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LHX
09-16-2005, 09:27 AM
from the melanin thread:

yo lhx, what versions of the i ching did you use to make the connections between what i typed in red to what you got? some are clear but the others arent to me.

i just consulted the stephen karcher edition because it is the most recent, but may not be the most accurate.

peace
PEACE

i have consulted so many versions of the i ching i cant even remember half of them

some of the better ones were by
legge
cleary
wei



the ones i typed were my own

PEACE

if you need some direction lemme know
i may be able to help a bit

hagakure360
09-16-2005, 12:00 PM
yo good looking out. i appreciate it. i could use direction.

i've consulted the i ching only through the three coin method and the yarrow stalk method. the i ching is accurate when i pose questions, but i've never read the whole i ching from end to end, because each hexagram, image, is different. i know the "history" of it. i will check the references you provided.

do you have any thing that provides further insight into the i ching, like trustworthy commentaries from the internet?

peace

Kennings
09-16-2005, 07:21 PM
what is I ching? for those like me who have never heard of it

Dupreez
09-16-2005, 07:33 PM
what is I ching? for those like me who have never heard of it

Second That ^^

Os3y3ris
09-16-2005, 07:47 PM
An asian elemental system used for various purposes. Symbology, divination, etc. The korean flag for example, containts portions of an I Ching symbol known as the taegeuk.

PJ FlemFlam
09-16-2005, 07:58 PM
yeah where can i learn about this too ,Do they have a book on this?

LHX
09-16-2005, 09:27 PM
http://www.geocities.com/lhx2k5/ching.jpg

PEACE

there is a lot of books on the i ching

it takes a lot of dedicated study



and then you get the mysteries of the universe



it is like a map that you learn how to read

PEACE

PHI.1.618
09-16-2005, 10:59 PM
^ what does it say there? Looks like the little huts I build using dominoes ... =\

Os3y3ris
09-17-2005, 12:20 AM
It says a lot of things. 8 sets of three lines gets you the 8 trigrams. heaven, earth, wind, mountain, water, fire, thunder and marsh. These vary slightly depending on who you ask. You put all those together and you get 64 hexagrams. Needless to say, I don't know all 64. They have various meanings based on interpertations of the elements. Anything from "the army" to "limping".

GuardianOne
09-17-2005, 02:08 AM
Just something off topic don't get fooled , YIN and YANG don't form anything, they just harmonize.

GuardianOne
09-17-2005, 02:11 AM
It says a lot of things. 8 sets of three lines gets you the 8 trigrams. heaven, earth, wind, mountain, water, fire, thunder and marsh. These vary slightly depending on who you ask. You put all those together and you get 64 hexagrams. Needless to say, I don't know all 64. They have various meanings based on interpertations of the elements. Anything from "the army" to "limping".
This is not relating to your knowledge. But in general- you see when people put meaning to things they are far from the way.

LHX
09-17-2005, 07:16 AM
This is not relating to your knowledge. But in general- you see when people put meaning to things they are far from the way.
that may be so

but

words are necessary to point in the direction of the way


the way is empty
but words describe the limits


like a destination
with arrows leading you there

LHX
09-17-2005, 07:19 AM
Just something off topic don't get fooled , YIN and YANG don't form anything, they just harmonize.
....

uhhh
i dont know about that

maybe that is something that each individual must decide upon

they DO harmonize

but you can also say that in the process of harmonizing
they form everything

peace

GuardianOne
09-17-2005, 07:39 AM
that may be so
but
words are necessary to point in the direction of the way
the way is empty
but words describe the limits
like a destination
with arrows leading you there
You see words are just an understanding, of what something might be. Can you look at something without looking at it, and not knowing what it is but still looking at it (tell me what is it that you are looking at)are you sure what you're going to say is correct?
For example : If you don't know where you're going, but you are in that way then you have to go with it. And will not need arrows that show you there (almost like those arrows being words).
Lets go back to were we started, so those words are trying to explain something which are not fully perceived and in that sense you have already lost the meaning.
Its like your arrows and lets say a map, arrows can show you how to get somewhere, the map can show you were you are and were you want to get. Now taking that map besides the arrows- if you are a thousand miles away in an environment similar to what is on the map are you sure not to get lost.
Okay you are in the correct place with the proper arrows and the correct map you are now sure that you know the way. but through all these explanations you do not know the way (but have been provided with tools of how to get there), which shows that you do not know how to get there but have been taught how to use the way and in that own sense you have lost the meaning of how to get it( or the essence) so arrows and maps, words and explanations are of man. the essence and the path are of heaven.
Can you be the man of earth or the man of heaven? What do i mean by this? Do you want to know what i mean, or are you meaning to know what i just wrote, maybe what we call "this" is not really what i wanted to say. It might be because its a "word", and what is this so called word with so much meaning. What is meant by meaning?

