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Edgar Erebus
03-04-2010, 03:48 AM
Fuck your religion.


There, I said it. Now open fire and tell me everything that's wrong with me saying it.

Face of the Golden Falcon
03-04-2010, 05:19 AM
...I looked for a couple of minutes on google image search for a witty picture with something to do with attention seeking so I could post it, but it really isn't worth it.

Drunken Monk
03-04-2010, 05:24 AM
fuck your religion.


There, i said it. Now open fire and tell me everything that's wrong with me saying it.

know ya self retard

Sativahhh
03-04-2010, 08:12 AM
retard

Sativahhh
03-04-2010, 08:14 AM
im a mormon

Sham-iLL
03-04-2010, 09:03 AM
To each their own. I quote the Quran:
"
قُلۡ يَـٰٓأَيُّہَا ٱلۡڪَـٰفِرُونَ
Say (O Prophet): O ye who reject faith! (1)
لَآ أَعۡبُدُ مَا تَعۡبُدُونَ
I worship not that which ye worship; (2)
وَلَآ أَنتُمۡ عَـٰبِدُونَ مَآ أَعۡبُدُ
Nor worship ye that which I worship. (3)
وَلَآ أَنَا۟ عَابِدٌ۬ مَّا عَبَدتُّمۡ
And I shall not worship that which ye worship. (4)
وَلَآ أَنتُمۡ عَـٰبِدُونَ مَآ أَعۡبُدُ
Nor will ye worship that which I worship. (5)
لَكُمۡ دِينُكُمۡ وَلِىَ دِينِ
Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. (6)"

M3NTAL_Kat
03-05-2010, 04:27 AM
Fuck your religion.


There, I said it. Now open fire and tell me everything that's wrong with me saying it.

im with u .

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y44/stonefruit/NO_GODS_NO_MASTERS_sized-1-1.jpg

peace to all u quacks

zooruka
03-05-2010, 04:31 AM
The devil is blinding you !!!!!!.



Jesus is the only way kid.



:learning:



peace be with you !

M3NTAL_Kat
03-05-2010, 04:35 AM
The devil is blinding you !!!!!!.



peace be with you !


you've been blinded and brainwashed ,all the time , all the way by your carers . Go with it and wake up till is not too late .

Jesus is the only way kid.

jesus is only copie of elder prophets . U should read more science books kid , couse bible is only fairytale .

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a234/dlm101/JC/jesus-is-coming.jpg

Peace be with u

Come Honor Face
03-05-2010, 08:13 AM
All religions are completely ridiculous! How anyone could be convinced of such utter bullshit is beyond me. There is also no such thing as santa. No tooth fairy, and no easter bunny. Sorry.

klege
03-05-2010, 09:00 AM
I think religion is just a fairytale which got out of hand. Back in the days people use to tell the fairytale to one another and it got passed on like Chinese wispers. Next think you know alsorts were added to the story and people believed it to be true. I think religion is for the weak minded and people who are scared of death. When you die you just rot in your grave, you don't go nowhere else.

If people want to believe it then that's upto them. I just think it sad how the so called religion which is supose to be good has caused so many wars where people have died.

Mr. Muhammad
03-05-2010, 09:04 AM
A message to all the Muslims, Christians, Five-Percenters, Buddhists, Pagans, etc.

Fuck your religion.


There, I said it. Now open fire and tell me everything that's wrong with me saying it.

FUCK your NON-religion!

There, I said it...blah...blah...blah...

LORD NOSE
03-05-2010, 09:56 AM
The 5% is not a religion

beautifulrock
03-05-2010, 10:13 AM
I quote The Beatles "All you need is love"

Come Honor Face
03-05-2010, 10:25 AM
I think religion is just a fairytale which got out of hand. Back in the days people use to tell the fairytale to one another and it got passed on like Chinese wispers. Next think you know alsorts were added to the story and people believed it to be true. I think religion is for the weak minded and people who are scared of death. When you die you just rot in your grave, you don't go nowhere else.

If people want to believe it then that's upto them. I just think it sad how the so called religion which is supose to be good has caused so many wars where people have died.

Bingo! Anyone who believes that religion isn't absolutely horrible for the human race is clearly delusional.

M3NTAL_Kat
03-05-2010, 10:31 AM
I quote The Beatles "All you need is love"

in that case i can olny quote John Lennon

"Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace"

Come Honor Face
03-05-2010, 11:04 AM
in that case i can olny quote John Lennon

"Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try"

Yes. It most certainly is. It's also easy to "imagine" that Beyonce would be a good fuck.

SKAMPOE
03-05-2010, 11:12 AM
I think religion is just a fairytale which got out of hand. Back in the days people use to tell the fairytale to one another and it got passed on like Chinese wispers. Next think you know alsorts were added to the story and people believed it to be true. I think religion is for the weak minded and people who are scared of death. When you die you just rot in your grave, you don't go nowhere else.

