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Old 05-03-2011, 08:08 AM   #16
Edgar Erebus
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Originally Posted by SL33 View Post
All nations have their own theories, but these are historical facts:




Yugoslavia was established in 1918 (officially 1921) as a result of serbian victory over Austro-Hungarian empire (Serbs were on Allies' side). Kingdoms of Serbia and Montenegro were independent countries long before WW1, while Croats, Slovenians and bosnian muslims lived in parts of Turkish and Austro-Hungarian empires.

So, Serbs had practically liberated entire Balkan peninsula excluding Greece, Romania and Bulgaria, and they made Kingdom of Yugoslavia under serbian king.
Is that so? Last time I checked, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and even Vojvodina declared independence while Serb armies haven't even liberated Belgrade. And it was the People's Council that ASKED Serbian king to become king of Yugoslavia, he didn't impose himself.

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Originally Posted by SL33 View Post
That country lasted until Hitler's campaign in 1941. Croats (catholics (religious factor is very important here)) and bosnian muslims sided with Hitler, while Serbs (orthodox christians) chose to fight on Allies's side once again.

Certain amount of bosnian muslims and Croats fought against Hitler too btw.
Certain amount? That certain amount was bigger than amount of those who fought for Hitler, but I digress.

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Originally Posted by SL33 View Post
During that war, Croats (with Pope's and Hitler's blessing) have annihilated about 700.000 Serbs and Jews in so called ''Independent State of Croatia''.
I admit it, and it's a huge shame on Croatia and we won't get rid of that burden for a long time. Although, I repeat, more Croats were on Allied side than on Axis.




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Originally Posted by SL33 View Post
Out of all fronts during the WW2, Balkan wars were the most terrible.
Poland and Russia were worse.



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Originally Posted by SL33 View Post
But, luckily Hitler lost, and Yugoslavia was reestablished in 1945, only without serbian king who fled to England in 1941. Tito was a leader of that state. Tito was a Croat, even though Serbs (who were majority in Tito's army) and Russians liberated the Balkans once again.
Oh COME THE FUCK ON. Russians had jack to do with Yugoslavia, apart from LIMITED help during the Belgrade Operation. Yugoslavia was only able to stand up to USSR in '48 because it managed to liberate itself. And mentioning only Serbs is simply an insult to all those Slovenes, Croats, Muslims, Montenegrins, Albanians and Macedonians who were fighting for Partisans.


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Originally Posted by SL33 View Post
Second Yugoslavia lasted until early '90's. Russia was/is an old Serbian ally, and that country was in serious crisis during the '90's, so Serbs in Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia and Montenegro stood alone, while bosnian muslims had Turkey, Saudi Arabia and practically entire Arab league (without Gadaffi who sided with Serbs). Croats were protected by USA, Germany (old ally), UK and France and their media, and ofc, Vatican.
I don't know if any of warring sides was getting anything other than media support. Ex-Yugoslavia has still a huge problem with organized crime that made itself a pillar of state during the war - as most of the weapons had to be smuggled through. Yes, in Croatia too, it had an arms embargo until '94, if I'm not mistaken.

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Originally Posted by SL33 View Post
There was/is hatred between these peoples, but the war was installed by the West and serbian defeat was inevitable because of their bad leadership and Russia's absence.
All that hatred was becoming forgotten. Tudjman, Milosevic and Izetbegovic sparked it up again, mainly for their personal gain. Greed is a motherfucker.

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Originally Posted by SL33 View Post
At the end of '90's, a new problem was caused by Albanians in southern serbian province of Kosovo (also known as Serbian Jerusalem). Serbs were stronger than Albanians, so NATO alliance bombed Serbia despite of Russian and Chinese 'veto' in UN.


Unfortunately, these wars are not over, they're paused.
Yeah, it seems that way to me too. But I won't be a fool like my father, grandfather and great-grandfather and get involved in all that bullshit.




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Originally Posted by SL33 View Post
Izetbegovic, Milosevic and Tudjman were just puppets.
Nah, they started it up on their own. They were getting used by "international community" though.
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Old 05-03-2011, 08:27 AM   #17
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These are some of the points made in Memorandum of Serbian academy of science and arts in 1986 (taken from wiki), which discusses problems of Serbian people in Yugoslavia.
Thanks for that, I'll use that to demonstrate that the whole point of memorandum was to instigate shit. My comments in green.


