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yonder
02-19-2010, 08:34 PM
why is everyone talking about this utopia with a perfect democracy where every1 has equal power and has the right to decide everything? i could see this work if people were smarter but when the average person is fucking retarded this idea is worthless.

people are fucking stupid and would probably make things even worse. seriously how many ppl have you encountered in real life or on the internet that are so stupid that they have made you speechless?

if the answer is something other than: MANY
you are probably one of those stupid people.

do u agree or disagree?

wunded fox, if u are gonna post. try to stick to the topic and dont try to be funny. thx! no offence!

Uncle Steezo
02-19-2010, 08:36 PM
democracy is mob rule.
republic is where its at.

you must be one of the stupid ones. no offence.

Uncle Steezo
02-19-2010, 08:38 PM
http://memeparty.com/i/83e0130f573b90a7dda4cc44166749e8.jpg

PALEFORCE
02-19-2010, 08:40 PM
in the next 5 years alot of people arent going to survive and society is going to change as we know it. alot of the stupid people will be out of the way then.

TheBoarzHeadBoy
02-19-2010, 08:46 PM
Lol what we need are one month termed autocrats elected internally from a pool of democratically elected senators which have longer terms. I don't know how it would help our country, but it would be funny to watch countries try react to our 180 degree policy shifts every year.
"We're invading Iran"
"I'm sending Oprah to Iran to sort it out"
"We're stealing all the oil"
"We're giving back the oil."
"Gay sex is wrong"
"I'm gay and I'm against it"
"I support american values"
"I fucked my secretary"
"We are in agreement on the last two points"
"Steve Carell is the man!"
"He's not that funny"

*civil war*

Uncle Steezo
02-19-2010, 08:48 PM
Lol what we need are one month termed autocrats elected internally from a pool of democratically elected senators which have longer terms. I don't know how it would help our country, but it would be funny to watch countries try react to our 180 degree policy shifts every year.
"We're invading Iran"
"I'm sending Oprah to Iran to sort it out"
"We're stealing all the oil"
"We're giving back the oil."
"Gay sex is wrong"
"I'm gay and I'm against it"
"I support american values"
"I fucked my secretary"
"We are in agreement on the last two points"
"Steve Carell is the man!"
"He's not that funny"

*civil war*
hahahahahahaaha!
best post of your life.

TSA
02-19-2010, 08:48 PM
republics are prone to corruption, only second to dictatorships.

democracy is the best form of government cause it ensures ppl the most security from the government in comparison to others. Yea ppl are stupid but most ppl dont care about the government, so even in a total democracy most stupid ppl wont exercise their increased rights cause it aint that deep, only the politically minded or those with a stake in the issue at hand with is very few ppl.

I problem i thought of a long time ago with the form of government we have now that's never addressed is the fact that its 24/7,

you have a governing body in session all the time making rules all the time, the result is the slow choking out of freedoms cause once they run out of legit things to make rules about or against there is still a 24 hr rule making machine running. I think we've experienced that choke out increasingly over time.

Uncle Steezo
02-19-2010, 08:51 PM
7v0vtxC00QA

Uncle Steezo
02-19-2010, 08:56 PM
i don't think people even know the diff between a republic and a democracy.
some people think america is a democracy.

Wu-Tang Forum Internet Poster
02-19-2010, 08:59 PM
some people act like the terms are black and white, when they are essentially open to semantics and interpretation, with many overlapping qualities.

America IS a democracy.

Everything we have is because of the people. THe people created it, and the people have the power to change it.

yonder
02-19-2010, 09:01 PM
"democracy is mob rule.
republic is where its at."

what?

im talking about people who wants to get closer and closer to an absolute democracy, with referendums made about every important matter, without corrupted politicians.

look at switzerland for example. if you manage to get 50 000 people to sign your petition (can be about pretty much anything) there must be held a nationwide voting about the subject. and if people are stupid like people are stupid they would probably accept something stupid, do you understand?

never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

yonder
02-19-2010, 09:05 PM
a referendrum was held recently and the majority voted to ban the constructions of minaret, see where i am going?

PALEFORCE
02-19-2010, 09:06 PM
i wish i lived in switzrland

TheBoarzHeadBoy
02-19-2010, 09:07 PM
Democracy is bad tsa because the majority tends to be wrong...

I mean ask the average american who wrote our constitution and you'll get a chorus of "Thomas Jefferson!"

You ask who the chairman of the fed is "..." and if you hint his name is Ben you'll get "That guy from Ferris Bueller?"

You ask the average college guy to sign a petition to abolish the first amendment and he'll say "Fuck George Bush" (taken as a yes)

people get dumber the more you put together. Any resourceful person could survive on an nice island. A hundred people would try to eat each other.