If people want to believe it then that's upto them. I just think it sad how the so called religion which is supose to be good has caused so many wars where people have died.
i posted ur post on my facebook... repped

food for thought
03-05-2010, 11:40 AM
i posted ur post on my facebook

ahahahahahahahaha

klege
03-05-2010, 12:36 PM
i posted ur post on my facebook... repped

Why?

Come Honor Face
03-05-2010, 12:40 PM
It is kind of a strange thing to have on your facebook page.

knewcheeze
03-05-2010, 12:40 PM
u need a hug slim t?

klege
03-05-2010, 01:37 PM
It is kind of a strange thing to have on your facebook page.

That's what i thought.

It's just my personal opinion on religion that's all, i may be wrong or i may be right.

theheavens
03-05-2010, 02:13 PM
I think Five Percent is more of a philosophy than a religion. but yeah, religion is evil, for the most part. but it gives some people hope, and if that's what it takes for them to wake up every morning and not blow their brains out, then fine. let them believe in it

Face of the Golden Falcon
03-05-2010, 05:29 PM
Everyone gets caught up on a word...
"Religion is evil"
"Religion causes all the wars and hate in the world"
"If we only got rid of religion the world would be so much better"...

etc. etc.

If religion were gone the people who supposedly kill, war, fight, oppress, hate etc. because of religion would simply find another reason to do these things.

Religion is not what is wrong with the world...

Humanity is what's wrong with the world.

Until we address why it is that "to be human" means to be imperfect, irrational, selfish, unforgiving etc. then we will always have "religion" or another number of reasons to be human.

HETEPU

Edgar Erebus
03-05-2010, 06:16 PM
@ drunken monk & Sativahh:

Funnily enough, I hadn't insulted no one by name, I insulted religions, yet you had to resort to insulting me personally.


@ Sham-ILL:

Yeah, but Qur'an also states:

"O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding."
(surah 8, ayet 65)

Yeah, to me my worship, but you'll kill me if I practice it.



@ prof zooruka:

Sure. I have given up on Jesus, and I had continued to be on my way. So what's your point?



@ klege:

Repped.



@ Mr. Muhammad:

Misfire, dude, there is no such thing as non-religion. See, I haven't got faith (belief without proof) in anything, so I am not even negatively religious. As I said, you shot a blank. Thanks.



@ Sunny:

Yes it is, man. Yes, it is.



@ knowcheeze:

I get them a lot, no need, thanks.



@ theheavens:

5% have all attributes of a religion. For starters, they have their core belief, that white man is devil. If you follow their reasoning, they didn't come to that conclusion by deduction or induction, instead they postulated that belief and did everything in their power to logically prove it. Pretty much the same what Christianity keeps on doing, inventing dogmas and trying to find whatever far-fetched proof for them.

Not to mention aggressively trying to spread their belief, which no philosophy ever attempted of doing.



@ Face of a Golden Falcon (post 2):

You sure that there would a lot of other ideas which could make so many people behave in so brutal way? I'm sure religion killed more people than any country or any ideology - especially because it too often infiltrates into those other, it's so powerful.

Jihad, Crusades, blessing of arms before battles, army chaplains, etc. etc.

Face of the Golden Falcon
03-05-2010, 07:28 PM
P.E.A.C.E and Blessings Slim T...

Religion never killed anyone. This is fact. People have killed people for religious reasons, but behind those religious reasons is an underlying weakness in humanity. It was addressing this weakness that was the initial reason for religion.

Religion in it's current form is a effect of humanity.

We need to treat the cause.

HETEPU

LORD NOSE
03-05-2010, 07:29 PM
good thread - my judgment was off when i deleted the first one

Uncle Steezo
03-05-2010, 07:57 PM
See, I haven't got faith (belief without proof) in anything

what do you consider God to be?
what would you consider to be proof of God?
how would that proof change your perspective on life?



do you extend this philosophy into other aspects of life besides the divine?
if so, how do you verify things you haven't experienced?
who's word do you take for truth in these situations?

LORD NOSE
03-05-2010, 08:03 PM
plus


Originally Posted by Slim T http://www.wutang-corp.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.wutang-corp.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1831959#post1831959)
See, I haven't got faith (belief without proof) in anything



no one has proof that the woman they call moms is actually their mother

hmmm

that type of thinking would eventually detach everyone from everyone


from nuclear family to what ?

Edgar Erebus
03-06-2010, 05:19 AM
P.E.A.C.E and Blessings Slim T...

Religion never killed anyone. This is fact. People have killed people for religious reasons, but behind those religious reasons is an underlying weakness in humanity. It was addressing this weakness that was the initial reason for religion.

Religion in it's current form is a effect of humanity.

We need to treat the cause.

HETEPU

True. But the problem is, if you are, say, a Muslim and kill someone because you wanted to take his garments, you are a murderer and a bad man. If you're a Muslim and kill someone because he's Christian, you are fighter against infidels and a good man. Same applies to Christians and every other religion.

