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View Full Version : Athiesm is not therapy, but restored mental health.


DrBold241
08-03-2009, 10:35 AM
"My atheism leaps to life when private belief becomes a public matter, when in the name of a personal mental pathology we organize a world for others. For between personal existensial anguish and management of the body and soul of our fellow human beings, there exists a whole world in which those who profit from human anguish lurk in concealment. Redirecting their own death fixation toward the world at large neither saves sufferers nor alleviates their suffering- but it contaminates the universe. The attempt to avoid negativity merely spreads negativity around like manure- ushering in a whole sale mental pandemic.
In the name Yahweh, God, Jesus, and Allah- those conveniant excuses- Moses, Paul of Tarsus, Constantine, and Muhammad exploit the dark forces that penetrate them, that work so powerfully within them. By projecting their somber visions on the world they blacken it still further- and with impunity. The Patholological Grip of the death fixation does not heal itself through chaotic and magical muckspreading but by philosophical work upon oneself. Well-conducted introspection dispels the dreams and delirium on which gods feed."
~ Michael Onfray


i recently picked up the copy of the Atheist Manifesto and i find myself enjoying it as much as i enjoy reading the work of Nietzsche or Kant.
fresh into it, but has anyone else picked up a copy and has an opinion on it?
or on atheism itself?

Art Vandelay
08-03-2009, 10:48 AM
Amen (haha)

DrBold241
08-03-2009, 11:47 AM
seriously though, the author stays on point. i highly reccomend the read for anyone with doubt & logic.

YungSunny
08-03-2009, 12:22 PM
No.

Art Vandelay
08-03-2009, 12:44 PM


i like how believers try to force their books on nonbelievers, but then are too afraid to even read something that might suggest that they're beliefs are wrong.

DrBold241
08-03-2009, 04:56 PM
exactly.
but then again he's also 15. so.... lack of credibility as is.
but i lost faith not long before i turned 16.......

Uncle Steezo
08-03-2009, 04:59 PM
that quote had nothimg to say about the existence of god.

DrBold241
08-03-2009, 05:06 PM
not about the existence, but about the belief.
organized religion is full of shit and is evidence that it didn't take long for mankind to learn that he can fool others inferior to him by lying.

DrBold241
08-03-2009, 05:53 PM
george carlin bump
MeSSwKffj9o

Visionz
08-03-2009, 09:01 PM
I'm not an atheist but feel free to believe or not believe in what you will. I do think there's a certain amount of short-sightedness to the concept of God not existing, as if the world could only be defined by our own limited collective knowledge. Problems within religion are really problems with people and would still be there even if God wasn't, in concept or otherwise.

diggy
08-03-2009, 09:28 PM
Amen (haha)

Do you really know what you wrote?

Urban_Journalz
08-04-2009, 11:14 AM
"My atheism leaps to life when private belief becomes a public matter, when in the name of a personal mental pathology we organize a world for others. For between personal existensial anguish and management of the body and soul of our fellow human beings, there exists a whole world in which those who profit from human anguish lurk in concealment. Redirecting their own death fixation toward the world at large neither saves sufferers nor alleviates their suffering- but it contaminates the universe. The attempt to avoid negativity merely spreads negativity around like manure- ushering in a whole sale mental pandemic.
In the name Yahweh, God, Jesus, and Allah- those conveniant excuses- Moses, Paul of Tarsus, Constantine, and Muhammad exploit the dark forces that penetrate them, that work so powerfully within them. By projecting their somber visions on the world they blacken it still further- and with impunity. The Patholological Grip of the death fixation does not heal itself through chaotic and magical muckspreading but by philosophical work upon oneself. Well-conducted introspection dispels the dreams and delirium on which gods feed."
~ Michael Onfray


i recently picked up the copy of the Atheist Manifesto and i find myself enjoying it as much as i enjoy reading the work of Nietzsche or Kant.
fresh into it, but has anyone else picked up a copy and has an opinion on it?
or on atheism itself?

First of all, all that quote symbolises, is the opinion of someone who has never walked the path of enlightenment and has more than likely judged all religion based upon the actions of those who use it for control, which is a small minority compared to those who DO try to live righteously. Also, to say that the Prophets, wise men and teachers were trying to impress something upon those that they came across, proves that he has no clue what he's talking about and probably hasn't read all, if any of the major texts. They were messengers. Period. What the people did with the message was up to them. Messengers are not babysitters or dictators. His argument, for all of it's bells, whistles and seemingly, "deep" insight, is just as weak as any other atheist's arguement that I've seen thusfar.

If you want to use science as a crutch for this belief, then it would behoove you to study quantum theory, because this scientific field of study is confirming everything that practically every ancient text, religious or not, has always said about A Grand Creator, A Master Plan and a deep and undeniable connection between everyone and everything. It's ironic because the dude's name literally means, "Like unto God". Just studying the etymology of his own name would help him, but oh well. His loss.

Do you really know what you wrote? :lmao: Nice one.

Robert
08-04-2009, 12:43 PM
First of all, all that quote symbolises, is the opinion of someone who has never walked the path of enlightenment and has more than likely judged all religion based upon the actions of those who use it for control, which is a small minority compared to those who DO try to live righteously.

Is it really a small minority? I think that is highly debatable.

Also, to say that the Prophets, wise men and teachers were trying to impress something upon those that they came across, proves that he has no clue what he's talking about and probably hasn't read all, if any of the major texts. They were messengers. Period. What the people did with the message was up to them.

I think that is a reasonable point. The problem, it seems, is that a a large number of people use this "message" in the wrong way.

Messengers are not babysitters or dictators. His argument, for all of it's bells, whistles and seemingly, "deep" insight, is just as weak as any other atheist's arguement that I've seen thusfar.

Oh really?

If you want to use science as a crutch for this belief, then it would behoove you to study quantum theory, because this scientific field of study is confirming everything that practically every ancient text, religious or not, has always said about A Grand Creator, A Master Plan and a deep and undeniable connection between everyone and everything.

Perhaps you could provide some articles on the subject because I would be interested to see (I'm sure others would)


Cheers.

Robert
08-04-2009, 12:50 PM
I think Urban Journalz does allude to something important, that a lot of atheists do not seem to have a deep understanding of the religion they are criticial of.

The thing is, the concepts of "religion" and "spirituality" are so terribly abstract. Both concepts can mean a whole number of things. The subjectivity of these concepts (and also the concept of "god") makes this whole debate even more complicated.

By the same token, I would say there are many theists who don't understand the science they argue against (this is clear from the vast number of uninformed "creationist" videos on youtube).

Art Vandelay
08-04-2009, 02:30 PM
Do you really know what you wrote?


yes. hence the "haha" within parenthesis

DrBold241
08-05-2009, 09:11 AM
First of all, all that quote symbolises, is the opinion of someone who has never walked the path of enlightenment and has more than likely judged all religion based upon the actions of those who use it for control, which is a small minority compared to those who DO try to live righteously.

His argument, for all of it's bells, whistles and seemingly, "deep" insight, is just as weak as any other atheist's arguement that I've seen thusfar.



Actually the author has visited the "holy" land and spoke to numerous religious followers in doing so; and he's agnostic (an atheist with no balls).
As for the majority not using it for control, i strongly disagree. Even if they're not the ones doing the controlling, they are being controlled. There are numerous counts of faith getting in the way of logic. Such as a mother killing her children and saying "God told me to do so."
Or how about those who believe some bible stories to be literal/true, such as Jonah & The Whale (or "big fish") as well as Adam & Eve.
Those of us with common sense know neither of which are possible.
First off a man can't survive in a big fish's stomach, he'd be chewed up first (if we're talking a predator of a big fish) and if he was swallowed whole his bones would probably be crushed, skin melted off through stomach acid and such, and his body would become fish excrement.
As for A&E, if we all came from that much inbreeding there wouldn't be nearly as many races/ethnicities and there'd be far more mental disorders.

