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TSA
10-22-2009, 08:25 AM
did you know that an overdose a lot of the times isn't cause you took too many drugs, but cause of a change of environment or routine from your normal way of taking the drug

there was a woman who has to tap 2 times to find a vien usually until 1 day she found one right way. She injected heroin and died on the normal dose she usually takes cause the routine was ruined.

and your alchohol tolerance increases when you drink at places your used to drinking or when your around ppl you're used to drinking with

and to kill a lot of addictions you have to seperate a person from the environment that they engage in the addictive behavior in


some people only smoke CIGZ when they drink, and so forth

do you fags have any conditioned stimulus?

when im around a computer i suddenly wanna check wucorp, when im not around one i don't care.

i also get an erection everytime my gf is coming over, not cause its erotic EVERY TIME but cause, yeah.

also when i was around my friends i wanted to hit on girls and get numbers and shit, when i wasn't with them i didn't care. not cause i was trying to fit in either, i just truly didn't care.

hectis
10-22-2009, 08:58 AM
when im around a computer i suddenly wanna check wucorp, when im not around one i don't care. .

hahaha same

KERZO
10-22-2009, 09:05 AM
yeah, everytime i listen to the wu i wanna blaze a purp haze blunt..EVERY DAMN TIME!!

Also could you O.D from masturbation, has that question ever been fully evaluated?

sometime's i get drunk easily when im somewhere new but at my mates i can drink all night and be fine so i see what ya mean tisha.

SID
10-22-2009, 09:36 AM
did you know that an overdose a lot of the times isn't cause you took too many drugs, but cause of a change of environment or routine from your normal way of taking the drug




Definetly, its more true with pyschadelic drugs but i could see it effecting other drugs aswell, like if you blaze a joint in a unfamiliar or unfreidnly enviroment you might go paranoid and anxious which if not treated could develop like a massive snowball collecting more snow as it rolls down the mountain, the same with LSD.

It's all about your mindset and the setting.

food for thought
10-22-2009, 09:54 AM
when im walking to class in the morning, i like to smoke a ciggerette.

when im done with classes, i like to get blunted.

when im in my room, i like to bump music. loud.

shit like that.

this is stupid.

TSA
10-22-2009, 10:47 AM
k.


Yeah, when your somewhere unfamiliar to your normal drug using spot you get higher.

its acutally harder to get drunk at a party or bar then anywhere else.
a way i realized this was in highschool. when i played a sport and went to practice i was able to do shit at practice i didn't have the endurance to do anywhere else.

like at practice i would run around a block 4 times and not have to stop and walk, elsewhere i do 2 without stopping and im in agonizing pain.



oh, also if you drink coffee in the morning and watch the news, after a while you can just watch the news at the same time same place and it will give you the same effect as drinking coffee

some weed smokers release dopamine just smelling weed or being around ppl they smoke with.

im going to start training myself with this shit, i'll drink coffee and do something additional before class then after a while i'll just catch the smell of coffee and do the same thing at the same time to get the CS to keep me awake while saving money.


i have a theory that one of the reasons rape/humiliation porn is so popular in japan is cause asian women make a faces that look like they're not enjoying sex when they're having sex a lot. so after a while if your making the same face when fucking as you would make when getting a turd rubbed on your forehead with tennis racket, rubbing a turd on a girls forehead with a tennis racket becomes sexually arousing.


there was a test in the us that showed that men that went through puberty in the reagan era are aroused more by seening underwear, just underwear, then men that were born after cause their first exposure to pornography or most common exposure at that age was often their mothers underwear catalogs.


the same in japan, men acutally pay women for their panties cause when they were going to school the most they would see from a girl was their panties under their school dresses, after a while panties started turning them on so now japanese school girls can make a lot of money just selling old faggots their underwear.

shit is horde.