About that weakness, it has a nice name, ignorance, not humanity. If you're ignorant you're more likely to believe stupid shit like the one I just mentioned.

Edgar Erebus
03-06-2010, 05:31 AM
what do you consider God to be?
what would you consider to be proof of God?
how would that proof change your perspective on life?



do you extend this philosophy into other aspects of life besides the divine?
if so, how do you verify things you haven't experienced?
who's word do you take for truth in these situations?

I consider God not to be.

Proof of God to me would be that I actually see the guy and that I actually see the way he does whatever he does.

I don't know how would that change my perspective of life. I mean, how was I supposed to know how much would I like sex before sexing?

Yes, I do extend this philosophy into other aspects of life. If something can't be 100 proved, I'm inclined to believe the simplest, most elegant and most reasonable explanation UNTIL there appears a better one. But I don't have faith in it. Instead I would just like to research the most I can about that particular aspect, in order to get my experience and find the truth. Faith is giving up truth-searching in order for someone's explanation.

And I don't take nobody's word for absolute truth, simply because nobody knows it. But I can take someone with good arguments as having a satisfying explanation. Which can become unsatisfying an a blink of an eye.



plus




no one has proof that the woman they call moms is actually their mother

hmmm

that type of thinking would eventually detach everyone from everyone


from nuclear family to what ?

Oh, very simply, you can just make mitochondrial DNA check (which completely transfers from mother into son) and get your complete proof.

But being someone's biological father/mother is different than being someone's actual father/mother. The people I call my parents, whether they are actually my parents or not, gave me lots of caring and loving and because of that I'll always call them my parents and I will never get detached from them until someone of us dies. I would continue to call them my parents even if I get a 100 proof I'm not actually their son.

zooruka
03-06-2010, 06:41 AM
what do you consider God to be?
what would you consider to be proof of God?
how would that proof change your perspective on life?



do you extend this philosophy into other aspects of life besides the divine?
if so, how do you verify things you haven't experienced?
who's word do you take for truth in these situations?


Nice

repped +



peace be with you !

Cthulhu
03-06-2010, 01:03 PM
Against the Dictatorship of Allah:
Declaration of the Surrealists of Pakistan (in exile), circa 1978



We spit on the whole dumb charade disguised as common sense, reason, logic, realism and rationalism of the "enlightened" spectators of human misery known as scientists, bureaucrats, politicians, professors, industrialists, patriots, soldiers and pimps of literature who - foolishly playing hide-and-seek with each other and with everybody else, and amusingly committed to nothing but the perpetration of their cruel and heartless regimes - hide behind the hideous and putrefying carcass of Islam.

Only by maintaining an incessant vigilance of desire will we be able to destroy such vermin, as well as the decadent notions they uphold: repressive morality, salvation, work, discipline, the fatherland, piety, sacrifice, the family and "national unity".

***

We shall show no mercy toward Islam, this 1400-year-old tyranny. We shall ceaselessly injure the reputations of all the degenerate opportunists who continue to propound it.

We shall curse and abuse this vainglorious affliction which is only a petty variation of the Judeo-Christian, Greco-Roman heritage that underlies all the modern-day eccrinologies of scum known more or less synonymously as capitalism, stalinism, maoism, fascism, nazism, parliamentarianism, constitutionalism, democracy and all other irrelevant and egregiously imbecile terms designed solely to embalm, embellish and perpetuate the intrinsic slavery of a moronic and senile social order.

***

In the spirit of joyously impious wizardry and implacably subversive fraternity, we are prepared to join forces with any and all who express, in theory and practice, their unreservedly revolutionary opposition to all systems of exploitation and humiliation.

We shall support all those who, wherever they may be, raise "insolent questions and ruthless challenges", and who "see what everyone else prefers not to see": all those "irreconciliable recalcitrants who continue to fling in the face of bourgeois law and order messages of thoroughgoing demoralization, insults, blasphemies, imprecations and threats, and who do not conceal the fact that they are out to make life as miserable as possible for everyone who pretends to be satisfied with things as they are"
(Franklin Rosemont, "The Crisis of the Imagination", in Arsenal / Surrealist Subversion No. 2, 1973).

The inexpungible exorbitance of our unending and necessarily impetuous wrath will rapturously obliterate the virulently mendacious outpourings of that blithering and shameful image of oppression, Allah, as well as all his filthy seraphim.

***

With all of struggling humanity we spit on the divinity of Allah! The Kaaba will be surrounded and burned!

Meanwhile, our albatrosses - emblems of our inspired revenge - will telekinetically swell our desires, and yours, as they fly indolently over the salty seas filled by the blood and tears of all oppressors!

DOG FUCK GOD

Surrealists love blasphemy. In our case we are happy to admit that this is not least because of the thoroughly infantile pleasure we take in offending those we despise, in smearing shit on their idols: in actuality, we wear our infantilism with pride, and regard all erotic pleasures of this sort as valid political currency in their own right.

