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Visionz
07-03-2009, 05:54 AM
Why would Jesus let Peter be the Rock that he was to found his Earthly church on and then say this to him

Matthew 16:23-But he (Jesus) turned, and said unto Peter, "Get thee behind me Satan: thou art an offence unto me; for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

?


Just curious what people's take was on this.

zooruka
07-03-2009, 06:09 AM
because when peter told JESUS he shouldnt die on the cross his words where not coming from himself but from satan thats why JESUS said that to him...satan was influancing peters thought....

visions this is a perfect example why islam is a devil religion because if JESUS rebuked satan for making peter say he shouldnt die on the cross...then imagine what he would say about a religion that at its core denies that he ever died on the cross.

i think JESUS would respond get behind me satan.

Visionz
07-03-2009, 06:13 AM
because when peter told JESUS he shouldnt die on the cross his words where not coming from himself but from satan thats why JESUS said that to him...satan was influancing peters thought....

visions this is a perfect example why islam is a devil religion because if JESUS rebuked satan for making peter say he shouldnt die on the cross...then imagine what he would say about a religion that at its core denies that he ever died on the cross.

i think JESUS would respond get behind me satan.

What about graven images?

and are you saying that the devil possessed Jesus's top disciple?

zooruka
07-03-2009, 06:27 PM
What about graven images?

and are you saying that the devil possessed Jesus's top disciple?

we have not made graven images of GOD ...JESUS is the image of GOD that GOD himself has presented to mankind.



peter was not possessed his thoughts where being influanced by the evil one

Because of the closeness he felt to Christ, Peter could not humanly accept the fact that Christ would have to die. Satan seized on Peter’s emotional tendencies and influenced him to rebuke Christ as he did by saying he shouldnt die on the cross. Christ recognized Satan’s influence and rebuked him.

also

It is a possibility that Satan was there following Jesus around and when Peter made those statements, Jesus, who is eternal God, rebuked Satan who was present yet invisible. Keep in mind that Satan was present at the Last Supper when he indwelled Judas.



peace be with you!

LORD NOSE
07-03-2009, 06:31 PM
...JESUS is the image of GOD that GOD himself has presented to mankind.


exactly - i agree

diggy
07-03-2009, 09:06 PM
Why would Jesus let Peter be the Rock that he was to found his Earthly church on and then say this to him

Matthew 16:23-But he (Jesus) turned, and said unto Peter, "Get thee behind me Satan: thou art an offence unto me; for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

?


Just curious what people's take was on this.


Well, Jesus called him Satan, according to the bible.

A follower of Peter, is a follower of Satan.

zooruka
07-03-2009, 09:50 PM
Well, Jesus called him Satan, according to the bible.

A follower of Peter, is a follower of Satan.

:point: hahahahah i dont think so!


peace be with you !

diggy
07-03-2009, 10:00 PM
It does not matter of what YOU THINK!!!

It is a matter of what the bible says.

zooruka
07-03-2009, 10:05 PM
Jesus then says - "Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat"

why would satan make this request to sift peter as wheat (wich means test him and break him) if people who follow peter where following satan.

thats what the bible says !!!!!!!!!!!


peace be with you !

Visionz
07-08-2009, 12:22 AM
we have not made graven images of GOD ...JESUS is the image of GOD that GOD himself has presented to mankind.



peter was not possessed his thoughts where being influanced by the evil one

Because of the closeness he felt to Christ, Peter could not humanly accept the fact that Christ would have to die. Satan seized on Peter’s emotional tendencies and influenced him to rebuke Christ as he did by saying he shouldnt die on the cross. Christ recognized Satan’s influence and rebuked him.

also

It is a possibility that Satan was there following Jesus around and when Peter made those statements, Jesus, who is eternal God, rebuked Satan who was present yet invisible. Keep in mind that Satan was present at the Last Supper when he indwelled Judas.



peace be with you!


