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Old 04-19-2012, 01:03 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Robert View Post

No I didn't. My contention is that an observant follower of one of these religions adheres to a doctrine due to their faith and diminishes their free will as a result.
Diminishes free will in what way? No Murder, no adultery, no pork, etc...? Things like that?


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Originally Posted by Robert View Post

This is a flawed analogy because your boss at work is not an omnipotent God with a doctrine. Doctrine takes away a person's free will to a significant degree.
May not be a perfect analogy, but what is?

You are speaking without getting into specifics about doctrine and free will. Could you give an example? Maybe if you give an example I may understand your argument.

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Originally Posted by Robert View Post

Much suffering in the world is out of human control.
Again, could you give some examples?

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Originally Posted by Robert View Post

...why would a caring, loving God allow some humans to unjustly inflict suffering on other humans when he is capable of intervening?

This goes back to the part of scripture where is says "And , when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." (2:30) That successive authority is man.

Btw, have you read scripture - Quran in particular from cover to cover? What are you're motivations for asking some of these questions anyway?


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Originally Posted by Robert View Post

The answer, to give us "free choice" strikes me as being a pretty average answer.
Did you get the impression that I'm saying we suffer so we could have free choice? - cuz that's not what I said.


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Originally Posted by Robert View Post

Surely, a moral God would not allow...
. Where are you getting this from. If you wanna make a criticism, could you please reference a quote from the Quran otherwise, it looks like you are making an assumption.

Maybe you should do some reading on this subject, in particular the Quran. How about you read the whole thing - cover to cover, then if you have questions, we could talk about it.

Btw, are those arguments your own or did somebody else use them and you decided to use them here?
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Old 04-19-2012, 03:44 AM   #107
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Sorry I'm not addressing the Qur'an specifically but to be honest it's irrelevant what particular religion I'm addressing. The crucial issue is this: Why does God allow suffering?

This is a general philosophical problem with the God concept. You ask me, if I'd taken these arguments from somewhere else as if you've never seen them before. This question is not a new one by any stretch of the imagination.

Reference to scripture is 100% irrelevant.

Let me break it down for you:

If God was omnipotent he could interfere in human life on our planet.

Now you contend that the scriptures indicate God deferred authority to human beings, in effect making us the masters of our own destinies.

Once again, this is irrelevant to the original question. God can intervene if he chooses, regardless of what the scriptures say, if he is truly omnipotent.

Yet, as we can see, he chooses not to.

My question to you is why does he choose not to. "The scriptures say so" is not a reasonable answer at all.

Let me put it this way, if you were all powerful and could prevent horrible suffering on Earth would you choose not to intervene? What would be your reasons for not intervening?

I think you would have to concede that a God who chooses not to intervene would not be considered morally good by the standards we judge ourselves by.
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Old 04-19-2012, 04:12 AM   #108
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Now to address the other parts of your post -

"We suffer because we have choices (free will). When one human has a choice, and another human opposes that choice, there is suffering. Notice the choice is with us (humans) and the opposition is with other humans"

This is untrue. Are you telling me that suffering that is caused by natural disasters, or in general, the natural world is man made (please don't bring up climate change because you'd be missing the point). What about deformed children? Genetic abnormalities that cause horrible terminal illnesses? How exactly does your simplistic view of suffering apply to these things?


My motivation for asking these questions is simply because they are there to be asked, I find it interesting, and I think it is important to think about these things.


How does subscribing to a doctrine reduce your free will? Fundamentalism. If you believe that a certain text is the word of God and you believe this God is righteous and omnipotent then you will subscribe to the moral absolutes in that text. That is how your free will is reduced. You are now in possession of the 'truth' so there is no longer a need to think critically about whether the beliefs you uphold are wrong or right. I suppose you could mount and argument to say something like "well religion has changed over the centuries and these texts are not to be taken literally". The fact is, that many people do take them literally and religion, for the most part, has been dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century. Change has been forced upon it by a progressive society and not the other way around.


By the way, nice try with the whole "you need to read the Qur'an from cover to cover" stuff. These are broader questions about the nature of doctrine and the omnipotent God concept.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:05 PM   #109
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Sorry I'm not addressing the Qur'an specifically but to be honest it's irrelevant what particular religion I'm addressing. The crucial issue is this: Why does God allow suffering?

I do not know why God does what God does unless God states why. I cannot answer for God.