But for surrealists blasphemy is a crucial political weapon, not just because of the distress it causes to the religious institutions and their millions of dupes, but also because of the disarray into which it throws the apologists of the liberal ‘democratic’ state whose so-called defences of liberty are thereby unmasked as hypocrisy.

When examining the current furore over European newspaper cartoons of Mohammed, we prefer to start not from ‘freedom of speech’ as an abstract liberal principle but from a recollection of the actual events. The recourse to abstract principle – to wishful thinking about what the world ought to be like rather than an assessment of what the world is actually like – is a standard manoeuvre of liberal argumentation, and as such we reject it. Let us then be clear from the outset that the publication of these cartoons in a despicable right-wing Danish newspaper was a racist act deliberately intended to provoke a reaction from muslims. Perhaps the ferocity with which certain politicised muslim constituencies worldwide have risen to the bait has taken the protagonists by surprise, in which case they might justly be regarded as naive, but naivety is not innocence.

In the wake of this provocation, wholly predictable battle lines between the ‘religious’ Middle East and the ‘secular’ West have been reaffirmed, and thousands around the world have dug into their entrenched positions. This ‘clash of civilisations’ manoeuvre serves only the interests of militarism, imperialism and state power, and surrealists are not about to fall into line with it by defending ‘western’ values. In our view neither ‘eastern’ nor ‘western’ civilisation is worthy of the name, and we would wholeheartedly welcome their immediate mutual destruction.

From our vantage point in the UK, the double-bind in which both the press and the government now find themselves has highlighted the extent to which all talk of ‘rights’ and ‘freedoms’ under the liberal state is, quite simply, bullshit. The Foreign Secretary Jack Straw, for example, has affirmed the right to free speech (how generous of him!) while declaring that that right should not be used to insult or cause offence. In other words, you have the right to free speech, but you do not necessarily have the right to exercise it. The mantra of ‘respect’ and ‘responsibility’ has been repeated by press and politicians alike, and it demonstrates that the so-called basic rights and freedoms of liberalism are in reality little more than favours for which we are expected to be grateful and which we should not mistake for genuine possessions to be used at will.

We therefore have little interest in defending free speech as it exists in our society, the tawdry gift of a hypocritical ‘democracy’. Surrealists are unruly children who say what we like regardless of whether the grown-ups grant us permission. Nor are we about to support the right-wing and/or liberal press just because it engages in blasphemy, any more than we support muslim protestors just because they set fire to the outposts and symbols of European states.

The goals of surrealism are to change life and transform the world.

To change life means the total destruction of all forms of religion, not just religion as institutions and material powers but also as a set of private beliefs which are, quite plainly and without exception, a pack of lies. In pursuit of this goal we urge all people to revolt, to blaspheme, to voice their contempt for all religions worldwide.

To transform the world means the total destruction of what currently passes for ‘western’ civilisation, with its alienation, exploitation, militarism, patriarchy, racism and self-destructive anthropocentrism, no less than the total destruction of all forms of religious law, Islamic or otherwise. In pursuit of this goal we urge all people to seize their own freedom and to fight their oppression, whatever form it takes, with all the weapons at their disposal.

Both of these goals entail the abolition of the state, whether in its secular or its religious guises: the state is the enemy of all life on earth, and anyone who looks to the state either to guarantee her/his freedom or to protect her/his dignity is nothing other than a fool.

Surrealists stand up for blasphemy, but not as a token of ‘freedom’ under a liberal regime, nor even as a simple expression of secularism: blasphemy can only have any sense or value for us insofar as it is part of a wider movement of total revolt, in the pursuit of genuine freedom – the eroticisation of the world, the everyday incarnation of poetry, the permanent revolution of Mad Love, in short, the unending, ecstatic explosion of THE MARVELLOUS.


SLAG ~ SURREALIST LONDON ACTION GROUP.

Cthulhu
03-06-2010, 01:27 PM
L'Age d'Or d. Luis Buñuel, co-written by Salvador Dalí
8YXKPKI0JK8
5:00 starts the infamous scene that sparked fascist riots and got the film banned in France for decades.

The Devils d. Ken Russell
b3BiW3fLc2U
Notorious "Rape of Christ" scene censored from original theatrical release.

Lunacy (Czech title: Sileni) d. Jan Švankmajer
tU_r5FlPyM8
Unfortunately this doesn't have English subtitles, although the DVD isn't too had to find. Still, visuals are worth it.

Uncle Steezo
03-06-2010, 01:34 PM
I consider God not to be.

Proof of God to me would be that I actually see the guy and that I actually see the way he does whatever he does.

God is not a person but God exists within the spectrum of visible light as well as beyond.

i bet If I were to point God out to you you would not accept it as proof.

This is a tricky situation. i would be inclined to think that your science of life is biased for reasons other than lack of proof.