LHX
09-17-2005, 08:08 AM
You see words are just an understanding, of what something might be. Can you look at something without looking at it, and not knowing what it is but still looking at it (tell me what is it that you are looking at)are you sure what you're going to say is correct?
For example : If you don't know where you're going, but you are in that way then you have to go with it. And will not need arrows that show you there (almost like those arrows being words).
Lets go back to were we started, so those words are trying to explain something which are not fully perceived and in that sense you have already lost the meaning.
Its like your arrows and lets say a map, arrows can show you how to get somewhere, the map can show you were you are and were you want to get. Now taking that map besides the arrows- if you are a thousand miles away in an environment similar to what is on the map are you sure not to get lost.
Okay you are in the correct place with the proper arrows and the correct map you are now sure that you know the way. but through all these explanations you do not know the way (but have been provided with tools of how to get there), which shows that you do not know how to get there but have been taught how to use the way and in that own sense you have lost the meaning of how to get it( or the essence) so arrows and maps, words and explanations are of man. the essence and the path are of heaven.
Can you be the man of earth or the man of heaven? What do i mean by this? Do you want to know what i mean, or are you meaning to know what i just wrote, maybe what we call "this" is not really what i wanted to say. It might be because its a "word", and what is this so called word with so much meaning. What is meant by meaning?
yes

words are a mess


but i am sure you will agree that between 2 people - 'words' or symbols are all we have

what is the meaning of a word?
what is the meaning of a person?
what is the meaning of a rock?

is it possible for 2 people to agree on something?


i hear what you are saying
but
if you truly understood that words are without meaning
i do not think we would be discussing this

peace

GuardianOne
09-17-2005, 08:21 AM
yes

words are a mess


but i am sure you will agree that between 2 people - 'words' or symbols are all we have

what is the meaning of a word?
what is the meaning of a person?
what is the meaning of a rock?

is it possible for 2 people to agree on something?


i hear what you are saying
but
if you truly understood that words are without meaning
i do not think we would be discussing this

peace
True, just tried to expound on that. But you see as humans people try to give meaning to the environment that they are in, i don't it can be to feel more secure, comfortability and such. A rock on the path if left alone is just a rock (that it has always been when you passed that rock. But lift it, touch it, name it, worship it and you give it meaning, great space or lets go back to the origin of this discussion.
The I Ching ( pronounced Yee Ching), well elements, yes there is a lot of that. this is just from thought that we write these things. Something that is there that you can put your own understanding. Its nice.
Like lets say the greatest musician, played exquisite music all his life with the musical instruments. His offspring no matter how much practice was done together will not grasp the essence that was contained by the great musician.

Though this is just a discussion and not real facts that we can point to we can but we need not start that. Anyway its just to see the different points of view.
But its an interesting concept that was put in the I Ching (sorry i have not studied it) but it seems interesting isn't?

LHX
09-17-2005, 08:29 AM
in all honesty

i have never been taught more or entertained more by anything


the i ching was the source of wisdom found in many important pieces of chinese literature
tao te ching
art of war
analects of confucius

it is also the source of wisdom (or lack of wisdom) in all my posts

the lessons never stop

GuardianOne
09-17-2005, 08:45 AM
in all honesty

i have never been taught more or entertained more by anything


the i ching was the source of wisdom found in many important pieces of chinese literature
tao te ching
art of war
analects of confucius

it is also the source of wisdom (or lack of wisdom) in all my posts

the lessons never stop
Theres this one which was called the book of Changes (was it the same on).
Yah Sun-Tzu i have that one. But haven't studied it.
Good loking out.
Well don't talk of the Tao Te Ching (we could start another story)

Peace

LHX
09-17-2005, 11:37 AM
the i ching
is
the book of changes

SubtleEnergies
09-19-2005, 12:03 AM
I Ching has been the dominant factor in my life for the last little while. Good book :)

TeknicelStylez
09-21-2005, 05:37 AM
Yea I'm definately looking into this.

Peace

SubtleEnergies
09-22-2005, 08:39 PM
LHX


I am starting to see a connection between hexagrams now. Alot of the hexagrams tend to tell what qualities you are going to need in preparation for the next hexagram and the next hexagram tends to be the result of what you have done with this advice. It hard to put into words...but they are seeming less like individual texts and more like an interconnected story.

The pattern is subtle...

LHX
09-22-2005, 09:45 PM
hell yeah

keep putting it into practice


eventually it starts to look like the story after which all other stories are based on
or
the real story that other stories only tell a small part of


like watching a fresh movie that keeps you on the edge of your seat

but somehow
it never ends

TeknicelStylez
09-23-2005, 08:54 AM
Yo this sounds real ill, how can I get started on this? Someone help me out.

I'm real interested.

LHX
09-23-2005, 09:07 AM
first thing would prolly be to hit the library and grab a book on the i ching
- i threw down a few authors above

the main thing - at first - is to at least become familiar with it a bit


after that
you might want to take a look at
tao te ching
art of war
analects of confucius

and recognize that those books were taken DIRECTLY from studying the i ching




it took me a lot of work

it still take a lot of work


hit me up if you got any questions or need help finding resources

PEACE

Os3y3ris
09-23-2005, 10:55 AM
Skip The Art of War. Most overrated book ever.

