned that lesson a while ago. I'm bored and just don't have anything better to do.

Prince Rai
09-09-2005, 01:12 PM
I learned that lesson a while ago. I'm bored and just don't have anything better to do.
great way 2 start thinkin of how 2 save the world..

the one who sleep is already dead so i stay awake and occupy myself with knowledge

Identity
09-09-2005, 01:12 PM
lol, right

Prince Rai
09-09-2005, 01:14 PM
lol, rightindeed it is

Identity
09-09-2005, 07:39 PM
indeed it isn't

Prince Rai
09-10-2005, 09:54 AM
indeed it isn't
lol though u agreed

WARPATH
12-04-2010, 02:10 AM
Found this at the very bottom of the pile.

BUMP.