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Are you telling me that suffering that is caused by natural disasters, or in general, the natural world is man made.
Could you be specific with an example of a 'natural disaster'? No, man does not cause it. This is why you should be specific because I thought you were referring to something else when you mentioned suffering.

Deformed children? Again this is vague. Deformed in what way? Sometimes humans do things that should not be done and end up with deformed children, so again could you be specific. Genetic abnormalities? I really am not qualified to get deep into these subjects as I am not a biologist. My knowledge is limited.

My 'simplistic view of suffering'? Condescending?


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Originally Posted by Robert View Post
How does subscribing to a doctrine reduce your free will? Fundamentalism. If you believe that a certain text is the word of God and you believe this God is righteous and omnipotent then you will subscribe to the moral absolutes in that text. That is how your free will is reduced. You are now in possession of the 'truth' so there is no longer a need to think critically about whether the beliefs you uphold are wrong or right.
You are so wrong about this. This is why I told you to read the Quran.

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17:36. And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.
There are other verses where we are required to ascertain truth and verses that encourage inquisitiveness.

When you approach this very broadly as you have and speak in general terms, it is no wonder you don't know what you are talking about. You do not come off as genuinely wanting to know answers.

Clearly, approaching this subject as you have from a purely rational approach using many concepts is not beneficial to your understanding (assuming this is what you are trying to achieve). Again, you have to be specific, for all scriptures are not the same and you should try to answer questions related to it.
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I personally find FMJ's approach to message boarding hilarious, considering we've got a lot of people here who often overcompensate for being heterosexual.

The one's who
lose it over his soft, gay care-free posts are suspect.
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Ahh, the numerical mythology of the homosexual african-canadian wu-tang fan is truly strange and wondrous.

What a unique people.





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Old 04-20-2012, 12:01 AM   #110
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I think you're missing the point.

I am not talking about you. I am not talking about your specific beliefs and I am not talking about the interpretation of religious texts.

I am not talking about the Qur'an either. I am talking about two things: how subscribing to doctrine can reduce your free will and the issues surrounding a God that allows suffering to occur.


Of course I have to talk in general terms. I'm not saying that these generalizations apply uniformly across the entire following of a religion and I'm not talking specifically about the Qur'an. I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up to be honest.


I'm talking about the nature of fundamentalism and doctrine. You don't have to look too far in our world to see it in practice (not just within religion). These people exist within Islam as with any other religion.

Now I've seen you make the argument before that these Muslims are unobservant, are selectively following certain parts of various texts, and ultimately, are not true Muslims. Now I'm not saying that isn't a reasonable argument to make because it clearly is. What I am saying is those Muslims are a clear example of what I'm talking about irregardless of whether they are wrong or right.


Do you get it now? I'm not saying that the Qur'an is an evil text and that 'true' Muslims are fundamentalists. I'm making a general comment about doctrine and fundamentalism, that it reduces the free will of the individual that chooses that path in the first place.


I think you're getting very defensive about your religion which is understandable but I think it has been to your detriment in this discussion because you've missed the meaning of my posts.


"You are so wrong about this. This is why I told you to read the Qur'an"

I hope I have now cleared this comment up. By the way, if you can provide me with a good online version of the Qur'an I would happily read it. I am interested in that stuff.


"My 'simplistic view of suffering'? Condescending?"

Apologies for that. I got a little carried away because it seemed to me that your idea of suffering (choice and opposition to it) was limiting.

Do I really have to provide examples of natural disasters and congenital conditions that are essentially out of our control and have little to do with our free will? I'm sure you can use your imagination.


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Originally Posted by FMJ View Post
I do not know why God does what God does unless God states why. I cannot answer for God.

That is a cop out. You can think about the question and its implications without having to answer for God or know exactly why he does things. Considering that this has been my main question I thought you'd pay it a little more attention.
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Old 04-20-2012, 09:19 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Robert View Post
My contention is that an observant follower of one of these religions adheres to a doctrine due to their faith and diminishes their free will as a result.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert View Post
I'm talking about the nature of fundamentalism and doctrine. You don't have to look too far in our world to see it in practice (not just within religion). These people exist within Islam as with any other religion.
It really depends on what the doctrine is. If the doctrine states that it's followers should not strive for things worth striving for, or strive for things that are destructive, maybe that could be a diminishing of 'free will'.


