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SID
03-10-2010, 08:15 AM
Do you believe in the spirits survival upon the death of the human body?

What is your view of the afterlife?

Is it scientificaly plausible?

How can you achieve this state of existence?



I personally believe that the concsiousness must be built up during life, must be upgraded and evolved in order to survive "death", i think people who disregard their potential of the concsiouness and focus on material worldy concepts will not survive death.

I personally believe our conciousness is a network interlinked to all sentient beings, i believe it is energy that will transmutate upon death of host, to find a new host, or in buddhist philosophy be one with the universe upon reaching Moshka.

You must see past the veil during your earthly existense, even a glimpse will prepare you enough for the metamorphosis i believe this glimpse into enlightenment can be attained through meditation, self control, selflessness and divine sacrements.

When i die i want a sky burial, a buddhist tradition where our body is placed on a high plinth to be eaten by the vultures, who then carry you away in different directions, your vessel lies inside them, bringing the sustience to their newborn.

*shifts back into normal conscious state

Frank Sobotka
03-10-2010, 08:31 AM
No.

Only thing close might be a final dream that your body produces from leftover energy.

SID
03-10-2010, 09:09 AM
What makes you so sure?

Frank Sobotka
03-10-2010, 09:47 AM
What makes you so sure?
Nothing magical like that happens during life, why would it start after?

SID
03-10-2010, 10:07 AM
Are you telling me you havent felt people watching you even though your backs turned?

You have never felt someones energy when they enter the room?

TheBoarzHeadBoy
03-10-2010, 03:08 PM
Lol. Our brains generate electricity and our bodies release chemicals. It's not so far out of the possible to suggest our nervous systems and senses are sharp enough to pick up these energy transmissions within a relatively short distance. We can think what we want, but it's not that outside the realm of possibility. Dogs can follow scents better then we can, it's not unlikely that we can with our more developed brains pick up on other people's thoughts. It's like if someone had a wireless hub and two computers were using it for internet. They'd be aware that another computer is there. They're transmitting energy and such. So it's noticeable but not very. Very sensitive brains might be able to pick up a bit more then that. We can call them psychics, but they're just more sensitive to electro magnetism or whatever.

So if someone is focused on you and they're pretty close you might feel anxious because we evolved to pick up their brain transmissions so that we don't get ambushed by predators. It's just an age old thing. It's like how my dog seems like its looking at stuff that's not there, but I'm sure she's picking up stuff we don't because our senses are on different levels. She might hear something far away and cock her head and we'll think she's being dumb since she's randomly staring at a wall, but its not the wall she's focused on.

Longbongcilvaringz
03-10-2010, 03:28 PM
Every notion anyone has of a soul, spirit, internal energy etc. has been generated by activity from within their brain.

The concept of an afterlife, some propose, serves an evolutionary purpose. Hence why religious societies have prospered.

People are more than willing to sacrifice themselves (literally or conceptually) for the greater good, if the promise of an afterlife is embedded in their minds.

Evolutionarily, these groups of people who had the ability to tolerate the shittiest of lives, were much more successful.

Unfortunately, that's kind of where it end.

Intuition, deja vu and other quirks of the brain are just that. Easily accounted for quirks.

The brain ceases to function, it decays, and with so do our grand visions of post life and spirituality.

A harsh reality i guess.

SID
03-10-2010, 04:44 PM
Yes our body decomposes, it rots, within 6 weeks it will be covered in millions of parasites and insects, within years it will be stripped bare with only the skeleton left, but who said that's THE END.

Very little is known about consciousness in the scientific world, it has been boggling the minds of scientists for a vast millenia i believe it is yet to be evolved to it's full potential, we only tap into about 5% brain power, Einstein used 6% and founded the principles that make up the universe.

It is more then electrical signals, it is verging on the parapsychological, we just haven't tapped into it yet.

Energy never dies.

I'm too lean to carry this on, but you catch my drift...

LoTec
03-10-2010, 05:40 PM
Ive never died and I never will, because I am light and love. Im a spiritual being haveing a human experiance right now. When this vessel breaks I'll probably get in another one because I dont truely know myself. Hopefully one day I will. As Shallah said to even catch a glimpse of reality can set one free but catching that glimpse is very very hard.

SID
03-10-2010, 05:42 PM
From one human being to to another i wish you luck on your journey....

Cthulhu
03-10-2010, 06:52 PM
Energy never "dies" but the components of your consciousness aren't pure disorganized energy, but a highly complex network of cells, signals, and chemicals that need your brain matter to exist. When your brain matter decays, that energy is converted into something else, but it's not an organized consciousness anymore. "You" cease to exist at that point. I think this is a pretty obvious concept to grasp.

Just think of people with brain damage or in vegetative states. Whatever has malfunctioned in their brain has completely changed their consciousness. Terry Shaivo was physically (though artificially) alive, but her conscious brain activity was dead. For all intents and purposes, "Terry Shaivo" ceased to exist. Phineas Gage was in an accident that caused an iron rod to launch into his head and destroy part of his frontal lobes. He survived, but he became a completely different person afterward.

So let me ask you. If you believe in the afterlife, which Phineas Gage survived death? The old Phineas Gage or the new one? Does only a fraction of a brain damaged person's energy go to the afterlife? (Since dying is the equivalent of 100% brain damage).

zooruka
03-10-2010, 10:34 PM
I believe in God and his promise of an eternal life for those who do good and eternal punishment for those who do evil..and for those who say it`s all b.s remember.....


JESUS LIVES !!!!!!!!!!!!!


peace be with you !

LoTec
03-10-2010, 11:12 PM
From one human being to to another i wish you luck on your journey....

Thats whats up.......same to you........Peace

Longbongcilvaringz
03-11-2010, 03:01 AM
Yes our body decomposes, it rots, within 6 weeks it will be covered in millions of parasites and insects, within years it will be stripped bare with only the skeleton left, but who said that's THE END.

Very little is known about consciousness in the scientific world, it has been boggling the minds of scientists for a vast millenia i believe it is yet to be evolved to it's full potential, we only tap into about 5% brain power, Einstein used 6% and founded the principles that make up the universe.

It is more then electrical signals, it is verging on the parapsychological, we just haven't tapped into it yet.

Energy never dies.

