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View Full Version : Flashback: Do the beats really matter?


Rayson
06-26-2010, 02:11 AM
Chino XL, Canibus & Ras Kass' seem to have the same common compliant about their lyrically masterful debut albums, lame production. There are plenty of us hardcore fans, but it seems critics and casual hip hop fans can't get past the production. I can't go as far as to say the Canibus' debut beats are very good, but I do really enjoy Chino and Ras' dark and minimalistic beats. Can horrible beats actually take away from the superb wordplay of these rappers? It is fucking odd how neither of the three ended up becoming some of the most successful. Thats all financial shit really because lyrically they can crush anybody's foundation 9:|6

fatboybrandon
06-26-2010, 04:24 AM
Yeah, I felt the same about those artist you mentioned on their debut albums, the lyrics were sick but I couldn't help but feel like the album as a whole would be more memorable if for better production.

I think the lyrics overshadowed the production on their debuts because the rhymes were powerful but the beats weren't enough to match the impact of what was being said. In their later albums I could see the sound get more to the point it balances with the impact of the rhymes (2000 B.C., Rassasination, I Told You So).

claaa7
06-26-2010, 05:23 AM
i might catch some flack for this and people misquoting Masta Killa on "Triumph" without unterstanding what "the dumb are mostly intrigued by the drum means" - i'd say BEATS, THE FUNKY BREAKS >>> lyrics, altho i love me some dope lyrics and have nothing but the utter respect for guys like Black Thought, Eminem, AG, Rakim and Freddie Foxxx (if you've been here for a long time you know how much i love lyrics) BUT my main attraction to hip-hop from the jump was always the beats and still to this day that's what i am most fascinated by (a dope producer interview vs. a dope lyricists interview the producer interview is always more interesting imo).

my point is, what every artist should strive for is DOPE beats with DOPE lyrics that grab the attention of the listener from both spectrums right away and keep them interested for the whole song. but i can listen to immaculate beats with wack MC's altho i can wish there was a better MC on there but it doesn't bother me too much as long as the production is that fucking ill.

on the other hand, if an album has shitty beats but immaculate lyricism it DEFINITELY takes away a whole lot from the rhyming. there are very, very few MC's that's such dope lyricists that they'll can grab your attention despite a shitty beat (if the beat is not totally horrible). the nr #1 example of this is Nas who, if you really start to listen to his flow, words, delivery, thoughts, can save some half-shitty beats - but only when he's peaking.

what i like to say this is:
"Livin' Proof" by Group Home, produced by DJ Premier is a fucking classic in my book. one of the best produced albums i've heard but the MC's ain't very good at all, in fact i would never listen to them unless they had Preemo producing them.

"Recovery" by Eminem is one of the best lyrical performances i've heard in a very long time. First time i heard it i couldn't even make it through the entire album bc i felt the beat and hooks sucked BIG TIME. later i came to the conclusion that the album has a share of pretty good beats and Em manages to save some songs by his immense lyrics but still the beats definitely take away from the incredible lyricism (an album that could've been a definite masterpiece if the production was right - see bonus tracks).

i'm high right now so i don't know if i make sense but i'd rather listen to "LIVIN PROOF" than "RECOVERY" or "Mic Club" by Canibus.

-IrOnBuLL-
06-26-2010, 09:08 AM
im seriously not into music thatz mixed wit horrible ass lyricz n great beatz.
not intrigued to the drumz that much to give their skillz on the mic a pass.

-IrOnBuLL-
06-26-2010, 09:11 AM
"my point is, what every artist should strive for is DOPE beats with DOPE lyrics that grab the attention of the listener from both spectrums right away and keep them interested for the whole song."

^^^^good lyricz + good beatz = good MUZIK!!!!

CharlesJones
06-26-2010, 09:54 AM
Beats have always mattered in rap music. Same thing goes for r&b. Canibus albums suck because of bad beats and Ras Kass albums suck because of bad beats. I've never heard Chino XL's albums so i can't comment on him. Canibus has really disappointed me because i was so impressed with his lyrics when i first heard him on LL Cool J's 4,3,2,1 song. Then when i heard him again on Lost Boys Beasts From The East song, he blew me away with his lyrics. So i was expecting his first album to be good after hearing his lyrics on other rappers songs and i was so mad. Only songs i like on his first album is Get Retarded and 2nd Round Knockout. Canibus hasn't been able to shine because of bad beats but i'll pick him to slay any mc in a rap battle because he's the illest. There aren't too many mc's on his level except Redman, Rakim, Nas.




