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Old 12-17-2010, 08:25 PM   #16
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we already did that and thats why we are in the situation we're in now. you are collateral on the interest of the fed's financing.
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Old 12-17-2010, 08:32 PM   #17
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actually we prevented a fall; by rolling back the debt and supplying bailouts
so in a sense we increase the length of an actual fall of bankruptcy

now there only two options fix it or fall down harder then we would have prier to the recession

but if you want to fix it you will have to do what japan did and raise taxes

Last edited by Dokuro; 12-17-2010 at 08:35 PM.
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Old 12-18-2010, 09:41 AM   #18
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What are you talking about? Japan basically ruined their economy.

What we need to do is increase growth. That will get us out of the recession period, prevent a second dip, and the increased money will help us pay down the debt. Increase growth and reduce non growth related spending.
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Old 12-18-2010, 09:44 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Louis Cypher View Post
alright but stay out of Denmark that shits mine


do you have any ideas to fix whats going on
buy american

and if we could somehow start manufacturing these free energy devices i think that would pull us out of this mess
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Old 12-18-2010, 09:46 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Louis Cypher View Post
actually we prevented a fall; by rolling back the debt and supplying bailouts
so in a sense we increase the length of an actual fall of bankruptcy
at the same time making it 10X worse

china basically owns america now because they are our largest creditors
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Old 12-18-2010, 11:01 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Louis Cypher View Post
^^i'm programed your the one who fell away from odin

but your right the lies are half the problem , and now Obama just sign the bush tax cuts.

so its fucking over we going to gain another 3 trillion dollars. next year and 4 trillion after that. were are not going to get out of the whole.i like to give a big thank you to the republicans for being one steep closer to there 1,000 year kingdom

if thats the case then Lucifer all about raising taxes. because this current regime is in god control
You are obviously uneducated when it comes to the Bush tax cuts, what they are composed of, and their overall effect on Federal tax revenue.

As I said in the other thread, the BUSH TAX CUTS INCREASED FEDERAL TAX REVENUE!! THIS IS STATISTICALLY PROVEN!!



Obama wanted to EXTEND the Bush tax cuts because THEY WORKED!! Spending and revenue are two different beasts! The Demoncrats perform WORSE when it comes to BOTH!! You offer no proof. You are merely parroting what you watch on MSNBC from dumbfucks like Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow!

Please stop talking about something that you obviously have not educated yourself on and know nothing about. All you do is spread ignorance to those who may come to this forum to actually learn something.

I put it all in a spreadsheet to try to make it simple for you Smart-Dumb clowns.



Since Demoncrats have taken control of Congress, Federal Revenue has gone DOWN while Federal spending has gone UP. You guys fail on both sides of the equation. Conservatism is better. Democrats should not be trusted with fiscal policy. It is so ironic that they consistently ACCUSE Republicans of being the fiscally irresponsible ones. I admit that GWB's fiscal policies were too liberal. But they were still better than what we've seen the last four years with Democrats deciding our budget and spending. The numbers PROVE it. Your lips moving prove nothing.
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Old 12-18-2010, 11:29 AM   #22
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at the same time making it 10X worse

china basically owns america now because they are our largest creditors
This is also wrong. I feel like an elementary teacher marking your homework papers wrong. Red ink everywhere.

The following is a list of the Foreign Owners of U.S. Treasury Securities as listed by the U.S. Treasury:[24]
Leading Foreign owners of US Treasury Securities (July 2010) Nation/Territory billions of dollars percentage People's Republic of China (mainland) 846.7 20.8 Japan 821.0 20.2 United Kingdom 374.3 9.2 Oil exporters1 223.8 5.5 Caribbean Banking Centers2 150.7 3.7 Brazil 162.2 4.0 Hong Kong (Special Administrative Region) 135.2 3.3 Russia 130.9 3.2 Republic of China (Taiwan) 130.5 3.2 Grand Total 4065.8 100 1Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Libya, Iran, Iraq, the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Ecuador, Indonesia, Algeria, Gabon, and Nigeria
2Bahamas, Bermuda, Cayman Islands, Netherlands Antilles, British Virgin Islands and Panama
24 :Major Foreign holders of U.S. Treasury Securities (2008), U.S. Treasury Department.