I'm too lean to carry this on, but you catch my drift...

Yeah, i catch you drift, and no one can definitively say what happens after death.

I'm only basing my conclusion on reasoning, while other conclusions are based on either faith or intuition.

No one is wrong or right, because no on knows what is right.

Longbongcilvaringz
03-11-2010, 03:04 AM
Energy never "dies" but the components of your consciousness aren't pure disorganized energy, but a highly complex network of cells, signals, and chemicals that need your brain matter to exist. When your brain matter decays, that energy is converted into something else, but it's not an organized consciousness anymore. "You" cease to exist at that point. I think this is a pretty obvious concept to grasp.

Just think of people with brain damage or in vegetative states. Whatever has malfunctioned in their brain has completely changed their consciousness. Terry Shaivo was physically (though artificially) alive, but her conscious brain activity was dead. For all intents and purposes, "Terry Shaivo" ceased to exist. Phineas Gage was in an accident that caused an iron rod to launch into his head and destroy part of his frontal lobes. He survived, but he became a completely different person afterward.

So let me ask you. If you believe in the afterlife, which Phineas Gage survived death? The old Phineas Gage or the new one? Does only a fraction of a brain damaged person's energy go to the afterlife? (Since dying is the equivalent of 100% brain damage).

Ah, Phineas Gage, probably one of the first things they made us study in PSYCH1101.

You make good points.

SID
03-11-2010, 04:15 AM
Yeah, i catch you drift, and no one can definitively say what happens after death.

I'm only basing my conclusion on reasoning, while other conclusions are based on either faith or intuition.

No one is wrong or right, because no on knows what is right.

Fair enough.

I'm basing my viewpoint on reason also, reason and expierence.

What do you personally believe in regards to some form of existence after the death of the body?

Face of the Golden Falcon
03-11-2010, 07:51 PM
Consciousness cannot change or be changed...

HETEPU

Cthulhu
03-11-2010, 10:00 PM
Consciousness cannot change or be changed...

HETEPU

This is preposterously untrue, even in life as we know it. Do you think that sleep and dreaming isn't a change in consciousness or something? What about drunkenness, drug high, or hallucinations?

Face of the Golden Falcon
03-12-2010, 12:02 AM
^ No. They are changes in the vehicle through which the Consciousness perceives "things".

HETEPU

Longbongcilvaringz
03-12-2010, 12:51 AM
Fair enough.

I'm basing my viewpoint on reason also, reason and expierence.

What do you personally believe in regards to some form of existence after the death of the body?

Ever been knocked out?

Your brain is still functioning, but there is complete nothingness.

Well, if there's nothingness simply when your brain experiences trauma, what happens when the brain experiences fatal trauma and stops functioning completely? Unending nothingness.

So no, i don't think they is some kind of ethereal continuation after death. As i said before, everything we think or feel is the result of physical processes. Extinguishing brain power extinguishes these processes.

Consciousness cannot change or be changed...

HETEPU

haha, you say this as if it were an unfuckwittable fact or something.

Face of the Golden Falcon
03-12-2010, 02:06 AM
^
...everyone on this forum states their opinion as if it were an "unfuckwittable fact". I was unaware I had to write IMO before everything I wrote.

Also, I can explain my statement in more depth to make it unfuckwittable if you'd like.

HETEPU

Uncle Steezo
03-12-2010, 03:27 AM
^
...everyone on this forum states their opinion as if it were an "unfuckwittable fact". I was unaware I had to write IMO before everything I wrote.

Also, I can explain my statement in more depth to make it unfuckwittable if you'd like.

HETEPU
yup.

the brain is no different than the heart or lungs. it's function serves the purpose of the host entity to remain in this dimension.

scientists DO believe in places like heaven and hell and nirvana, they call them parallel unverses and invisible dimensions.

spent the most money ever just to make the LHC. the LHC was supposed to find all these "fairy tale" particles and energies. and try to prove that, at one time, everything we know all fit on the point of a pin.


in 2010 we can only detect 4% of our universe. the other 96% is unknown. these are the same folks who tell you God and the soul can't exist cause they can't see it.


dark energy may be the soul, dark matter may be God.

SID
03-12-2010, 04:35 AM
Ever been knocked out?

Your brain is still functioning, but there is complete nothingness.

Well, if there's nothingness simply when your brain experiences trauma, what happens when the brain experiences fatal trauma and stops functioning completely? Unending nothingness.

So no, i don't think they is some kind of ethereal continuation after death. As i said before, everything we think or feel is the result of physical processes. Extinguishing brain power extinguishes these processes.


It is been known for people to dream in a coma and experience some form of awareness, even though it's medically identical to unconciousness, very little brain activity.

This is because a coma is a longer period then being knocked out, which is the bodies way of dealing with the trauma, your not "out" long enough to build up an awareness, death is the longest of the three so judging by that logic you will have flickers of awarness also, in whatever form that may be.

This is all speculation obviously,only death will only yield the true facts.

WARPATH
03-12-2010, 11:22 AM
Every notion anyone has of a soul, spirit, internal energy etc. has been generated by activity from within their brain.

The concept of an afterlife, some propose, serves an evolutionary purpose. Hence why religious societies have prospered.

People are more than willing to sacrifice themselves (literally or conceptually) for the greater good, if the promise of an afterlife is embedded in their minds.

Evolutionarily, these groups of people who had the ability to tolerate the shittiest of lives, were much more successful.

Unfortunately, that's kind of where it end.

Intuition, deja vu and other quirks of the brain are just that. Easily accounted for quirks.

The brain ceases to function, it decays, and with so do our grand visions of post life and spirituality.

A harsh reality i guess.

Has your brain ceased to function? Then how do you know consciousness stops there?

Mai Wang Tu Phat
03-12-2010, 11:27 AM
I have hope, but not belief.

Cthulhu
03-12-2010, 11:29 AM
Has brain ceased to function? Then how do you know consciousness stops there?

Death, by medical definition, is when the brain ceases to function completely. As he and I have been trying to argue, consciousness is not an independent entity from the brain. Your consciousness it made up of a complex interaction of brain structures, chemical reactions, and electrical signals. When all that stops, there is not more consciousness. When the brain becomes damaged or starts to decay after death, those structures are no more.