TeknicelStylez
09-23-2005, 12:33 PM
Wow he just called Art of War overrated

LHX
09-23-2005, 01:37 PM
Skip The Art of War. Most overrated book ever.
(i am starting to agree)



PEACE Teknicel

you will see why

hagakure360
09-23-2005, 05:43 PM
im going to look at the i ching again, before i never noticed how one leads to the other.

i never really spent time with the art of war as overrated. why is it some of you view it this way?

peace

Os3y3ris
09-23-2005, 06:17 PM
The book contains a lot of knowledge as far as various strategies go. This is a good thing. However, a good portion of it, generally the parts quoted, is glaring statements of the obvious. Completely random quote:

2. When in difficult country, do not encamp. In country
where high roads intersect, join hands with your allies.
Do not linger in dangerously isolated positions.
In hemmed-in situations, you must resort to stratagem.
In desperate position, you must fight.
Thats definitely correct, but really, am I so ignorant that I planned to go into battle alone? And don't know to fight when shit hits the fan? Thank you Sun Tzu.

57. Confront your soldiers with the deed itself;
never let them know your design. When the outlook is bright,
bring it before their eyes; but tell them nothing when
the situation is gloomy.
Don't tell your soldiers y'all are fucked? Really? Thanks Tzu.

Good stuff, but too simplistic. Not really mind expanding.

I'd rather fuck with something that delves deeper into the strategies in question, not only on the battlefield, but on a social and political level as well.

LHX
09-23-2005, 06:28 PM
im going to look at the i ching again, before i never noticed how one leads to the other.

i never really spent time with the art of war as overrated. why is it some of you view it this way?

peace
i thought the art of war was great at first

but after doing the knowledge on the i ching

art of war seems kind of basic




for the record

i have come to find all books ridiculous

SubtleEnergies
09-23-2005, 08:47 PM
The Art of War does state the obvious. Most Taoist texts do. I could quote half of the I Ching as being glaringly obvious....the thing is as humans we often over look the obvious, or we think we know it when we haven't really taken it in as part of our thinking. I don't totally disagree with O's perspective though.

TECKNICEL:
To get started this is what I did, it may give you some ideas.

First thing is read the whole texts back to front once, maybe even two to three times just to get to know it a bit like LHX said.

After I did this, it must have been like two years ago now? I realized that the book tells you anything you need to know. But I was not happy with tossing coins or some yarrow stalk bullshit to tell me which part I should be applying. This was the time I approached LHX and I remember saying I wanted to understand the energies of a situation so I could judge for myself where I am at.

Personally, my gut feeling is that the I Ching is a very LOGICAL, straight to the point common sense text and flippin coins to read it didn't seem consistent. I also believe the hexagrams were put in a sequence for a reason, not to be randomly chosen. When randomly chosen you might as well be reading fortune cookies.

After I became familiar with the text I would start to flip through it and because I knew the gist of most hexagrams if one caught my attention like "that sounds like the situation I am in!" I would read it and try to APPLY it. My theory here is that if you perceive yourself to be in a situation then, I guess, you basically are. For example, if I feel that the dark in enveloping my light...then no doubt it is...most likely in my attitude fundamentally...but that's something else you will realise most of the hexagrams deal with your attitude coz your situation is often a reflectin of your attitude.

The other day on occult forums in an I Ching discussion people were using the coin method etc to ask the oracle. One guy asked if he should go to Japan next year and received the hexagram THE TRAVELLER (The Wanderer in my text). He took this (I have no idea how) as guidance from the deity that he should travel. This is superstitious crap and dangerous in my view. THE TRAVELLER is an example of the fundamental level - that of attitude and mentality. It advises a person to embody the ATTITUDE of a traveller in a strange land. It actually has nothing to do with a physical journey at all, but rather addresses qualities such as diplomacy, caution etc AS IF we were travellers in a strange land.

Once you get into it a bit, it happened to me, those lines will start to pester you. Why are these ones broken and these ones not? what do these three together mean? Ect etc. This is when I started to build with LHX on firstly the triagrams, and later some hexagrams.

One last thing I would like to say is realise that the I Ching is useless if its not applied. In the Yin and Yang idea of things it actively gives you advice but you must do your half and receive it. The hexagram THE WELL/CHING says similar things. Its not good enough to draw water from the well you have to drink it too.

Its a subtle thing, work on small steps. :)

GuardianOne
09-24-2005, 02:05 AM
Well , for Sun Tzu and Confucius and most of these others don't seem to be much.
What i have studied
Tao Te Ching
Hua Ho Ching
Wen Tzu
Ten Pencils
Chuang Tzu
Pohun Wu-jen
Min Tzu
Hui Tzu
Hu Tzu
Wu-tou-mi-Tao
The Greater Vehicle
The Three Thousand And Odd Things

Some scrolls are difficult to access, most in the western world say even that they don't exist. They are many schools of thought as my celestial master instructed me (Kiyang Cai Ching).

