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Old 11-19-2012, 11:09 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Face of the Golden Falcon View Post
Peace Rakim

No offence but what you believe has no bearing on whether or not the universe, at the density level that our consciousness experiences it, is ordered. Elements are ordered in a particular way and according to particular laws so that we experience flower as a flower, a rock as a rock etc. Whether you believe in gravity or not if you jump of a cliff you fall to your death. This is the same for everyone. It's not a matter of belief.

Your question "why does there have to be a natural order" I'm not sure how to answer. Are you genuinely asking why there is natural order or is more like when a kid asks why there has to be so many rules?
but the same rules dont apply to all parts of the universe. if you look at the sub atomic level the rules are different.

so the whole universe isnt governed by the same principles. look at complementarity in physics.

now way are the rules different at smaller levels than larger levels. or is it just that we obey the rules at larger levels more easily.

how can there be a complete natural order when it isnt universal i.e. it doesnt work at all levels.
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:21 PM   #17
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but the same rules dont apply to all parts of the universe. if you look at the sub atomic level the rules are different.

so the whole universe isnt governed by the same principles. look at complementarity in physics.

now way are the rules different at smaller levels than larger levels. or is it just that we obey the rules at larger levels more easily.

how can there be a complete natural order when it isnt universal i.e. it doesnt work at all levels.
this is why I wrote:

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at the density level that our consciousness experiences it
You are right. On the sub-atomic level the same laws don't apply. We don't experience reality on a day-to-day basis at the sub-atomic level though. We're currently tuned in to the channel you are looking at everytime you step out your door. That's the beauty of this infinite classroom we find ourselves in. It's kinda like a video game, a simulation like Soul said in another post, there are particular laws that need to be harmonized with on this level and until you do you're not going to advance to the next level.

There is no point trying to play a video game and complaining that what's on the screen is really just a whole bunch of 0's and 1's. Seeing it that way does not help you play the game. That's not to say it isn't important to understand that aspect of it because doing so will allow you to see the truth behind the video game ie, that your avatar is not really you but a vehicle for you to come into the game by. To remind you that whilst you are in the world you are not of the world. While you are in the world though not aligning yourself with the flow of it will only lead to suffering.

And concerning a complete natural order, it does work at all levels. Just because different levels follow different laws doesn't mean they don't all synthesize into a complete picture.
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:40 AM   #18
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this is why I wrote:



You are right. On the sub-atomic level the same laws don't apply. We don't experience reality on a day-to-day basis at the sub-atomic level though. We're currently tuned in to the channel you are looking at everytime you step out your door. That's the beauty of this infinite classroom we find ourselves in. It's kinda like a video game, a simulation like Soul said in another post, there are particular laws that need to be harmonized with on this level and until you do you're not going to advance to the next level.

There is no point trying to play a video game and complaining that what's on the screen is really just a whole bunch of 0's and 1's. Seeing it that way does not help you play the game. That's not to say it isn't important to understand that aspect of it because doing so will allow you to see the truth behind the video game ie, that your avatar is not really you but a vehicle for you to come into the game by. To remind you that whilst you are in the world you are not of the world. While you are in the world though not aligning yourself with the flow of it will only lead to suffering.

And concerning a complete natural order, it does work at all levels. Just because different levels follow different laws doesn't mean they don't all synthesize into a complete picture.
yes i agree with this but i think i react to it differently than you. and this is important. it shows the difference between the two greatest philosophers ive ever read.

schopenhauer believed that the world was will and idea(a simulation) and that with complete willpower we could do anything we want. however he didnt like will because he thought willing and craving led to suffering because we werent alligned. he believed in cessation of the will. that happiness came when we werent struggling against other forces when we were completely at rest. or as yo put it alligned.

nietzsche on the other hand thought lifes purpose was will to power. that struggling and not being alligned was good. that happiness comes from every struggle and challenge we overcome. nietzsche thought that self-overcoming was the way forward. he beliebed in the destruction and creation of values. he created his concept of the ubermensch. someone who goes beyond all good and evil and transcends all values in order to create his own. he wouldve wanted someone to completely to go out of phase with the simulation. to overcome the rules of the simlation and to destroy it basicly and then create his own values. to gain complete power.

i guess t depends on the person on which direction he wants to go.
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Old 11-22-2012, 02:49 AM   #19
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yes i agree with this but i think i react to it differently than you. and this is important. it shows the difference between the two greatest philosophers ive ever read.

schopenhauer believed that the world was will and idea(a simulation) and that with complete willpower we could do anything we want. however he didnt like will because he thought willing and craving led to suffering because we werent alligned. he believed in cessation of the will. that happiness came when we werent struggling against other forces when we were completely at rest. or as yo put it alligned.

nietzsche on the other hand thought lifes purpose was will to power. that struggling and not being alligned was good. that happiness comes from every struggle and challenge we overcome. nietzsche thought that self-overcoming was the way forward. he beliebed in the destruction and creation of values. he created his concept of the ubermensch. someone who goes beyond all good and evil and transcends all values in order to create his own. he wouldve wanted someone to completely to go out of phase with the simulation. to overcome the rules of the simlation and to destroy it basicly and then create his own values. to gain complete power.

i guess t depends on the person on which direction he wants to go.
Peace Rakim,

I'm somewhat familar with both these philosophers, but let me point out where I disagree with each of them to show that these aren't the only to options.