I myself was raised catholic, and i think the christian faith is nothing short of ridiculous. If we're only speaking of Christ and not the religion that followed, I believe he was an ideal human being. Not the mesiah, but someone we should aspire to be like (peaceful, forgiving, happy). Unfortunately there are COUNTLESS christians who are also prejudice. Whether that be towards those who follow other religions, don't believe in god, or sometimes just straight up racist. Going from the positive image of Christ, only the minority of Christians are actually Christ-like.

More people have been killed in the name of God/Religion than anything else.

I have nothing against those who are spiritual, however religious fundamentalism will doom our society to the apocalypse/"judgement day" that so many of these religious folks are contempt with. If one is so contempt with the end of humanity they are only enabling it to occur. Many of these people have political power as well, meaning that judgement day they speak of, they can help start. Nuclear fallout is actually a possibility with these people. That is something I just won't stand for.

Uncle Steezo
08-05-2009, 12:32 PM
what i see is a group of people disillusioned with religion.(rightfully so)
atheism is a disbelief in a creator/higherpower/god.

its like not believing in plaque because you had a horrible dentist. (no lacey)

beautifulrock
08-05-2009, 03:04 PM
atheism is a disbelief in a creator/higherpower/god.
[/COLOR]

I think this is wrong, and i can say so because I am an atheist. Atheism can be a broad spectrum of things, from simply not believing that deities exist, to certain sects of Buddism that don't believe in Gods but are still religious, to an outright rejection of classical theological teaching due to lack of empirical evidence, but still believing in a higher power. In early AD, Romans accused the Christians of being atheists for not believing in Pagan deities. It's such a broad term, that trying to isolate it by giving it a convenient definition is nearly impossible, for just as there are many types of theists, so there are many different types of atheists. Not everybody who is an atheist is Bill Mauer.

Uncle Steezo
08-05-2009, 03:36 PM
atheism can be either the rejection of theism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/theism), or the position that deities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/god) do not exist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/existence_of_god). In the broadest sense, it is the absence of belief in the existence of deities


???

Uncle Steezo
08-05-2009, 03:38 PM
are there atheists that reject religion but accept the existence of God?

beautifulrock
08-05-2009, 03:58 PM
are there atheists that reject religion but accept the existence of God?Yes, it's just a difference of logical perspective...where some atheists say they don't believe in a deity because it can't be proven, some say they do believe in a higher power because it can't be dis proven, but at the same time reject all versions of organized religion because their views are unprovable.

DrBold241
08-05-2009, 04:26 PM
isn't there another name for that though? people who believe in a god/higher power that doesn't interfere with human life? is it deist?
i forget how to spell it.

Rollo
08-05-2009, 04:49 PM
"My atheism leaps to life when private belief becomes a public matter, when in the name of a personal mental pathology we organize a world for others. For between personal existensial anguish and management of the body and soul of our fellow human beings, there exists a whole world in which those who profit from human anguish lurk in concealment. Redirecting their own death fixation toward the world at large neither saves sufferers nor alleviates their suffering- but it contaminates the universe. The attempt to avoid negativity merely spreads negativity around like manure- ushering in a whole sale mental pandemic.
In the name Yahweh, God, Jesus, and Allah- those conveniant excuses- Moses, Paul of Tarsus, Constantine, and Muhammad exploit the dark forces that penetrate them, that work so powerfully within them. By projecting their somber visions on the world they blacken it still further- and with impunity. The Patholological Grip of the death fixation does not heal itself through chaotic and magical muckspreading but by philosophical work upon oneself. Well-conducted introspection dispels the dreams and delirium on which gods feed."
~ Michael Onfray


And the problem in that way of thinking is so painfully obvious, it almost makes me wonder if the author himself has ever had a thought run through his head contrary to his world view.

As though death fixation alone can account or disprove a God or deity.
I have a water fixation from my thirst, perhaps I'm projecting that also? pshh
I have an oxygen fixation as well, maybe I'm making it up too!
I don't really have to pee, I just want to so bad it seems real *wets self*

If you're debating the material existence of something, you must compare it to other material things that exist. Obiously the want for a God plays no part in it's factuality, and to even entertain the thought it does is just retarded.

What is is, what isn't isn't, and rattling off with rationalistic pseudo intellectual pot shots at a group of people for believing something you find unpleasant is just a waste.

It never ceases to amaze me how pompous and irrelevant atheistic reasoning can be.

"Oh we can't have anything intelligible or conscious in nature, it just makes life so much more painful, so it can't be."
As though someone assured them to begin with, life was going to be fucking peachy.

Sorry, but that way of reasoning "There is suffering therefor there is no God just got tired with me a long time ago.
That is not a demonstration of anything other than an incredibly cynical cry baby complex we developed from our own ego.

Ghost In The 'Lac
08-05-2009, 04:58 PM
lmao @ thread title

Urban_Journalz
08-05-2009, 05:35 PM
Actually the author has visited the "holy" land and spoke to numerous religious followers in doing so; and he's agnostic (an atheist with no balls).
As for the majority not using it for control, i strongly disagree. Even if they're not the ones doing the controlling, they are being controlled. There are numerous counts of faith getting in the way of logic. Such as a mother killing her children and saying "God told me to do so."
Or how about those who believe some bible stories to be literal/true, such as Jonah & The Whale (or "big fish") as well as Adam & Eve.
Those of us with common sense know neither of which are possible.
First off a man can't survive in a big fish's stomach, he'd be chewed up first (if we're talking a predator of a big fish) and if he was swallowed whole his bones would probably be crushed, skin melted off through stomach acid and such, and his body would become fish excrement.
As for A&E, if we all came from that much inbreeding there wouldn't be nearly as many races/ethnicities and there'd be far more mental disorders.

I myself was raised catholic, and i think the christian faith is nothing short of ridiculous. If we're only speaking of Christ and not the religion that followed, I believe he was an ideal human being. Not the mesiah, but someone we should aspire to be like (peaceful, forgiving, happy). Unfortunately there are COUNTLESS christians who are also prejudice. Whether that be towards those who follow other religions, don't believe in god, or sometimes just straight up racist. Going from the positive image of Christ, only the minority of Christians are actually Christ-like.

More people have been killed in the name of God/Religion than anything else.

I have nothing against those who are spiritual, however religious fundamentalism will doom our society to the apocalypse/"judgement day" that so many of these religious folks are contempt with. If one is so contempt with the end of humanity they are only enabling it to occur. Many of these people have political power as well, meaning that judgement day they speak of, they can help start. Nuclear fallout is actually a possibility with these people. That is something I just won't stand for.

The ones being controlled are the ones who listen to what's being given to them from a podium, without having gone into the books themselves to get the entire story. The example of the woman is terrible though, because anyone who would say that is clearly not listening to the same God that created the Heavens and the Earth, more like she's worshipping the god that is reffered to on the faces of the U.S. currency. I.E. The Devil.

Nothing is, "impossible". To say that anything is not possible, is to say that there is something that God cannot do. Since you're coming from a different point of view than I am, I don't expect you to believe it, just look at another perspective. Jonah, peace be upon him, was a Prophet, that alone separates him from other men. The whale didn't eat him because he wasn't supposed to. You can't base what has already happened on what you think is supposed to happen based on conventional thought.

Faith in things such as this surpasses logic, since logic is based on the material world. Things that can be measured and seen. This realm is important, but it isn't the ultimate form of perception and it's an insult to the greater part of creation, even the mysteries of your very mind, to say that because something isn't, "logical", it isn't possible or happening.

The story of Adam and Eve can be debated upon all day and I won't bother getting into it. All I will say is this; there is more going on than you and I both know. It's not our place to question it and it's certainly not our place to presume to know more than those that came before us. It's dangerous.