Peace
But all above are Taoist.

hagakure360
09-24-2005, 05:11 PM
this is why i came to this site 2 years ago, to learn more.

peace

LHX
09-24-2005, 07:20 PM
PEACE

if yall cats are talking seriously

i would definitely like to help you get on track


the best thing that i have discovered about the i ching
is that the more people become aware of it
and the more people discuss it

the more i learn about it


for me personally
the goal for teaching the i ching
is so that other people begin to understand it differently than i do

and i can
in turn
learn from other people



all you have to do is get your hands on a book
start familiarizing yourself with it a little
and then ask questions about anything that dont make sense


between me and Subtle
i am sure we can get you going in the right direction



and it is true:
once you start becoming familiar with it

the wisdom pours out of it like somebody just ran their truck into a fire hydrant

PEACE

GuardianOne
09-25-2005, 07:04 AM
PEACE
if yall cats are talking seriously
i would definitely like to help you get on track

Thanx iam sure it would be of assistance to hagakure360, i would not like to disrupt so i will just try and get the gist instead of discussing what i think on what will be related on this subject. But go ahead and expound on it were i can apply my thoughts on it i will try

I also studied

Xin Zhai
Xing ye
Wu suoyin
Wu dao

Peace

TeknicelStylez
09-25-2005, 12:27 PM
Damn, I really need to get into this than, sounds like a good investment.

Me saves pennies up :(

hagakure360
09-25-2005, 12:41 PM
word, it is a good investment, im about to read the i ching front to back now and try to develop the understanding others have reached.

peace

Prince Rai
09-25-2005, 12:57 PM
its a guide to the world.. its simple yet complex.. but you must unlock your self to see how yin becomes yang from start to finish and how it can return and also coincide..

winter to summer.. summer to winter but also winter to spring ad summer to fall/autumn

GuardianOne
09-26-2005, 01:14 AM
I was speaking to a friend of mine staunch confucius supporter. You see he has been studing the I Ching for the past 12 years. And we appeared to reach a basic point. There are a lot of Taoist scripture that contain verses on keeping to the Center, you can find that there is even Zheng (centeredness, center) also Zhong (accurate, compliant, perfect, correct) being able to reach such an extent.
I would like to hear what you think on that based on your perceptions of the I Ching.

Tell us about that?

Peace

SubtleEnergies
09-26-2005, 06:26 AM
OK

I am going to go out here and risk sounding stupid at the expense of being honest.

I physically feel the center. When I am emotional my energy feels scattered. When I am centered I feel like I am holding my energy in my abdomen, specifically my chest.

Does anyone have any idea what I am talking about?

GuardianOne
09-26-2005, 06:53 AM
OK
I am going to go out here and risk sounding stupid at the expense of being honest.
I physically feel the center. When I am emotional my energy feels scattered. When I am centered I feel like I am holding my energy in my abdomen, specifically my chest.
Does anyone have any idea what I am talking about?
You see most are from different schools of thought.
Actually this is not an arguement, when you use words such as emotional and scattered you are already away from the center. Whilst also using expressions such as feel and holding you have missed the point. But in all sense you have a true fact there. When emotional thoughts can be scattered (thus away from the center) whilst for an example when you're "centered" you seem to have control.

That can be a basic expression of what you are trying to reach, but i have not studied the I Ching so it would be better if those who have expound on the same subject (center) there are many but just to proceed. Peace

SubtleEnergies
09-26-2005, 07:24 AM
I don't really understand what you said?

What I was talking about was an actual physical sensation I do actually feel.

GuardianOne
09-26-2005, 07:37 AM
I don't really understand what you said?

What I was talking about was an actual physical sensation I do actually feel.
Lets have others expound on that based on the I Ching. And since you mentioned it is actually a physical sensation felt. Then it requires an entire different comprehension. What i meant by missing the point (was not literal but theory)not your understanding but away from the center.

Peace

SubtleEnergies
09-26-2005, 07:56 AM
Ok..I tihnk I get what you mean.

LHX
09-26-2005, 08:29 AM
I was speaking to a friend of mine staunch confucius supporter. You see he has been studing the I Ching for the past 12 years. And we appeared to reach a basic point. There are a lot of Taoist scripture that contain verses on keeping to the Center, you can find that there is even Zheng (centeredness, center) also Zhong (accurate, compliant, perfect, correct) being able to reach such an extent.
I would like to hear what you think on that based on your perceptions of the I Ching.

Tell us about that?

