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View Full Version : Are Rap Lyricists Overrated?


The Grandmaster
10-03-2009, 11:39 PM
I'll try to keep the intro short, but before I say anything, I'd like to mention that rap is probably my favorite genre of music. I have more of it on my MP3 player than anything else.

But how good are rappers as writers? I'm not talking about Kanye West, Lil John, Lil Wayne, etc. Almost every time a thread like this is made, hip hop heads tell you to go listen to 2pac, Biggie, Immortal Technique, Rakim, and many other underground rappers.

And I do.

http://www.musicsonglyrics.com/R/rakimlyrics/rakimmicrophonefiendlyrics.htm

I find stuff like that. Rakim, the rapper most often given the number 1 spot on GOAT lists, and ... his lyrics are boring? Even something like this, which I actually think is written better.

http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/One-Mic-lyrics-Nas/26665BDD3403089248256B330044F5C8

It's good, but is it that good? Rappers don't play instruments, so you kind of have to judge them as writers and only writers, and so I compare them to all writers. Can you think back to all the beautiful poetry you've read, all the great descriptions/metaphors/wordplay you've read in novels, and then say those Microphone fiend lyrics are really worth much?

Again, I love rap. I'm not trying to "hate" on it, but what's your opinion? What rappers do you really admire for their writing?

whitey
10-03-2009, 11:44 PM
no trout, im in agreement.

im more into beats. beats make the music. lyrics can be amusing, an occasionally deep, but its more about how its said and how it sounds to me.

knowledge is in books not rap (music in general) lyrics.

ALCATRAZ
10-03-2009, 11:50 PM
knowledge is in books not rap (music in general) lyrics.

wrong

TGambino
10-03-2009, 11:50 PM
i just like good songs

TGambino
10-03-2009, 11:52 PM
knowledge is in books not rap (music in general) lyrics.

real niggas dont read books

racist randy
10-03-2009, 11:55 PM
real niggas dont read books
He's white he wouldn't know that.

The Grandmaster
10-03-2009, 11:57 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRZkY5DI8QA

These guys actually inspired me to make this thread. I love Jazz Addixx, but I swear they are delusional. Just listen to the first verse. It's such basic rhyming yet he seems to think it's so amazing and that his lyrics are just so "underground" and deep. It's frustrating to me for some reason.

whitey
10-04-2009, 12:01 AM
real niggas dont read books


its sad real niggas want to hold themselves down like that.

The Grandmaster
10-04-2009, 12:05 AM
2pacs book collection would rank fairly high amongst wucorpers.

Sinapse
10-04-2009, 12:18 AM
As for the "GOAT" convos, they are arbitrary imo...with Pac and Biggie, popularity is a huge thing...Pac was a very basic lyricist, but he spoke on real shit and delivered with emotion like no other, Biggie was a clever writer, but his voice and flow is what made him legendary imo...Rakim is not really GOAT in that many people's mind anyway, i think more the father of the east coast lyrical style, i.e. lots of metaphors, rhyming more syllables than old skool rap etc

Emcees are the best lyricists in music imo, they don't benefit from the original music being played on instruments, like the guitar in rock music for example...if you examine rock lyrics you'll see they are pretty basic and painfully repetitive most of the time, the music is almost more about the instruments and the vocals blend in more, the emcee is front and center in Hip Hop music

From a language manipulation standpoint, it's also not really close, emcees conjure more complex imagery and create more complex rhyming arrangements than any other kind of lyricists, not to mention the alteration of enunciating things to create rhymes, and shit like wordplay/double meanings...a lot of other genres the lyrics are supposed to be simple and tap into a basic emotion, not nearly as complex/abstract

imo of course, me being a emcee having nothing to do with it, i been listening to music for way longer than I been writing

ALCATRAZ
10-04-2009, 12:25 AM
^solid post

spiggity_ace
10-04-2009, 02:01 AM
As for the "GOAT" convos, they are arbitrary imo...with Pac and Biggie, popularity is a huge thing...Pac was a very basic lyricist, but he spoke on real shit and delivered with emotion like no other, Biggie was a clever writer, but his voice and flow is what made him legendary imo...Rakim is not really GOAT in that many people's mind anyway, i think more the father of the east coast lyrical style, i.e. lots of metaphors, rhyming more syllables than old skool rap etc