Exodus 20:4 Though shall not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth


http://www.melissacapers.com/thetrip/1_files/image001.jpg

zooruka
07-08-2009, 12:40 AM
Exodus 20:4 Though shall not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth




when mose made the ark of the covanant it was made to be an earthly replecar of what was in heaven.


see when GOD made that rule about graven images it was not to make somthing of human thought that humans conceived out of there own ideas...but if GOD where to give us an image like the ark of the covanant or JESUS CHRIST or what heaven is like in revelatiions then that is o.k for us.... see there is a differance GOD gave us these images we didnt make them up out of thin air so its o.k.


peace be with you !

Visionz
07-08-2009, 12:46 AM
when mose made the ark of the covanant it was made to be an earthly replecar of what was in heaven.


see when GOD made that rule about graven images it was not to make somthing of human thought that humans conceived out of there own ideas...but if GOD where to give us an image like the ark of the covanant or JESUS CHRIST or what heaven is like in revelatiions then that is o.k for us.... see there is a differance GOD gave us these images we didnt make them up out of thin air so its o.k.


peace be with you !
when did God give anyone the image of Jesus?? Words and images are two different things and laws are laws. There is no "except" written into the Ten Commandments. It says what it says and hardly anyone in the world obeys this law including yourself. That's a false image of Jesus in your sig as it is. Bronze and pink aren't anywhere near the same color.

Visionz
07-08-2009, 12:54 AM
not to mention the Catholic Church, very fond of all their imagery has REMOVED it from their list of Commandments altogether



Here are the Catholic Ten Commandments:

I am the LORD your God. You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve.
You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not kill.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife.
You shall not covet your neighbor's goods.

http://www.beginningcatholic.com/catholic-ten-commandments.html

http://10commandments.biz/biz/images/TenC.tencPotrait.jpg
notice something missing????

Visionz
07-09-2009, 08:00 PM
bump stickidee bump

Olive Oil Goombah
07-09-2009, 09:33 PM
NOI and Roman Catholicism get attacked alot here on wucorp.

Visionz
07-11-2009, 04:22 AM
^is pointing out an apparent contradiction the same thing as attacking?

zooruka
07-12-2009, 01:55 AM
not to mention the Catholic Church, very fond of all their imagery has REMOVED it from their list of Commandments altogether



Here are the Catholic Ten Commandments:

I am the LORD your God. You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve.
You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not kill.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife.
You shall not covet your neighbor's goods.

http://www.beginningcatholic.com/catholic-ten-commandments.html

http://10commandments.biz/biz/images/TenC.tencPotrait.jpg
notice something missing????

i cant answer you on that i dont know why the catholic church abolished that one ?????


peace be with you !

Visionz
07-12-2009, 04:18 AM
^It's God's commandments dude, the Catholic church didn't abolish anything, they only tried to keep you from what they didn't want you to hear.

zooruka
07-12-2009, 06:21 AM
^It's God's commandments dude, the Catholic church didn't abolish anything, they only tried to keep you from what they didn't want you to hear.

i asked apparently the church still has that commandment its been incorperated into the first commandment that is written... dont ask me more than that because thats all i was told.


peace be with you !

Visionz
07-12-2009, 07:03 AM
i asked apparently the church still has that commandment its been incorperated into the first commandment that is written... dont ask me more than that because thats all i was told.


peace be with you !
Can you not tell when someone is lying to your face? It's two completely different things and commands. Proof you owe it to yourself to think for yourself. At the very least, ask tougher questions when you're talking to whoever it is that you're seeking advice from.


In your own opinion, do you see "You shall have no other gods before me" and "do not make images of anything either in heaven or on earth" as having the same meaning?

zooruka
07-12-2009, 09:26 PM
Can you not tell when someone is lying to your face? It's two completely different things and commands. Proof you owe it to yourself to think for yourself. At the very least, ask tougher questions when you're talking to whoever it is that you're seeking advice from.