I don't know how would that change my perspective of life. I mean, how was I supposed to know how much would I like sex before sexing?

Fair enough.

Yes, I do extend this philosophy into other aspects of life. If something can't be 100 proved, I'm inclined to believe the simplest, most elegant and most reasonable explanation UNTIL there appears a better one. But I don't have faith in it. Instead I would just like to research the most I can about that particular aspect, in order to get my experience and find the truth. Faith is giving up truth-searching in order for someone's explanation.


Faith is the foundation of truth searching. think about it. if a scientist doesn't have faith in his hypothesis, which is a declaration without proof, there wouldn't be a need/desire to confirm or deny it. what if science didn't have faith in a unifying theory? would they still spend every waking moment to find one?



And I don't take nobody's word for absolute truth, simply because nobody knows it. But I can take someone with good arguments as having a satisfying explanation. Which can become unsatisfying an a blink of an eye.
this sounds like a politically correct definition of faith.
because that satisfying explanation shapes your perspective and influences your actions. it helps to define your reality. yeah it can change, but so has religion.

have you seen a star collapse on itself? ever felt a gamma ray? ever measured the speed of shifting tectonic plates? when's the last time your pet evolved? (no pokemon)






everyone knows the truth.
if it happened, then it's true.

i say this to plenty of atheists, "its not God that you don't believe in, you just don't believe in the way he's described."

Uncle Steezo
03-06-2010, 01:40 PM
cthulu, that surrealist manifesto is silly.
you know why, but if you need me to remind, you i will.

Come Honor Face
03-06-2010, 02:55 PM
"its not God that you don't believe in, you just don't believe in the way he's described."

Wrong. I just believe that people are just another animal, and that no animals were created by a higher being. We're just the smartest animals on earth.. I believe in evolution. I do not believe in the concept of there being a god at all.

Undiluted Karma
03-06-2010, 03:09 PM
Each to their own, just let it be known that theres knowledge jewels to be found in all religions.

If you're opposed to religion fully(or partly) because of the evils assoicated with it, like Vatican persecuting non Catholics, then remember then there have been evil Atheists too (i.e Stalin)

Cthulhu
03-06-2010, 04:25 PM
cthulu, that surrealist manifesto is silly.
you know why, but if you need me to remind, you i will.

Which one? I posted two.

You may enlighten me.

Cthulhu
03-06-2010, 04:42 PM
Each to their own, just let it be known that theres knowledge jewels to be found in all religions.

If you're opposed to religion fully(or partly) because of the evils assoicated with it, like Vatican persecuting non Catholics, then remember then there have been evil Atheists too (i.e Stalin)

Except Stalin didn't persecute people in the name of atheism, as if there was one ideology that encompassed it. That's the problem with this equivocation. Even if we can say Stalin was killing in service of the atheistic ideology of Communism (which many would take issue with, since Stalin's dictatorship was a far cry from a Communist ideal, whether you agree with that ideal or not).... even if we could say he did it in service of Communism, one still can't say that represent atheism by proxy.

Atheism is simply a lack of belief in gods. It may overlap with a number of atheistic ideologies, but there is no unified atheist philosophy that a crime could be said to be done in the name of. Furthermore, Stalin's regime, and nearly any dictatorship with a cult of personality share a number of things with relgion, including the suppression of reason that is critical of the power holders.

Additionally, the actions of a particular person in no way compromise the truth validity of a claim. Just as Catholics would not believe that the corruption rampant in the Vatican would compromise the truth of God, so no bonafide atheist is going to deny his stance on god because someone sharing his disbelief commits crimes in its "name."

Now you might say that the scandals and persecutions done under the Catholic Church don't necessarily come from their professed beliefs, but by corruptions of them, and I might not necessarily disgree with you. The point of attacking such institutions for their transgressions is to point at that the pious exterior they keep up and the supposedly transformative power of the beliefs they promote are just as subject to base human behaviors as anyone else.

I can't speak for any other atheist, but I'm also of the opinion that the beliefs of Catholicism also engender their historical intolerance and current state of corruption and sexual scandals, but I'm done typing for now. In short then, I oppose various religious organizations because 1.) I find ther claims to be completely unconvincing and often absurd, and 2.) their beliefs stultify critical thinking and helps engender the various excesses and crimes that may be associated with them (i.e. you may argue that Muslims who stone women for being raped are not really following the religion, to which I would counter that Islam's general attitude toward women still engenders that kind of culture).

Mumm Ra
03-06-2010, 05:53 PM
"its not God that you don't believe in, you just don't believe in the way he's described." Wrong. I just believe that people are just another animal, and that no animals were created by a higher being.
that's only one way he's described buddy
you still have a singular preconceived notion of what god is (not) suppose to be

theheavens
03-06-2010, 09:04 PM
I don't think any atheist (Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin) killed people for the sake of atheism. ethnic, social, economic reasons -- sure. but not over atheism

Uncle Steezo
03-06-2010, 09:43 PM
I don't think any atheist (Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin) killed people for the sake of atheism. ethnic, social, economic reasons -- sure. but not over atheism
what makes you think that religious murder/wars didn't have the same motivation?
you really think that religion was the reason for the crusades or scientific suppression by the catholic church?

money and the power money and the power....