Your beliefs in and about Christ, peace be upon him, are entirely up to you.

True, more people have been killed in the name of God than most anything else. However, you and I both know that there are some people in the world that need to be killed. If I were to start a thread entitled, "people that need/needed to die", I'm sure it would exceed 4 pages, provided people actually decided to be serious about it and not put down something redundant like Kathy Lee Gifford or something. The dictators, false prophets, drug dealers, child molestors, rapists, etc. all deserve to go. The problem is that no one, for the most part, has the spine these days to exercise true justice. The quote that reads, "All that is required for evil to conquer, is for good men to do nothing." Don't get it twisted and think that killing is wrong. The Commandment that reads, "Thou shall not kill" is speaking upon killing those who are just trying to live thier own lives. If I'm Muslim and you're Catholic, we have no business trying to kill eachother, so long as we respect each other's beliefs and keep it moving. Like now, it's a peaceful debate and nothing more. Seriously though, for the sake of arguement, if you were to lullaby a child-molestor, the way the dictionary defines justice, do you think that would really be a bad mark on your record? Or, would you consider it to be a public service?

I believe that Judgement Day is a full-blown conclusion, the only question is, where will we be when it happens?

DrBold241
08-05-2009, 09:44 PM
The ones being controlled are the ones who listen to what's being given to them from a podium, without having gone into the books themselves to get the entire story. The example of the woman is terrible though, because anyone who would say that is clearly not listening to the same God that created the Heavens and the Earth, more like she's worshipping the god that is reffered to on the faces of the U.S. currency. I.E. The Devil.

Nothing is, "impossible". To say that anything is not possible, is to say that there is something that God cannot do. Since you're coming from a different point of view than I am, I don't expect you to believe it, just look at another perspective. Jonah, peace be upon him, was a Prophet, that alone separates him from other men. The whale didn't eat him because he wasn't supposed to. You can't base what has already happened on what you think is supposed to happen based on conventional thought.

Faith in things such as this surpasses logic, since logic is based on the material world. Things that can be measured and seen. This realm is important, but it isn't the ultimate form of perception and it's an insult to the greater part of creation, even the mysteries of your very mind, to say that because something isn't, "logical", it isn't possible or happening.

The story of Adam and Eve can be debated upon all day and I won't bother getting into it. All I will say is this; there is more going on than you and I both know. It's not our place to question it and it's certainly not our place to presume to know more than those that came before us. It's dangerous.

Your beliefs in and about Christ, peace be upon him, are entirely up to you.

True, more people have been killed in the name of God than most anything else. However, you and I both know that there are some people in the world that need to be killed. If I were to start a thread entitled, "people that need/needed to die", I'm sure it would exceed 4 pages, provided people actually decided to be serious about it and not put down something redundant like Kathy Lee Gifford or something. The dictators, false prophets, drug dealers, child molestors, rapists, etc. all deserve to go. The problem is that no one, for the most part, has the spine these days to exercise true justice. The quote that reads, "All that is required for evil to conquer, is for good men to do nothing." Don't get it twisted and think that killing is wrong. The Commandment that reads, "Thou shall not kill" is speaking upon killing those who are just trying to live thier own lives. If I'm Muslim and you're Catholic, we have no business trying to kill eachother, so long as we respect each other's beliefs and keep it moving. Like now, it's a peaceful debate and nothing more. Seriously though, for the sake of arguement, if you were to lullaby a child-molestor, the way the dictionary defines justice, do you think that would really be a bad mark on your record? Or, would you consider it to be a public service?

I believe that Judgement Day is a full-blown conclusion, the only question is, where will we be when it happens?

i literally disagree with every fundamentalist piece of bullshit you just pulled out of your ass.
although to be honest, i'm about to head out to a party, so hopefully someone else will give you a rebuttal first, if not expect one from me tomorrow.
you're blinded by faith, it's disturbing.

THE W
08-05-2009, 10:24 PM
i really cant blame people for thinking christians are idiots. the word of God has been misinterpreted by so many people, both non-believers and believers.

still, the Lord cannot be blamed for man's repugnant interpretation of His word.

Face of the Golden Falcon
08-05-2009, 11:12 PM
^
that's the problem with words though. They can never contain the fullness of reality/truth. They can always, no matter how accurate they may be, be misinterpreted and misunderstood. Truth cant be known from reading words in a book, truth can only be known from experiencing truth. This is why the Bible is not "the word of God". God would not communicate the truth through something that can never contain the truth.

"...One ought not to think, in other words stop thinking..." CAN-I-BUS [One ought not to think]

Forget words for minute. Still your mind and experience truth...

SHEM HETEP

diggy
08-05-2009, 11:54 PM
^
that's the problem with words though. They can never contain the fullness of reality/truth. They can always, no matter how accurate they may be, be misinterpreted and misunderstood.

SHEM HETEP




If by words you mean words in the English language, then you are right. There are languages that convey reality thru words: Hebrew and Arabic. There could be others that I do not know about.

Face of the Golden Falcon
08-06-2009, 02:36 AM
^
No language can. Not reality/truth in it's absolute fullness. Reality can not be replaced by words. No matter how well I describe what a dog looks like (whether in english, hebrew, arabic, whatever...) the only way you will ever know the truth as to what a dog looks like is to experience what a dog looks like.

SHEM HETEP

diggy
08-06-2009, 03:07 AM
^
No language can. Not reality/truth in it's absolute fullness. Reality can not be replaced by words.

I'm not talking about replacing reality with words. I'm talking about words capturing the general meaning of somethings' essence.


No matter how well I describe what a dog looks like (whether in english, hebrew, arabic, whatever...) the only way you will ever know the truth as to what a dog looks like is to experience what a dog looks like.

SHEM HETEP

True. Obviously to know what a dog 'looks like', a person would need to 'look' at one. I am not talking about that though.

Many if not all words in the Hebrew/Arabic language have the basic idea of what a thing is in it's definition. And if you check the root consonants of the word, you would get the essence of the words meaning.

Arabic and Hebrew words are generally based on a root that uses three consonants to define the underlying meaning of the word.

Face of the Golden Falcon
08-06-2009, 07:03 AM
^
We're on the same page. I'm talking about people who think they are spiritual and "know" the word of God because they have read the bible daily. Yet they act like a savage in their day-to-day. Truth is experienced not read in a book, is all I'm saying.

SHEM HETEP

THE W
08-06-2009, 09:51 AM
^
We're on the same page. I'm talking about people who think they are spiritual and "know" the word of God because they have read the bible daily. Yet they act like a savage in their day-to-day.

of course,

the word of God are instructions for how those who follow him are to live. if they disobey these words and "live like savages" then they dont have truth, they've just read it.

read james 1:22-25

you cant just talk the talk, you gotta walk the walk.

Urban_Journalz
08-06-2009, 06:16 PM
i literally disagree with every fundamentalist piece of bullshit you just pulled out of your ass.
although to be honest, i'm about to head out to a party, so hopefully someone else will give you a rebuttal first, if not expect one from me tomorrow.
you're blinded by faith, it's disturbing.
I'm not surprised that you disagree, because that's what you were meant to do. Likewise with the petty insults and such. I just hope that you not only see the futility in doing such things, but that you also get a bit of insight into yourself by reading what you posted.

I doubt it though.

diggy
08-06-2009, 08:59 PM
^
We're on the same page. I'm talking about people who think they are spiritual and "know" the word of God because they have read the bible daily. Yet they act like a savage in their day-to-day. Truth is experienced not read in a book, is all I'm saying.

SHEM HETEP

Ok.

"Truth is experienced". I agree with that.

DrBold241
08-07-2009, 12:14 PM
I'm not surprised that you disagree, because that's what you were meant to do. Likewise with the petty insults and such. I just hope that you not only see the futility in doing such things, but that you also get a bit of insight into yourself by reading what you posted.