In your own opinion, do you see "You shall have no other gods before me" and "do not make images of anything either in heaven or on earth" as having the same meaning?

there are two official 10 commandments one from exodus and Deuteronomy 5:6–21 they both say idol.


Exodus 20:2–17


"You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."


Deuteronomy:


You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.



see what i think GOD is saying in the above verses is that you shall not make any image from heaven and earth that you will then bow down and worship...see statues and paintings of saints are permitted because they are not worshiped as GOD thats what GOD means when he says you shall make no idols ( because back then idols where considered GODs and worshipped as such) but paints of saints and statues of mary are not idols because nobody bows down and worships them( see you must read the context of the commands GOD says idols and like i said before idols are somthing that are bowed down to and worshiped).


Now as for the image of JESUS this was given to us by GOD its not somthing we saw and made into an idol or decided to make of our own accord (like when the israelites made the golden calf in the desert)... this was the iamge GOD himself decided to give to mankind of himself...so it does not violate the commandment because GOD gave it to us....we didnt make the idol on our own accord.



Now as for the 10 commandments in the catholic church and the seemingly excluded verse about idols i will show you that the catholic church has incorperated the first three commandments into 1 commandment and that is what i was saying to you before they still have it its just been incorperated into the first commandment) :

read this: (its the catholic churchs understanding of the first commandment.)


The first commandment, according to Church teaching, "means that [followers] must worship and adore God alone because God is alone."[32] The Catechism explains that this prohibits idolatry, providing examples of forbidden practices such as the worship of any creature, and of "'demons ... power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state [and] money'".


see how it has been incorperated !!!


read this also


While Catholics are often accused of worshiping images, in violation of the first commandment,[36] the Church says this is a misunderstanding. In the Church's opinion, "the honor paid to sacred images is a 'respectful veneration', not the adoration due to God alone".[36][37] In the early centuries of the Church, heated arguments arose over whether religious icons were prohibited by the first commandment. The dispute was almost entirely restricted to the Eastern church; the iconoclasts wished to prohibit icons, while the iconodules supported their veneration. At the Second Council of Nicaea in 787, the ecumenical council determined that the veneration of icons and statues was not in violation of the commandment and stated "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."[38][note 2] The Catechism posits that God gave permission for images that symbolize Christian salvation by leaving symbols such as the bronze serpent, and the cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant. It states that "by becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new economy of images".[36][37]

The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) explain the Catechism in their book entitled United States Catechism for Adults, published in 2006. Regarding graven images, they expound that this command addresses idolatry that in ancient times expressed itself in the worship of such things as the "sun, moon, stars, trees, bulls, eagles, and serpents" as well as "emperors and kings". They explain that today, idolatry expresses itself in the worship of other things, and list some as "power, money, materialism and sports



see it doesnt violate the commandment


anyway visions i hope that cleared it up for you !


peace be with you !

Face of the Golden Falcon
07-12-2009, 09:47 PM
...because back then idols where considered GODs and worshipped as such...

Are you trying to say people back then were stupid enough to think a statue was almighty God?

Proof?

:list:

SHEM HETEP

Face of the Golden Falcon
07-12-2009, 09:56 PM
Now as for the image of JESUS this was given to us by GOD its not somthing we saw and made into an idol or decided to make of our own accord (like when the israelites made the golden calf in the desert)... this was the iamge GOD himself decided to give to mankind of himself...so it does not violate the commandment because GOD gave it to us....we didnt make the idol on our own accord.


...but which image of Jesus was the one given by God? There are so many. Surely not all of them were given by God. If God wasn't happy with being worshiped as a golden calf then wouldn't he also be upset at an image of Jesus that looked nothing like him? And what about the name Jesus wouldn't he be upset that you use a name made up on your own accord instead of the name given him by God?

SHEM HETEP

zooruka
07-12-2009, 10:57 PM
Are you trying to say people back then were stupid enough to think a statue was almighty God?