Peace
keeping to the center physically is the basis for martial art

keeping to the center mentally is the basis for righteousness



based on the i ching:

the i ching describes all of the possible situations:
1. having no knowledge of the center
2. accidentally gaining benefits of being centered
3. abusing the ability to be centered and using it for wrong reasons
4. finding out what it is like to be thrown off center
5. working your way back to being centered
6. knowing that it is righteous to be centered
7. observing that society is not centered


it goes on and on and on and on


i can continue if necessary

PEACE

TeknicelStylez
09-26-2005, 10:29 AM
Ok I just ordered, I Ching: The book of Change by Thomas Cleary

and Tao Te Ching

LHX
09-26-2005, 11:43 AM
the one by cleary is the one i have kept all this time

should definitely give you a good start

GuardianOne
09-27-2005, 10:29 AM
keeping to the center physically is the basis for martial art
keeping to the center mentally is the basis for righteousness
based on the i ching:
the i ching describes all of the possible situations:
1. having no knowledge of the center
2. accidentally gaining benefits of being centered
3. abusing the ability to be centered and using it for wrong reasons
4. finding out what it is like to be thrown off center
5. working your way back to being centered
6. knowing that it is righteous to be centered
7. observing that society is not centered
it goes on and on and on and on
i can continue if necessary
PEACE
Well what might relate to his question might be physical. Lets expound on what LHX has highlighted (I Ching), but this is from my thoughts (taoist anyway)

Good: martial arts, well to achieve a martial art ( i trained Tae Kwon Do) the basic concept was to have courtesy, integrity, perseverence, self-control and indomitable spirit) here I'll zero in on Self-Control:

This relates to mental decipline, i doubt you can feel the center physically unless it is from an external force, what do i mean by this "external" it can be something that you cannot control through your abilities. But the center is based on mental decipline. Physical strength is almost irrelevent here.

Anyway lets not limit to one thing as all things are from one. with inner strength one has to be with the way, harmonization becomes apparent between hard and soft, black and white, yin and yang. with the ever changing achievement in different positions.
To be in the center, to be the center . That's a broad and limited aspect is it not, anyway the body must be completely still, the mind completely still. How is this achieved ( one can get spiritual training, religious training-is this not going too far. Why take such measures for the self). One needs to train the mind to be completely still all must return to one. How can this be?

Well the inner nature and phycological elements of ones being is in complete perfection, cultivation ( what we call as taoists Hsing). Well can you reach the center of the heavens? Purity and still (what we can call Ch'ing Ching)the way of complete perfection, sought of energy practices and tenous connection, you can absorb things and release things. Why not just release everything and retrun to the one (or the original way) what makes you sure that you are at the center, how do you feel the center. Can you think of nothing, achieve this and you might reach the center, the center cannot be felt. What is feeling. Natural (we can use Tzu-jan, or taoshu)The way prevails these things and unifies them. How can you not have knowledge of the center, when you have knowledge of nothing, remember you do not have anything to think about, dwell in nothingness and you can become at one with the forces and they can accept you as one (is this not a center?)

Does the I Ching express such relevance? This is just a broad thought.
The Center through self-control (we can expound on that). Mental and Physical, martial and benevolence,Didn't Confucius expound on this. What does the I Ching say about that.

Peace

LHX
09-27-2005, 10:37 AM
Well what might relate to his question might be physical. Lets expound on what LHX has highlighted (I Ching), but this is from my thoughts (taoist anyway)

Good: martial arts, well to achieve a martial art ( i trained Tae Kwon Do) the basic concept was to have courtesy, integrity, perseverence, self-control and indomitable spirit) here I'll zero in on Self-Control:

This relates to mental decipline, i doubt you can feel the center physically unless it is from an external force, what do i mean by this "external" it can be something that you cannot control through your abilities. But the center is based on mental decipline. Physical strength is almost irrelevent here.

Anyway lets not limit to one thing as all things are from one. with inner strength one has to be with the way, harmonization becomes apparent between hard and soft, black and white, yin and yang. with the ever changing achievement in different positions.
To be in the center, to be the center . That's a broad and limited aspect is it not, anyway the body must be completely still, the mind completely still. How is this achieved ( one can get spiritual training, religious training-is this not going too far. Why take such measures for the self). One needs to train the mind to be completely still all must return to one. How can this be?

Well the inner nature and phycological elements of ones being is in complete perfection, cultivation ( what we call as taoists Hsing). Well can you reach the center of the heavens? Purity and still (what we can call Ch'ing Ching)the way of complete perfection, sought of energy practices and tenous connection, you can absorb things and release things. Why not just release everything and retrun to the one (or the original way) what makes you sure that you are at the center, how do you feel the center. Can you think of nothing, achieve this and you might reach the center, the center cannot be felt. What is feeling. Natural (we can use Tzu-jan, or taoshu)The way prevails these things and unifies them. How can you not have knowledge of the center, when you have knowledge of nothing, remember you do not have anything to think about, dwell in nothingness and you can become at one with the forces and they can accept you as one (is this not a center?)

Does the I Ching express such relevance? This is just a broad thought.
The Center through self-control (we can expound on that). Mental and Physical, martial and benevolence,Didn't Confucius expound on this. What does the I Ching say about that.