5hundred&one
10-22-2009, 11:36 AM
this shit is very true. I studied about drugs extensively a few years ago and came to some pretty interesting conclusions. drugs alter the mind, so of course your sub-conscious can have a huge effect on your high, tolerance and your susceptibility to overdose. it's why a lot of people will tell you not to trip on a heavy psychedelic in an uncomfortable situation.

one time, I made the mistake of smoking salvia with my friend who's a huge hardcore (music) fan and I hadn't been to his place many times and it was just me him and his girl, who I didn't know too well at the time. all this and he had some frantic music playing in the background, which I wasn't feelin too much. That was the only bad trip I've ever had; as soon as I exhaled I lost all consciousness of where I was and had some pretty intense visuals and feelings of nostalgia like your life flashing before your eyes when you die or something.

every time I tried it in a familiar environment, it was never nearly as bad. for that reason, any time I ever tried a new drug after it, I never followed the stereotype of 'what you're supposed to do' on that drug and just did what I normally do. I found that when you do it that way, you get a much more profound idea of how the drug effects you individually, where as if you do a bunch of extra shit to try and enhance the drug, you can never tell which aspects are the drug itself and which ones are your brain effecting (or dirtying as some people say) the experience.

all in all, it's an example of the chaos theory applied to your mind. a small variation can sometimes lead to devastating or amazing results. my opinion on hard drugs is that if people were actually smart and educated on what they were doing, they wouldn't become addicted/overdose. when an overdose happens, it's simply a mechanism in your brain shutting down or working erratically. either way, it's still brought on by a chain reaction in your brain, which can not only be triggered by the drug itself, but anything your brain calculates and reacts to. the same way startling a person can give them a heart attack.

PALEHORSE
10-22-2009, 12:05 PM
another interesting fact. more people die from pharmaceutical drugs ever year then all illegal street drugs combined. and no one has ever dies from marijuana

P-Noid Brown
10-22-2009, 12:11 PM
This is an interesting fact

beautifulrock
10-22-2009, 12:11 PM
did you know that an overdose a lot of the times isn't cause you took too many drugs, but cause of a change of environment or routine from your normal way of taking the drug

there was a woman who has to tap 2 times to find a vien usually until 1 day she found one right way. She injected heroin and died on the normal dose she usually takes cause the routine was ruined.

and your alchohol tolerance increases when you drink at places your used to drinking or when your around ppl you're used to drinking with

and to kill a lot of addictions you have to seperate a person from the environment that they engage in the addictive behavior in


some people only smoke CIGZ when they drink, and so forth

do you fags have any conditioned stimulus?

when im around a computer i suddenly wanna check wucorp, when im not around one i don't care.

i also get an erection everytime my gf is coming over, not cause its erotic EVERY TIME but cause, yeah.

also when i was around my friends i wanted to hit on girls and get numbers and shit, when i wasn't with them i didn't care. not cause i was trying to fit in either, i just truly didn't care.
I feel like expressing my feeling. Your grammar skills are worse than Drunken Monk. This gives you no credibility at all. Stop making threads like this where you pretend to be smart, but can't form a coherent thought. It's embarrassing. I know you aren't personally embarrassed because you have the social skills of Rain Man, but trust me, people are laughing at you. Yes, at you, not with.

Longbongcilvaringz
10-22-2009, 12:15 PM
I find that difficult to accept overdosing on heroin based on environmental factors.

I agree that environment can have affect the type of high you experience, but OD'ing is a result of toxicity (either toxic levels of the heroin itself, toxic levels of contaminants, or toxicity as the result of a reaction caused by a combination of substances having a cumulative effect).

Additionally, the majority of heroin overdoses occur an hour of more after the last injection, making it implausible that a change in routine would alter the occurrence of an overdose at all.

More likely, due to the variation in quality of heroin, she took more than she had previously (or there were contaminants involved).

As SID said, with psychedelics (even mild psychedelics like weed) environment can have noticeable effect on your high.

It doesn't change the toxicity of the substance though.

5hundred&one
10-22-2009, 12:18 PM
another interesting fact. more people die from pharmaceutical drugs ever year then all illegal street drugs combined. and no one has ever dies from marijuana

and they've even put out statements trying to make people think that opioid pain killers are the devil because they could be responsible for an increase in overdoses, but aspirin is still killing more people than any other drug.

Longbongcilvaringz
10-22-2009, 12:20 PM
another interesting fact. more people die from pharmaceutical drugs ever year then all illegal street drugs combined. and no one has ever dies from marijuana

Did you just buy a copy of Black Sunday or some shit?

Ghost In The 'Lac
10-22-2009, 12:35 PM
Nigga wtf

this is on another level of dumbass shit.

yes, hallucinagenic drugs (which i dont even think you were talking about),. the environment plays a major role in what happens, but as for everything else and overdosing because of envorons, thats just dumb, its because youve poisoned your body to the 8th degree.