Proof?

:list:

SHEM HETEP



idolatry in the Hebrew Bible is defined as either:

the worship of idols (or images)
the worship of polytheistic gods by use of idols (or images)
the worship of animals or people
the use of idols in the worship of God.


notice the first one "the worship of idols (or images)" distinguishes between the second form of idoltry wich is (the worship of polytheistic gods by use of idols (or images))..... the second one was the woship of false gods using idols .... the first one is direct worship of the idol itself .....so yes people did back then woship idols and thought they where GOD`s.

peace be with you !

Visionz
07-12-2009, 11:49 PM
Deuteronomy 5:8-Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth.


That's the commandment there and Exodus 20:4 says the same exact thing.

it does NOT say

"You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."


By saying it says "whether" changes the meaning of the command. But that isn't what the Word says. On top of not making idols it goes on to say "nor shall you make an image of anything that is in the heavens above or the earth below"

so no, I don't agree with what you are being told and I don't think this commandment is incorperated in the first command, furthermore, who is the church to say that God Himself was being redundant?


""Oh he covered it with that first one there so we don't need this one over here" essentially that is what they have done but who knows better, man or God?


and also you say you were given the image of Jesus by God, please quote me the verse where Jesus is described as the common perception of what Jesus's likeness is accepted as today.

namely White skin, straight brown hair. I'm curious where its at because I don't ever recall seeing it in there.

zooruka
07-13-2009, 01:45 AM
Deuteronomy 5:8-Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth.


That's the commandment there and Exodus 20:4 says the same exact thing.

it does NOT say

"You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.".

it depends on which translation you are using some say idol some say graven images it doesnt matter they mean the same thing.



so no, I don't agree with what you are being told and I don't think this commandment is incorperated in the first command, furthermore, who is the church to say that God Himself was being redundant? .

well thats what the church has done...the first catholic commandment says 'I am the LORD your God. You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve.' to catholics this first commandment is sufficient because the commandment alone is enough to stipulate that only GOD should be worshipped and served....so there is no need for graven images/idols commandment to be expressed seperatly it has already been established by the first commandment that only GOD should be worshiped....also like i said before graven images or idols commandment is reffering to somthing you bow down and worship as GOD (thats its meaning) otherwise GOD broke his own commandment when he gave moses the details of the ark of the covenant which has the two cheribum on it and is a model of what is in heaven.

also catholic dont do that (worship) pictures of saints and mary they venerate them (which means they show respect) but they by no means worship them as GOD so its not breaking the commandment.





and also you say you were given the image of Jesus by God, please quote me the verse where Jesus is described as the common perception of what Jesus's likeness is accepted as today.

namely White skin, straight brown hair. I'm curious where its at because I don't ever recall seeing it in there.

that is the one and only image of JESUS there isnt any other so its not like people are picking and choosing the image of JESUS they like or suits them and there culture best....that is the image of JESUS and i believe it is historically accurate and is ordained by GOD and JEWS do look like that they arnt black most of them are light skinned...so i dont believe there is anything historically or culturely wrong with that depiction of JESUS!...its just people are hell bent on claiming the white man is historically trying to white wash JESUS to so there own agenda.


peace be with you !

Visionz
07-13-2009, 01:58 AM
it depends on which translation you are using some say idol some say graven images it doesnt matter they mean the same thing.

"Whether"

my dispute is not with graven images or idol, whether and nor DO NOT mean the same thing. You said "Whether" my Bible says "Nor".





well thats what the church has done...the first catholic commandment says 'I am the LORD your God. You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve.' to catholics this first commandment is sufficient because the commandment alone is enough to stipulate that only GOD should be worshipped and served....so there is no need for graven images/idols commandment to be expressed seperatly it has already been established by the first commandment....also like i said before graven images or idols commandment is reffering to somthing you bow down and worship as GOD (thats its meaning) otherwise GOD broke his own commandment when he gave mose the details of the ark of the covenant which has the two cheribum on it and is a model of what is in heaven.