A more updated figure is a grand total of 4300 billion. (http://www.treasury.gov/resource-cen...uments/mfh.txt)

4.3T divided by 13.9T national debt = ~ 31%
China: 907B / 13900B = less than 7%

Less than 1/3 of our debt is actually owned by foreigners. And one of the major reasons foreign countries like China buy American Treasuries is to keep their own currencies from inflating too much. The green dollar is still the number one currency in the world because no one expects that the American government system that backs our currency is going to collapse anytime soon.

Saying that China basically owns the USA is a really far stretch of the imagination. They own a large chunk of treasury bonds but for reasons I briefly explained. Their own economy is struggling and they DEPEND on exporting goods to the USA to keep their own economy moving. Not to say that the portion of our debt that is owed to China doesn't bother me some. It is a bad thing. And yes, owing money to other countries might indirectly have an effect on our political and economic sovereignty.

In all though, other countries investing in American treasuries isn't necessarily a bad thing. For one thing the interest we pay on that debt isn't at as bad a rate as it could be. People predict that the buying of US treasuries will actually decrease because better returns can be had elsewhere.

China or Japan or Taiwan want to get shitty with us? We slap heavy tariffs on what they export to us and they start begging for mercy. But that would mean that Americans don't get to buy cheap Chinese crap anymore.

It is sad that something such as this is manufactured and sold for cheaper than what we can make it for here ourselves:



But we at least pay employees a minimum wage, only make them work 40 hours a week, give them social security, holidays, retirement and all the other many great benefits that even the most lowly unskilled American workers get.
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Old 12-18-2010, 01:06 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Sense-A View Post
You are obviously uneducated when it comes to the Bush tax cuts, what they are composed of, and their overall effect on Federal tax revenue.

As I said in the other thread, the BUSH TAX CUTS INCREASED FEDERAL TAX REVENUE!! THIS IS STATISTICALLY PROVEN!!



Obama wanted to EXTEND the Bush tax cuts because THEY WORKED!! Spending and revenue are two different beasts! The Demoncrats perform WORSE when it comes to BOTH!! You offer no proof. You are merely parroting what you watch on MSNBC from dumbfucks like Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow!

Please stop talking about something that you obviously have not educated yourself on and know nothing about. All you do is spread ignorance to those who may come to this forum to actually learn something.

I put it all in a spreadsheet to try to make it simple for you Smart-Dumb clowns.



Since Demoncrats have taken control of Congress, Federal Revenue has gone DOWN while Federal spending has gone UP. You guys fail on both sides of the equation. Conservatism is better. Democrats should not be trusted with fiscal policy. It is so ironic that they consistently ACCUSE Republicans of being the fiscally irresponsible ones. I admit that GWB's fiscal policies were too liberal. But they were still better than what we've seen the last four years with Democrats deciding our budget and spending. The numbers PROVE it. Your lips moving prove nothing.
well built argument but lets break it down from # 2 first

notice how in that graph the decline whenever Reagenomics is in play.

do you notice how from Reagan to Clinton it goes down...good
thats because the same tax cuts were in play as now.


notice when Clinton removed the cuts on us. do you see how we gain a surplus.

now notice when bush reinstates the tax cuts. see how we have a deficit.

thats what you get with the current plain.



and on the second of course your always going to pay the same rate across the bored

but lets take a look at the cuts



lets say 10% is or current rate
and you get a cut at 10,000 a year that will return 4% of your revenue that gives you back 400 dollars directly from the government pocket no this prise gets to be astronomical once you hit 10,000,000,000, = 400,000,000 out of pocket now the government hopes this will cause a trickle down effect witch is why the offer this incentive.

