Does Geometry prove a God's Existence? - Wu-Tang Corp. - Official Site of the Wu-Tang Clan

My First Timbs · 06-08-2005, 04:21 PM

While I was lecturing at a new jersey college this spring semester, a student posed a question to me about what i had just presented...

the student posed an interesting question that i thought i would post here

The point / question he raised to me was as follows

" how can you say that "god" doesn't exist or that there isnt anything
"greater" or some kind of all knowing intelligent force"? doesnt the
concept of geometry in and of itself mean that there has to be a god? (I
knew what he was getting at but i asked him to explain because i wanted the student to articulate it for the class)

His point was, even if we assume that the big bang and
all of that did occurr... and that evolution did indeed occur etc etc,,
there still has to be some "force" that governs or is in control of the
natural laws of our universe.

for example, how can man explain a triangle? a triangle has intrinsic
properties of logic tied into it! (those being in particular the
pythagorean theorum) c squared = a squared + b squared... also other
gemetric properties of the triangle have no explanation.. how does man
explain that a right angle is 90 degrees and that no matter what every
triangle will always be 180 degress etc etc...

this argument is a good one, but is indeed fallible and flawed in my view and reasoning.....

just wanted to post this here to fuel discussion....

do u agree or disagree with this student who presented a seemingly
"rational" argument for the existence of an "intelligent" force?

Wu-Tality · 06-08-2005, 04:48 PM

Pff, yeah but shit like that triangles are always 180 doesn't mean that it has to be god "intelligent force" that created it. Triangles are figures we earths made up, you don't find it in nature right. Im not that much into it though.

A better example should be the ball form, cause thats real.

002 · 06-08-2005, 04:56 PM

"there still has to be some "force" that governs or is in control of the
natural laws of our universe. "

yea. and that force is gravity. there's no such thing as God, or anything like that. it's pure bullshit. God is man made.

Rebel_INS · 06-08-2005, 05:17 PM

Man I dont know, that stuff is confusing lol

MantiZ · 06-08-2005, 05:54 PM

hmm it's a good argument.
i think proportions of human body are good argument too. i know that it's evolution, but still body of a healthy man has perfect geometrical proportions.

My First Timbs · 10-07-2005, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MantiZ

hmm it's a good argument.
i think proportions of human body are good argument too. i know that it's evolution, but still body of a healthy man has perfect geometrical proportions.

not true.. there is no perfect symmetry in man

our brains have evolved to "like" symmetry, but symmetry is not present in perfect form in humanity... our brains interpret symmetry as fertile and healthy...

there are solid evolutionary reasons for this.

My First Timbs · 06-08-2005, 06:08 PM

indeed

this is a good "rational" type of argument for a god's existence.. ( i only entertain rational arguments)

but anyway, this argument is indeed flawed!

it is flawed because basically, the natural laws that we have within our universe are laws of a fixed logic (by fixed logic, i mean that as humans our worldview is always based upon assigning values to things)

that fixed logic being one that was "created" or "deduced from nature" by sentient beings.. those sentient beings of course being us.
Triangles and all of the principles of "triangular-ness" only exist because we are here to think them up and assign a value to them. (this goes for most of logic in addition). Our rules of logic (which of course is always tied into mathematics on a fundamental level) only exists because we exist.

mathematics is a human construct, therefore, to use his example, a right angle is DEFINED as 90 degrees. Mathematics is a language with which we can describe the Universe we live in. The triangle describes a set of similar objects, which we define to obey a certain set of rules. Thus, a right-angled triangle is defined to be an object which has three sides, obeys Pythagoras's Theorem and whose angles add up to 180 degrees. Thus, the argument fails.

Prolifical ENG · 06-08-2005, 06:17 PM

You are right on that concept of mathematics that not everyone can grasp.

Even then, there are many properties of the universe that havent even been discovered yet...furthermore dont have any fixed values. Perhaps some unknown properties could prove god's existance

Oel · 06-08-2005, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by My First Timbs

mathematics is a human construct, therefore, to use his example, a right angle is DEFINED as 90 degrees. Mathematics is a language with which we can describe the Universe we live in. The triangle describes a set of similar objects, which we define to obey a certain set of rules. Thus, a right-angled triangle is defined to be an object which has three sides, obeys Pythagoras's Theorem and whose angles add up to 180 degrees. Thus, the argument fails.