What you are imagining is that the brain is like the control panel or driver's seat of some vehicle and when the body dies, the consciousness just jumps out and goes on its merry way. I'm trying to tell you that the consciousness is like a film projection or audio recording. You damage the source material, you irreparably damage the image/audio. You destroy the source material, you destroy the entire image/audio. Same thing with consciousness and the brain.

SID
03-12-2010, 11:35 AM
Your saying you know more about consciousness then scientists? even respected neurologists and cognitive scientist specialists are puzzled by the very concept of consciousness, even the definition of the word.

Saying it is "complex electrical signals and nerve endings" means nothing, scientists have not found a lobe where consciousness is active or the original source of it, not like emotion and reasoning, which are located in specific lobes of the brain, consciousness has none, it is an enigma, a mystery.

WARPATH
03-12-2010, 11:56 AM
Death, by medical definition, is when the brain ceases to function completely. As he and I have been trying to argue, consciousness is not an independent entity from the brain. Your consciousness it made up of a complex interaction of brain structures, chemical reactions, and electrical signals. When all that stops, there is not more consciousness. When the brain becomes damaged or starts to decay after death, those structures are no more.

What you are imagining is that the brain is like the control panel or driver's seat of some vehicle and when the body dies, the consciousness just jumps out and goes on its merry way. I'm trying to tell you that the consciousness is like a film projection or audio recording. You damage the source material, you irreparably damage the image/audio. You destroy the source material, you destroy the entire image/audio. Same thing with consciousness and the brain.

I'm not even debating the medical definition or what your saying about damaging "the source material." Damaged or not, consciousness continues, the level of that consciousness depends on your state of mind at the time of death.

Nobody can prove or disprove any of it. Not until we're all dead.

Cthulhu
03-12-2010, 12:22 PM
Your saying you know more about consciousness then scientists? even respected neurologists and cognitive scientist specialists are puzzled by the very concept of consciousness, even the definition of the word.

Saying it is "complex electrical signals and nerve endings" means nothing, scientists have not found a lobe where consciousness is active or the original source of it, not like emotion and reasoning, which are located in specific lobes of the brain, consciousness has none, it is an enigma, a mystery.

There are plenty of scientists that would disagree with you. I'm only basing my opinion on what I've read in scientific articles about the brain. The first mistake you make is thinking that everything has to come from a specific place in the brain. Even though certain structures in the brain are identified in playing a role in reasoning and emotion, they aren't discreet locations. Emotion and reasoning are distributed through various interworking parts of the brain. Consciousness isn't a separate entity from this, it's just a product of the working brain. You damage the material that makes up consciousness, and you damage consciousness.

Uncle Steezo
03-12-2010, 12:35 PM
your memories aren't stored in any particular part of the brain and they don't even know how the storage mechanism works.

during the thought process, there is an initiating force that is acted upon the nervous system. you have to "want" to recall a memory. the brain processes and stores data like a computer. the data is retrieved and the "user" enters a simulation based on the data collected by the senses.

the user is the individual soul which at the same time is like a little stream fed by a river because all consciousness is one entity. this one entity is trying to experience "being". against impossible odds and through a relatively short process, created a human body that is best suited to experience reality on multiple dimensions simultaneously.

even science is beginning to think that what we call "mind" , simultaneously exists in another dimension on some quantum shit.



as above so below

Uncle Steezo
03-12-2010, 12:45 PM
What you are imagining is that the brain is like the control panel or driver's seat of some vehicle and when the body dies, the consciousness just jumps out and goes on its merry way. I'm trying to tell you that the consciousness is like a film projection or audio recording. You damage the source material, you irreparably damage the image/audio. You destroy the source material, you destroy the entire image/audio. Same thing with consciousness and the brain.


if consciousness is like a recording, then who's watching the movie?
damaged or otherwise. or is it an empty theater with the projector left on?

you didn't refute the concept of a ghost in the machine, all you've done is put the driver in the passenger's seat.

SID
03-12-2010, 12:47 PM
There are plenty of scientists that would disagree with you. I'm only basing my opinion on what I've read in scientific articles about the brain. The first mistake you make is thinking that everything has to come from a specific place in the brain. Even though certain structures in the brain are identified in playing a role in reasoning and emotion, they aren't discreet locations. Emotion and reasoning are distributed through various interworking parts of the brain. Consciousness isn't a separate entity from this, it's just a product of the working brain. You damage the material that makes up consciousness, and you damage consciousness.

It's scientific fact, that different parts of the brain are responsible for different processes, you debating this fact is silly and pointless.

http://i39.tinypic.com/2jbk2dt.gif

The cerebellum is responsible for the body's balance, posture, and the coordination of movement.

The neocortex is the center of higher-order thinking, learning, and memory

The brainstem controls breathing, heart rate, and other autonomic processes

The frontal lobes, which are involved in executive functions such as self-control, planning, reasoning, and abstract thought.

Frontal lobe—conscious thought; damage can result in mood changes.

Parietal lobe—plays important roles in integrating sensory information from various senses, and in the manipulation of objects; portions of the parietal lobe are involved with visuospatial processing.

Occipital lobe—sense of sight; lesions can produce hallucinations.

Temporal lobe—senses of smell and sound, as well as processing of complex stimuli like faces and scenes


Now try and find me a lobe or part of the brain that is the source or producer of consciousness, you won't because it is not part of the brain, it is ordained from a higher order that certain people are striving to reach.....

http://i40.tinypic.com/qqr978.jpg

SID
03-12-2010, 12:50 PM
the user is the individual soul which at the same time is like a little stream fed by a river because all consciousness is one entity. this one entity is trying to experience "being". against impossible odds and through a relatively short process, created a human body that is best suited to experience reality on multiple dimensions simultaneously.


http://i40.tinypic.com/x4m1ki.jpg

Uncle Steezo
03-12-2010, 01:14 PM
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee210/forza7819/shiva.jpg

WARPATH
03-12-2010, 02:02 PM
The brain is a complex organ we don't fully understand. People have had half their brain removed and the other half will take over it's functions.

Arguing spirituality to atheists is pointless.

People may think your insane for believing in something- an idea or concept that can't be proven, it must be felt. It is a personal journey.

Some people believe that monkeys are their ancestors. I can not understand why they adopt this idea. This is their personal journey and I have no right to judge.