Emcees are the best lyricists in music imo, they don't benefit from the original music being played on instruments, like the guitar in rock music for example...if you examine rock lyrics you'll see they are pretty basic and painfully repetitive most of the time, the music is almost more about the instruments and the vocals blend in more, the emcee is front and center in Hip Hop music

From a language manipulation standpoint, it's also not really close, emcees conjure more complex imagery and create more complex rhyming arrangements than any other kind of lyricists, not to mention the alteration of enunciating things to create rhymes, and shit like wordplay/double meanings...a lot of other genres the lyrics are supposed to be simple and tap into a basic emotion, not nearly as complex/abstract

imo of course, me being a emcee having nothing to do with it, i been listening to music for way longer than I been writing

gea thats a great post homie , this is basically how i feel, i dont get wuts so artistic about the lyrics of rock groups and shit like that it isnt good to me, but shit like that old blues, reggae n stuff thats not bad i like the words of that. I dont see good lyricism with the beatles and those kinds of classic rock groups either.

MaskedAvenger
10-04-2009, 02:09 AM
I purchased my first hip hop album in 1988 and have been a huge fan ever since and one thing i will say on this topic is that today people focus on "lyricists" too much, they forget there is more to a emcee than just clever lyrics, a emcee has to be unique, have charisma and flow and also be able to create a good album. There are too many artists out there today who are talented writers but their actual music sucks but everybody and everybody is on their dick because of their clever lyrics, FUCK THAT! For example, Slick Rick isn't the greatest lyricist by any means but he has charisma that a canibus could only dream of.

SHEEPISH LORD OF CHAOS
10-04-2009, 03:12 AM
as for the "goat" convos, they are arbitrary imo...with pac and biggie, popularity is a huge thing...pac was a very basic lyricist, but he spoke on real shit and delivered with emotion like no other, biggie was a clever writer, but his voice and flow is what made him legendary imo...rakim is not really goat in that many people's mind anyway, i think more the father of the east coast lyrical style, i.e. Lots of metaphors, rhyming more syllables than old skool rap etc

emcees are the best lyricists in music imo, they don't benefit from the original music being played on instruments, like the guitar in rock music for example...if you examine rock lyrics you'll see they are pretty basic and painfully repetitive most of the time, the music is almost more about the instruments and the vocals blend in more, the emcee is front and center in hip hop music

from a language manipulation standpoint, it's also not really close, emcees conjure more complex imagery and create more complex rhyming arrangements than any other kind of lyricists, not to mention the alteration of enunciating things to create rhymes, and shit like wordplay/double meanings...a lot of other genres the lyrics are supposed to be simple and tap into a basic emotion, not nearly as complex/abstract

imo of course, me being a emcee having nothing to do with it, i been listening to music for way longer than i been writing

exactly only that's close to rap is poetry. I took a poetry class n we did all two & 1/2 weeks of raps n i helped teach it. And that was the same arguement i made about rap music is that more than any other genre that uses lyrics aren't that enticing in the way they write, etc. I love rap too much i love listening to stories that kool g rap, ghost,biggie and rae tell i love the abstract imagery cats like 2pac, rza, canibus, immortal techique,etc. And all does it in different ways.

Frank Sobotka
10-04-2009, 04:40 AM
I purchased my first hip hop album in 1988 and have been a huge fan ever since and one thing i will say on this topic is that today people focus on "lyricists" too much, they forget there is more to a emcee than just clever lyrics, a emcee has to be unique, have charisma and flow and also be able to create a good album. There are too many artists out there today who are talented writers but their actual music sucks but everybody and everybody is on their dick because of their clever lyrics, FUCK THAT! For example, Slick Rick isn't the greatest lyricist by any means but he has charisma that a canibus could only dream of./endthread

g_flex
10-04-2009, 05:21 AM
its dope when poetry/lyrics are recited over a fly loop ..