Peace
of course the i ching covers that stuff

all taoist practices are based on the i ching

so is martial arts


mental practices and awareness are a significant part of the story
but not the whole story



the i ching does not really deal with the center
more like
it IS the center

PEACE

GuardianOne
09-27-2005, 10:51 AM
of course the i ching covers that stuff
all taoist practices are based on the i ching
so is martial arts
mental practices and awareness are a significant part of the story
but not the whole story
the i ching does not really deal with the center
more like
it IS the center
PEACE
Well the Tao that can be expressed is not the real tao. And the way that is expressed is not the way. The center that is expressed is not the real center.
Taoist practices are based on the way, and it has been the before anything and nothing.

GuardianOne
09-27-2005, 10:52 AM
Practices do not mean you are a taoist, how can you know you are with the center?

Peace

LHX
09-27-2005, 10:58 AM
Practices do not mean you are a taoist, how can you know you are with the center?

Peace
by not trying to explain where you are

instead

being aware of where you are going

LHX
09-27-2005, 11:02 AM
Well the Tao that can be expressed is not the real tao. And the way that is expressed is not the way. The center that is expressed is not the real center.
Taoist practices are based on the way, and it has been the before anything and nothing.
exactly

the tao that can be expressed is not the real tao

thats why i suggested that anybody who studies the i ching should consult as many different sources as possible

because the i ching has no translation

what language is this?:

http://www.geocities.com/lhx2k5/ching/hex48.jpg

any translation is not the real meaning

it is a translation


the i ching is not from the tongue of man

PEACE

GuardianOne
09-28-2005, 01:37 AM
by not trying to explain where you are
instead
being aware of where you are going
If you are studing that you are going to be righteous well, you can say you know were you are going. And you know were you are.

Those who are studing to gain knowledge, if they study to be wise, doesn't that distort the true knowledge they are suppose to attain?
But if so then with the I Ching being the center as you have highlighted, then it only goes that those who study it might reach its highest wisdom. And be centralized to it. Now does that sound proper? And searching for different translations is that not going too far (and away from the center)?
Why not let each person find their own center and harmonize with the way.

Lets go back to the question, so the center that SubtleEnergies felt physically can be said is not the real center? But could have been a sensation (which relates to feeling), what is feeling and what does the I Ching say about that?

Peace
PS: I see you put a piece of the I Ching, what does that one represent?

SubtleEnergies
09-29-2005, 04:34 AM
LHX helped me with my feelings. I think its thunder over earth.

GuardianOne
09-30-2005, 01:04 AM
LHX helped me with my feelings. I think its thunder over earth.
That's nice wise you the best in your studies

Peace

TeknicelStylez
09-30-2005, 09:51 PM
I just got the I ching, and Tao Te Ching, I read through Tao Te Ching already but I'm having some difficulty deciphering some of the stuff in I ching, its pretty confusing.

SubtleEnergies
09-30-2005, 10:25 PM
Really? I thought it would have been the other way around.

Share your troubles and maybe together we can all work through them.

TeknicelStylez
10-01-2005, 04:48 AM
Well like with Tao Te Ching, I just read through it without thinking at all, my mind was blank, but I retained most of it, and I understood it while I was reading it, afterwards I felt enlightened. Later I'm gonna read the authors notes and I'm going to read it a couple of more times. With Tao Te Ching, to be honest I need to grab a dictionary because it's a little above par for my vocabulary. But also just the forms of the proverbs and the structure of it. It seems like sometimes the images don't really explain too much, or even the overview, and than at that same time I don't understand how any of that applies to my life, because I sure as hell can't find any direct relation.

I'm just gonna keep reading it till I figure it out.

SubtleEnergies
10-01-2005, 05:18 AM
Yeah the Tao Teh Ching is like the summary. Its got everything laid down flat.

The I Ching is confusing because of its structure and reading it front to back may mess you up a little.

Basically, each hexagram is a situation you COULD be in. Alot of them you probably aren't in right now. When you know which one you are in it will tell you what to do.

I look at it like this, life is like this test. And a friend of yours did the test (you were of sick or some shit) and he wrote all the answers down. Only catch is he forgot to right down which question the answers are for, so that's what you have to figure out.

That's why you need to become familar with it a bit first. Once you are familar you can start to work out where you are at by looking around, observing and taking in the land marks as points of reference.

If you need any help with the language of anything post it up and I can try and help.

TeknicelStylez
10-01-2005, 05:20 AM
Ok so basically right now I should just be reading it, even if I don't understand it to well, to gain a better comprehension of it as a whole, opposed to individual Trigrams.

SubtleEnergies
10-01-2005, 05:31 AM
Oh fuck yeah. Those trigrams definitely aren't a first step. Also be cautious of any book passing them of as representing seasons and directions and the shit about divination.

You know better than a few coins where you at.

Like for now read it kinda like....say hexagram 3 (I love it)...Difficulty at the beginning.
OK the heading says it all. THIS is what you do when you are starting out on something and its difficult. The book is straight forward like that.

Later the trigrams give you a bit more insight...but for me they are still largely confusing.