So says the Church, but GOD put them as two seperate things, so again I'll ask , who knows better, man or God?

also catholic dont do that (worship) pictures of saints and mary they venerate them (which means they show respect) but they by no means worship them as GOD so its not breaking the commandment.


they bow down to an image. why?







that is the one and only image of JESUS there isnt any other so its not like people are picking and choosing the image of JESUS they like or suits them and there culture best....that is the image of JESUS and i believe it is historically accurate and is ordained by GOD and JEWS do look like that they arnt black most of them are light skinned...so i dont believe there is anything historically or culturely wrong with that depiction of JESUS!...its just people are hell bent on claiming the white man is historically trying to white wash JESUS to so there own agenda.


peace be with you !

on this last paragraph you've written, where is the scripture to back it up? That is what I'm asking for. You say its the one and only image and that it was given to you by God, I'm asking for you to show me where exactly it was handed out. White skin, straight hair. I don't think its anywhere in the Bible. That is my contention.

zooruka
07-13-2009, 02:09 AM
on this last paragraph you've written, where is the scripture to back it up? That is what I'm asking for. You say its the one and only image and that it was given to you by God, I'm asking for you to show me where exactly it was handed out. White skin, straight hair. I don't think its anywhere in the Bible. That is my contention.

i cant show you a scripture verse that shows what jESUS looked like on earth there is one in revelations about what he looks like in his heavenly glory...also JESUS after his resurection took on many different forms because on three seperate occasions people didnt recognise him from his apperance only after he spoke they realised it was the LORD.


I believe it was passed down orally from the disciples until it was finally depicted in some form or another (whether it was in the form of a painting or what not) i dont know ????....when that first happend i also dont know but there must be some historical accurace to it.


peace be with you !

Visionz
07-13-2009, 02:17 AM
i cant show you a scripture verse that shows what jESUS looked like on earth there is one in revelations about what he looks like in his heavenly glory...also JESUS after his resurection took on many different forms because on three seperate occasions people didnt recognise him from his apperance only after he spoke they realised it was the LORD.


I believe it was passed down orally from the disciples until it was finally depicted in some form or another (whether it was in the form of a painting or what not) i dont know ????....when that first happend i also dont know but there must be some historical accurace to it.


peace be with you !
or so you ASSUME. the only words in the Bible speak of bronze skin and hair like a lamb's wool (curly). That image you have in your sig depicts neither. Don't say God gave it to you if He wasn't the one holding it out.

zooruka
07-13-2009, 02:20 AM
or so you ASSUME. the only words in the Bible speak of bronze skin and hair like a lamb's wool (curly).


i think lambs wool means white hair ...just my opion though


peace be with you !

Visionz
07-13-2009, 02:37 AM
i think lambs wool means white hair ...just my opion though


peace be with you !
that picture in your sig---neither white har, nor curly, nor bronze skin

meaing everything the Bible told you about the image of Jesus, through interpretation or direct translation, isn't reflected in that image.

Face of the Golden Falcon
07-13-2009, 04:52 AM
idolatry in the Hebrew Bible is defined as either:

the worship of idols (or images)
the worship of polytheistic gods by use of idols (or images)
the worship of animals or people
the use of idols in the worship of God.


notice the first one "the worship of idols (or images)" distinguishes between the second form of idoltry wich is (the worship of polytheistic gods by use of idols (or images))..... the second one was the woship of false gods using idols .... the first one is direct worship of the idol itself .....so yes people did back then woship idols and thought they where GOD`s.

peace be with you !

So because the hebrews thought people worshiped images as actual gods that is proof that it actually happened??? To quote Wesley Snipes from Passenger 57 - "I know muthf**kas that say they seen Elvis. You gonna believe that shit to?!"