NinjaSpiT
10-04-2009, 05:44 AM
There is no answer to this question.Music is subjective.What is broing to most,is intellectual food to others,with much more chakras open. If you like lower level chakra rap,and only one chakra of energy spit excited you than do you,however,syaing Rakim is boring sounds absurd to me.I look at it like,the point is to open up all of your chakras spiritually,so what you deem as boring,just sounds realy absurd to me,especially that black people who are a spiritual people are out of tune with their spirituality.

Shogah
10-04-2009, 06:02 AM
I purchased my first hip hop album in 1988 and have been a huge fan ever since and one thing i will say on this topic is that today people focus on "lyricists" too much, they forget there is more to a emcee than just clever lyrics, a emcee has to be unique, have charisma and flow and also be able to create a good album. There are too many artists out there today who are talented writers but their actual music sucks but everybody and everybody is on their dick because of their clever lyrics, FUCK THAT! For example, Slick Rick isn't the greatest lyricist by any means but he has charisma that a canibus could only dream of.

co sign.

To be a good mc your task is not only to be a good writer.

you need charisma, good delivery, you need idea behind all that.

You need to Move the Crowd.

Sinapse
10-04-2009, 10:14 AM
I purchased my first hip hop album in 1988 and have been a huge fan ever since and one thing i will say on this topic is that today people focus on "lyricists" too much, they forget there is more to a emcee than just clever lyrics, a emcee has to be unique, have charisma and flow and also be able to create a good album. There are too many artists out there today who are talented writers but their actual music sucks but everybody and everybody is on their dick because of their clever lyrics, FUCK THAT! For example, Slick Rick isn't the greatest lyricist by any means but he has charisma that a canibus could only dream of.

I agree with you, tho I'm sure you could find lots of people who prefer Canibus to Slick Rick, plus Bis started poppin up on tracks in 96, not exactly "today" as you put it...

Also, the logic is a little suspect because lyricism is really less important than ever in the game. Being ill doesn't get you anything these days, it's more about having the right sound and being catchy.

Like anything else tho, it's a combo of all the elements...ideally you'd like an emcee that can write like hell but also has a human side and can make good music, not just dope verses, there are really very few emcees that do this today but what do you expect in a genre of music that has been completely commercialized over the last 10 years and doesn't even have a real underground base of fans anymore.

Sinapse
10-04-2009, 10:18 AM
co sign.

To be a good mc your task is not only to be a good writer.

you need charisma, good delivery, you need idea behind all that.

You need to Move the Crowd.

That is what the stage is for. The ideas and writing and concepts is something that a fan can enjoy getting lit and zoning with some headphones on. Getting a crowd into your set has absolutely nothing to do with that and the best tracks on wax may be shit on stage...this ties back into there not being a real underground scene anymore, it's starting to come back in places, but the venues and events where the cream can rise aren't popping like in the past, so you got a lot of studio cliques just hangin out with their jerkoff friends "making music" but not actually do anything to create a thriving scene of fans

MaskedAvenger
10-04-2009, 10:45 AM
I agree with you, tho I'm sure you could find lots of people who prefer Canibus to Slick Rick, plus Bis started poppin up on tracks in 96, not exactly "today" as you put it...

Also, the logic is a little suspect because lyricism is really less important than ever in the game. Being ill doesn't get you anything these days, it's more about having the right sound and being catchy.

Like anything else tho, it's a combo of all the elements...ideally you'd like an emcee that can write like hell but also has a human side and can make good music, not just dope verses, there are really very few emcees that do this today but what do you expect in a genre of music that has been completely commercialized over the last 10 years and doesn't even have a real underground base of fans anymore.

