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Old 05-07-2010, 04:44 AM   #16
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I am just wondering when will hellspawn realized prof is asking loaded questions to make islam look bad.

*exits thread*
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Old 05-07-2010, 05:11 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by FMJ View Post
I am just wondering when will hellspawn realized prof is asking loaded questions to make islam look bad.

*exits thread*
Im just asking questions...if islam is a good peaceful religion as muslims claim, then there is no way that it can look bad...????


But first I have to know what real islam is, because all these fanatical muslims and strict islamic regimes, all claim they are practicing pure islam, I just want to know who is telling the truth and who is not...So I can get a clear understanding of what real islam is.


peace be with you !

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Old 05-07-2010, 06:05 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by FMJ View Post
I am just wondering when will hellspawn realized prof is asking loaded questions to make islam look bad.

*exits thread*
I do realize but I'll answer him anyway.

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Originally Posted by prof zooruka View Post
what country is that ????? france ?????


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Tunisia (North Africa) but with a huge french bacround because colonised by them for almost 80 years.

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Originally Posted by prof zooruka View Post
hell, who at the moment practices the purest form of islam... The taliban, the wahabis of saudi arabia, al qaeda, katoubism..... ??????


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Look at the difference between the terms you used :

The Taliban : a political movement
The Wahabis of saudi arabia : a religious sect (also said about a government)
Al Quaeda : a jihadist organisation
Katoubism : an islamic ideology

And do you want me to choose who practices the purest form of islam between those ?

A true muslim is mr everybody who follows the teachings of the Quran and the sunna and whom the ultimate goal is the social justice in the community and who's moderate in his thinkings and his actings (except when it comes to worship) whether he lives in Afghanistan or in the USA.
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Old 05-07-2010, 06:13 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by prof zooruka View Post
Im just asking questions...if islam is a good peaceful religion as muslims claim, then there is no way that it can look bad...????


But first I have to know what real islam is, because all these fanatical muslims and strict islamic regimes, all claim they are practicing pure islam, I just want to know who is telling the truth and who is not...So I can get a clear understanding of what real islam is.


peace be with you !
You just told it yourself, you only talk about fanatical muslims and strict islamic regimes, it's like I only associate christianity to the KKK, the Army of God, the Northern Ireland civil war, the crusades, etc...

You can have a clear idea of what islam is if you try to open a Quran and read a few pages. This is the source, after that everybody can make its own saucage and say islam said this and islam said that.
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Old 05-07-2010, 06:26 AM   #20
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Islam is also principles for every day's life, here's a brief example :

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

[5:1] O you who believe, you shall fulfill your covenants. Permitted for you to eat are the livestock, except those specifically prohibited herein. You shall not permit hunting throughout Hajj pilgrimage. GOD decrees whatever He wills.

[5:2] O you who believe, do not violate the rites instituted by GOD, nor the Sacred Months, nor the animals to be offered, nor the garlands marking them, nor the people who head for the Sacred Shrine (Ka`bah) seeking blessings from their Lord and approval. Once you complete the pilgrimage, you may hunt. Do not be provoked into aggression by your hatred of people who once prevented you from going to the Sacred Masjid. You shall cooperate in matters of righteousness and piety; do not cooperate in matters that are sinful and evil. You shall observe GOD. GOD is strict in enforcing retribution.

[5:3] Prohibited for you are animals that die of themselves, blood, the meat of pigs, and animals dedicated to other than GOD. (Animals that die of themselves include those) strangled, struck with an object, fallen from a height, gored, attacked by a wild animal - unless you save your animal before it dies - and animals sacrificed on altars. Also prohibited is dividing the meat through a game of chance; this is an abomination. Today, the disbelievers have given up concerning (the eradication of) your religion; do not fear them and fear Me instead. Today, I have completed your religion, perfected My blessing upon you, and I have decreed Submission as the religion for you. If one is forced by famine (to eat prohibited food), without being deliberately sinful, then GOD is Forgiver, Merciful.