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Originally Posted by Robert View Post
Now I've seen you make the argument before that these Muslims are unobservant, are selectively following certain parts of various texts, and ultimately, are not true Muslims. Now I'm not saying that isn't a reasonable argument to make because it clearly is. What I am saying is those Muslims are a clear example of what I'm talking about irregardless of whether they are wrong or right.
Ok.

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Originally Posted by Robert View Post
I hope I have now cleared this comment up. By the way, if you can provide me with a good online version of the Qur'an I would happily read it. I am interested in that stuff.
There are many online versions. A problem with many translations, is that some words have been translated a certain way to promote 'traditional Islaam'... You have to work hard to understand the true meaning of those words.



Anyway, here is one I use:

http://corpus.quran.com/




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Originally Posted by Robert View Post
You can think about the question and its implications without having to answer for God or know exactly why he does things. Considering that this has been my main question I thought you'd pay it a little more attention.



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(6:165) And it is He who has made you successors upon the earth and has raised some of you above others in degrees that He may try you through what He has given you. Indeed, your Lord is swift in penalty; but indeed, He is Forgiving and Merciful.
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(67:2)...who created death and life to test you which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving -

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(76:2Indeed, We created man from a sperm-drop mixture that We may try him; and We made him hearing and seeing.

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(2:155) And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient,...
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Originally Posted by Sideshow Bob View Post
I personally find FMJ's approach to message boarding hilarious, considering we've got a lot of people here who often overcompensate for being heterosexual.

The one's who
lose it over his soft, gay care-free posts are suspect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky Blue Danny Kid View Post
Ahh, the numerical mythology of the homosexual african-canadian wu-tang fan is truly strange and wondrous.

What a unique people.





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Believe it or not, lobster and crabs are crustaceans and are a part of the arthropod family, which include caterpillars, cockroaches, and spiders!
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Old 08-08-2012, 06:24 AM   #112
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Is control the basis for evil? Interesting, as many of the negative traits amongst people maybe even you or me, come out of our desire to control our environment.. Theres even a term for people like this.. "control freaks".

I see control as a way of 'managing' the fear of not knowing the outcome, essentially stemming from fear. If its true at the illuminati level, it also appears to be true at the individual level. Does that make us all part of the illuminati?
i reckon so
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Old 08-10-2012, 02:08 PM   #113
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excellent thread. the thing is honestly the rich vs the poor. the rich are the biggest control freaks for fear of losing their wealth - women - house - cars - boats....whatver they cherish...or just losing control. In the process they lost control of their values.

we're all guilty of this in one way or another.

for example - somebody that you chillin with wants you to watch a movie and it doesnt interest you - you want to watch another movie - but you feel so bitter to not allow that person have their experience they want to share. A-alikes even do that. dont matter who what you think you have in common - nobody is the same - nothing is identical.
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Old 08-11-2012, 08:28 PM   #114
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First off, I presume many of you are familiar with the concept of cognitive dissonance, whereby an individual tries to reduce the discomfort caused by holding two conflicting ideas in one's head at the same time.

I raise this because I am understand that many of you believe The Illuminati is an active organistion (if you can call it that) that is controlling world affairs to the detriment of the majority.

You talk about things like mind control and the tendency of people to believe what they're told without question.

It strikes me as strange then that many of you also believe in an Omnipotent God that some scriptures tell us, is capable of convicting you of thought crime.

On one hand, some rebel against the powers that be, that are controlling our planet yet you also submit to tyranical, celestial regimes that control you from above.

How do you justify or resolve this problem? What are the differences between the two concepts?

Why do you respect a celestial dictactor yet revile at the thought of humans doing the same thing?

Just to clarify, I am largely talking about those that subscribe to organized religion and the belief in a Judeo-Christian God or something similar.
Your question is lacking sense for one main reason, you believe that the Higher Power that is believed in by so many people is, "tyrannical, celestial and controlling." All chosen terms prove you know nothing about any of these belief systems.

Tyrannical: Tyrants tend to give their subjects little, if any opportunity for growth, learning or happiness. Any and all people who practice any Judeo-Christian, or Abrahamic religion, devoutly following the universal principles laid out in each, are living examples of growth, learning and happiness. Tolerance even. You only use the term "Tyrant" because you lack the discipline neccessary to follow the rules laid down in these doctrines. I suppose a parent who is trying to raise a morally upright child by practicing discipline in the home is also a tyrant in your opinion? They would have to be, because the principle is the same. The rules are set forth for the upliftment of man. This you could never understand because you rely on your own understanding of things and refuse good council from anyone. Let's not forget about Free Will. Show me one tyrant that has ever allowed their subjects to make their own decisions. But that's not the case is it. The case is the punishments that are mentioned for deliberately conterproductive activities. Either to oneself or others. Again, I imagine you would damn the parent who scolded the child for stealing something that didn't belong to them?