5hundred&one
10-22-2009, 12:37 PM
@ Sean Bateman

You're right, but I think there's a significant chance of facilitating an overdose based on a variety of factors. Let me ask you this; if a combination of drugs can have a cumulative effect and a heroin dose can become fatal if combined with, cocaine let's say, a very different drug that effects the body in a totally different way, then couldn't the same be true for a drug and a non-drug induced reaction in the brain? because if speedballing with otherwise safe cocaine and heroin doses can kill a person, then you can't blame an overdose entirely on the toxicity of either drug.

We all know that your bodily functions start with signals sent from the brain. Nausea by seeing something that you find repulsive, your heart beating faster by watching a fast paced movie or being in a confrontation, it's all rooted in the way your brain reacts to what you see, hear, smell, etc. Having an irregular heartbeat is often caused by a rush of chemicals in your brain, not entirely different from the way a drug effects your mind/body. So even if the drug is the major culprit, if a person has a traumatizing experience right after taking a a huge dose of a drug that normally wouldn't kill them, but causes their heartbeat to slow-down/speed up, could that combination not kill a person the same way combining drugs could?

Ghost In The 'Lac
10-22-2009, 12:44 PM
@ Sean Bateman

You're right, but I think there's a significant chance of facilitating an overdose based on a variety of factors. Let me ask you this; if a combination of drugs can have a cumulative effect and a heroin dose can become fatal if combined with, cocaine let's say, a very different drug that effects the body in a totally different way, then couldn't the same be true for a drug and a non-drug induced reaction in the brain? because if speedballing with otherwise safe cocaine and heroin doses can kill a person, then you can't blame an overdose entirely on the toxicity of either drug.

We all know that your bodily functions start with signals sent from the brain. Nausea by seeing something that you find repulsive, your heart beating faster by watching a fast paced movie or being in a confrontation, it's all rooted in the way your brain reacts to what you see, hear, smell, etc. Having an irregular heartbeat is often caused by a rush of chemicals in your brain, not entirely different from the way a drug effects your mind/body. So even if the drug is the major culprit, if a person has a traumatizing experience right after taking a a huge dose of a drug that normally wouldn't kill them, but causes their heartbeat to slow-down/speed up, could that combination not kill a person the same way combining drugs could?


I know this wasnt aimed at me, but dawg, wtf, that was the biggest non coherant wandering aimless mess of a rant ive ever read. what are you even trying to say. Slow down, your not making any point or sense.

Chemical reactions nigga, look them up or something lol.

TSA
10-22-2009, 01:07 PM
I find that difficult to accept overdosing on heroin based on environmental factors.

I agree that environment can have affect the type of high you experience, but OD'ing is a result of toxicity (either toxic levels of the heroin itself, toxic levels of contaminants, or toxicity as the result of a reaction caused by a combination of substances having a cumulative effect).

Additionally, the majority of heroin overdoses occur an hour of more after the last injection, making it implausible that a change in routine would alter the occurrence of an overdose at all.

More likely, due to the variation in quality of heroin, she took more than she had previously (or there were contaminants involved).

As SID said, with psychedelics (even mild psychedelics like weed) environment can have noticeable effect on your high.

It doesn't change the toxicity of the substance though.

you also have to take in consideration that you body has to be prepared for the intake of drugs before its actually administered. things in your body actually adjust and chance before you're about to do something that will require extraordinary conditions like run, have sex or take drugs.

when your stimulus is changed you kinda catch your body off guard and the effects of the drug are stronger.

like when you get off a coach and walk up stairs then suddenly you're winded and breathing hard. it's cause your body wasn't ready to do that and suddenly the effects of walking up the stairs are stronger.

5hundred&one
10-22-2009, 01:23 PM
the simple version for euro-wiggers that can't read big words: if a safe dose of two different drugs can be combined and kill a person, then why can't a safe dose of one of the two drugs be combined with a non-drug related occurrence and have the same results?

speedballing is an important example. it's a combination of the effects the two drugs have on your body that kills you, not the toxicity of either. explain to me why a panic attack and a high cocaine dose couldn't facilitate an overdose. and then understand that the same concept can be applied on a subconscious level. it could even encompass everything from mood to your surroundings to something as small and insignificant as the music you listen to (proven to effect very relevant things to certain drug overdoses such as your heart rate) etc.

