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Old 08-14-2009, 08:06 PM   #61
DrBold241
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i didn't refute your statement because i don't disagree.
God is Man.
and vice versa.
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Old 08-15-2009, 03:40 PM   #62
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i believe mankind holds the same power as god. we can create and destroy. we even created the idea of a god.
Man created god, and thus man can reject god
hmm
so you define "god" as one that can create and destroy
wouldn't you say the universe (outside of man) creates and destroys?
stars, planets, galaxies, solar systems....humans.
so it does so on a much larger scale than man - but like you said man shares in these qualities, but you do not view a god besides what humans accomplish?

did man create this "god" that can create and destroy on a much larger scale than we can? or is it the other way around?

you could say we created the idea of god - but then you could also say we created the idea of anything -
just because we give words to an observation doesn't mean it is not true
and just because we reject something doesn't mean it isn't there (like crow said, oxygen for example)
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Old 08-17-2009, 11:20 AM   #63
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you're using crow's example better but still the difference is you can test the absence of oxygen, you can't with god.
even moreso since there are countless individuals who refute the idea of god and an afterlife but still continue to maintain a healthy lifestyle.

so are you saying the universe itself is god? or better yet- god is life?
i could see that, but even still it's not a god in the metaphysical being sense.

do we all atleast agree the "man in the sky" ideal of god is just ridiculous?

if you're saying that god is life in itself than i can agree to that.
however if you're saying something sets off a star because the species on the surrounding planets have done wrong..... that's ridiculous and THAT i will forever refuse to believe.

God is not wrong, fundamentalism is.
seems to be my general message throughout this thread.
maybe i should change the title to what fuels someone to refute these religious fundamentalists such as evangelicals.

so i'll sum it up:
God is art, art is life, and thus god is life (or something along those lines) i can understand. does it completely fit how i see things necessarily? no. but i can understand the argument and don't exactly refute the idea to the fullest.
however- god in the "invisible man in the sky" sense is wrong.
believing in a judgment day is disturbing.
and ofcourse one should not spend too much of their time on earth dwelling about an afterlife as it may not even exist.
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Old 08-17-2009, 05:03 PM   #64
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nobody mentioned art. why you did..idk?


God is the medium from which reality vibrates.
that makes god omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent.
these are the 3 qualities that define God.

Yes. God is the universe. God is everywhere. God is you.

so there's your proof. reality itself.
prove that reality doesn't exist and you might be onto something.
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Old 08-18-2009, 10:28 AM   #65
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if god is reality and not a being,than my actions will not determine an afterlife.

and i mentioned art because.... eh it's why i don't need religion. why pray when i can just throw on a record, maybe take a toke or two, and be happy as can be?
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Old 08-18-2009, 05:04 PM   #66
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you are really hung up on this bible/prayer/religion thing aren't you?

your actions will determine your LIFE. idk about after that. i dont think i have died before but i'm not sure.

prayer-do you think to yourself? have you ever asked yourself a question? who the hell are you talking to? who is talking and who is doing the listening? (hold off on this. it deserves a thread. meet me there)


anyway...

there has to be an afterlife.
right now you exist on two planes spiritual and physical.
at the time when your brain can no longer anchor your mind to the physical plane(death), your spirit (will) does not disappear.

it was never physical in the 1st place so how can a physical death affect it?
a purely spiritual existence is not bound by space or time.
i can't tell you what it is, but i know that my mind is not bound by space or time either. so i can only assume its similar to a dream.

idk. we'll both find out one day and then you can kiss my spiritual ass at that point as i mock you for being so stiff minded on back earth.



peace
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Old 08-19-2009, 09:14 AM   #67
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prove to me this spiritual realm you speak of even exists.
not just your words.
but facts, excerpts from articles in the scientific community, not just testimony but EVIDENCE.

also show me any evidence to this afterlife you speak of. why does it HAVE to exist?
it exists as a means for human beings to cope with the death of a loved one.
it's denial to put your mind at ease, if you need that kind of thing....
i don't.

how's this.... if heaven or hell exists may my deceased family memembers come speak to me. if i hear some WW2 stories from my grandpa i'll let you know.
don't get your hopes up.
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Old 08-19-2009, 09:55 AM   #68
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now i KNOW you are not asking me for PHYSICAL evidence for a nonphysical plane?

you're joking right?



prove intuition
prove the source of an idea
prove introspection
prove analytical thought
prove subconscious thought
prove the contents of a dream
prove your memories exist


lets make it easy... prove you desire (want) something.
how do you prove that you wanted a career in paleontology, for example?

you'd have to bring that idea from the spiritual (unseen) into the physical(seen) by:

verbalizing-turning an idea into a physical vibration that is transmitted by matter and recieved by an eardrum.

applying your will- turning your desire into reality by pursuing a career in paleontology.

until you do one of those 2 things your desire(will) is unseen(spiritual) and cannot be tested. there is zero proof that you want a career in paleontology.

so do you mean to tell me that all your wants dreams and desires do not exist because you cannot provide empirical evidence for them?


you soundin really silly Bold, and thats saying alot coming from me.


you and i are living in the spiritual realm right now.
we live in the physical and spiritual simultaneously.



i never mentioned heaven or hell. please stop putting judeo-christian dogma in my mouth. i have nothing to do with that nonsense.


as far as your grandpap, maybe you aren't listening.
i would hope you aren't trying to hear him with your ears, cause his mouth is still on his corpse.
if he is trying to contact you its prolly on his plane, the spiritual. but you refuse to acknowledge that realm. so you'll prolly never communicate with him until you're dead.

personally i don't understand the rationale you use about "making someone feel better about death" regardless whether someone's spirit/animus/spark "goes to heaven" or "disappears" they are still inanimate(dead).
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Old 08-19-2009, 10:28 AM   #69
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I'm going to have a good hard think about this (I'm serious) and come back.