Einstein said that his triangle had three 90 degree spots!!! BANGA

My First Timbs · 06-08-2005, 06:22 PM

there is always hope when it comes to the "unknown"..but we dont know the unknown. so we waste our time considering the unknown... we can only deal with what we have.... the "known"

Ronin · 06-08-2005, 06:26 PM

lol thats not really an arguement, force is not here for the purpose of man, the comet his earth because earth was in its way, it brought life to the planet

i personally dont beleive in god, id really like to but i beleive god is man made because we cant accept death

we are over evolved and thinkt oo bighly of ourselves, after all...is there a heaven for cats and dogs?

002 · 06-12-2005, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronin

lol thats not really an arguement, force is not here for the purpose of man, the comet his earth because earth was in its way, it brought life to the planet

i personally dont beleive in god, id really like to but i beleive god is man made because we cant accept death

we are over evolved and thinkt oo bighly of ourselves, after all...is there a heaven for cats and dogs?

fuck yea. god is 100% man made. it all started when cavemen who couldn't understand thunder and lightning and shit like that thought there must be someone up there.

Wooly Noggins · 06-12-2005, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oo2

fuck yea. god is 100% man made. it all started when cavemen who couldn't understand thunder and lightning and shit like that thought there must be someone up there.

cavemen ?
6000 years ago ?

MantiZ · 06-08-2005, 06:29 PM

why the hell you need heaven? think 'bout reincarnation.

cory299e8 · 10-09-2005, 02:41 PM

I'm a graduate student in mathematics. People dont understand that mathematics is an art. Sure, its as scientific as scientific can be, but ultimately you cant prove anything. thats not just some tired old argument about "i think therefore i am", its relevant every time anyone thinks they actually know anything.

God is by definition something whose existence is not physical (everyone has their own interpretation of the word "God", but everyone agrees that God is trancendental). So what do we even mean when we say "God exists" or "God does not exist"? Does the number 1 exist? Does beauty exist?

(ps- I do believe in that "God Exists". My point is that to even consider that a proof may be possible is to misunderstand the nature of God, existence, and knowledge.)

06-08-2005, 04:21 PM	#1
My First Timbs rationalist Join Date: Jun 2005 Age: 68 Posts: 1,288 Rep Power: 10	Does Geometry prove a God's Existence? While I was lecturing at a new jersey college this spring semester, a student posed a question to me about what i had just presented... the student posed an interesting question that i thought i would post here The point / question he raised to me was as follows " how can you say that "god" doesn't exist or that there isnt anything "greater" or some kind of all knowing intelligent force"? doesnt the concept of geometry in and of itself mean that there has to be a god? (I knew what he was getting at but i asked him to explain because i wanted the student to articulate it for the class) His point was, even if we assume that the big bang and all of that did occurr... and that evolution did indeed occur etc etc,, there still has to be some "force" that governs or is in control of the natural laws of our universe. for example, how can man explain a triangle? a triangle has intrinsic properties of logic tied into it! (those being in particular the pythagorean theorum) c squared = a squared + b squared... also other gemetric properties of the triangle have no explanation.. how does man explain that a right angle is 90 degrees and that no matter what every triangle will always be 180 degress etc etc... this argument is a good one, but is indeed fallible and flawed in my view and reasoning..... just wanted to post this here to fuel discussion.... do u agree or disagree with this student who presented a seemingly "rational" argument for the existence of an "intelligent" force?

06-08-2005, 04:48 PM	#2
Wu-Tality Metal Gear Join Date: Jun 2005 Age: 25 Posts: 1,684 Rep Power: 11	Re: Does Geometry prove a God's Existence? Pff, yeah but shit like that triangles are always 180 doesn't mean that it has to be god "intelligent force" that created it. Triangles are figures we earths made up, you don't find it in nature right. Im not that much into it though. A better example should be the ball form, cause thats real.

06-08-2005, 05:17 PM	#4
Rebel_INS Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: CA Age: 24 Posts: 2,623 Rep Power: 12	Re: Does Geometry prove a God's Existence? Man I dont know, that stuff is confusing lol __________________

06-08-2005, 05:54 PM	#5
MantiZ Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Latvia, United Streets of Adazhi (near Riga)) Age: 26 Posts: 1,046 Rep Power: 9	Re: Does Geometry prove a God's Existence? hmm it's a good argument. i think proportions of human body are good argument too. i know that it's evolution, but still body of a healthy man has perfect geometrical proportions. __________________ I wish all skinheads smelled like Mr.Clean.. "G-Unit's full of bitches Banks is a bitch Young Buck is a Bitch Tony Yayo is a bitch Fifty is a bitch Olivia's a bitch...HOLD UP! Olivia's a man!" The Game i can't commit suicide. suicide committed me. so my suicide is dead.