Consciousness extends to more than just the human brain. It exists in nature all around us. It is a hard concept to grasp because we have trained our brains to see things in a narrow point of view.

We associate thinking with a brain and life at the cellular level. Psychology 101 says that we will not notice something or acknowledge unless we are looking out for it.

I always try and keep an open mind therefore I see things that people take for granted.

People have built this artificial world around them. It's not hard to see why people are out touch with the natural world.

As scientists study this planet they are only re-discovering things that many (whom's voices are ignored) have already known. Many things are waiting to be found and many other things will never be known.

Ghost In The 'Lac
03-12-2010, 02:22 PM
Now try and find me a lobe or part of the brain that is the source or producer of consciousness, you won't because it is not part of the brain,


"nothing comes from nothing".

Conciousness could arise in a robot if you could give it a supercomputer as complex as a human brain. Conciousness is simply (probably) a product of the billions and billions of neural connection activity going on in the brain.

Face of the Golden Falcon
03-12-2010, 06:45 PM
"nothing comes from nothing".

Conciousness could arise in a robot if you could give it a supercomputer as complex as a human brain. Conciousness is simply (probably) a product of the billions and billions of neural connection activity going on in the brain.

Yeah, maybe but who or what is going to design and create this supercomputer? We all know the only "thing" capable of creating something that complex is good ol' "random chance". So we could be waiting a while.

Why is it so hard to think that maybe everything is a product of consciousness instead of the other way round? What is the major stumbling block in accepting that? (serious question)

HETEPU

BTTR KNG KOOL
03-12-2010, 07:45 PM
In order for consciousness to arise, there has to be something first.

?

Face of the Golden Falcon
03-12-2010, 10:53 PM
^
Why?

You speak of order.

In every day life when you perform an action, the action begins with a declaration of intention by your consciousness. This intention then sparks the chain reaction of events that take place to ultimately carry out the desired intention.

All that is, came about through the declaration of intention by consciousness. Consciousness was first.

HETEPU

BTTR KNG KOOL
03-12-2010, 11:39 PM
Makes Sense.

But what if youre not conscious oneday? hehehe

SID
03-13-2010, 08:26 PM
"nothing comes from nothing".

Conciousness could arise in a robot if you could give it a supercomputer as complex as a human brain. Conciousness is simply (probably) a product of the billions and billions of neural connection activity going on in the brain.

Your definition of consciousness is different from mine.

I can tell that by the tone of your argument and the fact that you believe it could appear in a piece of engineered machinery "by chance".

If you have never felt the connection to nature and the mind of yourself and others before, you will not know what i'm talking about, i'm talking about out universal blueprint, the source of what we are...

snapple
03-14-2010, 01:52 PM
Do you believe in the spirits survival upon the death of the human body?

A: absolutely, our body is just a vessel. this "lifetime" is just a chapter.

What is your view of the afterlife?

A: i believe that when I pass, my soul will go to heaven. i still don't know what heaven is. but i will go somewhere. somewhere beautiful. this ties in to your other questions. the science part im ignorant about. but that doesn't really matter 2 me. there is a lot of stuff that happens that is beyond explaining.

i have faith. i live a good life. ive repented for all the wrong that ive done. my heart and mind are in a good place. i am a good person and i have and will be rewarded for it. i think thats enough to get into heaven. every action has a consequence, good or bad. i think the good ive been doing should hopefully outweigh the bad. eather way i can't get 2 wrapped up in the concept of death. its going to happen and when it does then i will find out. untill then im going to continue to love life and pursue my happiness.

Ghost In The 'Lac
03-14-2010, 02:11 PM
Your definition of consciousness is different from mine.

I can tell that by the tone of your argument and the fact that you believe it could appear in a piece of engineered machinery "by chance".

If you have never felt the connection to nature and the mind of yourself and others before, you will not know what i'm talking about, i'm talking about out universal blueprint, the source of what we are...

I don't have a definition of conciousness. I believe the cause of it however lies in the complexity of the brain, which when reaches complexity levels as seen in a Human, it crosses over and becomes aware of itself.

The question then is how complex does a brain need to be before it becomes "aware", I dont think anyone knows that. The human brain has estimated 100 billion cells. Thats like an entire known universe of cells.

Face of the Golden Falcon
03-14-2010, 03:14 PM
"nothing comes from nothing".

Conciousness could arise in a robot if you could give it a supercomputer as complex as a human brain. Conciousness is simply (probably) a product of the billions and billions of neural connection activity going on in the brain.

Yeah, maybe but who or what is going to design and create this supercomputer? We all know the only "thing" capable of creating something that complex is good ol' "random chance". So we could be waiting a while.

Why is it so hard to think that maybe everything is a product of consciousness instead of the other way round? What is the major stumbling block in accepting that? (serious question)

HETEPU

Can you address my question Franchise?

HETEPU

TheBoarzHeadBoy
03-14-2010, 03:33 PM
I would say that the natural design of the human consciousness took shy of 3 billion years to happen randomly. Thus, you can't observe it happening randomly, its too vast a gulf of time. We are the product of events too vast to comprehend.

The brain works. The brain created the consciousness as it evolved. I don't think that Amoebas are conscious, they're simple enough to still act as machines. We are very complex and that takes more time. We really shouldn't be worrying about this while we have physical issues to contend with in the world. Currently we can only debate this stuff philosophically because the technology doesn't exist to figure it out mathematically.

Like Franchise said, we have brain cells like the universe has galaxies or galaxies have stars. There's a lot to sort through. Lets stick to the easy stuff since we don't have that long on earth.

Face of the Golden Falcon
03-14-2010, 03:44 PM
^ that's cool. You don't have to debate it if you don't want. I obviously believe the answers hold a bigger bearing on our ability to contend with the physical issues in this world that you speak of, than you do.

The brain created the consciousness as it evolved.

You're content with that.

I'm inclined to think that:

The consciousness created the brain to evolve.

And I'm content with that. I not going to force the issue on anyone, but I'd still like to hear what Franchise has to say.

HETEPU

TheBoarzHeadBoy
03-14-2010, 03:48 PM
I think its more important to how the brain thinks rather then why it thinks. That's what I mean by bigger stuff. Why do we act the way we do/think the way we do comes first, then once we're settled on how the brain works we can figure out why it is.