That was exactly my point, its a combination of many things that makes a great emcee, not just who can spit the illest metaphors

The Grandmaster
10-04-2009, 10:50 AM
wut do u think about this

"What a nonsensical debate. A rapper's lyricism can only be gauged against other rappers. As a group, to call them "overrated" suggests they should be judged against other forms of writing, which they shouldn't. Rap is on a completely different wavelength than other, more traditional forms of writing. All they have in common is the use of words."

oDoUoSoKo
10-04-2009, 11:07 AM
ya lyricists are over rated...i prefer judging another male's voice, and cadence....which are uniformly essential, obviously more so than the actual words...which could be written by someone else for all i care

Sinapse
10-04-2009, 11:14 AM
wut do u think about this

"What a nonsensical debate. A rapper's lyricism can only be gauged against other rappers. As a group, to call them "overrated" suggests they should be judged against other forms of writing, which they shouldn't. Rap is on a completely different wavelength than other, more traditional forms of writing. All they have in common is the use of words."

This viewpoint is valid, but you could argue it isn't on a total diff wavelength because at the end of the day they are still using language to express themselves...but in anything you should compare an artist to peers in their genre, not to other genres, but this is an interesting debate that I have thought about over the years, coming to the realization that other genres have much more simple lyrics than hip hop

main_man
10-04-2009, 11:17 AM
this is a thread for people who view "rap" music as a part of their personal overall pop culture.

this is not a thread for people who grew up and respect the HIP HOP culture.

GhettoGnom
10-04-2009, 05:17 PM
Great topic, though I disagree. I don't think rap lyricists are overrated at all, and by the public they're greatly underrated. Amongst heads, I think content is underrated, and rappers with no substance often overrated, which is why I can see your point of view.


Again, I love rap. I'm not trying to "hate" on it, but what's your opinion? What rappers do you really admire for their writing?

Good question, and to me there's two people that sticks out in particular.

1. Vast Aire on The Cold Vein. His rhyme schemes are basic and he sucks using multies, but everything you said you're missing in rap that you love in poetry, Vast got. From "My mother said "you sucked my pussy when you came out!"" to the lyrical masterpiece that is "The F-Word", Vast wrote like no other on this album.
IljbLomFccA
^Probably one of the best written tracks ever.

2. Tonedeff, right now. When Chico and the Man drops, listen carefully, and you'll understand what I mean. No rapper, dead or alive, can mix rhymes and substance as well as this dude does. Double meanings, metaphors, similies or whatever you desire, Tone fits it into his most personal track as well as his least personal tracks, and it's all delivered so fucking effortlessly. I don't think many Hip Hop heads have really understood how ill this cat is. Just small things like how he speaks in third person on "The Distance" to show the disconnection from himself makes him so far ahead of the rest of the game that it's not even funny.
bpGqBltDlno

GhettoGnom
10-04-2009, 05:19 PM
this is a thread for people who view "rap" music as a part of their personal overall pop culture.


When did poetry turn into pop culture?

main_man
10-04-2009, 07:11 PM
a lot of folks dont view hip hop and more specifically rap music as poetry at all. and also, not all rap is poetry.

ying yang twins and them laffy taffy clowns are not poetry even slightly, but they are considered rap music.

and to single out the first statement is to ignore the point of the post in general. if you start a thread talking about "i think rap lyrics are overrated and boring. and rakim is a boring lyricist." then, chances are, hip hop is not a culture to you. it might be part of your overall pop culture, but it unto itself is not a culture to you personally.

Prolifical ENG
10-04-2009, 08:03 PM
They aren't overrated. In the mainstream its obviously underrated so I assume it's about more hardcore hip-hop fans overrating lyricists.

They need their respect when it's due to set standards in hip-hop. Good genre discussion earlier.

GhettoGnom
10-04-2009, 08:43 PM
and to single out the first statement is to ignore the point of the post in general. if you start a thread talking about "i think rap lyrics are overrated and boring. and rakim is a boring lyricist." then, chances are, hip hop is not a culture to you. it might be part of your overall pop culture, but it unto itself is not a culture to you personally.

I slightly misunderstood you.
But I still don't agree. Rap lyrics is only a small portion of what Hip Hop is. It's like saying that chances are Hip Hop isn't a culture to you because you prefer traditional paintings to throw-ups.

