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Visionz
01-13-2010, 11:47 PM
If I present a lie to someone who believes me, they will go tell the lie believing it to be true.....and then that person goes and tells someone else this "truth" that is really a lie until the lie itself becomes perceived truth.

this is how we get our current marijuana policies
this is how we get 33% of all babies being born through c-sections

amd to think that these things unfolded from lies that started being told in the early 1900's.


There's sure to be a lot more out there.

How much more "common knowledge" is really just commonly repeated lies?

spiggity_ace
01-13-2010, 11:55 PM
nice post, wut u mean on the c section thing tho

Visionz
01-14-2010, 08:55 AM
nice post, wut u mean on the c section thing tho

with the flood of immigrants coming through Ellis island, there was a smear campaign by hospitals against mid-wives painting them as decrepid, witchcraft-practicing hags.
It effectivley took mid-wives out of the birthing process here in America, leaving it in the hands of male doctors all by themselves which in turn led to a lot of strange practices. Women chained to beds, blind-folded, etc

We still haven't recovered up to this point. 1 in 3 pregancies in America end in c-section which is simply unparalleled here on planet earth.

LORD NOSE
01-14-2010, 10:17 AM
it would have to go back to just doing what is needed for us to do to live on this planet

when we do this, there is no room for the lies -

THE MASON
01-14-2010, 11:17 AM
this also happens with stuff that goes through the "grapevine". one person passes a message or thought to someone and they change an aspect, eventually it has changed minds so many times that the true meaning has changed as well as the original statement.

imo, its because people like to hear what appeases them, this is not the case for everyone though. this is how a lot of conspiracy theaories manifest. its all driven by fear imo

Visionz
01-14-2010, 11:58 AM
fear is a common factor is getting it all started

with weed, it was mexicans that were going to rape your women. That dumb shit like that circulates isn't so surprising, the fact let we let dumb shit dictate public policy is.

THE MASON
01-14-2010, 01:18 PM
When the mind has once begun to yield to the weakness of superstition, trifles impress it with the force of conviction. - Ann Radcliffe

Visionz
01-15-2010, 02:54 AM
another thing, what better tool for fear-mongering than hell itself? It doesn't need proof of existence basically becoming the boogie man for grown ups. And if it's actual and eternal then it logically makes zero sense. And if it makes zero sense to such a lowly life as myself, it certainly can't make sense to a Being that creates such profoundly amazing things as the universe as we know it.

Prince Rai
01-16-2010, 04:26 AM
there are several tools to make the false, biased, and ignorant more factual and real. one of them, as correctly mentioned is fear.

"if you don't do this, this "bad" thing will happen to you".

most people don't have time to reflect and analyse so they are prone to doing what was said as they want to protect themselves and their families.

and it is true, if you can repeat a lie with much authority, people will see it as truth and delete anything that negates that lie. >> Galileo ie

prof zooruka
01-16-2010, 04:59 AM
I was born c-section.


Nice thread though visionz...although I would have to disagree about the hell part.





peace be with you !

Prince Rai
01-16-2010, 05:23 AM
although I would have to disagree about the hell part.





peace be with you !

fair enough, but it is not easy to prove its existence in the form explained in the Bible outside the language of religious scriptures.

Peace

Face of the Golden Falcon
01-16-2010, 05:45 AM
^
It's existence "as explained in the bible" isn't even in the bible. If that makes any sense.

What I'm saying is the common idea of Hell (i.e eternal place of the damned filled with fire and brimstone) isn't even presented in the bible. It's a total fabrication out of the minds of power hungry men.

HETEPU

Urban_Journalz
01-16-2010, 08:41 PM
How much more "common knowledge" is really just commonly repeated lies?

"One man, one vote."
"Everything you see in the movies is fantasy."
"Your Government has your best interest at heart."
"Hip-Hop is dead."
"We're alone in the Universe."
"9-11 was the work of religious extremists."
"There's no cure for........"
"2Pac is still alive."
"Elvis is still alive."
"Marijuana doesn't harm you."
"Columbus discovered America."