Ghost In The 'Lac
03-14-2010, 04:08 PM
Why is it so hard to think that maybe everything is a product of consciousness instead of the other way round? What is the major stumbling block in accepting that? (serious question)

HETEPU

Because I believe Awareness (conciousness) was a necessity naturally evolved by the brain so the organism could cope better with the increasing complexity of the brains functions. When I say cope I mean cope with the evolution of the human brain so it could take itself to higher levels a non aware brain could not. Obviously the brain itself doesn't have a final plan for what it wants to achieve in the long run, it just wants to keep evolving to higher levels of awesomeness.

And of course the brain is driven and dictated to by our DNA, which is the real crux of the matter. DNA controls every thing at incredibly complex levels. Something like how cogs on a clock work. DNA only cares about its own survival, everything it creates (us and everything in us) is simply a vessel made and driven by DNA so DNA can continue being DNA. DNA is very clever and creates things like Brains, and humans, which are awesome things to continue the DNA.

Face of the Golden Falcon
03-14-2010, 04:24 PM
^
ok, that's all peace, but why is DNA so intent on driving our brain to evolve into higher levels of "awesomeness"? Surely if DNA's only motive is it's own survival then it could have stopped the whole evolution thing a while ago. I mean apes don't look like they're going anywhere just yet, and they're not on a path of self destruction like we are either. If DNA's only motive is to survive then it really shoulda chilled at ape level for a minute and figured out it's next move a bit more wisely.

Question I'm posing is, if evolution is based on survival then why have humans evolved to a point and continue to evolve to levels that seem in excess of what is needed simply to survive (especially when you take into consideration where every other species is at in comparison)?

HETEPU

SID
03-14-2010, 04:35 PM
I don't have a definition of conciousness.

Well come back to this thread when you have a clear idea about what you are talking about....

Ghost In The 'Lac
03-14-2010, 04:49 PM
@Golden Falcon


I think DNA's doing pretty well for itself actually.

I mean its got to a point where its creating organisms that are blasting of the earth into space, figured out things like special relativity. And RZA.


Question I'm posing is, if evolution is based on survival then why have humans evolved to a point and continue to evolve to levels that seem in excess of what is needed simply to survive (especially when you take into consideration where every other species is at in comparison)?

HETEPU

There are millions of organisms which are al perfectly happy to just "exist". Lichen stuck to a rock in greenland or something. All it does, is spend its entire life stuck to a rock, in the wind and rain, being a lichen. It has no desire to do anything else. Its happy just being on the rock. And has been sticking itself to rocks for millions of years.

So your argument there doesnt exist.

Luckily though for whateve reason life is diverse, and every now and then things like Humans come along, which are the best things yet for DNA to spread and re create. Survival probably isnt the right word, mulitply would be better.


why have humans evolved to a point and continue to evolve to levels that seem in excess of what is needed simply to survive


I dont get that way of thinking. "Excess of whats needed?". Thats not how life works. It doesnt stop. Thats the idea. It evolves. Its constantly evolving to increase its chance of spreading its genes. The more advanced the species becomes, the better it gets and spreading its seed.

Face of the Golden Falcon
03-14-2010, 05:23 PM
@Golden Falcon


I think DNA's doing pretty well for itself actually.

I mean its got to a point where its creating organisms that are blasting of the earth into space, figured out things like special relativity. And RZA.

lmao. No arguments there.


There are millions of organisms which are al perfectly happy to just "exist". Lichen stuck to a rock in greenland or something. All it does, is spend its entire life stuck to a rock, in the wind and rain, being a lichen. It has no desire to do anything else. Its happy just being on the rock. And has been sticking itself to rocks for millions of years.

So your argument there doesnt exist.

How is it my argument doesn't exist? To me, what you said strengthens it. If the sole purpose of evolution and the DNA behind evolution is to multiply then why do we have lichen stuck to rocks that's is simply happy to "exist"? Why is the DNA of these "rock sticking" organisms so content while our DNA is so intent on going further and further?

Luckily though for whateve reason life is diverse, and every now and then things like Humans come along, which are the best things yet for DNA to spread and re create. Survival probably isnt the right word, mulitply would be better.

I dont get that way of thinking. "Excess of whats needed?". Thats not how life works. It doesnt stop. Thats the idea. It evolves. Its constantly evolving to increase its chance of spreading its genes. The more advanced the species becomes, the better it gets and spreading its seed.

Luckily though for whatever reason? Is that western sciences official stance on the reason for the diversity in life? Don't you think that the diversity of life puts a bit of a whole in the "evolution based on survival (or multiplication as you've now put it) theory? Why is life so diverse? If DNA is so clever and it's goal is to multiply then why isn't it creating humans or human-like species out of a lot more organisms?

Appreciate your answers Franchise.

HETEPU

Ghost In The 'Lac
03-14-2010, 05:51 PM
Why is the DNA of these "rock sticking" organisms so content while our DNA is so intent on going further and further?


Because it works. For that particular environment. Theres over 20,000 species of Lichen (for instance). They are found in the harshest of conditions where life sucks and no other life is found (lichen love artic hell holes).

The point being - life just likes to exist, no matter what shit hole you find yourself on Earth, there will be some form of life there. Why? Well like Attenborough said "testifying to the moving fact that Life even at its most simplest level occurs, apparently just for its own sake"

Now onto your question about variety, the better the environment for life, the more diverse organisms you will find. More lush conditions you get more complex species and more chance for variety of life to spring up. Over millions of years. (keep in mind the Earth has been around for over 3000 million years, Golden Falcon)


If your asking why life exists point blank, no one knows why. It just does. It likes to I guess. I'd say though theres the bigger picture of Earth as its own organism itself, and everything plays its part, but thats a whole nother debate!

CHAKAKHAN

SID
03-14-2010, 05:58 PM
People are saying that consciousness developed over time and evolved to help us survive, but if anything it has hindered the human race from truely dominating and expanding because it makes you aware of your actions, in the most basic sense if something is "good" or bad".

"good" and "bad" play no part in human survival they just complicate things and make people compassionate, these are phenomena that only exist with the formation of consciousness, it has played no part in our survival.

This reminds me i did a paper on consciousness, i think i'll post it....

