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-   -   Che Guevara - What's ur take? (http://www.wutang-corp.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30407)

L~>1<~NKS 12-15-2006 07:42 PM

Che Guevara - What's ur take?
I jus had a bit of a altercation wit this Borican female about thiz dood.

I beleive he was an assassin, an executioner, and a coward. Do yall think that? Or think otherwise.
I ask this cuz there'z sum form of cult depictin this dood as a hero, even in Hip Hop!

Nas even praised this dood in Stillmatic and I've seen JayZ where hiz shirtz!

Am I missin sumthin yall - why would u sweat a man like this?? Please discuss....

Here'z an article and the last one on hiz death:

The Cult of Che Don't applaud The Motorcycle Diaries.

By Paul Berman
Posted Friday, Sept. 24, 2004, at 7:33 AM ET
http://img.slate.com/media/55/040924...ediaries01.jpgPortrait of the insurgent as a young man
The cult of Ernesto Che Guevara is an episode in the moral callousness of our time. Che was a totalitarian. He achieved nothing but disaster. Many of the early leaders of the Cuban Revolution favored a democratic or democratic-socialist direction for the new Cuba. But Che was a mainstay of the hardline pro-Soviet faction, and his faction won. Che presided over the Cuban Revolution's first firing squads. He founded Cuba's "labor camp" system—the system that was eventually employed to incarcerate gays, dissidents, and AIDS victims. To get himself killed, and to get a lot of other people killed, was central to Che's imagination. In the famous essay in which he issued his ringing call for "two, three, many Vietnams," he also spoke about martyrdom and managed to compose a number of chilling phrases: "Hatred as an element of struggle; unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective, and cold-blooded killing machine. This is what our soldiers must become …"— and so on. He was killed in Bolivia in 1967, leading a guerrilla movement that had failed to enlist a single Bolivian peasant. And yet he succeeded in inspiring tens of thousands of middle class Latin-Americans to exit the universities and organize guerrilla insurgencies of their own. And these insurgencies likewise accomplished nothing, except to bring about the death of hundreds of thousands, and to set back the cause of Latin-American democracy—a tragedy on the hugest scale.

The Death of Che Guevara: Declassified

by Peter Kornbluh

On October 9th, 1967, Ernesto "Che" Guevara was put to death by Bolivian soldiers, trained, equipped and guided by U.S. Green Beret and CIA operatives. His execution remains a historic and controversial event; and thirty years later, the circumstances of his guerrilla foray into Bolivia, his capture, killing, and burial are still the subject of intense public interest and discussion around the world.
As part of the thirtieth anniversary of the death of Che Guevara, the National Security Archive's Cuba Documentation Project is posting a selection of key CIA, State Department, and Pentagon documentation relating to Guevara and his death. This electronic documents book is compiled from declassified records obtained by the National Security Archive, and by authors of two new books on Guevara: Jorge Castañeda's Compañero: The Life and Death of Che Guevara (Knopf), and Henry Butterfield Ryan's The Fall of Che Guevara (Oxford University Press). The selected documents, presented in order of the events they depict, provide only a partial picture of U.S. intelligence and military assessments, reports and extensive operations to track and "destroy" Che Guevara's guerrillas in Bolivia; thousands of CIA and military records on Guevara remain classified. But they do offer significant and valuable information on the high-level U.S. interest in tracking his revolutionary activities, and U.S. and Bolivian actions leading up to his death.

Im sure this gonna be moved to "Know the Ledge" but I hardly see headz goin there.

MASTER PAI MEI 12-15-2006 07:52 PM

Che was Castro's right hand man he helped keep the US government from controlling Cuba??

noel411 12-15-2006 08:04 PM

I didn't read all of this thread, but my take on people who wear Che Guevara shirts is that they're some of the biggest posers out there. I went to surf shop once an they had a surfboard shaped stand as the edge of a clothes rack, with a picture of Che Guevara on it, and I had to use everything I had to restrain myself from going back there and massacring everybody who worked there. I saw a car with a Che Guevara sticker on it the other day too. I was gonna wait for the owner and strangle them with a bit of fishing line, but I was in a hurry.

Anyway, I read a book of all the speeches and writings of Che, and I really found it quite boring. It was really fucken long too. Some of it was interesting, some was boring as fuck. As for the man, I respect him. The thing I found with his speeches and writings was that he relied too much on the commitment of his people to cause change. He had all these ideas but they he needed everybody to agree with him for them to actually be carried out. Still, he fought and died for a good cause. I respect that.

I wouldn't bother reading any bullshit articles about how "good" or "bad" he was. There's too much bullshit out there. I preferred to read the words from the man himself to get an idea of what he was about.