To say Rakim is a boring lyricist and ignore the fields he pionereed and/or took to another level is preposterous for a Hip Hop fan though, we agree on that.

zooruka
10-04-2009, 08:53 PM
yeah a nigga like nas on the message is dope son !



peace be with you !

Clan Destine
10-05-2009, 02:46 AM
this is a thread for people who view "rap" music as a part of their personal overall pop culture.

this is not a thread for people who grew up and respect the HIP HOP culture.

I respect this view, and I admittedly come from the first group of people.

In terms of popular music genres, I really don't care about judging the lyrics of MCs verses others. There's differing levels of quality across all genres, MC's have more restrictions so I respect what they do in terms of 'verse' more.

Rappers compared to poets of ages past is a different matter. I would say there has been no great poet from hip hop (who knows though I haven't heard everybody). There isn't the same depth of theme, play of form with content, and precise diction etc. as there is in great poetry.

However, Hip Hop is simply a different genre with different demands. Could the great poets rhyme over a beat like the rappers of today?? Freestyle?? Have that natural flow??

I would love to hear Shakespeare battle Yeats on a Preemo beat. I would love to clone Robert Frost and raise him as a poor ass mother fucker in Staten with the Wu.

And for that matter, I would like to do the reverse. Take Biggy and put him in Oxford during the 1800's or some shit.

Tommy
10-05-2009, 05:49 AM
Personally, I'd say lyrics within rap are underrated by most people; I've sat back in amazement at some of Nas', Rakim's, Big L's, GZA's and Biggie's verses just for what they say and how they say it. However, like someone above said, you shouldn't only focus on the lyrics, because, let's be fair, who wants to buy an album solely for lyrics? Or who wants to go to a rap show solely to listen to the words? To be a good or great MC you have to have a bit of everything in your arsenal, and decent lyrics alone aren't going to cut it.

Seanuz
10-05-2009, 08:42 AM
I would say there has been no great poet from hip hop (who knows though I haven't heard everybody).

Loved some of the stuff you had to say in ur post.
One guy who i think stands above every other hiphop artist poetically is, strangely enough, Too Poetic.
he writes the kind of verses that can amaze you when you hear how a particular word rhymes with another, and what implication those words have even when you've heard the verse a hundred times and you know the verse off the top of your head.
i love how his verses, particularly on 'the pick, sickle...', manage to be so dense and multi-layered with the rhyme schemes.
anyway theres a really good analysis of his verse from 'dangerous mindz' on the following page
http://floodwatchmusic.com/2007/03/autopsy-of-a-verse-gravediggaz/

angry!
10-05-2009, 09:58 AM
this thread title implies either...

a.) brain defect
b.) a euro square talkin out his ass
c.) a euro square with a brain defect talkin out his ass

hip hop is universal, for every lyricist theres a kid recording adlibs for 16s, cater to your own personal needs and leave it to that!!!

stashlova
10-05-2009, 10:12 AM
Lyricism is my centerpiece when I listen to rap/hip-hop. Thats how I decide what albums I will buy. I understand that good flow, beats, etc. are integral in determining how the overall package is received but to say that those things trump lyrics is the precise reason why hip hop is where it is today. Nowadays you can spew nonsense over an ill beat with a catchy cadence and your given the crown. Its ridiculous. If I was one of those fans I can just download the instrumentals to get what Im looking for.

There's no level of lyrical skill needed to make it big in the rap game and its been like that for some time. There used to be a time when you would get the total package(lyrics, nice beats, catchy hooks etc) but artists bringing that to the table are few and far between.

A lot of the lyricists that are still left feel that regardless of the beat selection or the catchiness of the record that you should feel them based on their lyrical content and thats a huge mistake. They will never turn the game around with that way of thinking...

Tommy
10-05-2009, 10:15 AM
A lot of the lyricists that are still left feel that regardless of the beat selection or the catchiness of the record that you should feel them based on their lyrical content and thats a huge mistake. They will never turn the game around with that way of thinking...

Exactly.