Face of the Golden Falcon
03-14-2010, 06:00 PM
Peace. I guess I was asking why life exists.

Saying it does because it just does doesn't seem too scientific to me.

It seems to me that science doesn't seem to want to go there. Maybe it doesn't like what it finds when it does. I don't know.

Like I said though I appreciate your answers.

HETEPU

Cthulhu
03-14-2010, 08:26 PM
People are saying that consciousness developed over time and evolved to help us survive, but if anything it has hindered the human race from truely dominating and expanding because it makes you aware of your actions, in the most basic sense if something is "good" or bad".

"good" and "bad" play no part in human survival they just complicate things and make people compassionate, these are phenomena that only exist with the formation of consciousness, it has played no part in our survival.

This reminds me i did a paper on consciousness, i think i'll post it....

Our concepts of "good" and "bad" or "morality" come from our mechanisms of group cohesion, altruism, and fairness recognition that helped early hominids survive. Even other ape and mammal species probably have levels of this too, we just happen to have one of the most complex systems of reciprocal behavior because of our brain size.

Cthulhu
03-14-2010, 08:33 PM
Because I believe Awareness (conciousness) was a necessity naturally evolved by the brain so the organism could cope better with the increasing complexity of the brains functions. When I say cope I mean cope with the evolution of the human brain so it could take itself to higher levels a non aware brain could not. Obviously the brain itself doesn't have a final plan for what it wants to achieve in the long run, it just wants to keep evolving to higher levels of awesomeness.

And of course the brain is driven and dictated to by our DNA, which is the real crux of the matter. DNA controls every thing at incredibly complex levels. Something like how cogs on a clock work. DNA only cares about its own survival, everything it creates (us and everything in us) is simply a vessel made and driven by DNA so DNA can continue being DNA. DNA is very clever and creates things like Brains, and humans, which are awesome things to continue the DNA.

The only thing you've got wrong here is describing DNA and evolution as though they purposely intend for things to evolve into more complex beings, which is why Falcon is trying to pick up metaphysical/supernatural significance from this. I'd say that's a false or inaccurate analogy. DNA doesn't really care whether you get more complex or "higher" up the species latter (of course whether or not a creature is "higher" up is just a human concept). The only fundamental importance in an evolutionary sense is for a living thing to survive long enough to reproduce. Various environmental pressures kill living things and it's the ones who survive who get to pass their genes along. Therefore only the most beneficial attributes get passed on. There are also mutations to factor in. Some are harmful, some are beneficial, and some are completely neutral, but could be of some latent use millions of years later perhaps, but basically mutations play a role in the diversity and change of species.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is, that it's wrong to think of DNA "trying" to make our brains into "higher" things. If it somehow became a hindrance to our survival to be stupider, the smart people would die off and less complex brains would be favored down the line. This is unlikely, since complex brains are obviously a survival benefit in almost any case, but just an example that evolution doesn't give a fuck how we turn out. It's only a system of environmental pressures that allow only certain populations to thrive. We are the result of those pressures and those pressures will continue to shape us millions of years from now.

Ghost In The 'Lac
03-14-2010, 08:57 PM
The only thing you've got wrong here is describing DNA and evolution as though they purposely intend for things to evolve into more complex beings, which is why Falcon is trying to pick up metaphysical/supernatural significance from this. I'd say that's a false or inaccurate analogy. DNA doesn't really care whether you get more complex or "higher" up the species latter (of course whether or not a creature is "higher" up is just a human concept). The only fundamental importance in an evolutionary sense is for a living thing to survive long enough to reproduce. Various environmental pressures kill living things and it's the ones who survive who get to pass their genes along. Therefore only the most beneficial attributes get passed on. There are also mutations to factor in. Some are harmful, some are beneficial, and some are completely neutral, but could be of some latent use millions of years later perhaps, but basically mutations play a role in the diversity and change of species.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is, that it's wrong to think of DNA "trying" to make our brains into "higher" things. If it somehow became a hindrance to our survival to be stupider, the smart people would die off and less complex brains would be favored down the line. This is unlikely, since complex brains are obviously a survival benefit in almost any case, but just an example that evolution doesn't give a fuck how we turn out. It's only a system of environmental pressures that allow only certain populations to thrive. We are the result of those pressures and those pressures will continue to shape us millions of years from now.

You misunderstand evolution or something. It has nothing to do with what you call 'environmental pressures', thats not how life works. Life capitalizes on the environment, the environment doesn't force change. That's not how natural selection works. Life works with the environment, not against it.

I didnt say anywhere DNA is "trying" to move things to higher levels like you put it. That would be a crude understanding of things. I clearly wrote it has no final plan. It's just in life's nature to become more complex when in a suitable environment to do so.

Mumm Ra
03-14-2010, 09:19 PM
People are saying that consciousness developed over time and evolved to help us survive, but if anything it has hindered the human race from truely dominating and expanding because it makes you aware of your actions, in the most basic sense if something is "good" or bad".

i think people are equating consciousness with awareness and I disagree

what if something was simply "conscious of being conscious"
there wouldn't even be the thought I am conscious
deep meditation can rid you of all thoughts like that (ive read) - though ive never done it
i don't think consciousness has evolved/ developed at all....i view it as a singularity. the cause and not the effect.
there are just different vehicles that house this consciousness, that are designed to project it in different ways - humans being the most advanced design
think of a beam of light shining through different colored windows

Tecknowledgist
03-14-2010, 09:27 PM
I believe that the idea of an afterlife was something we took a liking to because we're too pussy to accept the fact that our consciousness will end when we die.

It's a lot easier to cope with death if you believe there's more after it.


That being said, I don't believe in an afterlife, but I wish I genuinely did.

SID
03-15-2010, 03:54 AM
i think people are equating consciousness with awareness and I disagree

what if something was simply "conscious of being conscious"
there wouldn't even be the thought I am conscious
deep meditation can rid you of all thoughts like that (ive read) - though ive never done it
i don't think consciousness has evolved/ developed at all....i view it as a singularity. the cause and not the effect.
there are just different vehicles that house this consciousness, that are designed to project it in different ways - humans being the most advanced design
think of a beam of light shining through different colored windows

Deep meditation reconnects one with the cosmic dimension, and links them back into the chain of consicousness, people who's life revolves around dancing with the stars and saturday night television will never reach this plane.