Celestial. Adjective. 1. Relating to the sky or outer space. 2. Heavenly.
The concept of God, in the most comprehensible form, is a being beyond all comprehension. Unable to be contained by any realm of full understanding, least of all the tiny mind of a human being who is usually a slave to his or her ego in most endeavors. Above and beyond His creation. Think about that. Most of you are still of the thought process that God resides in the Heavens because you can't grasp the concept of a being who needs no shelter. You unconsciously relate the limitations of man to...well...everything, because you still overestimate your importance. You're actually relating God to His creation. While He may be within it, just as you may say RZA's essence is in his beats, especially his earlier work, would you say that RZA is a musical being in himself? Made of kicks, snares and piano loops? Or is he constructed of something infinitely more complex than the "Triumph" instrumental??

Controlling. Do gun laws stop people from killing people?? Does a red light stop people from jay-walking? Does missing one prayer condemn you to The Scorching Wind? There is no compulsion in religion. As is made clear by all of the people of every doctrine who deliberately do dirt to themselves and their fellow man and try to back it up with their doctrine. Here's the catch though, everyone is always given enough rope to hang themselves with. The problem with most is that everyone wants to do the crime, no one wants to face the punishment, so much so that they will convince themselves and others that no punishment exists. Then, ironically, we have enough nerve to say, when the case isn't against us, "What goes around comes around." "Action, reaction." "Cause, effect." That's both hilarious and MAD hypocritical. But then, so are most people in the world today. The Laws of Nature, only apply when we want them to. When it suites us. But it's like Vinnie Paz said, "Laws of Nature are Mathematical thoughts of God."

The difference between these doctrines and The Illuminati??
Have you read any kind of scripture at all? From ANY part of the world? We'll even go outside the Judeo-Christian/Abrahamic box. Go to any of them and see what similitudes are set forth as far as the Earth and what a beautiful, bountiful, harmonius place it is. See how harmony is promoted between man and his surroundings. See the condemnation of unjust practices to fellow man and creature. To make it plain, read a book. Read a few of them.

Then study chem-trails, The CFR, The Bilderberg Group, The Rockefellers, etc. See what the people get in return when they abide by the rules set forth by THESE groups. What happens when THESE laws are set forth. What "freedoms" and "choices" are given to the people.

If that's too much homework for you, we'll make it simpler, order a double cheeseburger, then later on in the day, have a full-course meal. If that doesn't work, spend half an hour listening to 2 Chainz and then another half hour listening to Bronze Nazareth. Sooner or later, you may get the picture. Maybe.

The saddest thing about this whole thing is the fact that you have no idea how all-encompassing this threat truly is. You haven't the slightest clue. If you did, your mind wouldn't be where it is because in the grand scheme of things, this issue is petty. But then, we can only bring forth who we are within.
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Old 08-13-2012, 02:17 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert View Post
First off, I presume many of you are familiar with the concept of cognitive dissonance, whereby an individual tries to reduce the discomfort caused by holding two conflicting ideas in one's head at the same time.

I raise this because I am understand that many of you believe The Illuminati is an active organistion (if you can call it that) that is controlling world affairs to the detriment of the majority.

You talk about things like mind control and the tendency of people to believe what they're told without question.

It strikes me as strange then that many of you also believe in an Omnipotent God that some scriptures tell us, is capable of convicting you of thought crime.

On one hand, some rebel against the powers that be, that are controlling our planet yet you also submit to tyranical, celestial regimes that control you from above.

How do you justify or resolve this problem? What are the differences between the two concepts?

Why do you respect a celestial dictactor yet revile at the thought of humans doing the same thing?

Just to clarify, I am largely talking about those that subscribe to organized religion and the belief in a Judeo-Christian God or something similar.

both of these worlds are here - most chose the easiest one to enter

and most would say that the world is a fucked up place

the easiest to enter leads you to a painful and difficult exit

and death is popular


the other one...... you play after you work
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Old 08-13-2012, 03:24 PM   #116
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^your right
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