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Old 09-17-2012, 03:23 PM   #61
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your middle statements are completely untrue. nothing in the bible says you must inflict pain on yourself. those monks made up their own religion apart from the truth of God's word.

before a holy and sinless God we ARE unworthy and sinners. before a holy and sinless God we are worthy of nothing but death. but because God loved us and valued a relationship with us so highly sent his son as a sacrifice for the sins of man in order to restore the relationship God had with man before the sin of adam.

on top of all this your middle statements have absolutely nothing to do with "love your enemy". you've apparently moved on to something else.

as for your question, Jesus sacrificed himself on the cross because this was the will of the Father and he wasnt going to disobey his Father because thats what adam did and man was cursed and separated from God because of it.
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Old 09-17-2012, 03:45 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by THE W View Post
your middle statements are completely untrue. nothing in the bible says you must inflict pain on yourself. those monks made up their own religion apart from the truth of God's word.

before a holy and sinless God we ARE unworthy and sinners. before a holy and sinless God we are worthy of nothing but death. but because God loved us and valued a relationship with us so highly sent his son as a sacrifice for the sins of man in order to restore the relationship God had with man before the sin of adam.

on top of all this your middle statements have absolutely nothing to do with "love your enemy". you've apparently moved on to something else.

as for your question, Jesus sacrificed himself on the cross because this was the will of the Father and he wasnt going to disobey his Father because thats what adam did and man was cursed and separated from God because of it.
never said the bible said that. but the priests did that cuz it was the spirit of christianity of that time. it was that deep feeling of feeling such contempt 4 urself that u have to express it through self harm.

just cuz my morals r different from gods doesnt mean nothing. in fact i find gods morals to be wrong (which is an opinion). he kills every 1st son of Egypt not cuz of what they did but cuz of their parents. i find that sick and disgusting. all moral codes are opinions and subjective and gods isnt somehow objectiveor true or absolute. so no were not unworthy unless we tell ourselves we are. and that is having low self esteem. to think so low of urself that u drop ur own personal morals in favour of someone elses whether its a God or god or supernatural being or other mans isnt healthy. its related to self loathing. the idea that ur such a terrible person that u have to lose/kill/sacrifice/4get urself in order to transfer to that other person. and where will that get us. every1 being the same person with the same morals. we lose our individuality.

and how does God sacrificing Jesus help destroy our sins. how does that actually help.

i do believe weve moved on from 'love ur enemy' onto a different subject. but it was related cuz it was having so low self esteem that u would turn ur cheek to let ur own enemy hit you across the cheek. in other words to let the enemy have control of ur body.

but why did God want Jesus to be sacrificed on the cross. God is all powerful so he could get rid of sin with a click of his finger but he placed his son on a cross. there must have obviously been some desire for him to put his son on a cross instead of finding an alternative method.
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Old 09-17-2012, 07:04 PM   #63
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1. good, so since we understand the word of God never ordained such actions than we must conclude that christianity had nothing to do with those actions.

2. its like the pot complaining to the potter that he uses it for trash instead of a flower pot. you or my opinion of God's sovereign choice couldnt be more irrelevent. God the creater can do as he pleases with what he has created. keep in mind that he could've just destroyed us, wiped every one of us out but he chose to seek after us in order to restore the relationship he had at first. he loved us even when we turned our backs on him and said he doesnt exist. if you cant except God's authority and sovereignty over his own creation thats a "you" problem.

3. God dying on the cross for our sins allowed us to have full access to God through christ. we all now have access to the holy of holies that only certain priests had during the old covanent. the relationship that God had with adam before the fall has now been restored as all sin was put on christ on the cross. believers in christ can now have intimate relationship with God the Father.

does it eliminate man desire to sin? no. people still choose sin anyway, but some do not and follow christ. for those who do not they now have full access to God through christ.

4. we would have to look at why God chose to institute a covenant where the blood of certain animals was used on the holy alter for atonement for sin.

in secular society if you commit a crime there is punishment for it. there are consequences for wrong actions. you go to jail, you get grounded, you lose certain privilages, you pay fines. you dont just get off scott free like nothing happened. you must pay your debt to society.

in the same way man had sinned before God and had to pay their debt to God so God in establishing a covenant with the israelites coming out of egypt he ordained blood sacrifices for sin atonement. this is the way GoD decreed that man would pay their debt to him for their sins.

God grew tired of this as he saw that man's hearts were corrupt. they followed all the rules and regulations but their hearts were far from God.

what these people were trying to wrongfully establish was what some like to call "fire insurance". they dont give a crap about God in reality but they'll follow the rules so theyi can be on God's good side. God detested this condition of their hearts and expressed as much in isaiah chapter 1.

so jesus comes into the picture. now understand that the new covenant in christ doesnt erase the old covenant of moses(matthew 5:17-20), it just makes it obsolete. its still there, but we dont have to live by it because of the new covanent of grace.

Acts 13:38-39; hebrews 9:11-28; hebrews 10:1-18

God ordained that Jesus would be sacrificed on the cross keeping with the law of moses which required blood sacrifices for the atonement of sins. Jesuss sacrifice was the complete and final atonement for all of man's sin giving us the access to God that adam had in the garden of eden before the fall of man.

this is why Jesus was sacrificed.
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Old 10-01-2012, 02:59 PM   #64
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1. good, so since we understand the word of God never ordained such actions than we must conclude that christianity had nothing to do with those actions.