[5:4] They consult you concerning what is lawful for them; say, "Lawful for you are all good things, including what trained dogs and falcons catch for you." You train them according to GOD's teachings. You may eat what they catch for you, and mention GOD's name thereupon. You shall observe GOD. GOD is most efficient in reckoning.

[5:5] Today, all good food is made lawful for you. The food of the people of the scripture (christians and jews) is lawful for you. Also, you may marry the chaste women among the believers, as well as the chaste women among the followers of previous scripture, provided you pay them their due dowries. You shall maintain chastity, not committing adultery, nor taking secret lovers. Anyone who rejects faith, all his work will be in vain, and in the Hereafter he will be with the losers.

[5:6] O you who believe, when you observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), you shall: (1) wash your faces, (2) wash your arms to the elbows, (3) wipe your heads, and (4) wash your feet to the ankles. If you were unclean due to sexual orgasm, you shall bathe. If you are ill, or traveling, or had any digestive excretion (urinary, fecal, or gas), or had (sexual) contact with the women, and you cannot find water, you shall observe the dry ablution (Tayammum) by touching clean dry soil, then rubbing your faces and hands. GOD does not wish to make the religion difficult for you; He wishes to cleanse you and to perfect His blessing upon you, that you may be appreciative.

[5:7] Remember GOD's blessing upon you, and His covenant that He covenanted with you: you said, "We hear and we obey." You shall observe GOD; GOD is fully aware of the innermost thoughts.

[5:8] O you who believe, you shall be absolutely equitable, and observe GOD, when you serve as witnesses. Do not be provoked by your conflicts with some people into committing injustice. You shall be absolutely equitable, for it is more righteous. You shall observe GOD. GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do.

[5: 11] GOD promises those who believe and lead a righteous life forgiveness and a great recompense.

[5:10] As for those who disbelieve and reject our revelations, they are the dwellers of Hell.

etc etc etc
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Old 05-07-2010, 07:53 AM   #21
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You can have a clear idea of what islam is if you try to open a Quran and read a few pages. This is the source, after that everybody can make its own saucage and say islam said this and islam said that.
I don`t want to seem like im beating a dead horse, but has not the wahabi`s, the alqaeda`s, the taliban, koranic scholars and the regular practicing muslim all read the same quran ??? So therefore they all have access to the same text....So the wahabi`s, the alqaeda`s, the taliban scholars and the regular muslim know what the quran says about how to live like a true muslim,..am I right ????

the point Im trying to make is.... all claim without a doubt to be doing exactly what the koran says to do...... So one of them must be practicing proper or close to proper islam, as perscribed in the quran, I just want to know which one....I find it hard to believe with all the scholars and islamic intellectuals who have spent years studying the quran and hadiths, and gave the wahabi`s, alqaeda or the taliban there ideology still couldn`t manage with all there years of research to work out how to follow what the quran says properly and therefore practice true islam....... ,but yet according to you the average joe blow who reads the quran can be practicing true islam and get the point of the message but yet the scholars or spiritual leaders who give the islamists movements or islamic governments there ideology miss the point and practice a deviiant version of islam ?????


peace be with you !

Last edited by zooruka; 05-07-2010 at 07:59 AM.
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Old 05-07-2010, 08:06 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by prof zooruka View Post
I don`t want to seem like im beating a dead horse, but has not the wahabi`s, the alqaeda`s, the taliban, koranic scholars and the regular practicing muslim all read the same quran ??? So therefore they all have access to the same text....So the wahabi`s, the alqaeda`s, the taliban scholars and the regular muslim know what the quran says about how to live like a true muslim,..am I right ????
Don't the the KKK, the Army of God, the crusaders, the zionists read the same Bible ? this is a problem of understanding of the scripture every body analyse it the way he wants (I think I typed this sentence 3000 times )