but keep believe what you want, i make over 250,000 so i'm going to enjoy my cut why this county falls down
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Old 12-18-2010, 01:08 PM   #24
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if you want a full course take econ in college you see this is a bad idea

and the # clearly show that
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Old 12-18-2010, 02:27 PM   #25
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well built argument but lets break it down from # 2 first

notice how in that graph the decline whenever Reagenomics is in play.
First of all lets remember that during those Reagan years the Democrats were in control of congress and dictating our country's tax policy and spending. Annual revenue increased by ~$210 Billion from the first to last year of Reagan's presidency according to my excel numbers. Spending increased by about $400Billion which is hardly much compared to the durations of others' presidencies. Anything positive or negative you take from that should be attributed to Democrats' policies, unless you believe somehow that Reagan was using his veto power to govern what congress was doing. But I've never seen any evidence of that. I defended Reaganomics in another thread and don't recall anyone making a good argument against EXACTLY why Reagan gets the criticism from the left that he does. It is undeserved criticism. Reagan was a savior compared to the prior years that Jimmy Carter was in power. Inflation was RAMPANT during the Carter years. Inflation sucks. Jimmy Carter left our American hostages to die in Iran. He even recently admited himself some of the failures of his presidency. Jimmy Carter was a fucking peanut farmer. Guy did not know what the fuck he was doing. That's why we got rid of him after only 4 years. Reagan got us out of the economic recession that Carter was burying us in. Thank you Reagan. Sorry that liberals constantly criticize you even when you're in your grave without knowing any of the facts of your presidency.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis Cypher View Post
do you notice how from Reagan to Clinton it goes down...good
thats because the same tax cuts were in play as now.

notice when Clinton removed the cuts on us. do you see how we gain a surplus.

now notice when bush reinstates the tax cuts. see how we have a deficit.

thats what you get with the current plain.
First of all, what cuts? Please be specific. Tax policy during various administrations cannot be loosely termed "cuts" or "no cuts." That is like classifying everything from GzaGenius to souljah boy as "rap."

From Reagan to the beginning of Clinton's administration, federal tax revenue nearly doubled! Thats a good thing! Well, not if you're the one paying all the taxes. But from the viewpoint of our country as a whole it is a good thing! The Republicans used fair tax rates and still grew revenue. Why? Because not overtaxing business yields a larger base to tax!! taxing 40% of $10billion generates less revenue than when you lower taxes, the businesses expand, and you tax 20% of $100billion! Lower tax rate, higher revenue. Simple math.

The Democrats were in charge of congress from '87 to '94, and that is when they had higher spending than revenue. This is not the Republican president's fault. The President just signs whatever spending budget that the Democratically dominated congress puts in front of them, or else they veto it. But as time draws closer to a deadline, the country needs a budget, and the President just acknowledges and signs what Congress has put forth. If you are unhappy from '87 to '94, again, you should be directing your frustrations toward the Democratic congressmen of that time period.

The surplus (which really wasn't a surplus but that takes a long explanation) during the Clinton years is THANKS TO REPUBLICANS! Yes! Look at all the red in the excel spreadsheet. I highlighted those cells to indicate that the majority of Congress for those years were Republicans! Republicans balanced our budget and were running surpluses. Thanks Republicans! All Clinton did was sign the piece of paper in between catching blow jobs. Again, you are MISPLACING all your criticism and compliments.

Now I will agree with you on one thing. That GWB with a Republican led congress from 2002 until 2006 was fiscally irresponsible. But in retrospect to the last 30 years, Republicans have been much more conservative when it comes to both revenue generation for our Federal government and Federal spending.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis Cypher View Post
and on the second of course your always going to pay the same rate across the bored

but lets take a look at the cuts

lets say 10% is or current rate
and you get a cut at 10,000 a year that will return 4% of your revenue that gives you back 400 dollars directly from the government pocket no this prise gets to be astronomical once you hit 10,000,000,000, = 400,000,000 out of pocket now the government hopes this will cause a trickle down effect witch is why the offer this incentive.

but keep believe what you want, i make over 250,000 so i'm going to enjoy my cut why this county falls down
You are looking at who gets the bigger "cut." But that is irrelevant and just a parlor trick. WHAT REALLY MATTERS IS HOW MUCH SOMEONE EFFECTIVELY PAYS IN ANNUAL TAX! Not how much of a cut they get from what they paid last year. That is only a misleading decoy.


http://seekingalpha.com/article/2301...d?source=email

This chart shows that the top 1% of taxpayers (ranked by income) pay ~40% of all Federal income taxes; the top 5% (includes all those whose AGI exceeds $160K) pay ~60% of total taxes; and the top 10% pay 70% of all income taxes. You can find the data and commentary from The Tax Foundation here.