LORD NOSE
01-17-2010, 12:26 AM
the worst cliches are the religious ones


annoying

THE MASON
01-17-2010, 12:57 PM
^
It's existence "as explained in the bible" isn't even in the bible. If that makes any sense.

What I'm saying is the common idea of Hell (i.e eternal place of the damned filled with fire and brimstone) isn't even presented in the bible. It's a total fabrication out of the minds of power hungry men.

HETEPU

I think we get these ideas of hell from writers like Dante and John Milton and there books "Inferno" and "Paradise Lost"

THE MASON
01-17-2010, 01:08 PM
Charles Peirce, who is an American pragmatist said there are four methods of coming to truths, in people:

Method of Tenacity - to unrelentlessy believe something, regardless of evidence
Method of Authority - to be told what is true and follow that in fear of persecution
Method of a Priori/Reason - metaphysical belief that employs reasoning
Method of Science - using the scientific method

what you think?

Urban_Journalz
01-17-2010, 02:54 PM
^^^I think he's got an excellent point. The first and fourth apply to most people in the world today.

THE MASON
01-18-2010, 10:35 AM
the only one i disagree with is the a priori method. it can only apply to the field of metaphysics and not everyone thinks on that level day to day.

Cee Oh Vee
01-18-2010, 11:17 AM
And if it's actual and eternal then it logically makes zero sense.

How did you reach that conclusion?

Visionz
01-18-2010, 02:45 PM
How did you reach that conclusion?
through my own reasoning. If hell is eternal then there's zero chance of redemption. If there's no chance for redemption then what's the point? Punishment that last longer than a star shines doesn't seem merciful and compassionate, it seems sadistic.

LORD NOSE
01-18-2010, 03:01 PM
echo that ^^

Uncle Steezo
01-18-2010, 05:49 PM
The biggest lie i can think of is the word "IMPOSSIBLE".
"CAN'T" comes in a close 2nd.

Urban_Journalz
01-19-2010, 11:37 AM
through my own reasoning. If hell is eternal then there's zero chance of redemption. If there's no chance for redemption then what's the point? Punishment that last longer than a star shines doesn't seem merciful and compassionate, it seems sadistic.

Most people don't know this, but Hell is only everlasting for those who have made a lifetime of sin, lies and hypocracy thier way of being. There are those who will be brought out and admitted into Paradise after being purged of their stain. All who go won't stay forever and all who go won't be brought out after a certain point either. It all depends on what you did. What goes around comes around. Here or There.

Visionz
01-19-2010, 09:35 PM
Most people don't know this, but Hell is only everlasting for those who have made a lifetime of sin, lies and hypocracy thier way of being. There are those who will be brought out and admitted into Paradise after being purged of their stain. All who go won't stay forever and all who go won't be brought out after a certain point either. It all depends on what you did. What goes around comes around. Here or There.

the idea of hell alone doesn't bother me so much as hell with no chance for redemption so I'm ok with what you're saying here.

prof zooruka
01-19-2010, 09:58 PM
the idea of hell alone doesn't bother me so much as hell with no chance for redemption so I'm ok with what you're saying here.


ummm... that is what life is for visionz !!!!!!!....according to God we have all sinned and deserve eternal punishment, but through the scriptures (the bible only) and the redemptive work of his son Jesus Christ God has given us the chance to escape that punishment, by conducting ouselves in the proper way in our earthly life also add to that prayer and repentance... those who do not do those things in life , and continue to do the wrong thing, will be punished by God at the judgement and be sent to hell....I always like the big pun joint beware...the chorus can be applied to all humans when it says " I gave you fair warning beware"...I love that because it`s true of God he has given us plenty of warning about what is to come, now it`s up to you if you heed the warning or not.


With that said God has said:

1 timothy 2-3"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


Remember hell is really only meant for the devil and his angels...but unfortunately some people will have to go there aswell.


matthew 25:41-"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels".


Oh.p.s......whoever said people get outta hell is talking jibberish, nobody who goes there gets out...Im guessing that idea is a muslim perspective.

:nonono:

peace be with you !

