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Jet Set
10-03-2005, 07:44 AM
As Kung Fu is based upon Buddism, does anyone and books describing the philosophical history behind the two?
Like a book describing the history of Kung Fu or such
something like Hagakure on that note.

SubtleEnergies
10-03-2005, 08:15 AM
Not all kung fu is Buddhist.

Shaolin is Buddhist and was started apparently from Tamo's chi kung. Although this could be dodgey...

Wu tang on the other hand is Taoist. The 3 main wu tang styles are Tai chi, Pakua and Xing yi.

Tai chi uses the principles of yin and yang heavily.

Pakua the 8 elements of the I Ching.

And Xing yi the 5 taoist elements.

As for books there should be heaps...however keep in mind the chinese like to mix myth with history.

The MAIN kung fu story would be that of Tamo (Boddidharma). He started teaching the monks exercise, stared at a wall for ten years and lots of cool stuff. Check out his story on the web.

Apart from that any buddhist or taoist book deals with the beliefs of the original practioners of these arts. The I Ching is a good taoist text that gave alot of martial influence.

A book I have Qi gong: the secret of youth gives a decent history.

Most books on kung fu will deal with their history a bit.

GuardianOne
10-03-2005, 10:24 AM
Well you see Kung-Fu was developed by a certain Huanti in the 2600 BC (or somewhere there). But you see Kung-Fu means Kung - Deciplined Fu - Person.

Anyway as has always been you see in remote China history has always said that respect was given to the Shaoling (or Shaolin) in the North. yet honour was given to the Wudang ( or Taoist Kung-fu)in the south.

But lets look at the various tecniques that we might know.
I am trained in the Kujen Kung- Fu technique (pronounced Guren) its a Taoist Skill but i know non of you know it as i was trained by my celestial master (Kiyang Cai Ching). It was thought to be similar to the Crane (Krane Kung-fu technique actually the white crane) but many commentaries in remote China have argued over it over the past 800 years.

Lets look at the different techniques and try and put the history we know!Iam sure there are a lot who can get mmore information on it?

Lets start with the White Crane (Pok Hok Pai):

SubtleEnergies
10-03-2005, 10:31 AM
There's too many histories to start writin bout them here for me. Also so many styles.

A general history I outlined will do for me in this thread.

GuardianOne
10-03-2005, 10:52 AM
Okay

Well the White Cran is part of the Shaolin. It has high kicks like Tae Kwon Do with strikes with the elbows and especially the Fingers ( demonstrating the Crane it self in this form) but also uses the wrists. Many could say Tai Chi Chuan originated from this Technique.

Then there is the Black Tiger Kung-Fu:

Peace
PS: the others can expound on each also

strife
10-03-2005, 05:34 PM
www.shaolin.com (http://www.shaolin.com)
go to styles.

GuardianOne
10-04-2005, 01:19 AM
go to www.eternalspringtours.com (http://www.eternalspringtours.com)

For wu dang kung-fu

SubtleEnergies
10-04-2005, 04:47 AM
Cranes main features are that its preemptive, vicious and precise.

I don't think it's anything like Tai Chi or Tae kwon Do. Tai chi is also OLDER than crane so it is not the origin. None of the Shaolin styles are any older than karate styles really. The temples were burnt. I think tai chi is the oldest followed by xing yi or the other way around.

Besides the ages I doubt crane would have developed into Tai Chi. Tai Chi's biomechanics are subtle and very different to crane. I have done some white crane....

GuardianOne
10-04-2005, 07:55 AM
Cranes main features are that its preemptive, vicious and precise.

I don't think it's anything like Tai Chi or Tae kwon Do. Tai chi is also OLDER than crane so it is not the origin. None of the Shaolin styles are any older than karate styles really. The temples were burnt. I think tai chi is the oldest followed by xing yi or the other way around.

Besides the ages I doubt crane would have developed into Tai Chi. Tai Chi's biomechanics are subtle and very different to crane. I have done some white crane....You can check the link below, or search for more info. Which master taught you and what generation shaolin was he, and from which family and tree of the shaolin tree. Which ancient scrolls did you use for training?

You missed the point about tai chi or tao kwon do. And tai chi was not the oldest. Other schools of thought had debated on it being similar, whilst the example of tae kwon do was just an example. I attained a brown belt in 1989 in Tae kwon Do.

Anyway, iam sure there will be other info others can put accross. But good looking out!

Peace

Golden_Armz
10-04-2005, 10:50 AM
Good topic man, i watch alot of Kung Fu movies and learnt quite a bit from them- also the mentality of Martial Artists and Buddhists -m much of it is how you percieve nature aswell. i will look at those links and hopefully post some feedback...Peace

SubtleEnergies
10-04-2005, 06:38 PM
I learnt from Sun Da fa. And he wasn't Shaolin.