I doubt it though.

that i'm fundamentally against those with much faith in god whom have little respect for the scientific community? you got it.
dude, honestly, if you're just christian for the spirituality of it then there's nothing wrong with that.
however if you believe in the teachings of christ and "love thy neighbor" turning the cheek, etc, but then say "except for those queers", it's biggotry in the guise of morality. which i believe to be wrong. if you're an asshole, admit it (like me) rather than hiding behind your cross embedded curtain.

and what did you mean i can't critique a story that people interpret to be literal by using scientific facts to discredit the story itself? if you're going to believe in literal interpretation of bible stories, i will too- but in doing so will disprove them with logic & common sense.

time for that full rebuttal.....

nothing is impossible? really? can you cut off your arm and grow a new one? can you fly without technological aid? can you breathe for over 2 hours underwater without a scuba tank? can you destroy matter in an instant like Dr. Manhattan? or shoot beams of energy from your eyes like cyclops, without technological assistance?
oh well...... guess some things ARE humanly impossible.
granted those activities do become possible once we get SCIENCE to help us.

logic is based on the material world..... this is true, but know there is no scientific EVIDENCE to prove that your metaphysical after life even exists. don't get me wrong, if and when i see a soul travel from hell and tell me to be a good person or else i'm doomed to endless torture, or a scientist PROVES it...... then i'll believe it. but having concrete faith without evidence is foolish.

haha and why avoid the debate of adam and eve? the scientific community strongly opposes the idea of creationism. maybe because, once again buddy, THERE'S NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT IT BUT PLENTY TO DISCREDIT IT. this evidence i speak of is ofcourse evolution. maybe not even in the darwinian sense, but animals have evolved from others. and we has humans have gained greater skeletal structure over the past thousands of years. let's not even touch on how genetically similar we are to apes but rather how in medieval times their jawbone was large enough to keep their wisdom teeth in, now thats not the case. atleast not with MOST people. and for the record, even pop john paul stated that evolution is no longer a mere theory.

"However, you and I both know that there are some people in the world that need to be killed."
actually i don't know that. maybe because i care for human life too much. are there some people that should be exhiled and left to fend for themselves? yes, but isolation and death are different. you believe that cause you believe there to be an after life, as previously stated the afterlife theory has not been proven by anymeans so i see no point in allowing it to control my life. why should i follow laws written by corrupt religious officials over a millinia ago?

"I believe that Judgement Day is a full-blown conclusion, the only question is, where will we be when it happens?"
once again your own statement of your faith proves my point. you've stated you only care for CERTAIN human beings and not all life itself. i'd like to see humanity advance, and dieing is not a part of making my life better. actually it's an end. not a begining to spirituality after the fact..... when you're dead- you're dead. i had a friend flatline by OD and....... well there's no light. no tunnel. NOTHING. when you're dead- that's it.
and unlike you sir, i don't wish death upon ANYONE. i am a humanist. there is no "bad person", just those who aren't living to their full potential as a HUMAN BEING. not as a spirit.
what you just said with that statement is that you are OK with nuclear holocaust, does anyone else find that as disturbing as i do?

as for where i'll be? i won't dignify that with a direct response, because i aim not to allow it to happen, and to try and enlighten those to secularism as well as intelectualism.

i wish you no ill will, however i do wish you'll wise up and view reality as factual and not as temporary.

Urban_Journalz
08-08-2009, 03:18 PM
that i'm fundamentally against those with much faith in god whom have little respect for the scientific community? you got it.
dude, honestly, if you're just christian for the spirituality of it then there's nothing wrong with that.
however if you believe in the teachings of christ and "love thy neighbor" turning the cheek, etc, but then say "except for those queers", it's biggotry in the guise of morality. which i believe to be wrong. if you're an asshole, admit it (like me) rather than hiding behind your cross embedded curtain.

and what did you mean i can't critique a story that people interpret to be literal by using scientific facts to discredit the story itself? if you're going to believe in literal interpretation of bible stories, i will too- but in doing so will disprove them with logic & common sense.

time for that full rebuttal.....

nothing is impossible? really? can you cut off your arm and grow a new one? can you fly without technological aid? can you breathe for over 2 hours underwater without a scuba tank? can you destroy matter in an instant like Dr. Manhattan? or shoot beams of energy from your eyes like cyclops, without technological assistance?
oh well...... guess some things ARE humanly impossible.
granted those activities do become possible once we get SCIENCE to help us.

logic is based on the material world..... this is true, but know there is no scientific EVIDENCE to prove that your metaphysical after life even exists. don't get me wrong, if and when i see a soul travel from hell and tell me to be a good person or else i'm doomed to endless torture, or a scientist PROVES it...... then i'll believe it. but having concrete faith without evidence is foolish.

haha and why avoid the debate of adam and eve? the scientific community strongly opposes the idea of creationism. maybe because, once again buddy, THERE'S NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT IT BUT PLENTY TO DISCREDIT IT. this evidence i speak of is ofcourse evolution. maybe not even in the darwinian sense, but animals have evolved from others. and we has humans have gained greater skeletal structure over the past thousands of years. let's not even touch on how genetically similar we are to apes but rather how in medieval times their jawbone was large enough to keep their wisdom teeth in, now thats not the case. atleast not with MOST people. and for the record, even pop john paul stated that evolution is no longer a mere theory.

"However, you and I both know that there are some people in the world that need to be killed."
actually i don't know that. maybe because i care for human life too much. are there some people that should be exhiled and left to fend for themselves? yes, but isolation and death are different. you believe that cause you believe there to be an after life, as previously stated the afterlife theory has not been proven by anymeans so i see no point in allowing it to control my life. why should i follow laws written by corrupt religious officials over a millinia ago?

"I believe that Judgement Day is a full-blown conclusion, the only question is, where will we be when it happens?"
once again your own statement of your faith proves my point. you've stated you only care for CERTAIN human beings and not all life itself. i'd like to see humanity advance, and dieing is not a part of making my life better. actually it's an end. not a begining to spirituality after the fact..... when you're dead- you're dead. i had a friend flatline by OD and....... well there's no light. no tunnel. NOTHING. when you're dead- that's it.
and unlike you sir, i don't wish death upon ANYONE. i am a humanist. there is no "bad person", just those who aren't living to their full potential as a HUMAN BEING. not as a spirit.
what you just said with that statement is that you are OK with nuclear holocaust, does anyone else find that as disturbing as i do?

as for where i'll be? i won't dignify that with a direct response, because i aim not to allow it to happen, and to try and enlighten those to secularism as well as intelectualism.

i wish you no ill will, however i do wish you'll wise up and view reality as factual and not as temporary.

Biggotry in the guise of morality is wrong, but that wasn't the backbone of your argument, which seems more likely to be a case of, "If I can't see it, hear it, feel it etc. then it isn't real."

It's about balance. You choose to be an asshole for the same reasons that everyone else does, it's easy to do so. You don't have to live on a plane where you and your human emotions are as one and for the sake of being afraid of pain, you choose to go to the extreme negative, believing that you're exercising strength. That's your choice. This isn't about one or the other, positivity or negativity, it's about a healthy and equal balance between the two. At this point, this is well past your ability to grasp.

All of the things that you stated as being impossible are only impossible because you choose to think that they are. I would've hoped, that for someone so in love with science and "logic", that you would be well familiar with Quantum Theory, but obviously I was mistaken. Even if you are, you're probably one of the many who demonizes it simply because it doesn't sit well with you. Growing new limbs, firing death rays from your eyes, levitation (which the Yogis in India do quite often) are all matters of concentration. You say these things are, "Humanly impossible", but you come from a modern perspective. As such, it's very short-sighted. You have no idea what a human being is capable of because you've never tried to find out. You follow the notion that everything that there is to know about creation can be found in a classroom or a book. Since you've clearly decided to limit yourself in these aspects and are quite happy with that limitation, bon appetit. ^O^


No evidence to prove that you're metaphysical?.....o.k......look up, "Astral Projection". The soul leaves the body every time you go to sleep, though it's still connected. That alone would be enough for someone with adequate intelligence. It doesn't matter if you saw a soul from Hell or not, you wouldn't believe and when someone asked you to explain it, you probably blame it on global warming. Having faith without concrete evidence is foolish? No. Bowing to science and scientists, instead of The One who taught science to man is foolish. Get it straight. These people weren't born knowing about the speed of light or the Earth's axis being tilted.