Wu-Tang Forum Internet Poster
02-19-2010, 09:10 PM
i wish i lived in switzrland

I thought you were all about personal freedom?

yonder
02-19-2010, 09:10 PM
republics are prone to corruption, only second to dictatorships.

democracy is the best form of government cause it ensures ppl the most security from the government in comparison to others. Yea ppl are stupid but most ppl dont care about the government, so even in a total democracy most stupid ppl wont exercise their increased rights cause it aint that deep, only the politically minded or those with a stake in the issue at hand with is very few ppl.

I problem i thought of a long time ago with the form of government we have now that's never addressed is the fact that its 24/7,

you have a governing body in session all the time making rules all the time, the result is the slow choking out of freedoms cause once they run out of legit things to make rules about or against there is still a 24 hr rule making machine running. I think we've experienced that choke out increasingly over time.



good point but what if some smart person suddently gets the idea to rally up 1 million stupid people for a stupid cause, and trick them with higher pay or faster internet connection? would they get their will through? lets just say that their idea is moderately stupid, but still stupid.

Wu-Tang Forum Internet Poster
02-19-2010, 09:13 PM
tAhp17Mp7Xs

PALEFORCE
02-19-2010, 09:25 PM
I thought you were all about personal freedom?

switzerland> america in the personal freedom department

Uncle Steezo
02-19-2010, 10:02 PM
some people act like the terms are black and white, when they are essentially open to semantics and interpretation, with many overlapping qualities.

America IS a democracy.

Everything we have is because of the people. THe people created it, and the people have the power to change it.


doesn't know the difference between a republic and a democracy.

there aren't many differences, and they are minor BUT there is one difference that stands out and it is what makes USA a republic.

i'll rep you sooo deep in your ass you will taste sprite for a week if you can figure it out.

TheBoarzHeadBoy
02-19-2010, 10:27 PM
[I'll give you a hint Dan, its the reason we have politicians]

TSA
02-19-2010, 10:29 PM
a referendrum was held recently and the majority voted to ban the constructions of minaret, see where i am going?
so? they dont want minarets in their land then fuck it, no minarets.
democracy isn't kind. nor does it need to be, an absolute democracy would actually be my cuntly then a republic because THE PEOPLE are cunts, but politicians are corrupt and have to be to operate in a republic, and when they're overtly idealistic they can be dangerous on a large scale.

Democracy is bad tsa because the majority tends to be wrong...

I mean ask the average american who wrote our constitution and you'll get a chorus of "Thomas Jefferson!"

You ask who the chairman of the fed is "..." and if you hint his name is Ben you'll get "That guy from Ferris Bueller?"

You ask the average college guy to sign a petition to abolish the first amendment and he'll say "Fuck George Bush" (taken as a yes)

people get dumber the more you put together. Any resourceful person could survive on an nice island. A hundred people would try to eat each other.

i dont believe the majority can be 'wrong' or 'right'. They want what they want, and there's no reason for justifying giving someone something they want if you believe in personal liberty.

if the swiss for instance dont want minarets then fuck it, they dont want minarets. If ppl want to vote for nationwide suicide then who are you to tell them it's 'wrong'. That's specifically what they want in its their land, let them do on it as they wish.

ppl are stupid, but so? intelligent ppl have fucked up the world more then the stupid.

hitler
stalin
mao
ect ect, you won't find a single stupid mass murderer, mass manipulator, mass destroyer, or flat out global internet cunt that isn't notably intelligent.

Uncle Steezo
02-19-2010, 11:01 PM
well there is a thing called Natural Law.

natural law prevents nations from doing shit like rounding up all the igbos and throwing them in a volcano.

let me rephrase that, it provides a platform for humanity to act against things like genocide and rape.

basically human rights.

if a majority enacts law that denegrates an individuals human rights its considered unjust and by human rights standards illegal.

beautifulrock
02-19-2010, 11:21 PM
Democracy doesn't exist

Wu-Tang Forum Internet Poster
02-20-2010, 12:15 AM
doesn't know the difference between a republic and a democracy.

there aren't many differences, and they are minor BUT there is one difference that stands out and it is what makes USA a republic.

i'll rep you sooo deep in your ass you will taste sprite for a week if you can figure it out.

[I'll give you a hint Dan, its the reason we have politicians]

Again, you can get into all the semantics you want, but a republic is a democracy.

I'm not going to define things for the dumb, even if a 15-year-old pseudo-intellectual tries to condescend to me.

The United States is both a democracy and a Republic.

WHy are the less-educated trying to teach me?

A REPUBLIC IS A FORM OF DEMOCRACY.

And gavin, why would I taste sprite?