Which ancient scrolls did I use for training? Wtf..... lol...

Tai Chi as far as I know is the only "battle-field" tested art because of its age. No shaolin style is older than about 300 years old (even though they like to make it sound 2500 years old you will notice that's the temple, no particular style in use today is that old). Tai chi as far as I know is older than Xing Yi and Xing Yi is about 500 years old.

All the Shaolin styles today were gathered together by someone... (Hung? ) I am not sure who from memory....After the monks were persecuted he went around trying to get any remaining skills from surviving monks and they DEVELOPED todays Shaolin.

SubtleEnergies
10-04-2005, 06:41 PM
Also movies are cool, as long as you remember that's what they are.

Shaolin and Wu Tang were never at war.

A rogue shaolin abbot starting Wu Tang is more than likely just a legend.


I read an interview where RZA went to Wu Tang with Shi Yan ming and meant the abbott of Wu Tang. He asked him about the war and he laughed and said throughout history they have always helped each other, that he viewed the two religions as one and the same.

GuardianOne
10-05-2005, 01:19 AM
Also movies are cool, as long as you remember that's what they are.
Shaolin and Wu Tang were never at war.
A rogue shaolin abbot starting Wu Tang is more than likely just a legend.
I read an interview where RZA went to Wu Tang with Shi Yan ming and meant the abbott of Wu Tang. He asked him about the war and he laughed and said throughout history they have always helped each other, that he viewed the two religions as one and the same.
Yah when you mention battle tested, that's a different story. But its interesting cause there where many kung-fu techniques that where being developed but were not widely known before.

I like what you mentioned about RZA and the history lesson he got. That's a classic!!

Peace

SubtleEnergies
10-05-2005, 01:22 AM
Yeah my only point on Shaolin is that coz of the persecution of the monks the styles we have today are hybrids, loose ends and developments of whatever survived.

Os3y3ris
10-05-2005, 01:31 AM
Wushu anyone?

GuardianOne
10-05-2005, 01:36 AM
There are different types of Kung-fu, although well known techniques revolve around shaolin, wudang, and there are various practices buddhism and confucianism all have their arts of exercise. Martial arts are meant for warfare, but mainly for exercise to keep the bodily health in proper condition, this practice of good health goes beyond all beliefs and you find it a part of all asian traditions. Well with different methods of accomplishing it. That's how you find it that there are those well known in warfare for there arts, but like the taoist it is meant for cultivation, and only to be used as a last resort. Most practices were not used in warfare but had existed way before-only practiced secretly and developed. For every one must develop in the practice.
Its like the well known young student who has come down from a mountain after years traing and attained the great martial skill, and is well known for his artistry as a fighter-whose won many battles only to be defeated one day by a old man.

Os3y3ris
10-05-2005, 01:40 AM
Its like the well known young student who has come down from a mountain after years traing and attained the great martial skill, and is well known for his artistry as a fighter-whose won many battles only to be defeated one day by a old man.
You mean Oyama?

GuardianOne
10-05-2005, 01:42 AM
Yeah my only point on Shaolin is that coz of the persecution of the monks the styles we have today are hybrids, loose ends and developments of whatever survived.
Thats the point with history is that noit all of it is well documented. But those who take care of it assist. Though you have to wonder about its accuracy. Even though all techniques have had their disadvantages thats why they develop them, from the masters of old till this day. And still people will always try to perfect their kung-fu skill.

Also one must remember that Buddhism has its on branches, each with its own skill. Just like with shaolin there are different sects each with their own branches. All these have their own arts they follow.

Peace
PS: Wushu well thats a broad statement. Lets look at that!

GuardianOne
10-05-2005, 01:56 AM
You mean Oyama?You can name anyone. Anyway you see chinese martial arts can collectively be called: Kung-fu, Wushu, Kuoshu or even Ch'uan Fa. But there are certain techniques that reflect a particular art form. Like Tai Chi Chuan breath control techniques, or the Five Vital breaths, even Three Folds of the heart and just to add to that what i trained Kujen Hsi and Kujen Jung slow in movement. But assist when in combat as you can maintain you vital energy in a fight or when attacked, whilst the opponent gets tired over a long stretch of time 10 to 20 minutes.

There are various types like demonstration techniques and others some with particular weapon they use and specialize on.There are internal and external types also.

Peace

Os3y3ris
10-05-2005, 02:12 AM
You can name anyone.Oh, figured you meant Oyama. he went up on the mountain, came down, assraped everyone, but allegedly had quite the time with some tai chi guy. Didnt get his ass kciked, but didnt win either.

PS: Wushu well thats a broad statement. Lets look at that!
When I said it, I meant its modern context. I assume you're familiar with "modern" wushu?