The MAINSTREAM scientific community disagrees with the story of Adam and Eve. Again, I would think that this being a Wu-Tang forum, that we would all know that anything in the mainstream is 9 times out of 10 bullshit. Obviously I was mistaken.

Humans have gained greater skeletal structure? lol. Seriously. If you really look at Cro-Magnon man's skull, an enlarged brain means MORE capacity for thought, action, reaction, reflection, etc. Yeah, humans have evolved, but we've only gotten dumber through the ages, as can be seen clearly through skeletal structure and various threads. And for the record, Pope John Paul was part of The Illuminati, sue me if I'd take the word of a bum on the street first.

Awwww.....you care for human life? If that's really the case, then you know that to keep a man or woman alive, that behaves like a savage, is to further keep innocent people in danger. Period. You just don't have the backbone to even spiritually take a stand as strong as that, just like most other people. You think everything can be solved with clever words and a few people's votes. It's that kind of thinking that has given birth to so many weak individuals during the last few centuries. It takes courage to kill. Especially for the right reasons. You wouldn't even have to go into any book, your own soul can testify to that, provided you actually LISTEN to it and don't drown it out with your brain, and not even the whole brain, but the left-side in general.

I never said I didn't care for life in general and I would greatly appreciate it if you stopped trying to put words in my mouth. Some are sacrificed so others can live. If someone comes to your house and kills everyone there, minus yourself, if you're telling me that you would rather see him or her stand trial, rather than going out and killing them yourself, then you're just a pussy. Period. You'd rather talk than take action. You have to know when to negotiate and when to attack. Those beloved scientists of yours also made some of the finest weapons as well. Everything has a purpose.

I don't know who told you that everything revolved around you, but whoever did, they lied miserably. You're taking your own personal experience with Death as the determining factor in every experience? :lmao:

Anyone that is afraid of Death, is only afraid because of the things that they've done in life. The fear of Death alone is the subconscious telling you that there IS something and a VERY good reason to be afraid. I have no problem with a nuclear holocaust because I know that whatever happens was meant to happen, all I have to do is spend the time that I have properly.

If you're a humanist, then you know that some people need to go. Anything else is being a coward. You can do evil for so long that it literally becomes who you are. Or do you know nothing of Adolf Hitler either? You're talking about living to your full potential as a human being, but you believe in impossibility? /(

Enlightenment is up to the second party. I could care less what you do with whatever knowledge you gather, because it's obvious that you don't gather it in order to become one with it. More like having something interesting (seemingly anyway) to say during a conversation. And it's, "Intellectualism".

Dude....I'm done....you can't seem to make up your mind very well and it seems to change depending on how the conversation can benefit your appearance.

Oh, and reality is both factual and temporary.

JASPER
08-08-2009, 04:54 PM
I'm an atheist myself and I agree with a lot of points of the thread starter.

I will never try to talk people out of their religion, but I honestly find it hard to respect people who believe in some sort of higher power.

I don't mean I hate the followers, I just can't really connect to those kind of people. Even the ones who don't go to church or read the bible, but just feel that there's some man/women/creature up there, seem brainwashed. And talking to them feels like talking to a kid or a doped up druggie.

To me religious people are inferior to atheists and I realize that sounds arrogant and like I hold the truth, but I refuse to believe there's some magical being that has any sort of control over this planet.

Face of the Golden Falcon
08-08-2009, 07:17 PM
... but just feel that there's some man/women/creature up there, seem brainwashed...

...I refuse to believe there's some magical being that has any sort of control over this planet.

What you've stated is not the only concept of a higher power.

SHEM HETEP

Olive Oil Goombah
08-08-2009, 08:09 PM
I apply as much logic to my belief in my own personal existence.

There is no proof that I know of that explains everything. So I do not have those answers....As I live my life, I will always look for newer evidence through different perspectives, but I may or may not find the answer.

Its all, in my opinion how you chose to cope with not knowing the answer.
For some people, its comforting to believe there is a God watching over them and that their is a place for them when they die.

Others cannot lie to themselves.

There are many forms of belief, not all entail the 'invisible man' type.


I don't think I can label myself.

The closest thing I can say is that I have no label, no style, or more accurately that is what i wish to achieve.

Ability to adapt to whatever comes my way.

Urban_Journalz
08-09-2009, 07:00 PM
Hmmm

DrBold241
08-09-2009, 07:33 PM
...but I honestly find it hard to respect people who believe in some sort of higher power.

I don't mean I hate the followers, I just can't really connect to those kind of people. Even the ones who don't go to church or read the bible, but just feel that there's some man/women/creature up there, seem brainwashed. And talking to them feels like talking to a kid or a doped up druggie.

To me religious people are inferior to atheists and I realize that sounds arrogant and like I hold the truth, but I refuse to believe there's some magical being that has any sort of control over this planet.

co-sign. it all sounds like ridiculous children stories.


I apply as much logic to my belief in my own personal existence.


Its all, in my opinion how you chose to cope with not knowing the answer.
For some people, its comforting to believe there is a God watching over them and that their is a place for them when they die.

Others cannot lie to themselves.



precisely.
if you're in prison, at war, or just living a shitty life, by all means believe that your fate is in the hands of god rather than yourself. whatever helps you sleep at night.
however when you're in a city life and doing fairly well, or atleast decent, you may not exactly need the comfort of god.

as for mainstream vs underground, science is when mainstream is not bullshit friend, and it's actually the random theorists out there that got it twisted.
EVIDENCE matters and when it comes to the debate of a metaphysical after life, there's little to support it.
as for having modern views........ uh..... no shit? we exist in a modern world. i can access almost endles information in the palm of my hand, i could be typing this on my ipod (i'm not, but it's possible), so why should i try to interpret a modern world through a corrupted system of beliefs? yes the church is corrupt and as been since originated, that's why we needed the renaissance and atleast for a short time introduced secularism to our society, and i would like to see more of it.

as for levitation....... simply a magic trick buddy
etSivpBHUmE

again something you seem to miss dude is that i have stated numerous times I AM A PACIFIST. i don't condone murder whatsoever. no matter how justifiable you may claim it is. oh...... wait..... know who else justified not only murder but also genocide- HITLER.
so that argument of "evil" works just as well as the gateway theory of marijuana- it doesn't.

changing my argument? ok word it that way if you so please, i'm giving your old world views a broomstick in the ass with modernism. maybe because we don't live in 10 AD, we live in 2009. so pardon me for viewing the world in the way it is and not how it was.

Uncle Steezo
08-09-2009, 11:00 PM
atheism is the mind rejecting a lie.

the truth is that there is a physical reality and a non-physical reality that interact via your mind and body.

the fact that you can read my words, visualize the meaning, calculate its veracity and then command your fingers to type a response is proof of that.

desire/will (motives) cannot be proven in and of itself, but it exists none the less.

how can you quantify an intangible using tools that measure tangibles ? you can only examine the effects.

can you prove that you really enjoy wutang's music?
you can measure the changes in brain activity in the pleasure centers but that may be from you enjoying to pretend to like them.


there is another layer of reality that is unseen. this is the realm of what humanity calls God.

animals and plants live according to a few basic laws. these laws are universal. humanity calls that nature. but science refuses to address the fundamental force that sets that "animus" into motion.

