PDA

View Full Version : Jesus wasn't a Jew


TheBoarzHeadBoy
02-02-2010, 02:29 PM
I'm convinced he was born in a Jewish community. I'm convinced he was raised by Jews. But I do not believe he was a Jew.

He showed more in common with Indian Shramanas then Jewish Priests. I think that might be a well traveled or well read Philosopher. We know he read Jewish scriptures in depth and debated Rabbis as a boy. Its not unthinkable that he was a very well read and traveled person. Its not unthinkable that he met with silk road travelers and learned of the East. He is said to have traveled around a lot.

We know he lived with Essenes, and they seem to be very similar to Buddhists.

The accounts by Josephus and Philo show that the Essenes led a strictly celibate and communal life – often compared by scholars to later Christian monastic living – although Josephus speaks also of another "rank of Essenes" that did get married.[37] According to Josephus, they had customs and observances such as collective ownership,[38][39] elected a leader to attend to the interests of them all whose orders they obeyed,[40] were forbidden from swearing oaths[41] and sacrificing animals,[42] controlled their temper and served as channels of peace,[41] carried weapons only as protection against robbers,[43] had no slaves but served each other[44] and, as a result of communal ownership, did not engage in trading.[45] Both Josephus and Philo have lengthy accounts of their communal meetings, meals and religious celebrations.
After a total of three years' probation,[46] newly joining members would take an oath that included the commitment to practice piety towards "the Deity" (το θειον) and righteousness towards humanity, to maintain a pure lifestyle, to abstain from criminal and immoral activities, to transmit their rules uncorrupted and to preserve the books of the Essenes and the names of the Angels.[47] Their theology included belief in the immortality of the soul and that they would receive their souls back after death.[18][48] Part of their activities included purification by water rituals, which was supported by rainwater catchment and storage.
The Church Father Epiphanius (writing in the fourth century CE) seems to make a distinction between two main groups within the Essenes:[31] "Of those that came before his [Elxai, an Ossaean prophet] time and during it, the Ossaeans and the Nazarean.".[49] Epiphanius describes each group as following:
The Nazarean – they were Jews by nationality – originally from Gileaditis, Bashanitis and the Transjordon… They acknowledged Moses and believed that he had received laws – not this law, however, but some other. And so, they were Jews who kept all the Jewish observances, but they would not offer sacrifice or eat meat. They considered it unlawful to eat meat or make sacrifices with it. They claim that these Books are fictions, and that none of these customs were instituted by the fathers. This was the difference between the Nazarean and the others…[50]
After this [Nazarean] sect in turn comes another closely connected with them, called the Ossaeans. These are Jews like the former… originally came from Nabataea, Ituraea, Moabitis and Arielis, the lands beyond the basin of what sacred scripture called the Salt Sea… Though it is different from the other six of these seven sects, it causes schism only by forbidding the books of Moses like the Nazarean.[49]
If it is correct to identify the community at Qumran with the Essenes (and that the community at Qumran are the authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls), then according to the Dead Sea Scrolls the Essenes' community school was called "Yahad" (meaning "unity") in order to differentiate themselves from the rest of the Jews who are repeatedly labeled "The Breakers of the Covenant".

This seems really out of place with the mainstream Jews. I'm guessing its sort of a culture mix between the Levant and the Indian subcontinent.

Ninja
02-02-2010, 03:10 PM
Yes your right......he wasn't a jew

He was a muslim
:)

Mumm Ra
02-02-2010, 03:14 PM
its not unthinkable that he never existed

Aesop Chi Odi
02-02-2010, 03:47 PM
<<I'm convinced he was born in a Jewish community. I'm convinced he was raised by Jews. But I do not believe he was a Jew.<<

You described how one would become a Jew and then concluded that one could possibly not be a Jew if he became one by means given in the description. It’s confusing.

If he was born into a Jewish community and raised within that Jewish community by Jews then he was a Jew.

Christianity is so problematic that it’s no longer worth discussing. I can’t find any proof that it is what it’s believed to be, the worship of god through the teachings of a personality known as Jesus. Our history suggests that it was once a spiritual discipline transformed into a religion used to manipulate its followers. It used to be Gnostic, now its non-sense and more political than religious or spiritual.

Similar transformations have occurred in other religions. It has always been the task of the seeker to discover the hidden mysticism and authentic spirituality in all early forms of the world’s major religions.

This task is no longer necessary in my opinion given the various other avenues available to one who is want of enlightenment.

zooruka
02-02-2010, 03:47 PM
I think I actually agree with the statement jesus wasn`t a jew...but not in the way the thread maker said.... Jesus himself made some comments that give me reason to believe that while he was raised a jew and lived like a jew he wasn`t really a jew by ethnicity, here is some of what he had to say.


Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.


Here Jesus is talk about the jews as if he was not really one of them, otherwise he would have said delivered to my people...but he says he should not be delivered to the jews in the context of ....there is them and there is him....like he is an outsider and is not really one of them, highlighting that there is a differance between them....I mean if Jesus was jewish he wouldn`t have used such language as THE JEWS...it makes no sense...but in the above passgae he refers to himself and jews as different entities.



also



john 15:25 -'But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

Here Jesus again casts doubt on his jewishness, when he again refers to the jews as a seperate entity to himself, by saying "this fulfills what is written in THERE Law" , meaning the law of the Jews, he did not say our law he said there law !!!!!....like he is not really one of them.


I believe Jesus said all these things because he is God and God has no nationality, and while he did choose to be born into a jewish community and be raised as a jew, he remained God and therefore was never a jew in ethnicity.

B.T.W...all that stuff about being taught in the east is hogg wash.(no offense).


peace be with you !