THE MASON
01-19-2010, 11:13 PM
no, not a Muslim perspective. that idea seems like a Dantean idea of Hell.

and what yyou say prof would only apply to those following your beliefs. for the rest of us, we are safe from your eternal damnation

prof zooruka
01-20-2010, 02:34 AM
and what yyou say prof would only apply to those following your beliefs. for the rest of us, we are safe from your eternal damnation


Tell me that when you are there on judgement day.


peace be with you !

Mumm Ra
01-20-2010, 07:36 AM
and what yyou say prof would only apply to those following your beliefs. for the rest of us, we are safe from your eternal damnation
for this I am glad

WARPATH
01-20-2010, 10:39 AM
If I present a lie to someone who believes me, they will go tell the lie believing it to be true.....and then that person goes and tells someone else this "truth" that is really a lie until the lie itself becomes perceived truth.

this is how we get our current marijuana policies
this is how we get 33% of all babies being born through c-sections

amd to think that these things unfolded from lies that started being told in the early 1900's.


There's sure to be a lot more out there.

How much more "common knowledge" is really just commonly repeated lies?

Some lies are cleverly hidden as science.

Visionz
01-20-2010, 03:14 PM
ummm... that is what life is for visionz !!!!!!!....according to God we have all sinned and deserve eternal punishment, but through the scriptures (the bible only) and the redemptive work of his son Jesus Christ God has given us the chance to escape that punishment, by conducting ouselves in the proper way in our earthly life also add to that prayer and repentance... those who do not do those things in life , and continue to do the wrong thing, will be punished by God at the judgement and be sent to hell....I always like the big pun joint beware...the chorus can be applied to all humans when it says " I gave you fair warning beware"...I love that because it`s true of God he has given us plenty of warning about what is to come, now it`s up to you if you heed the warning or not.


With that said God has said:

1 timothy 2-3"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


Remember hell is really only meant for the devil and his angels...but unfortunately some people will have to go there aswell.


matthew 25:41-"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels".


Oh.p.s......whoever said people get outta hell is talking jibberish, nobody who goes there gets out...Im guessing that idea is a muslim perspective.

:nonono:

peace be with you !

just understand that you come to your own understandings with a limited viewpoint, limited understanding of what's being presented and a very likely possibility of flawed interpretation.

None of which are limitations that God has to deal with and so that outlook will be different from your own. You only know what you've been told by someone else. How do you know what you've been told isn't a lie?

......."but the Bible says............"


exactly, you don't.

a lie believed to be truth will be presented as THE Truth by those that believed the lie. You talk so matter of factly "hell is eternal" when you got places that are hell here on earth that are surely temporary.

What you think you know and what you actually DO know are two different things.

Mumm Ra
01-20-2010, 05:38 PM
one has to understand the difference between information and knowledge (experience)
many don't
and that information (words) are symbols of knowledge, they aren't the real deal

prof zooruka
01-20-2010, 07:29 PM
just understand that you come to your own understandings with a limited viewpoint, limited understanding of what's being presented and a very likely possibility of flawed interpretation.

None of which are limitations that God has to deal with and so that outlook will be different from your own. You only know what you've been told by someone else. How do you know what you've been told isn't a lie?

......."but the Bible says............"


exactly, you don't.

a lie believed to be truth will be presented as THE Truth by those that believed the lie. You talk so matter of factly "hell is eternal" when you got places that are hell here on earth that are surely temporary.

What you think you know and what you actually DO know are two different things.

Dude I hate to be the one to inform you ..but the people who wrote the bible had direct contact with God....Im also sorry for you because the devil has blinded you to the truth and made you think you have found it in worldly knowledge....but here is what the bible says about people who think like you


If the Good News we preach is hidden behind a veil, it is hidden only from people who are perishing.Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

I will pray for you visionz

peace be with you !