Cthulhu
03-06-2010, 10:05 PM
what makes you think that religious murder/wars didn't have the same motivation?
you really think that religion was the reason for the crusades or scientific suppression by the catholic church?

money and the power money and the power....

And I'll reiterate the basic idea I was getting at in my giant post above - religion may not be the sole reason, but it is one of the best aids in justifying oppression at the hands of a powerful ruling body. Futhermore, it's "innocence" or "guilt" still has nothing to do with the validity of its assertions. Of course I don't have much of a problem with peaceful and humanist activities engendered by religion, but I still consider the motivation to be based on unverifiable - and probably false - assertions.

I don't consider religion to be an independent entity from the rest of human sociology. It's of course a symptom as well as a cause. And yes, there were certainly political factors involved in the crusades and scientific oppression, but it would also be extremely naive to assert that the political motivations weren't intimately intertwined with Catholic Christian theology in both of those cases.

diggy
03-06-2010, 10:45 PM
What even qualifies some people to speak on this subject?

What knowledge/experience do y'all have?

How much have you read on religions (from their sources)?


I see a lot of opinions, not much facts. A lot of biases, not much logic.

Uncle Steezo
03-07-2010, 05:05 AM
I still consider the motivation to be based on unverifiable - and probably false - assertions.

it would also be extremely naive to assert that the political motivations weren't intimately intertwined with Catholic Christian theology in both of those cases.


these 2 statements i strongly disagree with.

1. a being that expresses, omniscience, omnipotence, omniprescence and omnibenevolence can be verified.

2. everything is intertwined. the american spirit/pride is intertwined with the war on terror (crusade). if you catch my drift. it is a control mechanism employed by those in power.
same mission, same region, new motivator.



i equate destroying religion in an effort to end injustice, to banning weapons to end murder.

Frank Sobotka
03-07-2010, 09:12 AM
I see a lot of opinions, not much facts. A lot of biases, not much logic.
That sums up religion pretty well

Uncle Steezo
03-07-2010, 11:35 AM
That sums up religion pretty well
fighting fire with fire?

religion is multidimensional.
if the surface seems illogical and fanciful, then its time to scratch it.
try it, you'd be surprised.

i've gone back and forth about religion.
i was building with a few cats in detroit last week, ended up resparking my interest in jesus. not as a deity, but as a way of life. jesus was an opponent of religion, nations and classes. he tried to shift the paradigm of the time. i can dig it.

Cthulhu
03-07-2010, 12:32 PM
these 2 statements i strongly disagree with.

1. a being that expresses, omniscience, omnipotence, omniprescence and omnibenevolence can be verified.

2. everything is intertwined. the american spirit/pride is intertwined with the war on terror (crusade). if you catch my drift. it is a control mechanism employed by those in power.
same mission, same region, new motivator.



i equate destroying religion in an effort to end injustice, to banning weapons to end murder.

I'm not suggesting we destroy religion. In fact I think that's probably impossible. I do believe that harmful, irrational beliefs deserve to be openly denounced without fear of offending people (or worse, depending on the country you live in).

Come Honor Face
03-07-2010, 01:08 PM
^^^This.

Frank Sobotka
03-07-2010, 01:47 PM
fighting fire with fire?

religion is multidimensional.
if the surface seems illogical and fanciful, then its time to scratch it.
try it, you'd be surprised.

i've gone back and forth about religion.
i was building with a few cats in detroit last week, ended up resparking my interest in jesus. not as a deity, but as a way of life. jesus was an opponent of religion, nations and classes. he tried to shift the paradigm of the time. i can dig it.
I'm talking about the religion, not the original ideology, which is usually good untill people start using it for control of the masses & personal gain

TheBoarzHeadBoy
03-07-2010, 02:03 PM
Here's the thing.

A Scientific Law dictates What is going on.
A Scientific Theory dictates How it is going on.
Religion is there to explain the Why it is going on.

Uncle Steezo
03-07-2010, 02:07 PM
Here's the thing.

A Scientific Law dictates What is going on.
A Scientific Theory dictates How it is going on.
Religion is there to explain the Why it is going on.
short sweet and to the point.


here bro.....u earned it.
http://www.thefoodsection.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/12/09/cookie.jpg

LORD NOSE
03-07-2010, 02:25 PM
jesus was an opponent of religion, nations and classes. he tried to shift the paradigm of the time. i can dig it.

we diss the ones in our midst today who are doing just that

and run to the mythical saviors tactics - the complexity of their stories make us think that they are more than what they were


let us start greeting us when we see us in the streets

diggy
03-07-2010, 08:34 PM
jesus was an opponent of religion, nations and classes. he tried to shift the paradigm of the time. i can dig it.