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Originally Posted by prof zooruka View Post
the point Im trying to make is.... all claim without a doubt to be doing exactly what the koran says to do...... So one of them must be practicing proper or close to proper islam, as perscribed in the quran, I just want to know which one....I find it hard to believe with all the scholars and islamic intellectuals who have spent years studying the quran and hadiths, and gave the wahabi`s, alqaeda or the taliban there ideology still couldn`t manage with all there years of research to work out how to follow what the quran says properly and therefore practice true islam....... ,but yet according to you the average joe blow who reads the quran can be practicing true islam and get the point of the message but yet the scholars or spiritual leaders who give the islamists movements or islamic governments there ideology miss the point and practice a deviiant version of islam ?????

peace be with you !
Do you have any idea of the proportion of the islamists compared to the 1.5 billion muslims in the world ? if we were all fanatis we would have colonised the world since my parents birth.
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Old 05-07-2010, 07:41 PM   #23
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Don't the the KKK, the Army of God, the crusaders, the zionists read the same Bible ? this is a problem of understanding of the scripture every body analyse it the way he wants (I think I typed this sentence 3000 times ).

So what you are saying hell is , there is no such thing as pure islam, because it all comes down to ones interpretation of scipture ???? even if this is the case there still must be some universal truths with in the koran truths that cannot be mis- interpreted in any way to mean anything other than what it says ???? With that said you still haven`t really given me a definant answer about who is practicing the closet to a pure version of islam (the universal truths) which is universally recognised by other muslims as being or some what being the closest form of correct islam, the islamist`s, the islamic governments or the everyday practicing muslims...because from my point of view these are the only muslims there are...unless there is another group that im not aware of ?????


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Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
Do you have any idea of the proportion of the islamists compared to the 1.5 billion muslims in the world ? if we were all fanatis we would have colonised the world since my parents birth.
Yes you may not be all fanatical, but that just might mean the majority of muslims are not practicing islam as prescribed in the koran....and if they where then there might be 1.5 billion bin laden`s out there????

See this is why im trying to understand what real islam is...so I can know who is practicing it proper and who is not, then I can get a clear picture of the religion.


peace be with you !
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Old 05-07-2010, 07:44 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by prof zooruka View Post
So what you are saying hell is , there is no such thing as pure islam, because it all comes down to ones interpretation of scipture ???? even if this is the case there still must be some universal truths with in the koran truths that cannot be mis- interpreted in any way to mean anything other than what it says ???? With that said you still haven`t really given me a definant answer about who is practicing the closet to a pure version of islam (the universal truths) which is universally recognised by other muslims as being or some what being the closest form of correct islam, the islamist`s, the islamic governments or the everyday practicing muslims...because from my point of view these are the only muslims there are...unless there is another group that im not aware of ?????




Yes you may not be all fanatical, but that just might mean the majority of muslims are not practicing islam as prescribed in the koran....and if they where then there might be 1.5 billion bin laden`s out there????

See this is why im trying to understand what real islam is...so I can know who is practicing it proper and who is not, then I can get a clear picture of the religion.


peace be with you !
The everyday muslim.
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Old 05-07-2010, 07:49 PM   #25
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The everyday muslim.
o.k now you gave me a definant answer...thanks hell.


Now I can form my view on islam properly.





peace be with you !
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Old 11-24-2010, 10:32 AM   #26
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so should we treat it like sufism

or like the khawaaltyi (pardon spelling)
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Old 11-25-2010, 02:31 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Allahs_Disciple View Post
so should we treat it like sufism

or like the khawaaltyi (pardon spelling)
Sufis are not a danger for islam as the shiia are.

It is better to not belong to any sect or school of thinking, just follow the Quran and sayings of the prophet.
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Old 11-25-2010, 04:26 PM   #28
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Sufis are not a danger for islam as the shiia are.