Mumm Ra
01-20-2010, 07:32 PM
..but the people who wrote the bible had direct contact with God....
one has to understand the difference between information and knowledge (experience)
many don't
and that information (words) are symbols of knowledge, they aren't the real deal
.but here is what the bible says about people who think like you

one has to understand the difference between information and knowledge (experience)
many don't
and that information (words) are symbols of knowledge, they aren't the real deal
.

prof zooruka
01-20-2010, 08:37 PM
^^^^


So mumm ra if im not mistaken you are saying that the bible is not knowledge just information right ??????



peace be with you !

Mumm Ra
01-20-2010, 10:38 PM
I'm saying any written or spoken word is information & not knowledge
did you personally witness god saying these things to people?
No - then the best you have is hearsay
this is why you (and not just you personally) will say they believe in god -
to believe is to admit you don't know - you wouldn't say you believe you know what a tree is
they read about him (symbols) and mistake those symbols for experience

you can read a million words about zebras - you would still conclude you only have information and not direct knowledge - even if those words are correct
don't pass hearsay for knowledge
peace

prof zooruka
01-20-2010, 11:15 PM
I'm saying any written or spoken word is information & not knowledge
did you personally witness god saying these things to people?
No - then the best you have is hearsay
this is why you (and not just you personally) will say they believe in god -
to believe is to admit you don't know - you wouldn't say you believe you know what a tree is
they read about him (symbols) and mistake those symbols for experience

you can read a million words about zebras - you would still conclude you only have information and not direct knowledge - even if those words are correct
don't pass hearsay for knowledge
peace

I beg to differ mumm ra........ One can obtain knowledge through information without experiance...for example take a doctor (your example) does he need to have experianced a person with cancer to have knowledge of the disease???? NO...he can recommend the best course of treatment based on his knowledge, which was obtained through information that he has recieved about the disease.... I mean what would be the point of universities and collages if people learn the information about subjects, but yet come to have no knowledge...then there years of study would be wasted,but thats not the case people come out with knowledge which enables them to go straight into there given profession and work efficiantly...without out having ever experianced a real life situation....because they have knowledge.




Having said that bible is knowledge of God...communicated through the information that is given...even though I may have never spoken to God personally, I can still have direct knowledge about him through what is written, to the point if I did meet God It would be like Ive known him a long time.


I think your getting experiance and knowledge mixed up.....one can have knowledge about anything they study, but actual experiance is somthing that must be obtained from real life encounters...


peace be with you !

Visionz
01-20-2010, 11:28 PM
Dude I hate to be the one to inform you ..but the people who wrote the bible had direct contact with God


....Im also sorry for you because the devil has blinded you to the truth and made you think you have found it in worldly knowledge....but here is what the bible says about people who think like you


If the Good News we preach is hidden behind a veil, it is hidden only from people who are perishing.Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

I will pray for you visionz

peace be with you !


You accept falsehood for truth to the point that you can not distinguish one from the other. You are not worthy to judge me even as you pass it on me.

What worldly knowledge is the inspiration for my thoughts?

What exactly is it that me and people like me are thinking?

prof zooruka
01-21-2010, 12:03 AM
You accept falsehood for truth to the point that you can not distinguish one from the other. You are not worthy to judge me even as you pass it on me.

What worldly knowledge is the inspiration for my thoughts?

What exactly is it that me and people like me are thinking?

My so called falsehood has proof to back it up..... JESUS !!!!!!!!!!



Also I could ask you , what qualifies you to call the bible falsehood...what because other worldly people have told you that and you want to fit in ???? or have you decided it for yourself and if so what brought you to that conclusion ?????? ... Look visionz Im all for questioning truths , but after I have seen enough of the facts I make my descion based on those facts...and I personally have seen enough evidance to prove Jesus is God and his message is Godly and truth.


peace be with you !