Same thing can be said about Wu Tang having bad beats. I know i may get dissed for what i'm saying since this is a Wu Tang website but their solo albums have made me mad because they're ill rappers but i don't like most of the beats on their solo albums. I also haven't liked their group albums after the first classic album.

CharlesJones
06-26-2010, 09:56 AM
Claaa7, how you gonna diss Little Dap and Melachi The Nutcracker of Group Home? I wouldn't say they're terrible rappers. Livin Proof is a classic album. So since you said you wouldn't listen to them if Premier didn't do their beats, i guess you didn't listen to their last wack album A Tear For The Ghetto? Hahahahahahahahahahahaha. Premier produced one song on there and the one he produced has Guru on it. That song isn't that good though. I forgot the name of it. A Tear For The Ghetto didn't even sound like a group album because Little Dap raps on most of the songs by himself LOL. I was wondering where was Melachi on most of the songs.

Meta4
06-26-2010, 10:14 AM
Ill beats with so-so lyrics is more listenable than so-so beats with ill lyrics to me, not by much tho. Horrible is unlistenable tho. CJ you should check Rip The Jacker, Bis comes with the lyrics (a lil too "smart" sometimes) and Stoupes brings AUDIBLE MAGMA. I jus found the instrumental version a few weeks back and cannot stop bangin it. But yeah thats how urban pop is so big now people jus wanna here beats and flip out over any punchline. So yeah beats impact an album more to me. Before I go the Saigon/Just Blaze album GSNT could possibly be a masterpiece, Sai woulda killed ANYONE back in 06 and JB, well yall kno whats up.

CharlesJones
06-26-2010, 10:17 AM
I won't be listening to Canibus anymore. I gave up on him after Rip The Jacker album. His songs put me to sleep hahahahahahahahahahahaha. Just Blaze is a overrated producer. His beats aren't anything special to me. Saigon doesn't need his beats. I still haven't heard any Saigon mixtapes yet and i wanna get some.

GhettoGnom
06-26-2010, 11:01 AM
Tbf, Here To Save You All had great production, imho.. Soul On Ice had pretty decent production as well, and both albums definitely had better production than I Told You So and Rassasination! Canibus didn't get an album with good production until Mic Club imo.

But yeah, beats DO matter, even more than lyrics.. The way I see it, beats and delivery (including flow) >>>>> lyrics, but if you're lyrics are truely exceptional, beats and/or delivery MIGHT be ignored.. It's all about the finished product, the best artists got delivery, beats and lyrics. The good ones got some of it.


edit-
CharlesJones added to the ignore list, I have absolutely no idea why I haven't done this before. "Hahahahahahaha" }:|

CharlesJones
06-26-2010, 11:03 AM
LOL@you think Canibus Mic Club album has good beats hahahahahahaha.

djskillz
06-26-2010, 12:40 PM
Chino XL, Canibus & Ras Kass' seem to have the same common compliant about their lyrically masterful debut albums, lame production. There are plenty of us hardcore fans, but it seems critics and casual hip hop fans can't get past the production. I can't go as far as to say the Canibus' debut beats are very good, but I do really enjoy Chino and Ras' dark and minimalistic beats. Can horrible beats actually take away from the superb wordplay of these rappers? It is fucking odd how neither of the three ended up becoming some of the most successful. Thats all financial shit really because lyrically they can crush anybody's foundation 9:|6

^Nice sig. I didn't know we had many metal heads on here.

claaa7
06-26-2010, 08:18 PM
Claaa7, how you gonna diss Little Dap and Melachi The Nutcracker of Group Home? I wouldn't say they're terrible rappers. Livin Proof is a classic album. So since you said you wouldn't listen to them if Premier didn't do their beats, i guess you didn't listen to their last wack album A Tear For The Ghetto? Hahahahahahahahahahahaha. Premier produced one song on there and the one he produced has Guru on it. That song isn't that good though. I forgot the name of it. A Tear For The Ghetto didn't even sound like a group album because Little Dap raps on most of the songs by himself LOL. I was wondering where was Melachi on most of the songs.

well Lil' Dap got a dope voice and is an aight rapper but Melachi is wack. i only heard the song with Gang Starr from their second album, "The Legacy" is the name of the song.