My friends and I are more focused on the humour surrounding the creationist vs. evolution debate, but I'm beginning to see how irrevelant that is (not just from this thread of course) and where the real issue lies.
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Old 08-19-2009, 12:00 PM   #70
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if you strip the conversation of weighted words like GOD, SOUL, SPIRIT everything i've been saying becomes much more palatable and actually is not a huge stretch of the imagination.
those are just words.. names. names that have taken on lives of their own. then twisted by the lies that have been told in order to control you.
or they have been distorted by those who took the metaphor and made it literal.

people look for angels and trumpets when searching for the divine, but fail to see the divinity staring them in the face.
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Old 08-19-2009, 11:12 PM   #71
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Hello guys

Whether or not one believes in or follows a religion has no bearing on the concept of (or their concept) of atheism.

Atheism is strictly disbelief in belief of a god.... religion (acknowledgement of an existence greater than ones self technically has no bearing on atheism)

Disbelief in religion or religious practices is not a form of atheism.

Disbelief in the concept of a god is atheism.

Just wanted to clarify that.

Atheism (disbelief in the concept of a god) is a default stance until there is a justifiable and objective reason to believe otherwise.

FOr something to be justifiable and objective, it must be falsifiable and able to be perceived without any preconceived suppositions.

For ex, belief in a metaphysical aspect to reality has yet to be presented as falsifiable (i.e an admission of what it would take to prove this claim wrong)..thus, according to reason and rational thought, it is an irrational stance.
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Old 08-20-2009, 12:25 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by My First Timbs View Post
Hello guys

Whether or not one believes in or follows a religion has no bearing on the concept of (or their concept) of atheism.

Atheism is strictly disbelief in belief of a god.... religion (acknowledgement of an existence greater than ones self technically has no bearing on atheism)

Disbelief in religion or religious practices is not a form of atheism.

Disbelief in the concept of a god is atheism.

Just wanted to clarify that.

Atheism (disbelief in the concept of a god) is a default stance until there is a justifiable and objective reason to believe otherwise.

FOr something to be justifiable and objective, it must be falsifiable and able to be perceived without any preconceived suppositions.

For ex, belief in a metaphysical aspect to reality has yet to be presented as falsifiable (i.e an admission of what it would take to prove this claim wrong)..thus, according to reason and rational thought, it is an irrational stance.
Very well said.
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Old 08-20-2009, 01:20 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by My First Timbs View Post
Hello guys

Whether or not one believes in or follows a religion has no bearing on the concept of (or their concept) of atheism.

Atheism is strictly disbelief in belief of a god.... religion (acknowledgement of an existence greater than ones self technically has no bearing on atheism)

Disbelief in religion or religious practices is not a form of atheism.

Disbelief in the concept of a god is atheism.

Just wanted to clarify that.
^^^
agree with all this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by My First Timbs View Post
Atheism (disbelief in the concept of a god) is a default stance until there is a justifiable and objective reason to believe otherwise.

FOr something to be justifiable and objective, it must be falsifiable and able to be perceived without any preconceived suppositions.

For ex, belief in a metaphysical aspect to reality has yet to be presented as falsifiable (i.e an admission of what it would take to prove this claim wrong)..thus, according to reason and rational thought, it is an irrational stance.


this is valid for an objectified topic of conversation. like unicorns.

but we are talking about a subjective topic. spirit/mind
and really the core of the theist atheist discussion.



i totally disagree with the default position being atheism.
ever since man became sentient, he has heard an inner voice.
even before he knew language. he was thinking. thought, that is not falsifiable.


simply put, the line of reasoning you presented does not apply to this topic.


now if you were to suggest that every individual has his own universe within... and i cannot falsify what goes on in ur universe but can in my own.... i might be inclined to follow your logic.

but as it stands, thought is not falsifiable, and by your line of reasoning, is irrational to believe thought exists.

but you and i both know thats not the case.



see the conundrum?
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Old 08-20-2009, 01:30 AM   #74
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"an admission of what it would take to prove this claim wrong"
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Old 08-21-2009, 04:31 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBold241 View Post
not about the existence, but about the belief.
organized religion is full of shit and is evidence that it didn't take long for mankind to learn that he can fool others inferior to him by lying.
word... belief aint the problem and everyone should be entitled to make their own choices without fear of violence or hatred... organized religion will not let that occur... stay outta the mosque and the church and study your scriptures as well as counterpoint books from athiests and make your own decisions... Peace and God Bless
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