LHX 12-15-2006 08:04 PM

somehow, the symbol of Che Guevara's face on a t-shirt has come to be synonymous wiff revoloution and activism

'rage against the machine'

but at this point it all seems to be about marketing and promotions

Che is a logo at this point

L~>1<~NKS 12-15-2006 09:44 PM

You all've made good points. Especially the one about the articles. But comin from a Cubans perspective - I respeck no man who has to kill people for speakin freely about the way they feel. Communism and oppression in anyway iz never a good thing anywhere.

Assassinz are assassinz - they kill because it's there way or IT'S A BULLET IN UR HEAD. I mean could u beleive that people weren't allowed to play saxaphones in Cuba when these knuckleheadz took over cuz they said it was invented by Adolph Sax who was born in Belgium and that cuntry was part of "the axis of evil"....MID U THIS WAS 1959 - A DECADE AND A HALF AFTER WWII.

And true Batista was the worst dictator Cuba ever had @ the time, but when he left (allegedly cuz the US gave him sum type of "offer") Castro and Che threw the Cuban people a curve ball, like Bush throws us hiz curve ballz and lied and decieved to their people and massacred them.

Point iz that female got me heated, I'd fuck her brains out though. Maybe I misinterpered her or sum shit? Fuck it.

MASTER PAI MEI 12-15-2006 10:18 PM

Communism is what it is another system of control...

Castro is what he is a Dictator...

Che was what he was a man who had vision...

They both wanted to eliminate US control from small 3rd world countries...

BTW You ever see the documentary "The revolution will be televised"?

MASTER PAI MEI 12-15-2006 10:19 PM

I'm gonna move this to KTL now!

brown_dogg 12-15-2006 10:19 PM


Originally Posted by L1NKS (Post 682292)
And true Batista was the worst dictator Cuba ever had @ the time, but when he left (allegedly cuz the US gave him sum type of "offer") Castro and Che threw the Cuban people a curve ball, like Bush throws us hiz curve ballz and lied and decieved to their people and massacred them.

I thought Batista left because Castro attacked and overthrew him. He fled on Jan 1st i think. He was a dictator cuz the U.S. instated him though.

Synthetic 12-15-2006 10:22 PM

Che Was A G Dont Hate

L~>1<~NKS 12-16-2006 11:32 AM


Originally Posted by bigben (Post 682319)
Communism is what it is another system of control...

Castro is what he is a Dictator...

Che was what he was a man who had vision...

They both wanted to eliminate US control from small 3rd world countries...

BTW You ever see the documentary "The revolution will be televised"?

Che may've had a vision, but then what - he got killed, why cuz he was still followed a dictator instead of putting hiz visionz to work. Actions speak louder than wordz Ben... Che was a coward IMO.

I've only heard about the doc - never got around to readin it.

L~>1<~NKS 12-16-2006 11:38 AM


Originally Posted by Synthetic (Post 682324)
Che Was A G Dont Hate

Exactly he was a gangsta - but he killed people who had passions. He killed cuz it wuz hiz way or Castro's way or fuck u.

That ain't the G ur talkin about sun, that ain't the G I know - so if u gon type sumthin that fuckin ridiculous express and stretch that shit so I can actually contimplate.

TAURO 12-16-2006 12:56 PM

Im so gonna post some shit here but I don't have time now.........I wanna get into this with you Links.

L~>1<~NKS 12-16-2006 01:57 PM


Originally Posted by TAURO DA GRIM LATIN (Post 682757)
Im so gonna post some shit here but I don't have time now.........I wanna get into this with you Links.


L~>1<~NKS 12-16-2006 02:19 PM

I couldn't have said it better myself (what the student wrote)

Che Guevara's Dubious Legacy

"Hatred is an element of struggle; relentless hatred of the enemy that impels us over and beyond the natural limitations of man and transforms us into effective, violent, selective, and cold killing machines. Our soldiers must be thus; a people without hatred cannot vanquish a brutal enemy." http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/che.jpg
Che Guevara
Message to the Tricontinental

In the United States the generation of the 1960's spoke often about love and peace, yet this generation carried the image of a man who advocated the use of hatred as a means to an end into their marches and into their dormitories. The image of Che Guevara hanging in the College dorms of young student radicals in the 90's may be cliche, but his message is not. In his Message to the Tricontinental Guevara argued that hatred was something to be harnessed and used for as he put it, "an element of struggle." Not only as an element to struggle against injustice, but to be used to perpetrate new injustices. Guevara describes the utilization of hatred or as he put it "relentless hatred" to "impel us over and beyond the natural limitations of man." This use of hatred to encourage the dehumanization of ones enemy is but another manifestation of the doctrine found throughout the centuries to justify mass murder and torture.