Concsiousness has defenitley evolved and still is, check my union of human concsiousness thread and drop your thoughts...

SID
03-15-2010, 03:57 AM
mechanisms of group cohesion, altruism, and fairness recognition

Are all sourced back to conciosuness, Instinct is the only thing we need to survive, conciosuness is there for some reason and as i said before i believe it has nothing to so with survival because thats instincts job which is still as active as ever.

Read human instinct by Dr Winston.

beautifulrock
03-15-2010, 03:59 AM
It's so funny watching people get into semantic arguments over things they can't possibly prove. It's a glaring example of how idiotic humanity truly is.

SID
03-15-2010, 04:19 AM
Were trying to build on something that even has scientists stumped, there is no clear defintion, so a bit of harmless speculation is not going to hurt nobody.

beautifulrock
03-15-2010, 04:36 AM
I would argue just the opposite, that harmless speculation has murdered hundreds of millions of people.

Face of the Golden Falcon
03-15-2010, 04:39 AM
I would argue just the opposite, that harmless speculation has murdered hundreds of millions of people.

So you should probably stay away from this thread then, you may get murdered.

Maybe that's the reason you offered nothing when you entered, except negative counter-productive nonsense.

HETEPU

SID
03-15-2010, 05:07 AM
So you should probably stay away from this thread then, you may get murdered.


lol judging by brocks logic this thread is the text version of the virigina tech massacre..

beautifulrock
03-15-2010, 06:20 AM
So you should probably stay away from this thread then, you may get murdered.

Maybe that's the reason you offered nothing when you entered, except negative counter-productive nonsense.

HETEPUWhy is what I'm saying counterproductive, and how is it nonsense? This whole thread is counterproductive, it seems like I'm the only one with a rational opinion. Go ahead and believe in magic, and supernatural occurrences if it suits you. My point is you can't prove any of it, and shouting louder or pointing fingers at me for your idiotic beliefs won't make any of it less ridiculous. You are stupid. Period. Yea, I'm the one being nonsensical.

SID
03-15-2010, 06:53 AM
Supernatural occurences?

We are taking about concisouness it's source, origin and purpose and it's vital role in the concept of the spirit and afterlife if there is one.

beautifulrock
03-15-2010, 06:58 AM
Supernatural occurences?

We are taking about concisouness it's source, origin and purpose and it's vital role in the concept of the spirit and afterlife if there is one.
You said a mouthful without even trying.

SID
03-15-2010, 07:11 AM
None of us are claiming to know the truth, just speculating, philosophizing, giving our view.

Nothing is concrete, forms constantly change.

Mumm Ra
03-15-2010, 02:39 PM
Deep meditation reconnects one with the cosmic dimension, and links them back into the chain of consicousness, people who's life revolves around dancing with the stars and saturday night television will never reach this plane.

Concsiousness has defenitley evolved and still is, check my union of human concsiousness thread and drop your thoughts...

so right there you're saying the "cosmic consciousness" is always there, but people choose not to link up with it, correct?
that would mean "consciousness" in itself never really changed (its always there, regardless) but people just fail to "tune in" to what's already there.

if you replace the word "consciousness" with "thought" then I could maybe build and agree with you, but my definition of consciousness is completely different
if you define it as "what you know" then I guess humans are the only conscious thing in the universe? you're saying all animals are unconscious? the universe is not conscious?
an electron knowing how to spin around a nucleus is not conscious?
"what we know" indicates matter and energy being utilized, and I don't see consciousness as being either - on the contrary - matter and energy utilize consciousness to bring forth their respective qualities.

but then you go on to say
as consciousness is the fabric of space and time, it is not a object a action or process it is the essence of our spirt
which is a completely different definition from your first one
actually it's about the complete opposite meaning of your first definition so it makes it really hard for me to follow that entire post - it'd take me like 200 lines of text to reply to all that i disagree with in it

SID
03-15-2010, 02:51 PM
Your bringing your beef with me into KTL trying to make me out like a hypocrite, that's not a good look man, not a good look at all.


What i'm trying to say is that consciousness is the essence of sentient life, the hindu's believe the highest form of consciousness a human can attain is being part of the universe itself, formless but more aware then ever, the universe is conscious of itself, therefore it is the only true manifestation of god - the living universe.

We are part of this living universe, this cosmic consciousness we just experience it subjectively, like fox said different streams leading to one great river.

When i say meditation reconnects people to the "network" i mean the people who have forsaken awareness aka the people who look forward to saturday TV read gossip magazines about celebrities etc etc.

Reagrding the rest of your post, you have lost the direction i was taking and took what i was saying in a totaly different way...

Face of the Golden Falcon
03-15-2010, 03:05 PM
Why is what I'm saying counterproductive, and how is it nonsense?


It's counterproductive to this thread for obvious reasons and it's nonsense because you came in here calling people idiotic for discussing topics that you think aren't worth being discussed. If you don't think they're worth being discussed then stay outta the thread. It doesn't make any sense for a rational minded person as you claim yourself to be to come into a discussion to tell people they're idiots for discussing it.


This whole thread is counterproductive, it seems like I'm the only one with a rational opinion. Go ahead and believe in magic, and supernatural occurrences if it suits you.

Who the hell said anything about magic and supernatural occurrences? I certainly didn't. I was discussing consciousness and evolution, or do you believe those to be magical and supernatural as well? Did you even read the through the thread or did you just read the title, conjure up your own ideas of what people were probably discussing and then decide to reply to your own assumptions, because there is little in here about magic and the supernatural if any at all.

My point is you can't prove any of it, and shouting louder or pointing fingers at me for your idiotic beliefs won't make any of it less ridiculous.

Shouting louder and pointing fingers at you for my idiotic beliefs? You have no idea what I believe and last time I checked no one invited you in or mentioned your name in this thread. So who is shouting and pointing fingers at you? If you entered a discussion in the real world by telling the group they were idiotic for discussing what they were discussing wouldn't you expect to get told to fuck off? What the difference here?

You are stupid. Period. Yea, I'm the one being nonsensical.

Lol...You are stupid? Nice ...oh rational minded one.