Edgar Erebus
06-27-2010, 10:54 AM
Lyrics don't matter. If I wanted dope lyrics I'd read a poem. Get it? Get it?

Mr. R&B
06-27-2010, 12:55 PM
An amazing lyricist over sub-par beats is way more tolerable to me than wack MCs on stellar production.

When I hear some faggot spit simple simon shit on a dope beat I wanna punch somebody.

I think to myself "come up off that lil buddy, you obviously don't know what you're doing with this beat".

A sick lyricist who gets ignored by the industry and thus can't afford super producers is understandable.

Someone who can get A-list production but can't slaughter the sick beat they're provided is INEXCUSABLE!


thats how urban pop is so big now people jus wanna here beats and flip out over any punchline.

I'd also like to address this quickly.

That statement is very true and it's fucking up Hip-Hop IMO.

All these kids rapping now think they have to make every other fucking line a punchline, it's annoying as hell and overabused.

Corny punches don't make you a lyricist.

Punchlines are the new auto-tune, totally over saturated at this point.

GhettoGnom
06-27-2010, 02:32 PM
An amazing lyricist over sub-par beats is way more tolerable to me than wack MCs on stellar production.

When I hear some faggot spit simple simon shit on a dope beat I wanna punch somebody.
An amazing lyricist over sub-par beats > terrible MC on stellar production
but
amazing lyricist over sub-par beats << terrible lyricist with good flow/delivery on stellar production

imho anyways.



All these kids rapping now think they have to make every other fucking line a punchline, it's annoying as hell and overabused.

Corny punches don't make you a lyricist.

Punchlines are the new auto-tune, totally over saturated at this point.
Word!

Rayson
06-27-2010, 11:18 PM
An amazing lyricist over sub-par beats is way more tolerable to me than wack MCs on stellar production.

When I hear some faggot spit simple simon shit on a dope beat I wanna punch somebody.

I think to myself "come up off that lil buddy, you obviously don't know what you're doing with this beat".

A sick lyricist who gets ignored by the industry and thus can't afford super producers is understandable.

Someone who can get A-list production but can't slaughter the sick beat they're provided is INEXCUSABLE!




I'd also like to address this quickly.

That statement is very true and it's fucking up Hip-Hop IMO.

All these kids rapping now think they have to make every other fucking line a punchline, it's annoying as hell and overabused.

Corny punches don't make you a lyricist.

Punchlines are the new auto-tune, totally over saturated at this point.

That's what i'm saying. I am captivated by lyrics, much like a screenplay. If I have to sit through a film with pathetic and unoriginal dialouge, I won't like it.

Rayson
06-27-2010, 11:21 PM
^Nice sig. I didn't know we had many metal heads on here.
For sure man. I am a diehard metal fan, but hip hop has always been the best genre imo. Its hard to find people into both genres, especially death metal.

Longbongcilvaringz
06-28-2010, 12:19 PM
The problem with Chino's debut is that he does nothing but drop similes.

This and that don't need that like this don't need that like this and that like that blah blah blah.

And it's good for a bit, but boring fucking quickly.

The production is good though.

And Soul on Ice has great production.

THE MASON
06-28-2010, 03:02 PM
a wack beat can kill an emcee

a wack emcee can kill the vibe of a beat

i think for a casual listener of hip hop the beat is central in whether they like the track, but for the hardcore hip hop heads i think its more then just the beat. cause you come to know the artist for lyrics and flows. still the beat is essential to that artist and how they perform lyrically.

both rely on each other to make a track or an album for that matter

Mr. R&B
06-29-2010, 12:55 AM
Canibus should just release acapella vesrions of his whole discog.

That would be dope.

Except C! True hollywood Stories, that album is abysmally awful.

Even if God himself provided the beats it couldn't be saved.

Durag
06-29-2010, 05:07 AM
To me, beats are more important than lyrics.

I love dope lyrics, obviously been a wu-tang fan i think all of us love dope lyrics, but wtf is the point of listening to dope lyrics over a truly fuckin horseshit beat? maybe if the emcee has a great delivery and flow i.e i could listen to Pharoahe Monch over nearly any beat, but hes an exceptoin to the rule.

