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Old 10-07-2005, 02:32 PM   #46
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Default Re: Does Geometry prove a God's Existence?

peace

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its funny how scientists are, stereotypically at least, against the idea of religion, when science really is nothing more than attempts to explain God's creation. i think the law of entropy concisely proves that there is some higher power...it states that if you put energy into something, then it will in general be better off than if you left it alone, in which case it would decay or deteriorate. much is the same with our situation...if there was no higher power, how could there be us? we are intelligent, coherent beings, and so it is impossible for us to arise from nothing...unless you consider the entity of nature to have some intellectual advantage over the human race. its like there couldnt be inventions if there were no inventors...
this is a long running weak argument for the existence of a god.

1st and foremost, entropy and the laws of thermodynamics do not accurately apply to us and our universe in the way you are simplyfying it!

basically what you are stating is that things "more time than not" , "tend" to always go from order to disorder when ever energy is put into something and it is left at rest.. THIS IS NOT TRUE AT ALL and is a major misconception people have about the laws of thermodynamics!

a simplified schoolyard example would be if i had a bottle of oil and water and shook it up (thus adding kinetic energy.. among other things).. the kinetic energy i just added causes everything o mix...,, but if i leave this bottle at rest (with a lack of energy) it with revert to a state of ORDERED EXISTENCE (oil sitting uniformly atop the water).. thus.. the bottle was a manifestation of choas going to order instead of order going to chaos

2ndly.. science doesnt try to xplain god's creation.. this is irrational first and foremost because this premise assumes the existence of a god to begin with! science is OBJECTIVE.. it simply explains what is out there and how our world works irrespective of how a person's belief system is... to be more accurate.. religion and groundless claims of a supernatural god. tend to make one contempt with ignorance....

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if there was no higher power, how could there be us? we are intelligent, coherent beings, and so it is impossible for us to arise from nothing...unless you consider the entity of nature to have some intellectual advantage over the human race. its like there couldnt be inventions if there were no inventors...
this seems to be the crux of the issue.. as i have always noticed.. all arguments against science (the majority) and all arguments for the existence of a god, rely on a question instead of presenting a valid claim. it is well known how humans arose on this planet and it does not require immediate belief in a supernatural higher power

this is also known as the weak "watchmaker" argument that was put to rest about 100 years ago. its irrational.

one cannot assume existence of a highr being simply do to perceived complexity of life. first of all, complexity is a subjective assessment. (complex compared to what?) is the homo sapien really that more complex than ecoli bacterium? no, not at all.

what makes that argument even more absurd and irrational is the fact that if complex intelligent things require a higher power to create them.. what created God?

"god" is allegedly a complex higher being, thus by ur argument and implied logic... god himslef (or herself depending on ur culture and religion) must of been created by an even more greater power......

in a nutshell.. what gives one the right to irrationally stop and the one particular concept of god they believe in... logically the chain of the "first cause" can stretch back to infiniti

so the argument of complexity arising froma higher power is irrational if its going to assume that that higher power is a god.
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Old 10-07-2005, 02:47 PM   #47
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Default Re: Does Geometry prove a God's Existence?

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Originally Posted by MantiZ
hmm it's a good argument.
i think proportions of human body are good argument too. i know that it's evolution, but still body of a healthy man has perfect geometrical proportions.
not true.. there is no perfect symmetry in man

our brains have evolved to "like" symmetry, but symmetry is not present in perfect form in humanity... our brains interpret symmetry as fertile and healthy...

there are solid evolutionary reasons for this.
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Old 10-07-2005, 02:59 PM   #48
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Default Re: Does Geometry prove a God's Existence?