Some of them have mad imagery though. Hexagram 15 for example - Modesty. That's some mad imagery right there. Earth over Mountain. That's how modesty is ...like this big powerful fucker thats staying underground even know he's the shit.

What earth and mountain actually mean....later more meanings come.

TeknicelStylez
10-01-2005, 05:48 AM
I see so I shouldn't go off into the whole yin and yang sub categories and shit, just read the basic overview.

Btw I got the thomas cleary translation, lhx recommended it to me.

SubtleEnergies
10-01-2005, 06:10 AM
I have brian brown walker.

All my version is is the 64 hexagrams and their texts.

No other commentaries or anything.

Understanding yin/ yang won't hurt. But most people have a basic idea of it.

The 64 hexagrams ARE the actual I CHING though.

TeknicelStylez
10-01-2005, 06:32 AM
hold on I'll give you an example.

your favorite one

Difficulty
(you know the text)

Overall Judgement: (Confucious' Explanation on the text) In difficulty firmness and flexibility begin to interact, and problems arise. Acting right in the middle of dangerous straits, great success comes through for the honest and true. As thunder and rain fill the body nature creates confusion and darkness. It is useful to establish local leaders, but it is not peaceful.

Image
Clouds and thunder make difficulty; thus cultured people consider reasons.

1 yang. When you are hesitant and not getting anywhere it is advantageous to remain upright it is useful to set up local leaders.
Image Even though you are not getting anywhere, your intentions and actions are to be correct. By respecting the lowly, many people are won.

2 yin Stopped, not getting anywhere, mounted on a horse but at a standstill do not be hostile, but for a partnership, a girl is chaste; she does not get engaged. After ten years she becomes engaged.
Image what is difficult for the weak and pliable to do here is to ride upon the strong and adamant. Becoming engaged after ten years means returning to normalcy.

Than it goes on like that up to six and goes to The next hexagram.

3 yin (example)
Image (explanation)

4 yin (...)
image

5 yang (...)
image

6 yin (...)

It's mad confusing, I think I'm just going to read the text from the hexagrams and draw my own conclusions.

SubtleEnergies
10-01-2005, 06:46 AM
Mine is about the same except no confucian opinion.

The 6 lines are used in divination. When you throw the coins you add numbers and each line has a number. You read certain lines. For this reason I largely ignore the six lines. I do read them and take any advice may be relevant at times but you can see not all are meant to be read together.

To me the main text is the gold. The advice. My hunch is that the lines were added with the divination system. They sound often like littl fortune cookies to me.

But the text of difficulty at the beginning tells you what you need to know when you experience difficulty at the beginning.

this is my text :

If we perservere a great success is at hand

The literal translation of "chun" is "a blade of grass pushing against an obstacle as it sprouts out the eart." Receiving this hexagram is a sign that beyond the difficulties and pressures that surround you, a success lies waiting. In order to bring it fully into the light, you must be patient and perservere in non-action.
No matter how fervently one desires to resolves a situation, to intervene impatiently now will only hinder the progress of good fortune. Accept and bear with the discomfort of chaos without attempting to push it away. Allowing it to clear of its own accord, in its own time, is the only way of insuring a subsequent blossoming of success.
Hold to proper principles. In your actions, seek and respect the counsel of the Sage. Allow those whose hearts are true to assist you whereever possible; be tolerant of all others. In this way the blessing that now lies hidden will come into the open

Your text is most likely about the same. This is then followed by the 6 lines. To me this in itself is strait forward and complete and the lines add little to it.

It outlines your situation in the heading and the metaphor of the blade of grass. It tells you what lies ahead if you perservere. It warns you of the traps in this situaion and what to do to avod them. This is just straight forward advice.

If in a situation of difficulty at the beggining you applied this advice, it would work. No tricks to it, just doing it.

TeknicelStylez
10-01-2005, 06:51 AM
Wow your text is ALOT more descriptive than mine. All I got was.

Great sucess is beneficial for the honest. Do not deliberately hold to a specific goal. It is useful to establish local leaders.

WTF thats like 3 lines you got mad context on that... I'm about to get a refund and cop that book.

My book is always talking about local leaders and cultured people wtf is that about.

SubtleEnergies
10-01-2005, 07:04 AM
Yeah to be honest I distrut Confucius after hearing LHX's opinion on him. lol

Yeah mines just the I Ching by Brian Browne Walker.

I know LHX doesn't like recommending any particular text, but I like this one cause it seems like minimal bullshit and just straight up advice in an understandable form.

TeknicelStylez
10-01-2005, 07:14 AM
Yea he recommended this one to me, but after reading your text I feel robbed.

SubtleEnergies
10-01-2005, 07:20 AM
If you feel the text I have is more readable to you, go get a copy.

TeknicelStylez
10-01-2005, 07:29 AM
I aint rich mang, I just bought these books na mean. Yo me and my mom are on the verge of getting evicted, her car is already getting repo'd. As much as we love to buy books and we feel like we should always be able to spend money on em, things is tight right now homie.

SubtleEnergies
10-01-2005, 07:33 AM
I undersatnd.