06-08-2005, 06:08 PM	#7
My First Timbs rationalist Join Date: Jun 2005 Age: 68 Posts: 1,288 Rep Power: 10	Re: Does Geometry prove a God's Existence? indeed this is a good "rational" type of argument for a god's existence.. ( i only entertain rational arguments) but anyway, this argument is indeed flawed! it is flawed because basically, the natural laws that we have within our universe are laws of a fixed logic (by fixed logic, i mean that as humans our worldview is always based upon assigning values to things) that fixed logic being one that was "created" or "deduced from nature" by sentient beings.. those sentient beings of course being us. Triangles and all of the principles of "triangular-ness" only exist because we are here to think them up and assign a value to them. (this goes for most of logic in addition). Our rules of logic (which of course is always tied into mathematics on a fundamental level) only exists because we exist. mathematics is a human construct, therefore, to use his example, a right angle is DEFINED as 90 degrees. Mathematics is a language with which we can describe the Universe we live in. The triangle describes a set of similar objects, which we define to obey a certain set of rules. Thus, a right-angled triangle is defined to be an object which has three sides, obeys Pythagoras's Theorem and whose angles add up to 180 degrees. Thus, the argument fails. __________________ Available Worldwide via these book sellers: Barnes and Noble Bookfinder.com Amazon.com Trafford Publishing Target

06-08-2005, 06:17 PM	#8
Prolifical ENG Semi Retired Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Toronto Age: 30 Posts: 9,706 Blog Entries: 1 Rep Power: 43	Re: Does Geometry prove a God's Existence? You are right on that concept of mathematics that not everyone can grasp. Even then, there are many properties of the universe that havent even been discovered yet...furthermore dont have any fixed values. Perhaps some unknown properties could prove god's existance __________________

06-08-2005, 06:22 PM	#10
My First Timbs rationalist Join Date: Jun 2005 Age: 68 Posts: 1,288 Rep Power: 10	Re: Does Geometry prove a God's Existence? there is always hope when it comes to the "unknown"..but we dont know the unknown. so we waste our time considering the unknown... we can only deal with what we have.... the "known" __________________ Available Worldwide via these book sellers: Barnes and Noble Bookfinder.com Amazon.com Trafford Publishing Target

06-08-2005, 06:26 PM	#11
Ronin WC LEGEND Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: BIRMINGHAM Age: 28 Posts: 1,061 Rep Power: 13	Re: Does Geometry prove a God's Existence? lol thats not really an arguement, force is not here for the purpose of man, the comet his earth because earth was in its way, it brought life to the planet i personally dont beleive in god, id really like to but i beleive god is man made because we cant accept death we are over evolved and thinkt oo bighly of ourselves, after all...is there a heaven for cats and dogs? __________________

06-08-2005, 06:29 PM	#14
MantiZ Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Latvia, United Streets of Adazhi (near Riga)) Age: 26 Posts: 1,046 Rep Power: 9	Re: Does Geometry prove a God's Existence? why the hell you need heaven? think 'bout reincarnation. __________________ I wish all skinheads smelled like Mr.Clean.. "G-Unit's full of bitches Banks is a bitch Young Buck is a Bitch Tony Yayo is a bitch Fifty is a bitch Olivia's a bitch...HOLD UP! Olivia's a man!" The Game i can't commit suicide. suicide committed me. so my suicide is dead.

10-09-2005, 02:41 PM	#15
cory299e8 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Age: 33 Posts: 9 Rep Power: 0	Re: Does Geometry prove a God's Existence? I'm a graduate student in mathematics. People dont understand that mathematics is an art. Sure, its as scientific as scientific can be, but ultimately you cant prove anything. thats not just some tired old argument about "i think therefore i am", its relevant every time anyone thinks they actually know anything. God is by definition something whose existence is not physical (everyone has their own interpretation of the word "God", but everyone agrees that God is trancendental). So what do we even mean when we say "God exists" or "God does not exist"? Does the number 1 exist? Does beauty exist? (ps- I do believe in that "God Exists". My point is that to even consider that a proof may be possible is to misunderstand the nature of God, existence, and knowledge.)

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