I asked for proof. Break down other religions/cultures of the time and prove they worshiped images as actual gods.

SHEM HETEP

zooruka
07-13-2009, 05:13 AM
So because the hebrews thought people worshiped images as actual gods that is proof that it actually happened??? To quote Wesley Snipes from Passenger 57 - "I know muthf**kas that say they seen Elvis. You gonna believe that shit to?!"

I asked for proof. Break down other religions/cultures of the time and prove they worshiped images as actual gods.

SHEM HETEP

Book of Daniel, Chapter 14,[3] illustrates the Hebrew understanding of idoltry. In Daniel 14, Cyrus, king of the Persians, worships two deities, a deity named Bel and a dragon. Daniel 14 characterizes the king and some of the Babylonians as believing, literally, that Bel and the dragon are living gods:

Now the Babylons had an idol, called Bel, and there were spent upon him every day twelve great measures of fine flour, and forty sheep, and six vessels of wine.[4] And the king worshipped it and went daily to adore it: but Daniel worshipped his own God. And the king said unto him, Why dost not thou worship Bel?[5] Who answered and said, Because I may not worship idols made with hands, but the living God, who hath created the heaven and the earth, and hath sovereignty over all flesh.


this is your proof that an actual idol was worshipped.


it says that the king worshipped it and went daily to adore it.

peace be with you !

zooruka
07-14-2009, 08:54 PM
my dispute is not with graven images or idol, whether and nor DO NOT mean the same thing. You said "Whether" my Bible says "Nor".

i dont see how saying whether changes the command its saying you shall make no idol "whether" that idol be from an image of heaven or on earth.... whether is a conjuction.... used to introduce the first of two or more alternatives.... so it doesnt change the commandment....its just laying down the law you shall not make any idols whether it is an image of heaven or earth.


So says the Church, but GOD put them as two seperate things, so again I'll ask , who knows better, man or God?



the first catholic commandment says 'I am the LORD your God. You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve.' to catholics this first commandment is sufficient because the commandment alone is enough to stipulate that only GOD should be worshipped and served ....so there is no need for graven images/idols commandment to be expressed seperatly it has already been established by the first commandment that only GOD should be served and woshipped....also like i said before graven images or idols commandment is reffering to somthing you bow down and worship as GOD (thats its meaning) otherwise GOD broke his own commandment when he gave moses the details of the ark of the covenant which has the two cheribum on it and is a model of what is in heaven. So with that being said i think that 'I am the LORD your God. You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve". which is the first commandment of the catholic church is sufficient to cover the other commandment because like i said it states that only GOD should be served and worshipped there for automatically covering the commandment about the making of idols and images which one might be tempted to make and then to bow down and worship as god... but if they would have read the first commandment they would know not to do that because it says thet only GOD should be worshipped.... see how the first commandment covers the other one !!!


i think this ^^^ sums up everything on your question !



they bow down to an image. why?



if you are talking about the image of JESUS then yes that is o.k because that is the image that GOD has given us we didnt make that image of our own accord.... if you are talking about saints or mary then no you are wrong because nobody bows down and worships them they only venetrate them which means to show respect.



peace be with you !

Face of the Golden Falcon
07-14-2009, 11:07 PM
Book of Daniel, Chapter 14,[3] illustrates the Hebrew understanding of idoltry. In Daniel 14, Cyrus, king of the Persians, worships two deities, a deity named Bel and a dragon. Daniel 14 characterizes the king and some of the Babylonians as believing, literally, that Bel and the dragon are living gods:

Now the Babylons had an idol, called Bel, and there were spent upon him every day twelve great measures of fine flour, and forty sheep, and six vessels of wine.[4] And the king worshipped it and went daily to adore it: but Daniel worshipped his own God. And the king said unto him, Why dost not thou worship Bel?[5] Who answered and said, Because I may not worship idols made with hands, but the living God, who hath created the heaven and the earth, and hath sovereignty over all flesh.


this is your proof that an actual idol was worshipped.


it says that the king worshipped it and went daily to adore it.

peace be with you !

