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    ...born of a future war Face of the Golden Falcon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMJ View Post
    How was it used in the ancient times?
    For the most part it was reserved for the higher ups and it's knowledge was hidden from the masses (like a lot of spiritual sciences). Why would this knowledge be occulted if it was just a load of BS? These days it is disclosed but the masses only receive it in a watered down version.

    Quote Originally Posted by FMJ View Post
    So a person sees patterns and cycles that coincide with it. An explanation for this could be that the readings of this astrological science are so general so that they could apply to all humans at certain times in their lives.
    That could be an explanation, but as I said in a post to Fatal, a true astrological reading takes into account much more than just the sun sign of the persons birth month. And it would not be that they could apply "to all humans at certain times in their lives" because the reading would account for when the patterns and changes in cycles take place.

    Quote Originally Posted by FMJ View Post
    The cunning person must know a general knowledge of people's hopes and dreams, the potential choices that humans could make, make note of certain times and seasons that certain events occur based on historical patterns, etc.
    I'm not saying this doesn't happen, but this relys on your assumption that all people who have ever been successful at reading a person astrologically were deliberatly trying to swindle them. This spanning the globe in multiple cultures over thousands of years, not one honest astrologer amongst them?

    Quote Originally Posted by FMJ View Post
    It is not sound, for the only sound logic is deductive (if the rules are followed). Metaphor falls under the category of analogy and as such, is not free from error.
    The metaphor itself may not be logic, I'll concede that, but behind the metaphor there may lie a logical truth which is the case for true astrology which is based on universal laws.

    And in fact it was incorrect to label the planets as metaphors in the first place. They are not. That would be like saying a calander is a metaphor for the seasons, days, months and years. It's not. It's a way to keep track of the seasons, days, months and years. The celestial bodies act in the same manner as a calander except they are much more accurate because they themselves are woven into the web of cycles that they keep track of.

    Quote Originally Posted by FMJ View Post
    They are metaphors for greek and roman so-called 'gods' and their attributes.
    So the planets (actual objects in the empiracly known universe) are metaphors for greek and roman gods (of which there is no proof they exist as empiracly knowable "things")???

    Quote Originally Posted by FMJ View Post
    What I mean by 'energies' are emotions and human characteristics.
    I know. But do you think the energy that makes someone angry, red, hot and bothered is any different than the energy that underlies the scorching hot summer weather, or the hot, dry, arid desert lands or the hot, spicy pepper? Many ancient cultures understood them to be the same and it led to an understanding of the universe that western science is only now beginning to see was right and exact.

    Quote Originally Posted by FMJ View Post
    Yes, they were last on the scene, however, when I looked up some info on this, here is what I've found:
    Are we still talking exclusively of western astrology? Because I've been talking of the science of astrology as a whole, not just any one particular form.

    Quote Originally Posted by FMJ View Post
    Maybe the planets were metaphors for other things, after some additional elements from the Europeans, those planets took on the meanings we have now.
    The planets were never metaphors for anything, as I said. They are representations of the archtypical energy which sustains their existence. If I form a club of people with dreadlocks, I, as an emprically known existing person with dreadlocks, can not not be called a metaphor for dreadlocks or for the dreadlock club or for a story about the members of the dreadlock club. I am a representation of the dreadlock club. If then by studying my movements and patterns of behavior and the movements and patterns of behavior of the other members of the dreadlock club and it is shown that the movements and behaviors of any one member can give an accurate insight into the movements and behavior of the other members, both as individuals and a whole then you are using deductive logic and can make predictions about certain members movement and behavior. Hope that some how makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by FMJ View Post
    Some questions to think about:

    Why are the initial conditions more important than all subsequent conditions for one’s personality and traits? Why is the moment of birth chosen as the significant moment rather than the moment of conception? Why aren’t other initial conditions such as one’s mother’s health, the delivery place conditions, forceps, bright lights, dim room, back seat of a car, etc., more important than whether Mars is ascending, descending, culminating, or fulminating? Why isn’t the planet Earth—the closest large object to us in our solar system--considered a major influence on who we are and what we become? Other than the Sun and the Moon and an occasional passing comet or asteroid, most planetary objects are so distant from us that any influences they might have on anything on our planet are likely to be wiped out by the influences of other things here on Earth.
    A lot of those questions can be answered with "they are". Some forms of astrology do take the conception date into account. Other questions have already been answered so are completely irrelevant (the ones that see the celestial bodies as having a direct influence on us rather than as a means of tracking and representing the influences. Even wackypedia knows this so I'm not going to continue repeating it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology Cycles of change that are observed in the heavens are therefore said to be reflective (not causative) of similar cycles of change observed on earth and within the individual.

    The rest can be answered if you open your mind to the possibilty that things like the mother's health, the delivery conditions etc are also governed by the same forces that underly the movement of the celestial bodies. All is accounted for in the great web of life, woven by the Supreme Architect.

    Ultimatley, your ending quote shows that you are not even willing to change your point of view on the most fundamental part of astrology (the part I put in green!) if you can't change your view point on that then there is little point to this discussion going any further.

    Last edited by Face of the Golden Falcon; 06-04-2012 at 03:56 AM.

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