LHX
10-01-2005, 08:35 AM
yo man

keep the cleary book

trust me


the confucian interpretations are gold

LHX
10-01-2005, 08:35 AM
actually

dont trust me



but still

keep the cleary translation

SubtleEnergies
10-01-2005, 08:36 AM
X what about my pm?

LHX
10-01-2005, 08:46 AM
I aint rich mang, I just bought these books na mean. Yo me and my mom are on the verge of getting evicted, her car is already getting repo'd. As much as we love to buy books and we feel like we should always be able to spend money on em, things is tight right now homie.
yo dont sweat it man

thats what libraries are for



have you studied any other systems before?

if you let me know something that you are familiar with
i may be able to help draw some parallels that you will find useful when studying the i ching



dont put it down

PEACE

TeknicelStylez
10-01-2005, 08:54 AM
I won't mang, I definately won't. What do you mean by systems, example?

I know I read I ching influenced books before.

But like this is supposed to represent me and it seems like all he's talking about is political leaders and cultured people, and like what to do if you were ruling a country.... I'm not ruling a country....

LHX
10-01-2005, 08:56 AM
like any other systems of belief

any holy books
the tarot
astrology
physics

anything

LHX
10-01-2005, 08:57 AM
But like this is supposed to represent me and it seems like all he's talking about is political leaders and cultured people, and like what to do if you were ruling a country.... I'm not ruling a country....
...you mean it seems like you are not ruling a country


do not sell short the power of metaphors

your body is a piece of land

TeknicelStylez
10-01-2005, 09:07 AM
Deep... lol I kinda figured that but it seemed hard to apply.

blackwisdom
10-01-2005, 06:58 PM
I baught this today. I'm not going to read it yet cause I have other subjects that I have to focus on right now, but I'll get to it soon.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0140193359.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0140193359/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-9443366-6285712#reader-link)

Take it easy

SubtleEnergies
10-02-2005, 04:33 AM
The first I ching comment from a female :)

urbanlegendmf
10-03-2005, 06:31 AM
first thing would prolly be to hit the library and grab a book on the i ching
- i threw down a few authors above

the main thing - at first - is to at least become familiar with it a bit


after that
you might want to take a look at
tao te ching
art of war
analects of confucius

and recognize that those books were taken DIRECTLY from studying the i ching




it took me a lot of work

it still take a lot of work


hit me up if you got any questions or need help finding resources

PEACE
YOU DONT KNO SHIT FROM THE I CHING ;)

LHX
10-03-2005, 07:56 AM
YOU DONT KNO SHIT FROM THE I CHING ;)
shit dont know me either

Triple B
10-03-2005, 03:07 PM
OK

I am going to go out here and risk sounding stupid at the expense of being honest.

I physically feel the center. When I am emotional my energy feels scattered. When I am centered I feel like I am holding my energy in my abdomen, specifically my chest.

Does anyone have any idea what I am talking about?
I'm experiencing the same thing.

SubtleEnergies
10-04-2005, 04:49 AM
Good :) Someone understands me.

Triple B
10-04-2005, 06:54 AM
Good :) Someone understands me.and idd, by letting things go my scattered feelings often disappear within a minute. I try to put problems into perspective, so they moslty don't seem as bad as they looked before so i can let go of them; I've come a long way before I could to that, but i'm very glad i can do it now.

LHX
10-06-2005, 08:48 AM
from a different thread:




do u use the i ching from online sites.. like there are sites that do the coin throwing for you and explain the i ching for you right there?
...

most of the online sites are gimmicks



this one is blatantly a gimmick

but it is interactive

so it is fun



http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/90167

Prince Rai
10-06-2005, 08:57 AM
http://www.solidsoftware.com.au/I_Ching/I_Ching.html

lol LHX this is not that bad!!

the silencer
08-11-2006, 11:33 PM
this thread is mad old..

but i copped the I Ching about a week ago and ive been doing the coin flip method but not really gettin it...i got the Brian Browne Walker version...theres no commentaries or anything just the hexagrams and the explanations or (whatever there called)..

then the other day i received the Tao Te Ching and i was readin it nonstop for a couple days and i got thru the whole thing already....i find it much more clear than the I Ching.

i think thats because
1-the version of the Tao Te Ching i have has an informative introduction and notes by some dude Jacob Needleman
2-i havnt found a good way to actually read the I Ching book....the coin flip thing aint really doin it for me and i started to read beginning to end but i wasnt understanding it really...



hopefully somebody else wants to build on this shit...if not then i guess just let this thread fade back again til someone else brings it up...

the silencer
08-11-2006, 11:35 PM
by the way..i havent fully gotten thru this thread yet....i just found it tonight and started readin thru and now im gonna kinda use it as a guide.

LHX
08-11-2006, 11:38 PM
holy smokes this is a blast from the past

did you find it in a museum somewhere?


if you got questions drop them here or PM me

Peace

LHX
08-11-2006, 11:46 PM
although i am no expert