LIFE....

how does an atheist define life?
how does an atheist rationalize a force that is intangible but leaves empirical evidence?


but on a deeper level...
how does an atheist rationalize a reality constructed of energy vibrations?
energy that can be manipulated by the force of will(thought).

the term energy itself implies an eternal unseen force that manifest in the form of the physical. a primary push, that according to science and religion, is always in motion and permeates reality itself.



how does your desire to type transmogrify from a concept (want/will), into an electrical impulse that moves your fingers?




so yeah most religious people and atheists are dumb because there is no balance between the spiritual and the physical.


but there is a science of life that does strike a balance tho.

*throws up a fist and nods to falcon*

DrBold241
08-09-2009, 11:23 PM
on a side note, there is a difference between fundamentalism and spirituality.
if you're to take old world views with a modern sense of logic you can have a good thing, but it varies depending on what views you keep and which ones you lose.

again- touching on how countless Christians are also prejudice towards gays (there are Christians who are racist as well, but more so against homosexuality). if you agree that bigotry in the guise of morality is wrong then you should agree with this statement.

another contributing factor to my disbelief is personally i believe that life is too short to be following laws written by religious officials in power over hundreds of years ago.
live your life how you WANT to live it, not as you're TOLD to live it.

all that is truely known is existence itself. without it there is nothing. to live is to exist, without life there is nothing. death is the end.

Uncle Steezo
08-10-2009, 05:17 AM
death can't be the end.
death is only a transition from a shared physical/nonphysical dimension to a purely nonphysical one.



i know it sounds cliche but if you stop and think about it....



your mind (not brain) exists outside of time and space.
you don't think in "realtime" and your thoughts lack mass and volume.
why would the destruction of the tool (body/meat puppet) signify the destruction of the user (mind/puppet master)?





you so are focused on religion you lost sight of what claiming to be an atheist means.

to be an atheist you have to:
disregard the empirical evidence all around and in you, that suggests that something, (God/"nature"/life), has established rules/system/laws that govern reality.

ignore the laws of physics that describe the fabric of reality and flow of energy.

flat out lie to yourself when something inside is saying otherwise





the magic genie puppet master sky god is a fairytale.
this is the control mechanism that you are associating with God.


God is in you and around you. everything is made of "God Particles" (matter/energy).

how can you control someone who knows that they are all powerful?
well, you have to separate God from man then place an institution in between.

religion.






you are being told how to live your life every second.
something is telling your energy field to vibrate in such a way that allows you to "exist" (atoms/cells/body)

something is telling your body to remind you(mind) it needs to transmute more energy from one form to another in order maintain the connection(body/brain) you have with this physical dimension.
(stomach growl)

something is telling you that holding your breath indefinitely is not a good idea. (pass out)

this "something" is so omniscient that "every action has a reaction" meaning that nothing can be hidden from it. you can't break this law when the universe isn't watching. God is always watching.




two particles formed from the same event can be on the opposite sides of the universe, but still affect each other INSTANTLY.
since all matter in this universe comes from the same event (big bang), then everything in existence is connected by an "unseen" bond. omnipresent. God is everywhere.



Science theorizes that anything is possible, just that some things are more probable than others. its possible that one day i'll pop a mile long boner... but its probably not going to happen.
but on a quantum level, there is nothing preventing the "quantum foam" that my dick atoms are made of, from manifesting as a king king shlong.

somewhere in the fabric of reality, there must be a system that regulates what frequency matter/energy (strings) must vibrate.

something determines which globs of foam vibrate at "dick atom" frequency and which globs of matter/energy vibrate at "erection heat" frequency.

that same something also regulates the amount of time that "note" is held.

whatever is the mechanism for this is, it's fundamental and powerful enuff to manufacture reality itself. omnipotent. God is all powerful.


now if this omniscient, onmipresent, omnipotent... something(God), is intertwined into every aspect of existence, how could its sphere of influence stop short of human behavior(morality/divine law)? there is a right way and wrong way to live.

grey area?.... i guess... when it comes to each and every minute decision you make in life. but there comes a point where coffee with cream becomes cream with coffee.

playing bulletproof wallets instead of ironman isn't a sin, aka an act contrary to universal/divine law.
but sticking your dick in the usb slot of your ipod prolly is.




religion doesn't want you to connect the dots like i just did.
otherwise it gets rendered obsolete.

once you learn how to hear what God is telling you to do, there's no need for a preacher/imam/rabbi/priest to do it.




wow this is a long post and i prolly rambled a bit.
basically just transcribing a train of thought.

DrBold241
08-10-2009, 09:19 AM
nice rebuttal, but i guess in that sense i am an abstract athiest.

but as for the subject of death i personally believe one uses the idea of an afterlife to help them feel at ease about a loved one's passing. it's denial; it helps some feel comfortable, and others just believe it to be a way of coping.

Uncle Steezo
08-10-2009, 05:04 PM
even look at the word you used, "passing".
a pass is a transition.

what are people in denial of, when they use the "idea of an afterlife"?

what abstraction is the foundation of your atheism?


i do agree with some of what you said.
yes.
people use false religious dogma to feel better about a life lived as a lie.

a life devoted to "going to heaven" is a life wasted. simply because your time in this dimension should be devoted to this dimension and your effect on it.

you have taken the 1st step by rejecting the lie (religion). now you need to take the next step which is seeing and recognizing the truth that is staring you in the face.

Olive Oil Goombah
08-10-2009, 05:30 PM
very good

diggy
08-10-2009, 06:44 PM
once you learn how to hear what God is telling you to do, there's no need for a preacher/imam/rabbi/priest to do it.




You've said alot in this post that I agree with, but I quote this. A lot of people for some reason devalue their own intelligence to hear what a pastor/imam/rabbi says. This is very stupid. Those religious figures have the same books their followers have. They (the followers) most likely all have brains, eyes, and are able to read like them (religious leaders) too.

When people use THEIR perceptive senses, they will be better off.

diggy
08-10-2009, 06:48 PM
I also wanna say that atheist have a problem. They seem to mostly believe in what their eyes could see and are unable to connect the seen with an unseen power/force. They have a hard time conceptualizing (seeing with the third eye).

Olive Oil Goombah
08-10-2009, 06:59 PM
balance is the key.

Atheists are usually people who have belonged to a religion. So they are very wary of anything that is relied upon by faith to do.

DrBold241
08-11-2009, 10:54 PM
even look at the word you used, "passing".
a pass is a transition.

what are people in denial of, when they use the "idea of an afterlife"?

what abstraction is the foundation of your atheism?


i do agree with some of what you said.
yes.
people use false religious dogma to feel better about a life lived as a lie.

a life devoted to "going to heaven" is a life wasted. simply because your time in this dimension should be devoted to this dimension and your effect on it.

you have taken the 1st step by rejecting the lie (religion). now you need to take the next step which is seeing and recognizing the truth that is staring you in the face.


i guess in the sense that i'm agnostic to an extent. i'll admit- i don't truely 100% know.
but i highly doubt there is a god, atleast in the religious sense.
and on that same note, i guess i'm moreso atheist than agnostic because organized religion is purely bullshit. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH SPIRITUALITY, but religious fundamentalism is a completely different story.
again addressing the "Judgment Day" concept- if you are so contempt with the end of humanity, you are only enabling it to occur. which personally i find disturbing.