Not that that's definitely the case, but my guess is that nobody here knows enough about the human brain to rule out the possibility, that's all I'm saying.

Ghost In The 'Lac
10-22-2009, 01:26 PM
if a safe dose of two different drugs can be combined and kill a person, then why can't a safe dose of one of the two drugs be combined with a non-drug related occurrence and have the same results?



I still have absolutely no idea what your are trying to say. Im not just saying this, I really dont. Why are you relating combing 2 drugs, with not combining 2 drugs. Or something.

Longbongcilvaringz
10-22-2009, 01:29 PM
@ Sean Bateman

You're right, but I think there's a significant chance of facilitating an overdose based on a variety of factors. Let me ask you this; if a combination of drugs can have a cumulative effect and a heroin dose can become fatal if combined with, cocaine let's say, a very different drug that effects the body in a totally different way, then couldn't the same be true for a drug and a non-drug induced reaction in the brain? because if speedballing with otherwise safe cocaine and heroin doses can kill a person, then you can't blame an overdose entirely on the toxicity of either drug.

We all know that your bodily functions start with signals sent from the brain. Nausea by seeing something that you find repulsive, your heart beating faster by watching a fast paced movie or being in a confrontation, it's all rooted in the way your brain reacts to what you see, hear, smell, etc. Having an irregular heartbeat is often caused by a rush of chemicals in your brain, not entirely different from the way a drug effects your mind/body. So even if the drug is the major culprit, if a person has a traumatizing experience right after taking a a huge dose of a drug that normally wouldn't kill them, but causes their heartbeat to slow-down/speed up, could that combination not kill a person the same way combining drugs could?

You're right about speedballing, it is far more dangerous than taking either substance in isolation of the other. However, the danger (mostly) comes from a chemical reaction which cannot be heightened of lessened mentally.

Speedballing is dangerous in a number of ways, most notably in that the Coke speeds your heart rate (as usual) but (as usual) it only last for minutes, the heroin then kicks in a slows the heart rate. The sudden change in heart rate greatly increases the risk of overdose (and i think i should clarify, because a lot of people seem to think an overdose means someone suddenly drops dead. This is i guess an image perpetuated by the media in some respect, but is far from the truth. Overdosing can mean a number of things, but as i said generally it involves respiratory complications) as the heroin has a greater impact than it normally would.

It's similar to mixing alcohol and certain benzos, there is an amplification both the mental and more importantly the physical effects of each substance. You see a lot of people mention that benzos "potentiate" alcohol or visa verse and it's an appropriate description.

I'm not ruling out the possibility that your heart rate and respiratory function could be effected by your environment, i just can't see this ever contributing to overdose. It pretty much impossible to study, but to me it seems highly implausible.

you also have to take in consideration that you body has to be prepared for the intake of drugs before its actually administered. things in your body actually adjust and chance before you're about to do something that will require extraordinary conditions like run, have sex or take drugs.

when your stimulus is changed you kinda catch your body off guard and the effects of the drug are stronger.

like when you get off a coach and walk up stairs then suddenly you're winded and breathing hard. it's cause your body wasn't ready to do that and suddenly the effects of walking up the stairs are stronger.

I agree that environment can change the high you get, even for non hallucinogenic substances.

But i can't see how it would have any impact of actually over dosing, in a chemical sense.

Most over doses manifest in either cardiac arrest or more commonly respiratory problems. Panic could possible contribute to the rapidity of such effects, i can't see how it could actually effect whether they occur or don't occur though.

As i said previously it is almost impossible to study, but as there is no evidence and only tenuous logic behind such a theory, i don't think it's really worth espousing.

5hundred&one
10-22-2009, 01:33 PM
I still have absolutely no idea what your are trying to say. Im not just saying this, I really dont. Why are you relating combing 2 drugs, with not combining 2 drugs. Or something.

because Bateman suggested that the toxicity of a drug is what's responsible for an overdose, when speedballing might give an example that suggests otherwise. the speedball effect is created when a depressant slows your heart down and a stimulant speeds it up, a dangerous combination. take a non-drug related example of something that speeds up your heart rate and combine it with a high heroin dose that slows your heart down and explain to me why it couldn't have the same effect. if it could, then it would mean your surroundings could raise or lower your chances of an overdose kind of like the way your surroundings can result in a good or a bad trip, in the case of psychedelics. Like I said, it's a stretch, but I don't think it's impossible.