GhettoGnom
10-05-2009, 01:13 PM
Lyricism is my centerpiece when I listen to rap/hip-hop. Thats how I decide what albums I will buy. I understand that good flow, beats, etc. are integral in determining how the overall package is received but to say that those things trump lyrics is the precise reason why hip hop is where it is today.

Whether you like it or not, beats, flow etc. has ALWAYS trumped lyrics in Hip Hop.


There's no level of lyrical skill needed to make it big in the rap game and its been like that for some time. There used to be a time when you would get the total package(lyrics, nice beats, catchy hooks etc) but artists bringing that to the table are few and far between.

I agree with the first part, and that's sad. The "package" isn't that rare though. Listen to Apathy's new album. OB4CL2. Anything Qn5 puts out. Most of what Rhymesayers puts out. The new mainstream generation (J. Cole, LAWS, Blu, Drake & a couple of others) already got more of the total package than people have had in mainstream rap for years. Hip Hop is far from dying, it's just that there's way too few of the Hip Hop heads that turns their passion into support.

g_flex
10-05-2009, 02:10 PM
NaS - I gave you power

Shake's peers could never write these

DR. NICK RIVIERA
10-06-2009, 03:14 AM
^^^^^lol dude, you're taking this the wrong way

Visionz
10-08-2009, 11:16 AM
gea thats a great post homie , this is basically how i feel, i dont get wuts so artistic about the lyrics of rock groups and shit like that it isnt good to me, but shit like that old blues, reggae n stuff thats not bad i like the words of that. I dont see good lyricism with the beatles and those kinds of classic rock groups either.
I'm gonna say you don't know enough about the Beatles then.

such as

"Did she understand it when they said
That a man must break his back to earn
His day of leisure?
Will she still believe it when he's dead?"

^those are hard lyrics lol The structure is different and melody plays a much bigger role but there's quality lyrics in rock and roll and such. or how bout Bob Dylan? There's a reason The Roots cover Masters of War when they play live. The song has the essence of hip hop within it without a doubt.


But on topic with the thread, I agree with the OP in that some out there seem to be lyrical for lyricals sake and forget first and foremost you should be trying to make quality music. Devin the Dude for instance is in no way a real lyrical emcee but his cd's are fuckin classic to me. The honesty in his lyrics, the delivery and personality behind them just makes for great music. It's like he's managed to merge the blues and hip-hop together in a style that's all his own. Put Just Trying to Live and Rip the Jacker next to each other in the ride and I'm gonna play the former rather than the latter about 9 outta 10 times even if Cannibus is a 100x more lyrical.

beautifulrock
10-08-2009, 11:31 AM
I'm gonna say you don't know enough about the Beatles then.

such as

"Did she understand it when they said
That a man must break his back to earn
His day of leisure?
Will she still believe it when he's dead?"

^those are hard lyrics lol The structure is different and melody plays a much bigger role but there's quality lyrics in rock and roll and such. or how bout Bob Dylan? There's a reason The Roots cover Masters of War when they play live. The song has the essence of hip hop within it without a doubt.


But on topic with the thread, I agree with the OP in that some out there seem to be lyrical for lyricals sake and forget first and foremost you should be trying to make quality music. Devin the Dude for instance is in no way a real lyrical emcee but his cd's are fuckin classic to me. The honesty in his lyrics, the delivery and personality behind them just makes for great music. It's like he's managed to merge the blues and hip-hop together in a style that's all his own. Put Just Trying to Live and Rip the Jacker next to each other in the ride and I'm gonna play the former rather than the latter about 9 outta 10 times even if Cannibus is a 100x more lyrical.

Naaaaaaaaa Naaa Naaa NaNa Na Naaaaaaaaaa NaNa Na Naaaaaaaaaa
Hey Jude

GhettoGnom
10-08-2009, 11:51 AM
I'm gonna say you don't know enough about the Beatles then.

such as

"Did she understand it when they said
That a man must break his back to earn
His day of leisure?
Will she still believe it when he's dead?"

^those are hard lyrics lol The structure is different and melody plays a much bigger role but there's quality lyrics in rock and roll and such. or how bout Bob Dylan? There's a reason The Roots cover Masters of War when they play live. The song has the essence of hip hop within it without a doubt.