:frusty:

You can also "prove" that the moon produces it's own light using the bible. This doesn't make it true though. All it would show is that the people who wrote the book misunderstood the way the moon reflects the suns light. In the same way all you have shown is that the people who wrote the bible misunderstood the other cultures/religions around them, the same way you do.

SHEM HETEP

Visionz
07-15-2009, 12:26 AM
i dont see how saying whether changes the command its saying you shall make no idol "whether" that idol be from an image of heaven or on earth.... whether is a conjuction.... used to introduce the first of two or more alternatives.... so it doesnt change the commandment....its just laying down the law you shall not make any idols whether it is an image of heaven or earth.
nope, whether is to say these are examples of what was just said, nor is to say "in addition to" worshipping idols you also shall not create images of things in heaven or on earth. two different things.

the first catholic commandment says 'I am the LORD your God. You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve.' to catholics this first commandment is sufficientBut the fact is that God issued two seperate commands. You'd think that if you can create planets you'd certainly be able to realize when you we're being redundant. yes?

I think this gives credence to the fact that there is a difference between whether and nor. And also, my Bible, the King James version does not say whether it say "nor". I personally think the Catholic practice is misleading and as such you have been mislead.


if you are talking about saints or mary then no you are wrong because nobody bows down and worships them they only venetrate them which means to show respect.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/catholic_idolaters.jpg

nice little upside cross by the way
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/popecross.jpg

zooruka
07-15-2009, 12:34 AM
:frusty:

You can also "prove" that the moon produces it's own light using the bible. This doesn't make it true though. All it would show is that the people who wrote the book misunderstood the way the moon reflects the suns light. In the same way all you have shown is that the people who wrote the bible misunderstood the other cultures/religions around them, the same way you do.

SHEM HETEP

that bible verse in genisis about the moon doesnt say that the moon generates it`s own light all it says is that it is a lesser light !!!! what you said proves nothing because the moon even if it is reflecting the sun is still a lesser light so the bible is correct...now it wouldnt be correct if it says the moon as a lesser light generates its own light which is not true...but it doesnt say that..... all it says is it is a lesser light and thats what the moon is regardless if it reflects its light from the sun.


here is somthing from the bible from job that indicates the moon doesnt have its own light source.

Job 31:26 states it a bit more directly:

“If I beheld the
sun when it shined, or the moon walking in brightness.”

“Walking in brightness” communicates the idea that the moon is walking in the light of another source, an example of this would be like the sun shining on a person who is taking a walk during summer.... the person has no light of his or her own but they are still walking in brightness...same principle is applied in job to the moon.



peace be with you !

Visionz
07-15-2009, 01:01 AM
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/venerate

first word under synonyms:

idolize

zooruka
07-15-2009, 01:03 AM
nope, whether is to say these are examples of what was just said, nor is to say "in addition to" worshipping idols you also shall not create images of things in heaven or on earth. two different things.

look at the kjv it doesnt even say nor whether (lol) it is in exodus or dueteronomy


Exodus 20:4
"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."


Deuteronomy 5:8
Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth

But the fact is that God issued two seperate commands. You'd think that if you can create planets you'd certainly be able to realize when you we're being redundant. yes?


the church is using its common sense by incorperating the two commandments into one because they saw that the first commandment covers the other commandment about graven images/idols.


http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/catholic_idolaters.jpg

this picture proves nothing those people are praying to mary for intercetion not worshiping her as GOD.

nice little upside cross by the way
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/popecross.jpg

the upside down cross is just a symbol of st peter because thats how he was crucified...people are not worshiping it as GOD.



peace be with you !

Visionz
07-15-2009, 01:16 AM
this picture proves nothing those people are praying to mary for intercetion not worshiping her as GOD.
there you go, you've said it yourself. What good is praying to Mary? That's idolizing her and putting her on God's level.