2. its like the pot complaining to the potter that he uses it for trash instead of a flower pot. you or my opinion of God's sovereign choice couldnt be more irrelevent. God the creater can do as he pleases with what he has created. keep in mind that he could've just destroyed us, wiped every one of us out but he chose to seek after us in order to restore the relationship he had at first. he loved us even when we turned our backs on him and said he doesnt exist. if you cant except God's authority and sovereignty over his own creation thats a "you" problem.

3. God dying on the cross for our sins allowed us to have full access to God through christ. we all now have access to the holy of holies that only certain priests had during the old covanent. the relationship that God had with adam before the fall has now been restored as all sin was put on christ on the cross. believers in christ can now have intimate relationship with God the Father.

does it eliminate man desire to sin? no. people still choose sin anyway, but some do not and follow christ. for those who do not they now have full access to God through christ.

4. we would have to look at why God chose to institute a covenant where the blood of certain animals was used on the holy alter for atonement for sin.

in secular society if you commit a crime there is punishment for it. there are consequences for wrong actions. you go to jail, you get grounded, you lose certain privilages, you pay fines. you dont just get off scott free like nothing happened. you must pay your debt to society.

in the same way man had sinned before God and had to pay their debt to God so God in establishing a covenant with the israelites coming out of egypt he ordained blood sacrifices for sin atonement. this is the way GoD decreed that man would pay their debt to him for their sins.

God grew tired of this as he saw that man's hearts were corrupt. they followed all the rules and regulations but their hearts were far from God.

what these people were trying to wrongfully establish was what some like to call "fire insurance". they dont give a crap about God in reality but they'll follow the rules so theyi can be on God's good side. God detested this condition of their hearts and expressed as much in isaiah chapter 1.

so jesus comes into the picture. now understand that the new covenant in christ doesnt erase the old covenant of moses(matthew 5:17-20), it just makes it obsolete. its still there, but we dont have to live by it because of the new covanent of grace.

Acts 13:38-39; hebrews 9:11-28; hebrews 10:1-18

God ordained that Jesus would be sacrificed on the cross keeping with the law of moses which required blood sacrifices for the atonement of sins. Jesuss sacrifice was the complete and final atonement for all of man's sin giving us the access to God that adam had in the garden of eden before the fall of man.

this is why Jesus was sacrificed.

1 the word of god tells us that were slaves to god and that were pathetic people who are so bad we must forget all our being and our consciousness and become like god.

this is the same nature in which people whip themselves cuz of self loathing. u can see how self harm came about.

2 no its like a pot not living its full poential just cuz its creator told him not to. i was created from my mm and dad but they cant do anything they want with me. its wrong. plus ur pot allegory is not a good example cuz pots dont have consciousness. people do. if parents eat their babies is that ok. u can see where the logic breaks down. parents dont have full control of their children cuz if they did then their children will not advance. only excessively vain parents who always wanna b praised claim to have full control of their creations. but then again god is excessively vain.

3 theres a gap in ur logic i'll show it in the penultimate sentence 'no. people still choose sin anyway, but some do not and follow christ.' i know christains who have lied and im guessing that lying is sinning so are they not sinning while following christ.

4 'in secular society if you commit a crime there is punishment for it.' true but what kinda perverse society punishs a crime by letting the criminal go off free and instead sacrifices the most righteous man. punishing the innocent for the guilty is a very perverse state of justice.

so then the ominpotent god who can destroy sin at the click of a finger doesnt do that but instead does what u say

'God ordained that Jesus would be sacrificed on the cross keeping with the law of moses which required blood sacrifices for the atonement of sins.'

but why does god do this instead of just clicking his fingers. or is it cuz the irony of maintaining a rule of the obselete old convenant to create the new convenant or some parallel structure that he finds deeply satisfying. in short a piece of art or literary device.

this isnt unusual 4 an excessively vain god always seeking praise that hed murder his own 100% sinless son just for his piece of art. does this not remind u a bit of John Doe in 'se7en'.

if u try and say that killing jesus was the only way to get rid of sin then youd be rejecting gods omnipotence.

also this metaphor might go deeper than u think.

'Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” ' John 3:14

'The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live."' Numbers 21:8
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if ur nice to me robbie ill show u how to use a slide rule.
Quote:
Originally Posted by knewcheeze View Post
at least you fuckin an animal you are giving it pleasure instead of giving it pain.....better karma for you......
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJones View Post
No i'm not a idiot. If i was a idiot, i'd be a criminal. There's nothing wrong with admitting you're afraid of something.
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Old 10-02-2012, 06:26 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by THE W View Post
before a holy and sinless God we ARE unworthy and sinners. before a holy and sinless God we are worthy of nothing but death. but because God loved us and valued a relationship with us so highly sent his son as a sacrifice for the sins of man in order to restore the relationship God had with man before the sin of adam.
i hear u g but thats just one way of putting it..some are deterred by such wording

the message can be delivered with in a much plainer way imo altho if we meet at the same point we'll all have the same undastandin
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