yeah you most certainly have the upper hand on me in a scientific dialogue, but when i said that science is nothing more than attempts to explain God's existence, i wasnt trying to define the state of mind that scientists have when they delve into their field...
when i put forth the theory of entropy in relation to God, i was just trying to provide a simplified analogy...obviously there are aspects of this arguement that arent empirically able to be proved. i dont believe that you can apply physical laws that govern our world to spiritual matters, certainly not God...but at the same time, realize that this is not an arguement against science, on the contrary, i have the utmost appreciation and respect for it...its a shame that usually science and religion are pitted aginst each other continuously, when in reality it shouldnt be such a conflict.
i have a belief in religion, and systematic revelations that God sends to us through Prophets and Manifestations..most people see religion as a divisive illusion of no truth, but it is mainly people who have made theology so cloudy.
just because things can't be physically proven according to the laws that govern the world that we live in, doesnt necessarily mean that they aren't 'real'. i think this perception is one that is very constraining...one in which everything has to be measured for its existence to be proven.
much respect for the conversation...
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Old 10-07-2005, 03:14 PM   #49
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Default Re: Does Geometry prove a God's Existence?

peace and respect 2 u too

dont get me wrong.. i personally believe that religion was the most beneficial thing that ever happened to homo sapiens.. i dont confuse religion with "god".. to me they are 2 different things.

religion provides so many positive things (almost all positive)

my problem i swith the concept of an invisible supernatural higher power
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Old 10-07-2005, 03:19 PM   #50
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Default Re: Does Geometry prove a God's Existence?

Of course....even if someone knows geometry and some values given with universal properties....they know enough to apply it in day to day applications.

When someone knows these properties well enough...and good with manipulating numbers, they might be able to predict what a change in a universal property as we know them, could do to the universe.

However, it would be hard to explain why these values are "set" the way that they are and likely always have been since the big bang. That means it is easiest to think if someone (like a god) had some kind of control panel of the universe and set those values (as we know them from the number system) in.
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Old 10-07-2005, 04:03 PM   #51
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Default Re: Does Geometry prove a God's Existence?

This really belongs in KTL
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Old 10-07-2005, 05:10 PM   #52
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Default Re: Does Geometry prove a God's Existence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prolifical ENG
Of course....even if someone knows geometry and some values given with universal properties....they know enough to apply it in day to day applications.

When someone knows these properties well enough...and good with manipulating numbers, they might be able to predict what a change in a universal property as we know them, could do to the universe.

However, it would be hard to explain why these values are "set" the way that they are and likely always have been since the big bang. That means it is easiest to think if someone (like a god) had some kind of control panel of the universe and set those values (as we know them from the number system) in.
but these values are only "set" because we created the scoring system and logic that houses them
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Old 10-07-2005, 05:36 PM   #53
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Default Re: Does Geometry prove a God's Existence?

I agree with TeknicelStylez, this belongs in Know the Ledge
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Old 10-07-2005, 05:47 PM   #54
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Default Re: Does Geometry prove a God's Existence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by My First Timbs
but these values are only "set" because we created the scoring system and logic that houses them
I know, thats why I put "set" in quotations

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This really belongs in KTL
Yes, earlier on today I put a request in the KTL sticky. THis thread was created before the new KTL was made....Timbs resurected this thread.
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Old 10-08-2005, 01:37 AM   #55
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Default Re: Does Geometry prove a God's Existence?

yeah GOD existence is real. in fact it is foolish to think other wise
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Old 10-08-2005, 08:57 AM   #56
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Default Re: Does Geometry prove a God's Existence?

the point is that entropy or whatever. There has to be intelligence for things to come into order.
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Old 10-08-2005, 09:52 AM   #57
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Default Re: Does Geometry prove a God's Existence?

moved.
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Old 10-08-2005, 11:18 AM   #58
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Default Re: Does Geometry prove a God's Existence?

Many see this God in Many different ways

God isn't the same for all

there are many levels of this

many who say they believe in God has never read anything that has been written about God

and never really done any study on themselves as to why they believe in such

this is where the conflict starts

and it needs to be sort out before all can elevate
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Old 10-08-2005, 11:20 AM   #59
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Default Re: Does Geometry prove a God's Existence?

the word 'believe' suggests a measure of uncertainty

a person who says they 'believe' is admitting they are unsure

...and yet they are willing to argue anyway
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Old 10-08-2005, 11:30 AM   #60
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Default Re: Does Geometry prove a God's Existence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LHX
the word 'believe' suggests a measure of uncertainty

a person who says they 'believe' is admitting they are unsure

...and yet they are willing to argue anyway
this is true and we all do this in some way when dealing with other subjects

why does one argue about what one does not know ?



off subject -

what is the opposite to ctrl - z ?
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