It is better to not belong to any sect or school of thinking, just follow the Quran and sayings of the prophet.
thanks

but to my understand the way you explain it is the way i believe Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) wanted

as far as the sufism question

i know about it but my knowledge may not be as vast as it should be

Sufism, the Religion of the Heart
The subject of Sufism has been interpreted in various ways in India , Arabia , and other Middle Eastern countries over hundreds of years. This subject is also found in numerous historical documents as well as in contemporary publications, and yet to the question, ‘what is Sufism?’ there seems to be no precise definition which could satisfy the curiosity of those who, in the disguise of seekers on the spiritual path, are searching only for the key to performing wonders.

Sufism is neither a religion nor a cult nor a sect, nor is it only from the East or from the West. Sufism, which means wisdom, has always been and shall always be an open door to Truth; the wise feel sympathy towards all beliefs, while at the same time avoiding speculation upon abstract concepts. Sufism believes in the Divine origin of every form of worship in which the unity of religious ideals is respected.

Sufism, which is without any religious obligations, regards spirituality as the religion of the heart. That religion is one wherein the unity of religious ideals is followed unconditionally in search of truth, without going astray in following the followers of the followers of the great religious reformers, whose messages have been altered beyond recognition through the centuries by those who confuse mysticism with fanaticism.

In Sufism there is no place for comparisons or preferences. All Messengers are regarded with the same respect and their messages are worshiped with the same veneration, knowing that Buddha was not a Buddhist, Christ was not a Christian, and Mohammed was not a Mohammedan. They were bringers of new impulses of the Divine Message, which the multitude uses as toys to play with, and impostors use for power games.

Sufism is an attitude of inner sympathy towards all beliefs. All religions are Sufi religions as long as they recognize the limits inherent in any speculative interpretation of Truth. One might say that Sufism is a process leading to the widening of the horizon of the heart, so that Truth may shine within as a brilliant sun, illuminating all that is receptive of its rays of light.

Through the ages there has been one religion after another, but each one came as a confirmation of the previous one. Now, in our century and with the development of science and communication, it has become clear that each religion had a special purpose to fulfil at a particular period of human evolution. For the wise, one can only be really attuned to any religion if one’s heart is open to all religious beliefs with the same love and understanding for each.

The word Sufi means wisdom, but that does not mean that when pursuing the Sufi path one is necessarily wise. Sufism is a test with which one is constantly confronted, when expected to show an example of how well one understands what spirituality truly is. Spirituality does not mean drifting away upon the clouds of illusion; it means having the feet firmly on the ground of reality, proving thereby, without pretence to have acquired discipline over the physical and mental energies. It is only then that one can possibly inspire others on the path where honesty in spirituality is the watchword.

A Sufi is a religious soul whose nature is to refuse to submit to imposed beliefs, and who is conscious that life is not necessarily just what one might think it to be, nor what one is told it to be. Life is not only lived at the level of physical experience, nor only at the level of thought, nor only at the level of feeling, but also, and most importantly, at a still higher level of consciousness, where the self is no more the barrier separating reality from illusion.

On the path of spirituality, one ventures to vanquish one’s own faults rather than to judge others, whose faults are not very different to one’s own. One tries to master one’s own feelings rather than misinterpreting those of others, and one treasures even the smallest sign of appreciation coming from those who are dependant upon one’s sympathy.

At this level of consciousness, there are neither limitations nor opposites, nor is there any relationship with pre-conceived ideas, such as those expressed in all dogmatic religious interpretations of Truth. When trying to explain God one only fashions an individual concept, limited to the size of ones thoughts.
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Old 11-25-2010, 04:30 PM   #29
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Do you think that Quran is based on sacred number(s), or may be only on number 19 ?
im well aware of the signifance of the number 7

what is in your opinion the difference between a prophet and a messenger?

why are blacks referred to a raisin heads in the hadith?
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Old 11-26-2010, 02:53 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Allahs_Disciple View Post
thanks

but to my understand the way you explain it is the way i believe Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) wanted

as far as the sufism question

i know about it but my knowledge may not be as vast as it should be

Sufism, the Religion of the Heart
The subject of Sufism has been interpreted in various ways in India , Arabia , and other Middle Eastern countries over hundreds of years. This subject is also found in numerous historical documents as well as in contemporary publications, and yet to the question, ‘what is Sufism?’ there seems to be no precise definition which could satisfy the curiosity of those who, in the disguise of seekers on the spiritual path, are searching only for the key to performing wonders.