Religion is a good concept gone bad with corruption and lies (just like most political systems).
JC, i know you already stated your views towards homophobia but don't you agree that it's wrong for one to say they love Jesus and would like to follow in his footsteps (love thy neighbor, turn the other cheek, etc) but then preach bigotry? not that every christian is that way, but i say it's a fair majority.
the idea of the apocalypse is also genocide of the human species as well as all life in genera. so to say you love human life but then go "but so-and-so should die for this reason" and/or "there will be a judgment day and we will all die" is pure hypocrisy.
and to me it seems like corruption/hypocrisy just go hand in hand with organized religion.

that is why i'm an atheist. not because of people who believe in spirituality and an after life but rather those who believe in literal interpretation of religious scriptures. those same folks who talk bigotry in the guis of morality; the same folks who spend all their time on this earth worrying about what affect it will have on their afterlife.
"It's all bullshit, and it's bad for ya."

but going with a more positive note i think Kweli put it greatly-
sGvZ9aXg5Xs

Uncle Steezo
08-12-2009, 06:49 AM
you keep bringing religion into it. false religion at that. that is the basis of your argument.
" all i know is the scriptures and everyone who follows them literally are dumb"

yeah bold i know. i feel the same way.



He's waiting for you Bold.
God is waiting for you to acknowledge him.
he's sitting inside every atom of your being waiting for you to see him.
waiting for you to open the gift of power sitting on your doorstep.
all you have to do is acknowledge him.
fuck the bible.
it ain't about that.
its about you denying that a key part of yourself does not exist.

its okay man, just say it.
"THERE IS A GOD. GOD IS IN ME. GOD IS ALL AROUND ME "
you don't have to say it here.
start by saying it to yourself.

here's a scientific experiment for you.
tell yourself
"THERE IS A GOD. GOD IS IN ME. GOD IS ALL AROUND ME "
3 times a day during the month of august. you have to say it out loud but nobody has to be around.

say it when you get up say it once during the day and say it once before sleep.

we'll talk again in september and see if anything happens. if not then, nothing changes for you. but if something does happen then you know you were living a lie that was bigger than the one you rejected.

three short phrases 3 times a day. i think a question as big as "is there a God?" is worth that right?


you already feel him. you feel the pull towards a different way of thinking. i can feel the conflict in your last post. i can feel you trying to quiet what your mind is telling you.

"THERE IS A GOD. GOD IS IN ME. GOD IS ALL AROUND ME"

DrBold241
08-12-2009, 08:25 AM
the problem is i don't believe the statement because i don't need to.
i don't believe there's a part of me missing.
and even if i were, well that's just a female counterpart, which mine is in puerto rico right now.

not every human being feels empty nor do they need god in their life.
i don't.
having "god" in my life simply made me feel uncomfortable.

I doubt there's a god. I don't need him/her in me. Science and Art is all around me.

Compulsion
08-12-2009, 09:24 AM
.Say you hear about an amazing treasure house containing jewels for the taking but you don’t have the key to the door: all your fantasies about how you’ll spend your new–found wealth are a complete hallucination. Similarly, fantasizing about wonderful religious ideas and peak experiences but having no interest in immediate action or the methods of attainment is totally unrealistic. If you have no method, no key, no way to bring your religion into your everyday life, you’d be better off with Coca–Cola. At least that quenches your thirst. If your religion is simply an idea, it’s as insubstantial as air. You should be very careful that you understand exactly what religion is and how it should be practiced.

Uncle Steezo
08-12-2009, 03:26 PM
the problem is i don't believe the statement because i don't need to.
i don't believe there's a part of me missing.
and even if i were, well that's just a female counterpart, which mine is in puerto rico right now.

not every human being feels empty nor do they need god in their life.
i don't.
having "god" in my life simply made me feel uncomfortable.

I doubt there's a god. I don't need him/her in me. Science and Art is all around me.
that isn't atheism.


whether you think you need God is irrelevant.
you may not think you need oxygen.

science only describes the preset rules of this reality.
every effect must have a cause.
what is the cause for these rules?

DrBold241
08-13-2009, 11:33 AM
existence is the cause in it's own right.
and i know i don't need god.
been without him for a good while now. and i think i've been doing alright.
i stopped talking to him when i noticed my prayers went unanswered. he's kind of a douche.

just like most douchebags who cause drama- life is better without em.
i believe mankind holds the same power as god. we can create and destroy. we even created the idea of a god.
Man created god, and thus man can reject god

without oxygen i'll lose my breathe and pass out. you CAN prove you need oxygen to breathe, you CAN NOT prove you need god to live. i've been happier without god in my life and so have most people with doubt. seems like Bill Maher's a pretty happy dude, same goes for Patton Oswald, Bruce Lee didn't believe in god, nor did George Carlin (and he was a former drug user and alcoholic who lived to be 70), nor does Seth Mcfarlane.

actually let's save my typing, peep it-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famous_atheists

hm...... seems like many people have lived healthy lives without god.

Mumm Ra
08-13-2009, 07:54 PM
bold still stuck on the "sky god" as being the only way "god" could be
:no:
i believe mankind holds the same power as god.
:yes:

DrBold241
08-14-2009, 04:30 PM
i still doubt the existence of god in the metaphysical sense, but in the practical sense i believe human is god.
the potential of what we can accomplish is near endless.
but this does not come with the help of miracles at all, but rather ambition.
through being ambitious you can reach what you want to achieve.
the only way "god" would help is if you're an insecure individual and the belief of the presence of a metaphysical being helps give you confidence.
but either way that's your confidence.

CGyif4YWTns
"The bible is not my book, nor is Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma."~ Abraham Lincoln

Mumm Ra
08-14-2009, 04:59 PM
you didn't say anything to refute what I said - rather confirmed it by using the terms "the only way"
nobody said anything about god being a metaphysical being
or even a "being" at all
I'm just gonna watch a minute of that vid cuz I already know Bills views and like his show a lot - but he is bitch slapping religion, and religion based on that mystery god being in the sky - and I'm all for that. But like I said that's only a single, narrow view of what "god" is or could be.

peace

DrBold241
08-14-2009, 09:06 PM
i didn't refute your statement because i don't disagree.
God is Man.
and vice versa.

Mumm Ra
08-15-2009, 04:40 PM
i believe mankind holds the same power as god. we can create and destroy. we even created the idea of a god.
Man created god, and thus man can reject god


hmm
so you define "god" as one that can create and destroy
wouldn't you say the universe (outside of man) creates and destroys?
stars, planets, galaxies, solar systems....humans.
so it does so on a much larger scale than man - but like you said man shares in these qualities, but you do not view a god besides what humans accomplish?

did man create this "god" that can create and destroy on a much larger scale than we can? or is it the other way around?

you could say we created the idea of god - but then you could also say we created the idea of anything -
just because we give words to an observation doesn't mean it is not true
and just because we reject something doesn't mean it isn't there (like crow said, oxygen for example)

DrBold241
08-17-2009, 12:20 PM
you're using crow's example better but still the difference is you can test the absence of oxygen, you can't with god.
even moreso since there are countless individuals who refute the idea of god and an afterlife but still continue to maintain a healthy lifestyle.

so are you saying the universe itself is god? or better yet- god is life?
i could see that, but even still it's not a god in the metaphysical being sense.

do we all atleast agree the "man in the sky" ideal of god is just ridiculous?

if you're saying that god is life in itself than i can agree to that.
however if you're saying something sets off a star because the species on the surrounding planets have done wrong..... that's ridiculous and THAT i will forever refuse to believe.

God is not wrong, fundamentalism is.
seems to be my general message throughout this thread.
maybe i should change the title to what fuels someone to refute these religious fundamentalists such as evangelicals.

so i'll sum it up:
God is art, art is life, and thus god is life (or something along those lines) i can understand. does it completely fit how i see things necessarily? no. but i can understand the argument and don't exactly refute the idea to the fullest.
however- god in the "invisible man in the sky" sense is wrong.
believing in a judgment day is disturbing.
and ofcourse one should not spend too much of their time on earth dwelling about an afterlife as it may not even exist.

Uncle Steezo
08-17-2009, 06:03 PM
nobody mentioned art. why you did..idk?


God is the medium from which reality vibrates.
that makes god omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent.
these are the 3 qualities that define God.