Those whom Obama would label as rich—those with incomes greater than 250K—and thus deserving of higher tax rates, paid (based on my interpolation of the data) about 50% of all Federal income taxes in 2008. Is that not enough of a burden?

Despite the 50% reduction in top marginal tax rates since 1980, the rich have paid progressively more and more of total income taxes.

That is the Laffer Curve at work!. And even more unfair is that the top 1% of income earners paid almost as much (92%) as the bottom 95%. We are deeply in a situation in which the few are supporting the many: the bottom 50% of income earners paid only 2.7% of total income taxes in 2008, and 52 million taxpayers paid no income taxes at all.

Basically, the rich already pay more than their share. You and I are the ones not paying our fair share. Shall we man up and raise taxes on ourselves then?
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Old 12-18-2010, 02:39 PM   #26
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In defense to the biased undue criticism towards Ronald Reagan I submit the following facts to the court:

Quote:
President Ronald Reagan's record includes sweeping economic reforms and deep across-the-board tax cuts, market deregulation, and sound monetary policies to contain inflation. His policies resulted in the largest peacetime economic boom in American history and nearly 35 million more jobs. As the Joint Economic Committee reported in April 2000:2

In 1981, newly elected President Ronald Reagan refocused fiscal policy on the long run. He proposed, and Congress passed, sharp cuts in marginal tax rates. The cuts increased incentives to work and stimulated growth. These were funda-mental policy changes that provided the foundation for the Great Expansion that began in December 1982.


As Exhibit 1 shows, the economic record of the last 17 years is remarkable, particularly when viewed against the backdrop of the 1970s. The United States has experienced two of the longest and strongest expansions in our history back to back. They have been interrupted only by a shallow eight-month downturn in 1990-91. http://www.heritage.org/research/rep...conomic-record


In my opinion, these are sound results.

Let's go back to my excel spreadsheet that I put together:



Please see the regions that I highlighted. Double digit year over year increases to our total deficit thanks to Democratic majority in Congress during those years. Like I said, Republicans are bad, but DEMOCRATS ARE WORSE!!

And this is proof. So next time your liberal professor starts ranting on about how everything is Ronald Reagan's fault, raise your hand and prove him wrong! And the next time your liberal teacher tries brainwashing your peers with liberal bullshit about how everything is the GOP's fault, you raise your hand and speak your voice and explain that however bad you claim the Republicans have done, the Democrats are actually even worse and neither party is the answer. Thats why Liberals should have been complimenting the Tea Party and the closest thing we've come to a third party instead of immediately advertising against it and shooting it down as some "fake grassroots" uprising as Democrat Ice Queen Nancy Pelosi so ignorantly put it.
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Old 12-18-2010, 02:47 PM   #27
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the thing that got passed yesterday!!!
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Old 12-18-2010, 02:48 PM   #28
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its killing us
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Old 12-18-2010, 03:03 PM   #29
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its killing us
No its not. The unemployment extensions that the DEMONcrats snuck in the bill as PORK are killing us. You are overtaxing the rich to pay people who don't work and aren't even dedicated to actually performing a job hunt. My brother is a manager and he says people come in all the time to get their unemployment papers signed indicating that they attempted to get a job. My brother tells the assholes to fuck off or to at least take the time to fill out an application if they are even serious about getting a job. Of course they aren't. They just want something to bring to their unemployment extension interview every 12 weeks that might confuse the bureaucrat that they did something besides sit on their lazy asses the whole 12 weeks and smoke pot and drink beer and watch tell-lies-vision.
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Old 12-18-2010, 03:07 PM   #30
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Louis Cypher: The new Republican dominated house of representatives takes office on January 3rd, 2011. The Senate will still be dominated by Democrats 53-47. If, in 2011, we experience REDUCED year over year federal spending and INCREASED federal revenue, will you admit that the tax policy worked and that the Republicans were right? And if the spending increases and revenue is reduced, I will admit that I was wrong and you were right. Do you accept this?

We will revisit in one year and retrospectively acknowledge who was right. I look forward to that day.
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