If hate was the solution to all our problems than the victors of this century would have been men like: Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot. Instead they are viewed in most quarters as mass murderers and criminals except for those who are blinded by their "relentless hatred" of their fellow man. History has demonstrated two fundamental approaches to change the face of the world. One way views hatred as an element of the struggle and has been the way for such leaders as: Lenin, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and Fidel Castro.
The second way is an alternative to harnessing hatred, and tragically it is the road less traveled. It is the path blazed with the words of Jesus Christ who said, "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you." This path has and continues to be followed by men of such diverse backgrounds as Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., Lech Walesa, and Vaclav Havel. These men have demonstrated that hatred is something to be overcome, not an "element of struggle," but rather a stumbling block to freedom.
Ours is a battle both of the soul and the material realm. Our enemy is hatred. We have good reason to hate Fidel Castro and his co-conspirators. They have imprisoned tens of thousands of prisoners of conscience, attempted to brainwash a generation, enslaved the Cuban people in a retro-feudal state Castroism created, they have divided families, made political ideology a litmus test for patriotism, created an exile that comprises nearly 20% of the Cuban population,and murdered thousands.
To defeat despotism, we must conquer and destroy our own hatred. We must reject Che Guevara's argument that hatred is good because it, "transforms us into effective, violent, selective, and cold killing machines." We must act not out of hatred for Castro,but out of love for the Cuban people. This should be what drives our purpose and our strategies to bring liberty and justice to the Cuban nation. We will not compromise with evil. We will overcome it. We will exercise our fundamental rights as Cubans and as human beings to be free and moral beings. If they wish to butcher us or imprison us, then it is they who are at fault. If we are to die for the cause of freedom while exercising our God given rights, then we have done nothing wrong.
On July 13, 1994 Castro's agents attacked a tug-boat full of women and children trying to head for sanctuary in a foreign land. They were met by tugs who used high pressure hoses to knock these refugees overboard into the sea, and later these agents rammed the boat drowning 41 passengers. 21 of which were women and children.
One year later on July 13, 1995 Cuban exiles traveled in a flotilla into Cuban waters to honor those who had been massacred a year earlier seeking freedom. We were met by military gunboats, military helicopters, and military jets. We came bearing white roses and a priest to pray over the watery grave of the victims. As we exercised our fundamental right to enter and exit our national territory, the lead ship, Democracia, was rammed, and exiles seriously injured. The exile's response to the military personnel was "brothers, please don't do this."
On October 10, 1995 the Cuban Council "Concilio Cubano" was born, a coalition of civic, political, labor, and human rights organizations joined together in the rebirth of Cuba's civil and moral society. 130 opposition groups joined together on the following mutual points of agreement: respect for human rights, amnesty for all political prisoners, and the re-establishment of the rule of for all Cubans inside and outside of Cuba. The Cuban Council requested permission to hold a national convention on Feb. 24, 1996. Castro could not allow such a coalition to exist because it is a mortal threat to him. This Council looks to the future of the Cuban nation, and charts a course away from the culture of hatred, death, and disaster Castro has brought to the island.
On February 24, 1996 when Concilio Cubano was to meet; Cuba's secret police continued the sweep started weeks earlier to crush the coalition, and Cuban MiGs killed four men who at the time were engaged in a search and rescue mission for Cuban rafters in the Florida Straits. One of these men, Armando Alejandre Jr. was a member of the Committee in support of the Cuban Council in Miami. He was also a 1988 graduate of Florida International University.
How has the exile responded to these outrages: with prayer, sadness for those who have lost loved ones, a renewed call to non-violent confrontation, and finally with another flotilla to honor those who perished at the hands of a tyranny driven by hate.
Che's legacy in Cuba is one neighbor spying on another, high suicide rates, and a generation of young Cubans risking their lives on rafts in the Florida Straits rather than continue to live under a despotic government. A people cannot prosper in a regime founded and based in hatred. We must transcend hate, and we must overcome evil for Cuba to be free. By John Suarez

Only thing about thiz iz - I'll fight b4 I pray, but never out of hate, I'll fight for the People of Cuba and for those that struggle like us or worse than us - real talk.

Big Lu where u @!?! Get in on this one sun.... I gotta go to a Xmas party and get blasted and fuck women (I hope)


Frontal Lobotomy 12-16-2006 02:46 PM

He was a good man, who lived and died for the people. I'm sure he's turning in his unmarked grave at the prospect of all the faux socialists out there wearing t-shirts with his face on them

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