Exactly.

I'm talking about the religion, not the original ideology, which is usually good untill people start using it for control of the masses & personal gain

I understand.

I also understand that a lot of good gets categorized as religion when it's not.

Still though, there is a tendency for subjects to be spoken about without knowledge of them.

I'm just wondering what are others knowledge of this subject cuz I suspect there is close to none.

Face of the Golden Falcon
03-08-2010, 12:12 AM
True. But the problem is, if you are, say, a Muslim and kill someone because you wanted to take his garments, you are a murderer and a bad man. If you're a Muslim and kill someone because he's Christian, you are fighter against infidels and a good man. Same applies to Christians and every other religion.

About that weakness, it has a nice name, ignorance, not humanity. If you're ignorant you're more likely to believe stupid shit like the one I just mentioned.

I said there was an underlying weakness in humanity, not that the weakness is humanity.

We agree. The weakness is ignorance. But that ignorance also has atheists believing stupid shit as well. Which shows that the problem is ignorance not religion. Focusing on religion is kin to taking pain killer to relieve a headache when you have the flu and believing you're curing the flu because the headache is gone and you feel better.

HETEPU

Sham-iLL
03-08-2010, 12:59 AM
@ Sham-ILL:

Yeah, but Qur'an also states:

"O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding."
(surah 8, ayet 65)

Yeah, to me my worship, but you'll kill me if I practice it.


If you had read the whole sura (e.g. Read the preceding and upcoming ayats), then you would understand that the context of the surah is not an instruction to Muslims to carry on during all time.

The surah refers to the historical 'Battle of Badr' and 'Battle of Uhud'.
The enemies were just called unbelievers.

It's like if we take the setting in time to World War II and there is an American military general screaming "don't trust any Germans, we have to kill them no matter what!"
of course the context will not be to kill every single national German citizen for the rest of the course of history, rather the context is this is war and in order to win we must kill Nazi soldiers who are opposing us, and they happen to be German so we call them German.

In conclusion,
the surah refers to the unbelievers that were in war against the Muslims. Even when in war, Muslims need to follow certain guidelines when killing. For example, no killing women, children, and civilians that do not have anything to do with the battle. After the battles were won, the unbelievers lived in the Muslim-ruled areas and were not punished. The only argument you can have is that the non-Muslim people had to pay a small tax for being non-Muslim, or 'unbelivers'.

If it were an instruction for Muslims to kill unbelievers forever then at the time of victory after the Battle/War, Muhammad would have told the Muslims to murder the rest of the Unbelievers, but that did not happen, instead they lived together and those that were tired of paying taxes for being non-Muslims decided to convert.

So no, I do not have to kill you for your worship of something else or for your non-worship at all.

To you, your own.
Peace.

Frank Sobotka
03-08-2010, 05:25 AM
http://pictures.mastermarf.com/blog/2009/090330-dark-ages-550.jpg

LORD NOSE
03-10-2010, 01:24 PM
We're just the smartest animals on earth..


lmao - all of us ain't animals

us - the smartest on earth ?

nah man

Come Honor Face
03-11-2010, 08:16 AM
lmao - all of us ain't animals

us - the smartest on earth ?

nah man

Please explain this post. You got an animal in mind that you believe is smarter than humans? lol

SID
03-11-2010, 09:00 AM
Sunny has a special mind.

praise the almitey W
03-11-2010, 11:41 AM
first of all i believe in a god but i dont go to church because i hate all the asshole christians trying to force their religion on everyone else you dont have to be a certain religion to belive in a god. and second of all were forgetting about scientologists the most ignorant religion ever thought up and mormons also retards who think they know some shit.

WARPATH
03-12-2010, 02:30 PM
Please explain this post. You got an animal in mind that you believe is smarter than humans? lol

Dolphins. They're up there.

Frank Sobotka
03-12-2010, 02:47 PM
if we weren't the smartest we'd be pets

Face of the Golden Falcon
03-12-2010, 06:33 PM
^
Why do you assume smart = domination over?

...and a lot of you have problems reading.

Sunny said we're not all animals and that we aren't the smartest on earth.

He didn't say there is an animal smarter, just that we aren't the smartest on this planet.

HETEPU

Come Honor Face
03-12-2010, 09:13 PM
We're not animals? lol So exactly why are there so many animals that have the same organs we have? How are they animals, and we're not? What an arrogant thing to say!

Face of the Golden Falcon
03-12-2010, 10:43 PM
Why is it arrogant? You're the one who posted this:

You got an animal in mind that you believe is smarter than humans? lol

It just depends on what part of you is the part you identify with? I don't wish to identify with just my physical body (which is animalistic in nature). We have things about us that set us apart from animals.

I cant answer for Sunny though even though I agree with what he wrote.