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Originally Posted by Shogah View Post
* Albanians are committing genocide against Serbs in Kosovo
That was a gross lie that did an incredible amount of damage. You can blame whoever you want, but Albanians became more numerous than Serbs in Kosovo simply because they were still going through demographic transition, while Serbs got all developed and shit and stopped making kids. Like everyone else in Europe.

* Slovenia and Croatia are taking control of the Serbian economy. Yugoslavia is taking industry out of Serbia
Another lie. Actually Serbs were annoying Croatians and Slovenes because they - as traditionally most industrially developed regions in Yugoslavia - were obliged to give a part of their income to help development of other regions - Serbia among others.

* There is need for constitutional changes of Yugoslavia because of its unfair mistreating and weakening of Serbia.
They had a point there, but Tito was purposefully weakening Serbia simply because he didn't want to repeat 1918-1941 period (during that time Serbs took advantage of proportional democracy and became overrepresented in many state institutions).

* There is great discrimination against Serbs that it is very similar to genocide
Bullshit.

* Serbia has given 2 500 000 victims for Yugoslavia (in World War I and II) and now is victim of this state
Exaggeration, both in number and in victimhood. I noticed Serbian politics has this penchant for playing victim.

* Between 1690 and 1912, 500 000 Serbs have escaped from Kosovo where Albanians are committing genocide
What genocide? And what's the point with what happened

* There is great discrimination of Serbs living in Kosovo and in Croatia
Simply not true, at least for Croatia (for example, 60% of Croatian police force was made of Serbs, so tell me how's that discrimination).

* Serbs in Croatia are now in danger like never before
In danger of what? The memorandum came in 1986, three years before Tudjman started spreading his hate speech around. No wonder this statement irritated Croatians.

* All writers of Serb nationality from Bosnia are Serbs and not Bosnian writers
If I hate something about Balkans, that's pulling someone's nationality out of ass. In Croatia, for example, they teach kids that Ivo Andrić is a Croatian writer (even though he clearly stated that he considers himself a Serb) because he went to Zagreb university. Why not simply let the writer say what he considers himself? Oh, yeah, inferiority complex. Pathetic.

* Serbs' question won't be solved before creation of full national and cultural unity of Serb people without importance where they live
Which is simply cosmetics for that old Chetnik bullshit "Serbia is where is one Serb grave".

* During the last 50 years Serbs have been two time victims of destruction, assimilation, changing of religion, cultural genocide, ideological indoctrination and saying that they do not have any importance.
Victimitis.

* If Yugoslavia falls, Serbia must look for its national interest
Which seemed to include expansion of its national borders and ethnic cleansing, apparently.

What's the saddest is that a couple of years later Tudjman and co. started talking the exact same shit, only regarding to Croatia. Basically they were both (Tudjman and Milosevic) playing the same game with opposing nationalities as Hitler was playing with Jews ("We were always heroic but have been betrayed, we are now slaves in our own country, we would rebuild ourselves nationally and culturally but we keep getting oppressed AND IT IS ALL JEWS' FAULT!!!!")
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Old 05-03-2011, 08:35 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Slim T View Post
Is that so? Last time I checked, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and even Vojvodina declared independence while Serb armies haven't even liberated Belgrade. And it was the People's Council that ASKED Serbian king to become king of Yugoslavia, he didn't impose himself.

Ofcourse they did, cause A-H empire was falling apart from the inside due to their defeat. People's council remark is true.



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Originally Posted by Slim T View Post
Certain amount? That certain amount was bigger than amount of those who fought for Hitler, but I digress.
How did they manage to organize IS of Croatia if they were a minority??





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Originally Posted by Slim T View Post
Poland and Russia were worse.
Yeah, but Balkan wars were a brother vs brother, neighbour vs neighbour situation, which is more tragic.





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Originally Posted by Slim T View Post
Oh COME THE FUCK ON. Russians had jack to do with Yugoslavia, apart from LIMITED help during the Belgrade Operation. Yugoslavia was only able to stand up to USSR in '48 because it managed to liberate itself. And mentioning only Serbs is simply an insult to all those Slovenes, Croats, Muslims, Montenegrins, Albanians and Macedonians who were fighting for Partisans.
% of Slovenians, Macedonians and Albanians in partisans is pathetic. Last time i checked montenegrins were Serbs. USSR would eat Yugoslavia, but actual invasion could never happend, cause Russians have great love for Serbs, and Stalin knew that.



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Originally Posted by Slim T View Post
I don't know if any of warring sides was getting anything other than media support. Ex-Yugoslavia has still a huge problem with organized crime that made itself a pillar of state during the war - as most of the weapons had to be smuggled through. Yes, in Croatia too, it had an arms embargo until '94, if I'm not mistaken.