5hundred&one
10-22-2009, 01:40 PM
As i said previously it is almost impossible to study, but as there is no evidence and only tenuous logic behind such a theory, i don't think it's really worth espousing.

Perhaps, but needless to say your environment, your mood and your subconscious can all have profound effects on the way you experience psychoactive drugs, from caffeine to THC to LSD to heroin and so on. I'll at least say that much is for certain.

Longbongcilvaringz
10-22-2009, 01:44 PM
the simple version for euro-wiggers that can't read big words: if a safe dose of two different drugs can be combined and kill a person, then why can't a safe dose of one of the two drugs be combined with a non-drug related occurrence and have the same results?

speedballing is an important example. it's a combination of the effects the two drugs have on your body that kills you, not the toxicity of either. explain to me why a panic attack and a high cocaine dose couldn't facilitate an overdose. and then understand that the same concept can be applied on a subconscious level. it could even encompass everything from mood to your surroundings to something as small and insignificant as the music you listen to (proven to effect very relevant things to certain drug overdoses such as your heart rate) etc.

Not that that's definitely the case, but my guess is that nobody here knows enough about the human brain to rule out the possibility, that's all I'm saying.

I didn't say it couldn't, i said there is no reason to think that it could.

Admittedly, there isn't a great deal of research into the neurobiological effects of the combination (or of any drug really).

But it is known that speedballing produces a pharmacological effect which is separate from the effects of heroin or cocaine by themselves. It is

It's not a matter of simply saying "panic can increase your heart rate, so this suggests causation between panic and the likelihood of heroin overdose".

The magnitude of the change in cardiovascular activity as the result of consuming either heroin or cocaine (or any other stimulant or depressant) isn't comparable to panic.

Ghost In The 'Lac
10-22-2009, 01:44 PM
because Bateman suggested that the toxicity of a drug is what's responsible for an overdose, when speedballing might give an example that suggests otherwise. the speedball effect is created when a depressant slows your heart down and a stimulant speeds it up, a dangerous combination. take a non-drug related example of something that speeds up your heart rate and combine it with a high heroin dose that slows your heart down and explain to me why it couldn't have the same effect. if it could, then it would mean your surroundings could raise or lower your chances of an overdose kind of like the way your surroundings can result in a good or a bad trip, in the case of psychedelics. Like I said, it's a stretch, but I don't think it's impossible.

Ahh, I get you now.

Well, id say the speedballing thing is probably down to a chemical reaction anyway, a chemical reaction that stimulates different effects on your body at the same time.

So i think to say environment as the "2nd drug" it would have to be a pretty fucking intense environment.

Longbongcilvaringz
10-22-2009, 01:49 PM
because Bateman suggested that the toxicity of a drug is what's responsible for an overdose, when speedballing might give an example that suggests otherwise. the speedball effect is created when a depressant slows your heart down and a stimulant speeds it up, a dangerous combination. take a non-drug related example of something that speeds up your heart rate and combine it with a high heroin dose that slows your heart down and explain to me why it couldn't have the same effect. if it could, then it would mean your surroundings could raise or lower your chances of an overdose kind of like the way your surroundings can result in a good or a bad trip, in the case of psychedelics. Like I said, it's a stretch, but I don't think it's impossible.

But that is toxicity.

In combination they produce a toxic effect.

It is the specific pharmacological effect of the combination which causes this. There is no evidence that suggest simply a heightened heart rate could result in the same effect with the equivalent magnitude.

5hundred&one
10-22-2009, 02:00 PM
hmm, I'll admit that I'm not that well learned on the subject of combining drugs, I'm not going to argue.

but the premise still seems like a sound one to me. I feel like the body and mind can sometimes function chaotically, especially when using powerful mind altering substances. Maybe a drug overdose will happen if it's going to happen and nothing can make a person more susceptible. Or maybe on the far extreme, something as insignificant as the what you had to eat, or the way you blink your eyes can be the deciding factor in whether you have a fatal overdose or a really intense, non-fatal experience. An interesting question; how would you ever study such a thing?

Longbongcilvaringz
10-22-2009, 02:15 PM
Yeah, the same question occurred to me.