Bob Dylan's not really what you think of when you say classical rock though.
And most(not all) of the Beatles lyrics are weak, you can't front on that. I remember seeing a McCartney (well, 95% sure it was him) interview in a history of rock & roll documentary where he talked about how he was this big Dylan fan, then one time when they were at the same place, Dylan walked up to them and told them straight up "you got absolutely nothing to say".. He changed the way he wrote after that.

Koolish
10-08-2009, 12:01 PM
Hip Hop invented it's own style of poetry, you can't compare them to other forms of writing because Hip Hop isn't following those forms' rules.

Visionz
10-08-2009, 12:41 PM
Bob Dylan's not really what you think of when you say classical rock though.
And most(not all) of the Beatles lyrics are weak, you can't front on that. I remember seeing a McCartney (well, 95% sure it was him) interview in a history of rock & roll documentary where he talked about how he was this big Dylan fan, then one time when they were at the same place, Dylan walked up to them and told them straight up "you got absolutely nothing to say".. He changed the way he wrote after that.
on sheer lyricism as a whole no other genre comes close to hip-hop I just wouldn't agree that because something is more simple that the wisdom of the words isn't there. I take it Brock was being sarcastic but in the same song

For well you know that it's a fool who plays it cool
By making his world a little colder

I personally think the Beatles mastered simplicity and when its all said and done you've got over a billion records sold.
lyrics wise though they don't have shit on Ghostface :lmao: his verse on Impossible for instance is absolutely brilliant, one of my all-time favorites. Hip-hops unmatched for how cinematic and detailed a picture it can paint in such a short amount of time.

GhettoGnom
10-08-2009, 01:34 PM
on sheer lyricism as a whole no other genre comes close to hip-hop I just wouldn't agree that because something is more simple that the wisdom of the words isn't there. I take it Brock was being sarcastic but in the same song

For well you know that it's a fool who plays it cool
By making his world a little colder

I personally think the Beatles mastered simplicity and when its all said and done you've got over a billion records sold.
lyrics wise though they don't have shit on Ghostface :lmao: his verse on Impossible for instance is absolutely brilliant, one of my all-time favorites. Hip-hops unmatched for how cinematic and detailed a picture it can paint in such a short amount of time.

Yeah, but Beatles didn't sell a billion records because they had great lyrics. A lot of great bands got straight up terrible lyrics, because the focus of a classical rock group is usually (just like Hip Hop the focus can change from track to track, not everything needs to be perfectly written) not lyrics.

I don't think Hip Hop is superior to everything else lyrically though. For me to consider a rapper to be on the same level as Dylan lyrically is RARE. I'm not sure if I think any rapper can touch Nick Cave (get your hands on Murder Ballads if you haven't heard it) when it comes to story-telling.. Rhyming is the only aspect where Hip Hop stands out as extraordinary, imho.

angry!
10-08-2009, 02:41 PM
niggas talking about the beatles... god damn son shut your fucking mouth and regain some focus!!!! pop your little concentration pill and quit squirming you spastic fuck!!!!

see, the thing is, some emcees can be highly "lyrical" in the sense theyre rhyming everything, slant rhyming, etc. but the lyrics are just fluff!!! you gotta be able to deliver your shit with confidence and be saying something!!!!

thats why to me, an emcee is either dope, or theyre not dope!!!! i can pull some white nerd kicking around the hacky sack that rhymes, on some super scientific lyrical miracle spirtual shit, but homie is wack. so is he a lyricist?!? lyricism is just putting the words together, less than half the fight!!!! beanie sigel, kool g rap, these niggas can rhyme forever on some technical powerhouse shit, but its hard!!!!

eminem, yall fucks hate on him cuz hes too pop for your euro sensibilities, but he has the ability to string together amazing rhymes while telling a story or being highly visual and coherent with what hes saying. thats a emcee!!!!

and bob dylan got lyrics, but hes a mush mouthed loser!!!! he prolly said that to paul because he wasnt peeling panties off at the same clip!!!! jealousy woes nigga!!!!!