Yes. God is the universe. God is everywhere. God is you.

so there's your proof. reality itself.
prove that reality doesn't exist and you might be onto something.

DrBold241
08-18-2009, 11:28 AM
if god is reality and not a being,than my actions will not determine an afterlife.

and i mentioned art because.... eh it's why i don't need religion. why pray when i can just throw on a record, maybe take a toke or two, and be happy as can be?

Uncle Steezo
08-18-2009, 06:04 PM
you are really hung up on this bible/prayer/religion thing aren't you?

your actions will determine your LIFE. idk about after that. i dont think i have died before but i'm not sure.

prayer-do you think to yourself? have you ever asked yourself a question? who the hell are you talking to? who is talking and who is doing the listening? (hold off on this. it deserves a thread. meet me there)


anyway...

there has to be an afterlife.
right now you exist on two planes spiritual and physical.
at the time when your brain can no longer anchor your mind to the physical plane(death), your spirit (will) does not disappear.

it was never physical in the 1st place so how can a physical death affect it?
a purely spiritual existence is not bound by space or time.
i can't tell you what it is, but i know that my mind is not bound by space or time either. so i can only assume its similar to a dream.

idk. we'll both find out one day and then you can kiss my spiritual ass at that point as i mock you for being so stiff minded on back earth.



peace

DrBold241
08-19-2009, 10:14 AM
prove to me this spiritual realm you speak of even exists.
not just your words.
but facts, excerpts from articles in the scientific community, not just testimony but EVIDENCE.

also show me any evidence to this afterlife you speak of. why does it HAVE to exist?
it exists as a means for human beings to cope with the death of a loved one.
it's denial to put your mind at ease, if you need that kind of thing....
i don't.

how's this.... if heaven or hell exists may my deceased family memembers come speak to me. if i hear some WW2 stories from my grandpa i'll let you know.
don't get your hopes up.

Uncle Steezo
08-19-2009, 10:55 AM
now i KNOW you are not asking me for PHYSICAL evidence for a nonphysical plane?

you're joking right?



prove intuition
prove the source of an idea
prove introspection
prove analytical thought
prove subconscious thought
prove the contents of a dream
prove your memories exist


lets make it easy... prove you desire (want) something.
how do you prove that you wanted a career in paleontology, for example?

you'd have to bring that idea from the spiritual (unseen) into the physical(seen) by:

verbalizing-turning an idea into a physical vibration that is transmitted by matter and recieved by an eardrum.

applying your will- turning your desire into reality by pursuing a career in paleontology.

until you do one of those 2 things your desire(will) is unseen(spiritual) and cannot be tested. there is zero proof that you want a career in paleontology.

so do you mean to tell me that all your wants dreams and desires do not exist because you cannot provide empirical evidence for them?


you soundin really silly Bold, and thats saying alot coming from me.


you and i are living in the spiritual realm right now.
we live in the physical and spiritual simultaneously.



i never mentioned heaven or hell. please stop putting judeo-christian dogma in my mouth. i have nothing to do with that nonsense.


as far as your grandpap, maybe you aren't listening.
i would hope you aren't trying to hear him with your ears, cause his mouth is still on his corpse.
if he is trying to contact you its prolly on his plane, the spiritual. but you refuse to acknowledge that realm. so you'll prolly never communicate with him until you're dead.

personally i don't understand the rationale you use about "making someone feel better about death" regardless whether someone's spirit/animus/spark "goes to heaven" or "disappears" they are still inanimate(dead).

Robert
08-19-2009, 11:28 AM
I'm going to have a good hard think about this (I'm serious) and come back.

My friends and I are more focused on the humour surrounding the creationist vs. evolution debate, but I'm beginning to see how irrevelant that is (not just from this thread of course) and where the real issue lies.

Uncle Steezo
08-19-2009, 01:00 PM
if you strip the conversation of weighted words like GOD, SOUL, SPIRIT everything i've been saying becomes much more palatable and actually is not a huge stretch of the imagination.
those are just words.. names. names that have taken on lives of their own. then twisted by the lies that have been told in order to control you.
or they have been distorted by those who took the metaphor and made it literal.

people look for angels and trumpets when searching for the divine, but fail to see the divinity staring them in the face.

My First Timbs
08-20-2009, 12:12 AM
Hello guys

Whether or not one believes in or follows a religion has no bearing on the concept of (or their concept) of atheism.

Atheism is strictly disbelief in belief of a god.... religion (acknowledgement of an existence greater than ones self technically has no bearing on atheism)

Disbelief in religion or religious practices is not a form of atheism.

Disbelief in the concept of a god is atheism.

Just wanted to clarify that.

Atheism (disbelief in the concept of a god) is a default stance until there is a justifiable and objective reason to believe otherwise.

FOr something to be justifiable and objective, it must be falsifiable and able to be perceived without any preconceived suppositions.

For ex, belief in a metaphysical aspect to reality has yet to be presented as falsifiable (i.e an admission of what it would take to prove this claim wrong)..thus, according to reason and rational thought, it is an irrational stance.

Robert
08-20-2009, 01:25 AM
Hello guys

Whether or not one believes in or follows a religion has no bearing on the concept of (or their concept) of atheism.

Atheism is strictly disbelief in belief of a god.... religion (acknowledgement of an existence greater than ones self technically has no bearing on atheism)

Disbelief in religion or religious practices is not a form of atheism.

Disbelief in the concept of a god is atheism.

Just wanted to clarify that.

Atheism (disbelief in the concept of a god) is a default stance until there is a justifiable and objective reason to believe otherwise.

FOr something to be justifiable and objective, it must be falsifiable and able to be perceived without any preconceived suppositions.

For ex, belief in a metaphysical aspect to reality has yet to be presented as falsifiable (i.e an admission of what it would take to prove this claim wrong)..thus, according to reason and rational thought, it is an irrational stance.

Very well said.

Uncle Steezo
08-20-2009, 02:20 AM
Hello guys

Whether or not one believes in or follows a religion has no bearing on the concept of (or their concept) of atheism.

Atheism is strictly disbelief in belief of a god.... religion (acknowledgement of an existence greater than ones self technically has no bearing on atheism)

Disbelief in religion or religious practices is not a form of atheism.

Disbelief in the concept of a god is atheism.

Just wanted to clarify that.
^^^
agree with all this.

Atheism (disbelief in the concept of a god) is a default stance until there is a justifiable and objective reason to believe otherwise.

FOr something to be justifiable and objective, it must be falsifiable and able to be perceived without any preconceived suppositions.

For ex, belief in a metaphysical aspect to reality has yet to be presented as falsifiable (i.e an admission of what it would take to prove this claim wrong)..thus, according to reason and rational thought, it is an irrational stance.


this is valid for an objectified topic of conversation. like unicorns.

but we are talking about a subjective topic. spirit/mind
and really the core of the theist atheist discussion.



i totally disagree with the default position being atheism.
ever since man became sentient, he has heard an inner voice.
even before he knew language. he was thinking. thought, that is not falsifiable.


simply put, the line of reasoning you presented does not apply to this topic.


now if you were to suggest that every individual has his own universe within... and i cannot falsify what goes on in ur universe but can in my own.... i might be inclined to follow your logic.

but as it stands, thought is not falsifiable, and by your line of reasoning, is irrational to believe thought exists.

but you and i both know thats not the case.



see the conundrum?

Robert
08-20-2009, 02:30 AM
"an admission of what it would take to prove this claim wrong"

My Brother's Keeper
08-21-2009, 05:31 PM
not about the existence, but about the belief.
organized religion is full of shit and is evidence that it didn't take long for mankind to learn that he can fool others inferior to him by lying.

word... belief aint the problem and everyone should be entitled to make their own choices without fear of violence or hatred... organized religion will not let that occur... stay outta the mosque and the church and study your scriptures as well as counterpoint books from athiests and make your own decisions... Peace and God Bless