[/QUOTE]

IDK about this though, but that's prolly true.



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Originally Posted by Shogah View Post

* Albanians are committing genocide against Serbs in Kosovo

* Slovenia and Croatia are taking control of the Serbian economy. Yugoslavia is taking industry out of Serbia

* There is need for constitutional changes of Yugoslavia because of its unfair mistreating and weakening of Serbia.

* There is great discrimination against Serbs that it is very similar to genocide

* Serbia has given 2 500 000 victims for Yugoslavia (in World War I and II) and now is victim of this state

* Between 1690 and 1912, 500 000 Serbs have escaped from Kosovo where Albanians are committing genocide

* There is great discrimination of Serbs living in Kosovo and in Croatia

* Serbs in Croatia are now in danger like never before

* All writers of Serb nationality from Bosnia are Serbs and not Bosnian writers

* Serbs' question won't be solved before creation of full national and cultural unity of Serb people without importance where they live

* During the last 50 years Serbs have been two time victims of destruction, assimilation, changing of religion, cultural genocide, ideological indoctrination and saying that they do not have any importance.

* If Yugoslavia falls, Serbia must look for its national interest





Croats, Muslims and Slovenians had a right for self determination, but that right was denied to Serbs.
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Old 05-04-2011, 09:19 AM   #19
Edgar Erebus
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Ofcourse they did, cause A-H empire was falling apart from the inside due to their defeat. People's council remark is true.
From the inside, that's the point. The Yugoslav idea originated in Austria-Hungary, Serbian government actually didn't want to have anything with any Yugoslavia until 1917. And at the moment when A-H started breaking apart it was still military undefeated, although completely rotten from the inside.

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How did they manage to organize IS of Croatia if they were a minority??
With huge military support by Germany and, even more, Italy? Don't be mistaken and think ISC was ever anything other than a pathetic Nazi puppet, created by 200-odd fools who spent most of the 1930's confined in Italy and with help of, sadly, too many village idiots who found an opportunity to wear black uniform and play soldiers. Remove Germans and Italians and it would crumble within weeks.


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Originally Posted by SL33 View Post
% of Slovenians, Macedonians and Albanians in partisans is pathetic. Last time i checked montenegrins were Serbs. USSR would eat Yugoslavia, but actual invasion could never happend, cause Russians have great love for Serbs, and Stalin knew that.
Percentage of Slovenians, Macedonians and Albanians in Yugoslavian population was pathetic too (together they made about 15% of total, if I remember correctly). Slovenians were actually overrepresented in Partisan forces (they had good reason to be, Hitler was planning their physical destruction). Ljubljana was so dangerous for occupying forces it had to be sealed with barbed wire.

About Tito-Stalin split, it wasn't so much about love than about calculation. Stalin was expecting that they would be helped by a popular anti-Tito uprising in Yugoslavia. First, Tito was smart enough to quickly (and brutally) wipe out all possible dissenting elements and to rally loyalists around him, therefore thwarting Stalin's hope for uprising. Second, the moment Yugoslavia broke with Stalin it became an American ally, so intervention in Yugoslavia would be impossible without starting the World War III (USSR still didn't have nukes back then).

In reality, after Soviets ended their engagement in Korea Stalin did start planning an invasion of Yugoslavia, but his death prevented it from actually happening.


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Croats, Muslims and Slovenians had a right for self determination, but that right was denied to Serbs.
Nobody was forcing Serbia to stay within Yugoslavia.

There is no way that Croatia, once it declared independence, could give up it's Serb-populated areas, as it would be geographically unsustainable in that case (not to even mention that Knin used to be capital of Croatia in middle ages and that it has the same "emotional value" for Croats as Kosovo has for Serbs - that's why I oppose Kosovo independence). What Tudjman could and should have done is to grant Serbs the constituent nation status and maybe even limited autonomy in areas where they were majority.

About Bosnia, I still do think that its breakup would do more harm than good.
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Last edited by Edgar Erebus; 05-04-2011 at 09:26 AM.
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Old 05-08-2011, 05:20 AM   #20
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Bronze, this is an interesting documentary on fall of Yugoslavia and influence of Western forces on the war. It is not published yet, but try finding it on the net sooner or later. It contains some previously unseen material and it focuses (as i can see from the trailer) on USA intervention in that war.

Last edited by Shogah; 05-08-2011 at 05:23 AM.
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