Schopenhauer appears to have a misconception of what "will" is, being that, from what you wrote, he has put it on the same level as "craving". The 2 are not the same. He is correct in saying that craving will lead to suffering as craving implies follow base desires regardless of natural law. Will on the other and the true application of it should only be seen as one being free from craving and desires in that they make the willful choice as whether to follow them or not. When there is application of the Will and one chooses to act in alignment with natural law there ceases to be suffering. This does not mean that there ceases to be struggle and challenges (this will obviously tie in when I address Nietzche) because if one observes natural law it is built on a cyclical system of Struggle -->Growth. Therefore to willfully align oneself with natural law is to willfully choose baptism by fire with the knowledge that overcoming struggle brings growth.
It is also important to not that choosing to align with natural law does not mean we pigeon hole ourselves into 1 choice of action in any given situation. I think I addressed this with you in another thread in that Natural Law is effectively like music. Natural Law plays certain chords so to speak as a guideline as to where the piece of music must go, as co-creators we would be wise to play in harmony with these chords but there are a vast, almost infinite choice of notes that can be played in harmony with the chords being played. And such is the adaptive nature of the universe that at times it will feed of the will of man and change and flow in accordance.
What I'm saying is, we have many "rights". There need not be the complete cessation of will, the cosmic dance is a back and forth interaction of all it's pieces.

Nietzche on the other hand seems to not understand that struggle and challenges is as much a part of the flow of the universe as growth and prosperity in fact they are 2 sides of the same coin. He also didn't seem to understand that it doesn't matter what we think or believe are values or rights (I assume you are using these interchangeably, correct me if I'm wrong) at the end of the day rights are inherent and cannot be created or destroyed by anyone or anything other than that which put them into place as a the Natural Order of things spoken of earlier. Neitzche is banging his head against a brick wall if he thinks he can gain "complete power" by creating his own morals/values/rights. It's impossible to do. He is but a drop of water in the ocean whilst he exists in this realm.

Lucifer fell from the heavens because he wanted to rule them. Not understanding that wanting to go against natural law is effectively going against oneself. When a kingdom is divided amongst itself how can it stand?
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Old 11-24-2012, 08:26 AM   #20
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will is a deliberate or fixed desire or intention. schopenhauer thought that the inner will of each person was the key to his existence. he also thought that will could be seen in forces. eg gravity is the fixed intention for 2 bodies to move towards eachother.

schopenhauer thought the ultimate universe was just one universal will experienced by all things.

schopenhauer also said how people find it very hard to change their behaviour because of their will.

struggling implies unease or dissatisfication. maybe suffering is too strong a word. maybe dukkha would be the best word to use.

you also used the phrase "wilful choice" which means a deliberate or intentional choice. this isnt the same as "will" which is a fixed desire/intention. "will" implies there is no choice but rather that its an innate behaviour in which something will act in a fixed manner.

i remember you speaking of a natural order earlier saying how theres fixed laws such as when you jump off a building that gravity will act on you even if you dont want it to. but i dont think its a matter of fixed laws bu more a matter of greater will. gravity has a much more greater will than the will of a person so it will almost always win.

but at other levels the will of gravity isnt as strong or the wills act differently. i dont look at the world as a place with fixed laws but rather i look at it in terms of probability in which certain actions are far more probable than others. at different levels the probabilities change.

i think that if a law doesnt exist at other other levels then it shouldnt be thought of as a fixed law. same as rights or values. theyre not fixed laws but rather theyre more universally accepted or more probable at that level.

nietzsche thought that all things have a will and that this will causes things to want to express themselves in an assertive fashion and to expand.

and so this is causes dukkha because different wills will oppose eachother. and so there will be tension. overcoming this tension is the best happiness.

and yes nietzsche said people must begin an undergoing before an overgoing. he believed we had to forget all our fixed perceptions and notions of the universe so that we can create our own values. its kind of like a ressurection. dionysius drags man down to the primordial unity. a total state of chaos in which all boundaries and rules are dissolved. a state of nothingness. from there apollo the god of interpretating dreams and individuation picks up man as he creates values and laws.

also an ubermensch isnt a ruler. he creates his own values but he doesnt wish to rule people because to do that hed have to change his values in order than theyre agreeable with those people.

also nietzsche thought that god is dead.

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