Sufism is neither a religion nor a cult nor a sect, nor is it only from the East or from the West. Sufism, which means wisdom, has always been and shall always be an open door to Truth; the wise feel sympathy towards all beliefs, while at the same time avoiding speculation upon abstract concepts. Sufism believes in the Divine origin of every form of worship in which the unity of religious ideals is respected.

Sufism, which is without any religious obligations, regards spirituality as the religion of the heart. That religion is one wherein the unity of religious ideals is followed unconditionally in search of truth, without going astray in following the followers of the followers of the great religious reformers, whose messages have been altered beyond recognition through the centuries by those who confuse mysticism with fanaticism.

In Sufism there is no place for comparisons or preferences. All Messengers are regarded with the same respect and their messages are worshiped with the same veneration, knowing that Buddha was not a Buddhist, Christ was not a Christian, and Mohammed was not a Mohammedan. They were bringers of new impulses of the Divine Message, which the multitude uses as toys to play with, and impostors use for power games.

Sufism is an attitude of inner sympathy towards all beliefs. All religions are Sufi religions as long as they recognize the limits inherent in any speculative interpretation of Truth. One might say that Sufism is a process leading to the widening of the horizon of the heart, so that Truth may shine within as a brilliant sun, illuminating all that is receptive of its rays of light.

Through the ages there has been one religion after another, but each one came as a confirmation of the previous one. Now, in our century and with the development of science and communication, it has become clear that each religion had a special purpose to fulfil at a particular period of human evolution. For the wise, one can only be really attuned to any religion if one’s heart is open to all religious beliefs with the same love and understanding for each.

The word Sufi means wisdom, but that does not mean that when pursuing the Sufi path one is necessarily wise. Sufism is a test with which one is constantly confronted, when expected to show an example of how well one understands what spirituality truly is. Spirituality does not mean drifting away upon the clouds of illusion; it means having the feet firmly on the ground of reality, proving thereby, without pretence to have acquired discipline over the physical and mental energies. It is only then that one can possibly inspire others on the path where honesty in spirituality is the watchword.

A Sufi is a religious soul whose nature is to refuse to submit to imposed beliefs, and who is conscious that life is not necessarily just what one might think it to be, nor what one is told it to be. Life is not only lived at the level of physical experience, nor only at the level of thought, nor only at the level of feeling, but also, and most importantly, at a still higher level of consciousness, where the self is no more the barrier separating reality from illusion.

On the path of spirituality, one ventures to vanquish one’s own faults rather than to judge others, whose faults are not very different to one’s own. One tries to master one’s own feelings rather than misinterpreting those of others, and one treasures even the smallest sign of appreciation coming from those who are dependant upon one’s sympathy.

At this level of consciousness, there are neither limitations nor opposites, nor is there any relationship with pre-conceived ideas, such as those expressed in all dogmatic religious interpretations of Truth. When trying to explain God one only fashions an individual concept, limited to the size of ones thoughts.
Well, I wasnt aware of this definition of sufis maybe it is more general than sufi muslims because the ones I know are hermits type of people. They live away from the material things and are more mystic and spiritual than regular muslims.

The word sufi comes from suf صوف wich is wool because the sufis wear this material wich is minimal and more natural than others.

But of course like all muslims they believe in all the prophets and the religions wich is a duty of every muslim.

Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Musa and Isa, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit. (Quran 2:136)
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