Wu-Tang Forum Internet Poster
02-20-2010, 12:17 AM
Democracy doesn't exist

You live in a democracy.

Just because the people don't like you, and you don't like them and what they've built, everything we have is a direct result of the people.

The people have created the entire mess you see before you, and the people STILL have the power to change it.

You don't speak for the people. They speak for themselves. TOo bad people are stupid.

Uncle Steezo
02-20-2010, 12:22 AM
And gavin, why would I taste sprite?
lime dick?
oh well, i thought it was clever.

Longbongcilvaringz
02-20-2010, 12:23 AM
It depends what you take democracy to mean.

The contemporary form bares almost no resemblance to Grecian democracy i guess.

I wonder what America would be like if people had to vote.

Wu-Tang Forum Internet Poster
02-20-2010, 12:24 AM
lime dick?
oh well, i thought it was clever.

I got you. I might be a little slow tonight.

Wu-Tang Forum Internet Poster
02-20-2010, 12:26 AM
It depends what you take democracy to mean.

The contemporary form bares almost no resemblance to Grecian democracy i guess.

I wonder what America would be like if people had to vote.


But if the majority of people don't want to vote, but they HAD to, is that democracy?

Like you said, a democracy is a government of the people, and it can be interpreted differently.

Nobody is necessarily right or wrong

Wu-Tang Forum Internet Poster
02-20-2010, 12:30 AM
ZDPIK7Fz_g4

Longbongcilvaringz
02-20-2010, 12:35 AM
But if the majority of people don't want to vote, but they HAD to, is that democracy?

Like you said, a democracy is a government of the people, and it can be interpreted differently.

Nobody is necessarily right or wrong

It's a paradox.

Legally, you have to vote in Aus.

Which would appear to contravene the core principles of democracy.

Then again, if only 40% of the population vote, what mandate does a 'democratically' elected government have?

We also have referenda, which might seem attractive to outside nations.

But as yonder pointed out, most of the issues which go to a referendum are ridiculous;y trivial.

While my state government introduce a raft of draconian legislation, we had a fucking referendum on daylight savings.

Months and months of public debate on whether or not to change the time by an hour, while the government went wild.

The conundrum with democracy is of course that the mob does not have the expertise to tackle the problems of a nation. So we elect representatives who are supposedly experts in their various fields.

Unfortunately, the only thing politicians are expert at is being politicians. You have hundreds of lawyers, filling roles such as "Minister for Health" and "Minister for the Environment" with no understanding of their field.

Anyway, faggits can talk up other political systems all they want, but in truth, democracy is the a lesser evil.

Uncle Steezo
02-20-2010, 12:37 AM
what is the penalty for noncompliance?

Wu-Tang Forum Internet Poster
02-20-2010, 12:39 AM
But if only 40% of the population votes, that falls on the % of people that didn't vote, not the government.

By voting or not voting, the people exercise their will. If you don't care what happens to yourself or your country...

Again, our government is corrupt and inefficient because of the people.

Longbongcilvaringz
02-20-2010, 12:47 AM
what is the penalty for noncompliance?

A fine.

(you can still lodge a 'donkey vote' (a nothing vote) if you want...)

But if only 40% of the population votes, that falls on the % of people that didn't vote, not the government.

By voting or not voting, the people exercise their will. If you don't care what happens to yourself or your country...

Again, our government is corrupt and inefficient because of the people.

Yeah, it does fall on those who don't vote.

But regardless, how can a government with maybe only 20% of the population's support govern an entire nation of people legitimately.

Which leads into another point, democracy in it's current form is in no way consummately representative.

You have the choice of 1A or 1B. The choice between one group of highly conservative individuals and another group of slightly less conservative individuals. Radical change cannot happen in democracy.

For practical purposes, this is considered essential. You look at countries which don't operate two party systems, and they have no governmental stability (Switzerland is a good example).

Political systems are all about balance. Democracy is the most balanced of an unbalance bunch pretty much.

TheBoarzHeadBoy
02-20-2010, 12:59 AM
Democracy isn't about free freedom. Its about being able to have a shot at making your point. Anarchy is freedom. No rule (self rule) is better then mob rule (a lot of people able to be ignoring you) is better then oligarchy (a few people able to be ignoring you) is better then autocracy (one person is able to be ignoring you.)

And I'm a 17 year old pseudo intellectual, at this point it's getting close...

Grecian democracy is hardcore. Only the citizens (which are never going to be the all of the people just the respectably wealthy male landowners like in our own country originally) and up could vote, things were often debated via screaming contest, fights could break out, and citizenship had obligations like military duty, and on top of that it was Bring your own Bombs. Being a citizen wasn't easy, which allowed them to run a republic and call it a democracy. All the citizens had a say which isn't really that many more then the hundreds of roman officials in a republic.