GuardianOne
10-06-2005, 01:14 AM
When I said it, I meant its modern context. I assume you're familiar with "modern" wushu?No iam not well versed in the contemporary wushu of recent years. Iam sure there are a lot who are and have studied and practiced it.

Peace

GuardianOne
10-06-2005, 01:14 AM
When I said it, I meant its modern context. I assume you're familiar with "modern" wushu?
No iam not well versed in the contemporary wushu of recent years. Iam sure there are a lot who are and have studied and practiced it.

Peace

Os3y3ris
10-06-2005, 01:29 AM
Lucky you. Its basically chinese dance passed off as martial arts. The epitome of the flower fist.

Jet Set
10-06-2005, 08:38 PM
Wushu wasnt that the style widley used in Chinese movies, note not Hong Kong, bc of it theatrical style. Jet Li was a master of that isn't he?

Anyways. So there are nog book reads on this one?
I'm really searching for a book like the one Bruce Lee did, although he never actually finished it and it was just pieced together.

Os3y3ris
10-06-2005, 11:12 PM
Wushu wasnt that the style widley used in Chinese movies, note not Hong Kong, bc of it theatrical style. Jet Li was a master of that isn't he?
Yep, thats modern wushu.

GuardianOne
10-07-2005, 01:39 AM
Wushu wasnt that the style widley used in Chinese movies, note not Hong Kong, bc of it theatrical style. Jet Li was a master of that isn't he?

Anyways. So there are nog book reads on this one?
I'm really searching for a book like the one Bruce Lee did, although he never actually finished it and it was just pieced together.
Most books (or scrolls) that i came accross i don't have, on ancient Kung-fu. Cause they only showed me then took the scrolls back. When they returned to China (back to the villages). It would be a bit difficult to find such text on the deep philosophical kung-fu. But they are deep- and it changes your pespective on kung-fu and what has happened with the western world. Iam sure the ones you find nowa days that are published are extremely flawed ( even the most revered masters in the western world) but they do have there truth. Personally i have not read Bruce Lee's art.

Yah Jet Li was five or six times champion (iam not sure whic part of the country). i only have scrolls on Kujen (kung-fu and breathe control techniques) but i was given with the highest intensions. Most of the other kung-fu techniques i had scolls on i'll get them from my other friends who borrowed them some years back which are :
wudang
wing chun
white crane
wing tsun

Peace
PS: each has the histroy, philosophy of the art and teaching from the masters of old. Most are from the southern part of china

Jet Set
10-07-2005, 04:11 AM
Didn't wushu grew out of the need for some sort of martial arts, but it was forbidden to practice it within China? So the merged Acrobatics and Theater and drama?

SubtleEnergies
10-07-2005, 06:09 AM
Wu Shu = dancing
and that's the words of a Wu tang master
He also called shaolin dancing.

Os3y3ris
10-07-2005, 11:54 AM
Wushu, in its usual connotation, is dance. Shaolin styles are sometimes dance. Wu Tang doesn't fare much better. Most of the kung fu shit nowadays is watered down. I've seen some cold shit, but in general its lame. After they burned the temples, the monks were killed and scattered, leaving the Chinese government to recreate that shit much later. Generally not the original shaolin you see today.

GuardianOne
10-08-2005, 04:24 AM
Didn't wushu grew out of the need for some sort of martial arts, but it was forbidden to practice it within China? So the merged Acrobatics and Theater and drama?
With such elements affecting most well known martial arts, styles which were in remote areas became even more secluded. Which makes it harder to obtain the history and philosophy (some are afraid no one will take notice).

Peace

SubtleEnergies
10-08-2005, 07:33 AM
I don't know about Wu Tang being dance. Xing yi never is....pakua I honestly haven't seen enough of...and tai chi has been destroyed and given to geriatrics :\

I do know one thing alot of people try and pass other things (shaolin, wushu, mixed bits) off as wu tang.

Jet Set
10-10-2005, 02:02 AM
Wushu, in its usual connotation, is dance. Shaolin styles are sometimes dance. Wu Tang doesn't fare much better. Most of the kung fu shit nowadays is watered down. I've seen some cold shit, but in general its lame. After they burned the temples, the monks were killed and scattered, leaving the Chinese government to recreate that shit much later. Generally not the original shaolin you see today.
You know any good books describing these events?

Os3y3ris
10-10-2005, 06:22 AM
Not really.

Kephrem
10-10-2005, 08:03 AM
Not really.


Where did you derive your information from?


After they burned the temples, the monks were killed and scattered, leaving the Chinese government to recreate that shit much later. Generally not the original shaolin you see today.

Os3y3ris
10-10-2005, 11:15 AM
Various sources online. Feel free to check on your own and see what you get.