Visionz
10-08-2009, 03:01 PM
Yeah, but Beatles didn't sell a billion records because they had great lyrics. A lot of great bands got straight up terrible lyrics, because the focus of a classical rock group is usually (just like Hip Hop the focus can change from track to track, not everything needs to be perfectly written) not lyrics.

I don't think Hip Hop is superior to everything else lyrically though. For me to consider a rapper to be on the same level as Dylan lyrically is RARE. I'm not sure if I think any rapper can touch Nick Cave (get your hands on Murder Ballads if you haven't heard it) when it comes to story-telling.. Rhyming is the only aspect where Hip Hop stands out as extraordinary, imho.
there's individual exceptions, Dylan ofcourse, I'll have to do some digging on Nick Cave but as a whole I still stay hip-hop stands alone and its not just in the rhyming but the vividness, the imagery packed in so tightly. Alot has to do with the structure itself but I don't think any rock songs could tell so complete a story in a minute flat.

GhettoGnom
10-08-2009, 06:54 PM
Haha @ angry.

there's individual exceptions, Dylan ofcourse, I'll have to do some digging on Nick Cave but as a whole I still stay hip-hop stands alone and its not just in the rhyming but the vividness, the imagery packed in so tightly. Alot has to do with the structure itself but I don't think any rock songs could tell so complete a story in a minute flat.

I kind of agree, but you also gotta take into consideration that rappers says a lot more than other singers do in a certain amount of time. A rapper can have 18 syllables in a bar, a singer never does that.

And yeah, Nick Cave is excellent at telling dark stories, too bad nearly all of his songs gets taken off youtube except weaker live versions :( But get your hands on Murder Ballads or pm me if you can't find it, one of my all time favorite albums and his stories is insane :)

GhettoGnom
10-09-2009, 11:18 AM
Funny story, I'm watching a documentary(took a short break to write this :P) on the album (Murder Ballads) right now, and they're talking about Stagger Lee. They were having a party in a poolroom and were listening to Scarface - The Diary("fantastic record".. haha, I'm surprised) when Nick found out he wanted another track and told the bassist to give him a bassline, and that was it.. Haha

edit- Now Nick Cave's discussing the lyrics and actually specifically compares it to rap.. Those who enjoy the album should really watch this :)
http://www.mininova.org/tor/1834533

food for thought
10-09-2009, 12:36 PM
how many genre's got brothers writing two or three 16+ bars of lyricism and poetry?


Rap lyrisicits are UNDERrated.

thats my word.

GhettoGnom
10-09-2009, 01:36 PM
^^I don't really see the connection...

food for thought
10-09-2009, 05:07 PM
connection between what, european?

GhettoGnom
10-09-2009, 05:19 PM
how many genre's got brothers writing two or three 16+ bars of lyricism and poetry?
and
Rap lyrisicits are UNDERrated.

Writing two or three 16+ bars of lyricism and poetry isn't a feat in itself.

Edgar Erebus
10-10-2009, 10:21 AM
Dylan is the dude that ruined hip-hop for me. I used to love rap lyricism (having overcome my impressionist poetry fanaticism from junior high days) and I was actually making myself text compilations of rap lyrics, but once I heard "Like a Rolling Stone" it was all over. NO RAP SONG EVER CAN LYRICALLY TOUCH THAT (yeah neg rep me). And he has a ton of songs that are lyrically at least on the same level.

Since then I started paying more attention to beats and delivery and my infatuation with the whole game splashed down a huge lot. Now I listen to rap just a bit more than any other genre of music (the songs I listen to when digging for samples don't count), and I also developed a rather strange taste compared to what is expected from a normal rap fan. (For example, I think that Death Certificate is the best rap album of all time. Neg rep me again.)

Blame it on the meds if you like.

Koolish
10-10-2009, 05:04 PM
imo, no art form is superior to another.

so to me, bob dylan and rakim are equals. rakim couldn't write what dylan writes, dylan couldn't write what rakim writes.