But at least Citizens aren't fat cat senators (latin for the old men.) I think that Citizenship in America should become a privilege not a right. You should earn your rights here. Land of opportunity requires land of responsibility.

Wu-Tang Forum Internet Poster
02-20-2010, 01:01 AM
Again, a republic IS a form of democracy.

beautifulrock
02-20-2010, 01:16 AM
there are two principles that any definition of democracy includes, equality and freedom.

We don't live in a democracy, financially we are ALL NOT EQUAL. We live in a corporatocracy.

Longbongcilvaringz
02-20-2010, 03:04 AM
Where do you understand those principles come from though?

They are not historic, but philosophical.

Who do you attribute them to and what relation do they have democracy?

Why are they inalienable?

beautifulrock
02-20-2010, 03:05 AM
I dunno, I read it off wikipedia.

Longbongcilvaringz
02-20-2010, 03:18 AM
Uh, ok cool.

My point is though, there are no examples of these political systems functioning, let alone succeeding, in their purest form.

Ideas of equality and freedom are great, but why they are inextricably linked with democracy is interesting.

As TBHBDEFGHIJK pointed out, Grecian democracy was in no way egalitarian.

Such ideas were devised later, they were discussed by Locke, Hobbes and Mill congruently with democracy but not necessarily linked.

TheBoarzHeadBoy
02-20-2010, 02:07 PM
Greek Democracy was a limited democracy. You had to be "important enough" to be able to have a say. You had to be a land owning male with a certain level of status to make the cut of citizen. The guy who shines shoes is not a citizen. The prostitute is not a citizen. Greek Democracy is sort of like a corporation. If you aren't' a share holder in the city's well being get the fuck out we don't want your complaints.

This makes sense. Your average guy is gonna vote for his own self interest. If someone's primary interest is that his city flourishes (a land owning merchant or someone who has a lot to lose) then he's going to vote in the cities best interests as he sees them. He's also more educated so he has some basic understanding of things. A poor person doesn't care who's in charge, he's poor regardless. You give him a say and he's just going to ask for stuff that helps him short term, not the city long term.

Uncle Steezo
02-20-2010, 02:19 PM
Greek Democracy was a limited democracy. You had to be "important enough" to be able to have a say. You had to be a land owning male with a certain level of status to make the cut of citizen. The guy who shines shoes is not a citizen. The prostitute is not a citizen. Greek Democracy is sort of like a corporation. If you aren't' a share holder in the city's well being get the fuck out we don't want your complaints.

This makes sense. Your average guy is gonna vote for his own self interest. If someone's primary interest is that his city flourishes (a land owning merchant or someone who has a lot to lose) then he's going to vote in the cities best interests as he sees them. He's also more educated so he has some basic understanding of things. A poor person doesn't care who's in charge, he's poor regardless. You give him a say and he's just going to ask for stuff that helps him short term, not the city long term.


exactly right, cause the rich never go for self.

TheBoarzHeadBoy
02-20-2010, 11:32 PM
They are going for self, but because they're more important to the nation their goals are the nation's goals. Its like who's more important to making our country work: The guy working at micky dees or the guy running an airline.

Exactly. If you want things to work out you need to make the rich people happy. Poor people are easy to find, and easy to replace. The skilled rich are a hotter commodity.

TSA
02-21-2010, 06:58 AM
white ppl like to make up a lot of fancy terms for essentially the same shit
it's called speaking english

a republic is a democracy, there is only democracy and totalitarianism, everything falls in those categories.

Uncle Steezo
02-21-2010, 07:14 AM
there is only democracy and totalitarianism, everything falls in those categories.

no.

TSA
02-21-2010, 07:21 AM
They are going for self, but because they're more important to the nation their goals are the nation's goals. Its like who's more important to making our country work: The guy working at micky dees or the guy running an airline.

Exactly. If you want things to work out you need to make the rich people happy. Poor people are easy to find, and easy to replace. The skilled rich are a hotter commodity.
true.

a country is an establishment of the rich property owner, for the rich and by the rich. the poor rent everything, including 'wealth' from the rich and any country attempting to do otherwise is establishing an artificial economic culture that will die with the goodwill of the particular leader/leaders that implement it.

im not saying that this is a good thing but it's reality. countries are for those that OWN the country, mainly land. everyone else is just there.

TheBoarzHeadBoy
02-21-2010, 11:37 PM
But you can have a totalitarian democracy.

Totalitarian means the government regulates everything you do.

Thus Glenn Beck and the Tea Baggers thinks America is becoming a totalitarian democracy.

The two opposites are free (anarchy) and controlled (authoritarian) everything is in varying degrees.