Exodus 20:4
"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."
you're right but the meaning extracted from that is the same as it saying "nor" vs, "whether". People shouldn't be making images of anything in Heaven or next thing you know you'll have a bunch of people praying to an IMAGE of Mary as if she had the power to grant those prayers.

the church is using its common sense by incorperating the two commandments into one because they saw that the first commandment covers the other commandment about graven images/idols.
saying the Church is using its common sense is another way of saying God was being redundant. And if that first commandment took care of it all, why are people PRAYING to the Virgin Mary?

Visionz
07-15-2009, 01:30 AM
pray  [prey] Show IPA
–verb (used with object)
1. to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship).
2. to offer (a prayer).
3. to bring, put, etc., by praying: to pray a soul into heaven.
4. to make earnest petition to (a person).
5. to make petition or entreaty for; crave: She prayed his forgiveness.
6. to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to God or to an object of worship.
7. to enter into spiritual communion with God or an object of worship through prayer.

zooruka
07-15-2009, 01:50 AM
ill let you in on a little somthing visions .......I dont believe in praying to saints or to mary either.

peace be with you !

Visionz
07-15-2009, 01:56 AM
ill let you in on a little somthing visions .......I dont believe in praying to saints or to mary either.

peace be with you !
but having those statues around everywhere doesn't help. Believe me when I say God didn't want man making images of anything. What's seen with the eyes is great for deceiving yet the Catholic Church will give you the answers that they have. That is a deception in itself.

Face of the Golden Falcon
07-15-2009, 02:26 AM
that bible verse in genisis about the moon doesnt say that the moon generates it`s own light all it says is that it is a lesser light !!!! What you said proves nothing because the moon even if it is reflecting the sun is still a lesser light so the bible is correct...now it wouldnt be correct if it says the moon as a lesser light generates its own light which is not true...but it doesnt say that..... All it says is it is a lesser light and thats what the moon is regardless if it reflects its light from the sun.


Here is somthing from the bible from job that indicates the moon doesnt have its own light source.

Job 31:26 states it a bit more directly:

“if i beheld the
sun when it shined, or the moon walking in brightness.”

“walking in brightness” communicates the idea that the moon is walking in the light of another source, an example of this would be like the sun shining on a person who is taking a walk during summer.... The person has no light of his or her own but they are still walking in brightness...same principle is applied in job to the moon.



Peace be with you !

isaiah 30 : 26

isaiah 13 : 10

zooruka
07-15-2009, 02:57 AM
isaiah 30 : 26

isaiah 13 : 10



Isaiah 30:26

Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

that still doesnt prove anything all its says is that the light of the moon will be as bright as the light of the sun.... the moon still rardiates light regardless if it is reflected from the sun.... the verse still does not indicated that the moon has its own light.


isaiah 13 : 10

For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.


this still doesnt prove anything her light to shine means the moon will not shine it still doesnt state that the moon has a light of its own.


peace be with you !

Face of the Golden Falcon
07-15-2009, 04:41 AM
Isaiah 30:26

Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

that still doesnt prove anything all its says is that the light of the moon will be as bright as the light of the sun.... the moon still rardiates light regardless if it is reflected from the sun.... the verse still does not indicated that the moon has its own light.

...it doesn't say "as bright as the sun". Don't add to the scriptures. And if they did mean it this way they are wrong anyway. The moon is not as bright as the sun!

isaiah 13 : 10

For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.


this still doesnt prove anything her light to shine means the moon will not shine it still doesnt state that the moon has a light of its own.


I'm not trying to prove anything. What is written is written. Your bible speaks for it self. Please read that verse again. ..."and the moon shall not cause her light to shine".

If this is not stating that the moon has it's own light then I don't what is. ...her light to shine. It is not her light, she is reflecting his light. The Sun's light.

SHEM HETEP