When i first get an album and listen to it through, its the beats that catch my attention first. Its only when i listen to an album or a particular song a few times that i grasp a hold of the lyrics and really listen to what they are saying. So if i play an album through and i heard tracks with totally bullshit beats, im not going to listen to those tracks more than a few times, so if theres some great lyrics in there im not going to hear them coz im not going to listen to the tracks coz its got a shitty beat, ya get me?

If a beat is seriously dope with shitty lyrics, i can pretty much ignore the emcee and just vibe to the beat, but i cant ignore a shitty beat just to listen to dope lyrics.

I think people seem to forget that hip-hop is a form of MUSIC, why listen to it when the music (i.e beat) is shit?

People here seem to take that Masta Killa line ("The Dumb are mostly intrigued be the drum") as some sort of fuckin religion, and all commercial rap fans just enjoy the beat so they should listen to the lyrics to make them seem like 'true' hip-hop fans. I know, coz i done this when i was round 15 or 16, constantly telling all my friends who listened to Dre and Snoop that lyrics were more important. Yes, i was a little faggot.

claaa7
06-30-2010, 05:22 AM
^ well put Durag, people are misinterpreting that MK line like crazy too. he says that's the dumb (the 85%) first hear the Wu-Tang beats and gets attracted (just like you say) and after a while they'll absorb the lyrics too and get the knowledge of the 5% nation.

BLACK BART SIMPSON
06-30-2010, 05:57 AM
lmao did that faggot really just say punchlins r the new auto tune???? lmao ur a fucking retard...

FIRST OFF a punch line is more then a metaphor or simile its a punch...anything thtll mak listeners go "OOOOOOOOO" nd mak tht ugly face like sum1 farted is a punchline...

nd comparing it to auto tune is like...what?

punchlines r like anything if u do it right its good

but i know what ur saying tho the kids tht lack lyrics throw in wack meta4's nd similies... like "ill put more wholes in u then swiss cheese" if i had a dollar for every time i heard tht punch..i ven usd it in my earlier raps Big L first said tht shit likr 20 yrs ago is what niggas fail to realize..

i cnt believ i just had to explain punchlins on a wutang forum

punchlines for days in this vid
3t8q9mUW0Eg

Beowulf
06-30-2010, 08:55 AM
Beats have always been more important than lyrics.

A great beat with lame lyrics is still a good track = In Da Club
A lame beat with great lyrics is still a wack track = Immobilarity

You can take the lyrics away from a track, and its still music. You can still bump your head. How often do people listen to acapella? That isn't music, its spoken word.

5hundred&one
06-30-2010, 01:18 PM
one of these days, some of y'all is gonna have to come to terms with the fact that lyricism was an extension of hiphop and if you go back and listen to early hiphop stuff it was more about a beat you could dance to than anything else.

of course you can make a dope song without lyrics, if you disagree then you took the interlude on Wu-Forever way too seriously. especially since the person who made it has since admitted to dancing to Soulja Boy in the club.

look at it like this: Canibus has no classic albums, he never will unless he drops one at some point in the future. meanwhile, Midnight Marauders is a classic record which is way more style than subtance, just recite the lyrics to Award Tour in your head if you don't believe me. the lyrics aren't super complicated and they ain't got to be. I enjoy it all the same.

BLACK BART SIMPSON
06-30-2010, 10:53 PM
Beats have always been more important than lyrics.

A great beat with lame lyrics is still a good track = In Da Club
A lame beat with great lyrics is still a wack track = Immobilarity

You can take the lyrics away from a track, and its still music. You can still bump your head. How often do people listen to acapella? That isn't music, its spoken word.

in da club was the shit when it first came out...no gas

BIG D O
07-01-2010, 03:04 AM
see, that's crazy though, while some contend that the production on Ras', Chino and Bis's debuts was "lame", I happen to think that it was above board....sheeeeiiit, none of em' ever went on to create albums that could match the production on their debuts, not even Rass, who had Dre giving him beats for "Rassassination"...only one that ever did it was Bis'; who commissioned Stoupe for a whole album....

that first Canibus album always gets that label and I can't stand that shit...the beats on that album were dope man....dope!