HETEPU

Mumm Ra
03-12-2010, 10:46 PM
well if you wanna get technical like that you could say anything that is animated is an animal. even rocks n shit give off electromagnetic energy
but i think its pretty obvious that humans are distinctly set apart from all else because of free will
i dont consider myself an animal

Come Honor Face
03-12-2010, 11:00 PM
I'm just sayin, I don't see any other animals accomplish the things that human beings do. We do have things that make us different from other animals. Imo, the things that set us apart are basically due to the very fact that we are the smartest animals on earth. We also seem to fear death more than other animals. A lot of people are gullible as shit. Combine those 3 things with a few head-case type people that have good leadership skills, and speak well, and you get religion.

Face of the Golden Falcon
03-12-2010, 11:13 PM
What does it mean to be smart though?

Humans do some pretty stupid things. Things that no animal would do.

Animals, and this is obvious through simple observation, have an inbuilt intelligence specific to the role they play in the universe and their survival.

This is something that humans have as well, except we aren't limited by it the way animals are. As Mumm Ra said we have free will. We have the choice to go against or to live by that inbuilt intelligence.

Why do we have this ability (free will) when no other being does?

The answer sheds light on our true identity and role in the universe.

HETEPU

CHRONZ
03-17-2010, 05:57 PM
3Z4yc1jO5ZI

Cee Oh Vee
03-21-2010, 06:58 AM
if we weren't the smartest we'd be pets

Best post on the thread.

Think about it.

Uncle Steezo
03-21-2010, 07:59 AM
3Z4yc1jO5ZI
thats my boy. back in the day we used to run the same open mic circuits.
Best post on the thread.

Think about it.

who's to say that we aren't pets?

think about it.

Cee Oh Vee
03-22-2010, 11:16 AM
who's to say that we aren't pets?

think about it.

My thoughts, exactly...

I'd say we are, from a certain perspective.

Peace.

Clan Destine
03-25-2010, 12:06 AM
What does it mean to be smart though?

Humans do some pretty stupid things. Things that no animal would do.

Animals, and this is obvious through simple observation, have an inbuilt intelligence specific to the role they play in the universe and their survival.

This is something that humans have as well, except we aren't limited by it the way animals are. As Mumm Ra said we have free will. We have the choice to go against or to live by that inbuilt intelligence.

Why do we have this ability (free will) when no other being does?

The answer sheds light on our true identity and role in the universe.

HETEPU

How do you know other beings don't have free will?

How do you know you have a free will?

How do you know free will is a true thing?


Even if you can imagine 2 or more things in your head, you can only pick one, and will have always and only been able to perform that action. An alien may look at you the way you look at an animal and think you are a natural automaton.

As far as humans go, I wouldn't say we were necessarily intelligent (not yet at least) but creative or imaginative. We can make shit up, whether it be a tool, a strategy, a moral or a religion, but this clearly does not guarantee our species' survival.

Face of the Golden Falcon
03-25-2010, 03:04 AM
How do you know other beings don't have free will?

How do you know you have a free will?

How do you know free will is a true thing?

Free will is discussed in this thread if you want my thoughts on it.

http://www.wutang-corp.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1559016&postcount=23

Even if you can imagine 2 or more things in your head, you can only pick one, and will have always and only been able to perform that action.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "and only been able to".

An alien may look at you the way you look at an animal and think you are a natural automaton.

Maybe. Considering the fact that few utilize their free will I would understand if they made that assumption. Ultimately though, if they came to that conclusion about Human's I'd say it was just sloppy observational skills.


HETEPU

Clan Destine
03-25-2010, 10:43 PM
Can you elaborate on what you mean by "and only been able to".


Even though you think you can see multiple avenues of action, you can only pick the one. That choice, and even your vision of the multiple choices arises from the inevitable link of causal affairs (assuming you believe in causality). With a refined science it would be possible to predict your every action. Though we perceive all choice as contingent upon or will at any moment, we will have only been able to act out an inevitability, that is, from a view of a prescient past, your 'will' is utterly restrained.



Maybe. Considering the fact that few utilize their free will I would understand if they made that assumption. Ultimately though, if they came to that conclusion about Human's I'd say it was just sloppy observational skills.



I would just say you may very well be making the same mistakes in observations of animals and other humans. In the end there is absolutely no way to penetrate another beings subjectivity.


Man has the ability to make decisions and act out of a state of unwavering peace, devoid of prejudice, attachment, emotionality etc. Animals cannot do this. They will/must always act out of inbuilt desires, instincts (whatever you want to call them). That being said, most humans don't use their free will and, like you said, end up being guided by natural principles of preservation and gratification.


Any act presupposes a desire and an attachment. Even an act away from desire. So long as we care to act our will is unfree. A will is by its nature unfree. Just Because we may have different instincts and desires than animals is does not make our actions autonomous from causality.

To bring this back to religion, I would just say that any metaphysical system the parcels punishment or reward based on the performance of an individual's 'free will' is based in error. It is a cruel god that creates something and punishes it for being what it is.