TheBoarzHeadBoy
02-03-2010, 05:39 PM
Its really not, the middle east was full of buddhist missionaries back then from India. There were many similarities between new testament teachings (Gnosticism as opposed to modern christianity which is the interpretation of Jews and Gentiles of his teaching in the context of Jewish religion as had existed there.

I don't mean Jew as in an ethnic people, but as a religion. Jesus was a Hebrew but didn't practice true Judaism. Jesus's followers say he was God because they're attempting to explain Buddhist enlightenment in Jewish terms. A Buddha is an incredibly powerful being that broke free of the universes control on them. That's got to be something like "God" in Hebrew. The whole Father Son being the same is probably their understanding of the fact that a Buddha is wholly within the Brahman and has blown out their self.

Jesus's 40 days in the desert are almost identical to Siddhartha Gotama's trials by the god of darkness Mara who tempted the Buddha with all the Buddhist sins.

The problem with Christianity is that it's become this Jewish death cult when it wasn't supposed to be. Its supposed to be an enlightenment quest based religion. The man Jesus died before he could really promote his beliefs and help others help themselves. His disciples lacked the full knowledge and had not found enlightenment but realized that Jesus had. So they cobbled together their memories of what he taught, Jewish beliefs, some of their own reform ideas, and created "Christianity" the religion dedicated to their short lived hero.

This doesn't down play Jesus at all. He's still a venerable figure equal to any other Buddha. It just puts a historical event into clearer focus.

Lets be real purist Buddhism could not flourish among the Jews. So they made it palatable to the people. That's not wrong morally, its just incorrect factually.

Just think about it. I don't want to undermine the good tenets of Christianity, I just want to say that the old heathen Jews and now Muslims are on some whole other shit. Mainstream Jews and Muslims are descended from Hellenistic Greco-Roman-Egyptian-Levantine paganism.

Face of the Golden Falcon
02-04-2010, 02:15 AM
I don't know about visiting the east, but the bible says he grew up in Egypt!

HETEPU

Rob-
02-04-2010, 04:14 AM
it's difficult to say jesus was a jew or whatever, because all of todays big 3 religions raised from the sumerians and ancient hebrews. maybe jesus was one of them.


I'm guessing its sort of a culture mix between the Levant and the Indian subcontinent.
that's the point! without that culture mix the first advanced culture (sumerians) could never come up. before the sumerians, there was only a primitive proto-semetic culture in area of mesepotamia wich was already high in population (as result of first millstones, jericho). at that time during climatic chanches the tibetan ice-lakes began to melt down, that makes the shamanistic bon monks (18.000 years-old culture) travel down to mesepotamia (now they called ubaid). as they arrive there, they found a population which was big enough to realize their building projects (ditches, zigurats, etc.). only through this potential it was possible to form the sumerians, the first polytheism civilization as a result of mixing semitic and shamanistic cultures together. and abraham (if he really existed) was a sumerian. without knowing that coherencies, it' almost impossible to understand the modern religions. all these are facts based on the calculation of linear propagation speed of early humen migrations.

Koolish
02-04-2010, 01:04 PM
"Jesus's followers say he was God because they're attempting to explain Buddhist enlightenment in Jewish terms." how do you know? if Jesus was a buddhist, don't you think he would have told his disciples?

TheBoarzHeadBoy
02-04-2010, 02:53 PM
But we know he studied with the Essene Jews and fasted in the desert for 40 days while tempted by the devil. The Essene practices are to our knowledge quite similar to Buddhist ones. They considered themselves Jews, but they were a hybrid of pure Buddhism and the Semetic traditions we refer to as Judaism (which appears to be related to Phoenician and Ancient Greek religion albeit only worshiping the main God, El [Cronos].)

Jesus walked the line between two religions. He then generated a third. Think about it, the god of the old testament is pretty different then the new testament. Its also different from the universal conscience of Buddhist thought. But its closer. You don't have God smiting people with lightning bolts or turning them into salt or whatnot. Its a more cosmic deity. Jesus was at one with God. That makes him a Buddha whether he accepted it or not.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen045.html

They're either THE SAME PERSON making Jesus a fictional character.

or Jesus was a real person who walked the same path as Siddhartha.

I'm leaning towards the former but I'm unwilling to exclude the latter.

LORD NOSE
02-04-2010, 03:48 PM
A0JByxTldVU

TheBoarzHeadBoy
02-05-2010, 03:57 PM
That makes sense, but I don't buy it. I could just as easily argue that the positions of the sun and stars were placed by God to remind us of the story. :p

Mumm Ra
02-05-2010, 04:28 PM
who is "he"? (there's plenty of "jesus" stories before jesus)
some could just as easily argue a case for the flying spaghetti monster i guess.

i am personally as convinced that jesus never existed as i am convinced the sun will rise in the morning. through all the similarities ive came across in the many egyptian books ive read accompanied by the reasonable illogic behind jesus' story.
that topic has been beaten to death on this forum though i wont get any deeper into it.

THUGNIFICENT
03-15-2010, 03:37 PM
who is "he"? (there's plenty of "jesus" stories before jesus)
some could just as easily argue a case for the flying spaghetti monster i guess.

i am personally as convinced that jesus never existed as i am convinced the sun will rise in the morning. through all the similarities ive came across in the many egyptian books ive read accompanied by the reasonable illogic behind jesus' story.
that topic has been beaten to death on this forum though i wont get any deeper into it.

I agree that Jesus as son of god etc. is pretty stupid, and when the virgin mother / dead for three days / crucified stories told throughout time are compared, it becomes clear that it's pretty much nothing but a fabrication.

That being said, some dude name Jesus almost definitely existed. Probably a charismatic prophet with hella followers, which is the reason for the Bible's clusterfuck of an explanation for his birth. The writers were scrambling for a way to make the character of Jesus fulfill a prophecy, and when he didn't they had to pull some shit outta the air.