Mumm Ra
01-21-2010, 07:46 AM
I beg to differ mumm ra........ One can obtain knowledge through information without experiance...for example take a doctor (your example) does he need to have experianced a person with cancer to have knowledge of the disease???? NO...
YES
and don't forget what I said about correct hearsay -
he can have correct hearsay about the disease ..... without having knowledge (experience) of it
he can recommend the best course of treatment based on his knowledge, which was obtained through information that he has recieved about the disease....
he can't rightfully know that information is TRUTH until it is UTILIZED (experienced)
you're telling me there is a 0% margin of error in that doctor knowing what is going to happen verses what the information tells him is going to happen?
understand that it is a very thin line between info/ knowledge, but a line nonetheless
also, with that being said - closed systems (instruction manuals/ mathematics/ changing a car tire, ect) can be learned through reading

but you are on to something totally different, especially by your example below -
by your reasoning i should be able to read the Autobio of Malcolm X (good example cuz it wasn't written by him), and KNOW (no margin of error) that every single letter in every quote is correct
that every event, view and thought of Malcolm's, as written by someone else, was exactly correct
is this not illogical sounding to you?
even if everything IS 100% on point, i don't have knowledge of him doing anything, i would just have correct hear-say


I mean what would be the point of universities and collages if people learn the information about subjects, but yet come to have no knowledge...then there years of study would be wasted,but thats not the case people come out with knowledge which enables them to go straight into there given profession and work efficiantly...without out having ever experianced a real life situation....because they have knowledge.
you DO get a lot of first hand experience in college prof -
besides, you're downplaying info - just because you're forced to memorize a bunch of info doesn't mean it's totally useless
if your reasoning were the case, NOBODY would fail at their profession once they got outta college, because they would KNOW (no margin of error) exactly what had to be done

Having said that bible is knowledge of God...communicated through the information that is given...even though I may have never spoken to God personally, I can still have direct knowledge about him through what is written, to the point if I did meet God It would be like Ive known him a long time.
let me set an example:
imagine YOU are (Y) the BIBLE is (B) and GOD is (G)
you are telling me you can have DIRECT knowledge (Y -----> G)
by reading the bible (Y -----> B -----> G) ≠ (Y -----> G)
your logic is fundamentally flawed, as B ≠ G, but rather is information (symbols/ words) of G


I think your getting experiance and knowledge mixed up.....one can have knowledge about anything they study, but actual experiance is somthing that must be obtained from real life encounters...

i don't have anything mixed up - but you still have knowledge mixed up with information

THE MASON
01-21-2010, 11:59 AM
Jesus isnt proof, he is a propenent of perpetuating a falsehood.

if Jesus is your proof, then Mohammed is Islams proof, Moses is Judaisms proof, to which Jesus would just be in the line of "proofs" and making Christianity nothing special compared to other world religions.

see what your close minded self fails to realize prof, is that because you believe one thing doesnt make it true to everyone, or everything. If as you say, i have true free will, then i can choose how i follow God, and he shouldnt have a problem with that, since wants us to choose.

There is NO proof that any religion is 100% true, and one man who has been words have altered to the extent that, the bible is the opinions of monks, scholars, secular rulers, and a corrupt Vatican. there is nothing true about the Bible on the subject of God.

Visionz
01-21-2010, 12:43 PM
My so called falsehood has proof to back it up..... JESUS !!!!!!!!!!



Also I could ask you , what qualifies you to call the bible falsehood...what because other worldly people have told you that and you want to fit in ???? or have you decided it for yourself and if so what brought you to that conclusion ?????? ... Look visionz Im all for questioning truths , but after I have seen enough of the facts I make my descion based on those facts...and I personally have seen enough evidance to prove Jesus is God and his message is Godly and truth.


peace be with you !
notice how you're not answering any of my questions. Just want to point that out.

Second, I'm not calling the entire Bible a falsehood. You take it that way but that goes back to your own inclination to judge without knowing. (something you yourself should very vigilant against) But no, the falsehood comes from the doctine surrounding the bible. The doctrines that have turned christians into judgemental, holier-than-thous. The doctrines that justify bloodshed and torture, it's all falsehood. God's love is universal and his mercy beyond comprehension. If you go around pointing the finger so sure of what you know and what God thinks, beware and humble yourself for NONE surely know.

Jesus brought God's message but that message is God's alone. Jesus said so himself but the doctrine surrounding him has built him up to more than he ever claimed.

WARPATH
01-21-2010, 01:05 PM
Dude I hate to be the one to inform you ..but the people who wrote the bible had direct contact with God....


How can you verify this?