Maybe you administer heroin or cocaine (they actually use agonists) to a subject after strenuous exercise or conversely directly after sleep. Or you induce fear and panic etc. Sounds pretty crude though.

I actually remember reading some stuff about speedballing when i did psychology in first year, there isn't much research on the combination at all. Research is more focused on substances that decrease the instances of speedballing in subjects (monkeys, mouse etc).

I don't think there is much encouragement to study that kind of thing really, it seems to be more or less focused on how to occlude the effects of substances or counteract dependency in subjects.

I might have a look on the universities journal database for some stuff on it, but i doubt much has changed in the last few years.

I think i've read more drug literature than the nonsense politics and finance journals i should probably have been looking at.

Longbongcilvaringz
10-22-2009, 02:18 PM
Additionally, reading all that shit really opens your eyes to how distant the academic community is from people who actually take drugs (at least now).

Some of the shit that crops up in journals (particularly about weed) would make anyone who has smoked scratch their heads.

5hundred&one
10-22-2009, 03:43 PM
^ word, the same could be said for a lot of well-known drugs, experience is the best teacher they say. Shulgin's books are the definitive work on psychedelics, at least. And that probably has a lot to do with the fact that he experiments on himself (and his wife) before drawing conclusions. Unfortunately, I don't think there are any great minds mixing coke and heroin who are writing or studying about it.

JerseyIronman
10-22-2009, 07:50 PM
and your alchohol tolerance increases when you drink at places your used to drinking or when your around ppl you're used to drinking with

Where did you hear about this? or is this a personal hypothesis cuz i think its definitely true.

When I have a beer at home by myself I always feel its affects almost immediately compared to where im in a social situation, drinking with friends, I can have several drinks and feel like im not even buzzed.

I think its because of two main reasons:

1. As humans living in a drinking society we learn to master "social drinking". We can train our selves to drink alot of alcohol and be sociable instead of acting like a jack ass or falling asleep.

2. If your drinking in less social environment, lets say your by your self, theres not that added stimulus of social interaction. Since alcohol is a depressent you just get more tired and drunk quickly as your not really doing anything stimulating or social.

I think this is why whenever i drink at home by myself i usually only have like 2 beers then get tired and feel like ive had enough. which is a good thing.

When i got out and drink with my friends i could drink like 15 drinks over the course of like 4 hours and not blackout or throw up. its weird.

TSA
10-23-2009, 12:29 AM
You're right about speedballing, it is far more dangerous than taking either substance in isolation of the other. However, the danger (mostly) comes from a chemical reaction which cannot be heightened of lessened mentally.

Speedballing is dangerous in a number of ways, most notably in that the Coke speeds your heart rate (as usual) but (as usual) it only last for minutes, the heroin then kicks in a slows the heart rate. The sudden change in heart rate greatly increases the risk of overdose (and i think i should clarify, because a lot of people seem to think an overdose means someone suddenly drops dead. This is i guess an image perpetuated by the media in some respect, but is far from the truth. Overdosing can mean a number of things, but as i said generally it involves respiratory complications) as the heroin has a greater impact than it normally would.

It's similar to mixing alcohol and certain benzos, there is an amplification both the mental and more importantly the physical effects of each substance. You see a lot of people mention that benzos "potentiate" alcohol or visa verse and it's an appropriate description.

I'm not ruling out the possibility that your heart rate and respiratory function could be effected by your environment, i just can't see this ever contributing to overdose. It pretty much impossible to study, but to me it seems highly implausible.



I agree that environment can change the high you get, even for non hallucinogenic substances.

But i can't see how it would have any impact of actually over dosing, in a chemical sense.

Most over doses manifest in either cardiac arrest or more commonly respiratory problems. Panic could possible contribute to the rapidity of such effects, i can't see how it could actually effect whether they occur or don't occur though.

As i said previously it is almost impossible to study, but as there is no evidence and only tenuous logic behind such a theory, i don't think it's really worth espousing.
it effects overdosing cause before drug use your body changes to adjust to the expected drug intake, same with alcohol. If you take the drug prior to your body preparing you will have a greater high and more complications including overdose, and im actually directly quoting an experiment conducted of rats, i will post it and the human overdose that came from conditioned stimulus that im citing as soon as my girl stops getting mad for no reason.