HETEPU

Mumm Ra
03-15-2010, 03:55 PM
Your bringing your beef with me into KTL trying to make me out like a hypocrite, that's not a good look man, not a good look at all.
what? i was just addressing what i read as i understood it
maybe i was wrong maybe i wasn't - either way your paranoia is not necessary
I thought I was being quite civil about it (as I always am in KTL)

SID
03-15-2010, 04:02 PM
Paranoia?

That post was your only visible contribution to this thread and it was aimed at making me come across as a hypocrite by posting stuff i wrote in A DIFFERENT THREAD.

Mumm Ra
03-15-2010, 04:13 PM
you told me to check out that different thread and drop comments so i did.
it was too long for me to pick through in that thread so i dropped a few comments here that were relatable to what we were talking about.

jezus christ sid im not out to attack you in this thread. stop being paranoid.

so we have some disagreements, who cares. i don't.
peace

beautifulrock
03-15-2010, 04:34 PM
It's counterproductive to this thread for obvious reasons and it's nonsense because you came in here calling people idiotic for discussing topics that you think aren't worth being discussed. If you don't think they're worth being discussed then stay outta the thread. It doesn't make any sense for a rational minded person as you claim yourself to be to come into a discussion to tell people they're idiots for discussing it.




Who the hell said anything about magic and supernatural occurrences? I certainly didn't. I was discussing consciousness and evolution, or do you believe those to be magical and supernatural as well? Did you even read the through the thread or did you just read the title, conjure up your own ideas of what people were probably discussing and then decide to reply to your own assumptions, because there is little in here about magic and the supernatural if any at all.



Shouting louder and pointing fingers at you for my idiotic beliefs? You have no idea what I believe and last time I checked no one invited you in or mentioned your name in this thread. So who is shouting and pointing fingers at you? If you entered a discussion in the real world by telling the group they were idiotic for discussing what they were discussing wouldn't you expect to get told to fuck off? What the difference here?



Lol...You are stupid? Nice ...oh rational minded one.

HETEPUI didn't bother to read that, but thanks for trying to set me straight, I think. Still think you're a fucking imbecile by the way, nice sig faggot.

PALEFORCE
03-15-2010, 05:23 PM
brock droppin knawledge
thanks for posting

Tito_Para Enfrente
03-15-2010, 11:29 PM
I kind of do . But the truth im scared , i hope i get to heaven . I dont know but i just want to live. I hope there is a heaven .

UnequivocallyCorrect
03-18-2010, 03:22 AM
I kind of do . But the truth im scared , i hope i get to heaven . I dont know but i just want to live. I hope there is a heaven .

How honest!?! Seriously... Respect.

The rest of this isn't really directed to you but take it into consideration.
---
I don't believe in heaven. for 1 reason. "It makes life worse!"

Our current science cannot Prove afterlife exists. (Mind you, that's the first rule of being scientific "1. You must be able to prove it")

I choose science usually, but ALSO people who believe in afterlife are much more susceptible to a less fulfilling actual life. The reason is because the afterlife presents the possibility or assurance(much worse) that "you" will continue to exist.

If you KNEW that you would die at the age 500(assume you will still be healthy and, look young) wouldn't you put off the "important things" until you we're 450? Maybe you would put off the "important things" until you were 499. Knowing or thinking "you" as a soul will not die after death is the same as knowing or thinking you will live longer or forever. Afterlifes like heaven give people the belief they will continue to exist and that naturally lowers their desire to make the most of real life.

UC's chart o' how long "you"(soul or whateva) have to exist
If you think you will stop existing tomorrow (UR PARANOID DOOD)
If you think you will stop existing in 5 years (UR probably depressed or weird)
If you think you will stop existing afterlife (U have a HEALTHY concept of life)
If you think you will stop existing after afterlife (Ur not living for today, and prolly going to miss out)
If you think you will stop existing never (Ur living a dream)

If we're talking about heaven. That's a whole bag o shit. If Heaven is a personal heaven (like each person's own universe) I Say FUCK THAT. I want to be in the heaven with the REAL person. Not a copy suited for me. But that means I'm fucking my REAL friend's REAL wife (in heaven) and that wouldn't be cool with his REAL heaven.

ALL "versions" of heaven REQUIRE us to CHANGE as a PERSON, to EXIST in them. Is that really a "Heaven" and are we really "Ourselves" in this heaven?

A collective heaven is no good and a personal heaven doesn't give us a REAL heaven (it would be fucking simulation).

Conclusion: Heaven is a joke concept, afterlife takes away from living real life, life is scary, but that's part of the fun. Live life for today because its all you got son.

SID
03-18-2010, 05:29 AM
Heaven is bullshit, we all know that deep down.

Heaven truely means the heavens aka the cosmos, thats were the afterlife will be if there is one.

I see the cosmos as a recycler of spirits and energies, some are recycled back to earth in another form and some are freed from all restriction.

Mumm Ra
03-18-2010, 06:11 AM
i think waiting to die to go to heaven is one of the greatest tricks the devil ever pulled

Rollo
03-18-2010, 05:07 PM
I do.
I don't however believe in an eternal universe, I also don't believe reality is in any way shape or formed shaped by my perception.
I feel no connection to nature or the material world and see this existence as something my personna resonates through from some remote source.
Where that signal or current comes from that carries me to this vessel... I dunno....

DiGitalChamberz
03-18-2010, 09:39 PM
i think that when you die your body breaks back down into its basic elements again and becomes one with the Universe again and those same elements are just re-used for creation on another level, as were are now in solid liquid n gas stages and our elements are dispersed in the atmosphere i feel that our atoms can become life for something or someone else.. maybe a breeze will carry and blow us hither n tither until we become building blocks for some other life form (flower, trees, insects, animals, man etc.) or anything else made up of the the elements.. maybe we are (atoms) inhaled by someone else and become part of someone else's make up now, and the atoms that once were a part of someone who has passed on is now a part of someone else who is living.. they in turn maybe have a child.. that child maybe has stuff in it that was from someone else.. maybe this persons thoughts and ideas and dreams maybe even down to personality n traits that belonged to someone else, will now be manifested in the new "incarnation"? its very possible.. the science makes sense.. i hope my rant made some sense and i apologize if i didnt articulate my view well enough.. these is just how i Cee Reincarnation.. but im sure ya get the jist..

Peace