Church Vs. God.

[Obey]

What part of that scripture is sickening?

[Longbongcilvaringz]

.... what's the point in going into it.... i'd just be introducing my worldview to the scripture, which according to The W, you can't do (what he's basing this on i don't know and don't care to).

The passage i posted is disgusting, if you don't think so, then why would i post more of the same?

At the least, the bible (both volumes) are full of contradictions in morality. Using what is written in these books as a moral foundation, today, is blatantly stupid. Which isn't to say all monotheists are stupid, they just can't let their intelligence influence their religious beliefs

[Obey]

That passage meaning put God before everything?

And your saying the morals written thousands of years ago from the 10 commandments are stupid, and using them as a moral foundation in todays society would be blatantly stupid? Hello? We still use these today. If we used all of them imagine all the murders we'd save on cheating hoes, and hospitalising liars, and if we weren't jealous of others belongings, and all those killing themselves and others using Gods name in vain. Wouldn't life be more harmonic

[Face of the Golden Falcon]

Originally Posted by Obey

Jesus Christ offered himself, he could've decided to not go to Jerusalem.
God didn't kill Jesus lol the people did. Havent you read any of the gospels?

I've read the Gospels a number of times with different perspectives at different times.

It was quite obviously God's plan (according to Christianity/Paulism/Constantinism) that Jesus be murdered though. Which makes God in part morally culpable for that murder. The fact that he could not take responsiblility for his own plan and relied on deciet and having others do it for him is detestable. According to Torah blasphemy is punishable by death. They were following the instructions of their God when they murdered Jesus. If God had appeared in a burning bush to the Jews and said this Jesus guy is my Son and in fact me at the same time do you think the Jews would have murdered Jesus?

[Obey]

John 14: 9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”

John 10:30-33 Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

Okay firstly Jesus was God manifested in the flesh. They killed him because they saw it as blasphemy as Jesus claimed to be God. So how could God kill Jesus lol or murder him, if Jesus is God?

[Face of the Golden Falcon]

Originally Posted by Obey

Okay firstly Jesus was God manifested in the flesh. They killed him because they saw it as blasphemy as Jesus claimed to be God. So how could God kill Jesus lol or murder him, if Jesus is God?

So God teaches the Jews that it is a blasphemy for a man to claim himself God then sends himself in human form claiming to be God and expects them to act different to which he had told them? They did exactly as they had been instructed even if it was immoral.

I don't know how God could kill himself, let alone raise himself from the dead (how can he be really dead if he can raise himself from it???). These are not questions for me to answer.

The bible is largely astrotheological. It serves far greater purpose and is much more beautiful when read with this understanding.

[Longbongcilvaringz]

Originally Posted by Obey

That passage meaning put God before everything?

And your saying the morals written thousands of years ago from the 10 commandments are stupid, and using them as a moral foundation in todays society would be blatantly stupid? Hello? We still use these today. If we used all of them imagine all the murders we'd save on cheating hoes, and hospitalising liars, and if we weren't jealous of others belongings, and all those killing themselves and others using Gods name in vain. Wouldn't life be more harmonic

These ideas of morality predate religion. Regardless, religion is not a bad early attempt at philosophy but all monotheistic religions have terribly flawed morality. You picked the ten commandments - a good illustrations of how flawed and outdated religious morality is.

Out of 10 infallible, unbreakable precepts, only 5 relate to morality.

6. You shall not murder.

7. You shall not commit adultery.

8. You shall not steal.

9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

10. You shall not covet your neighbor's house.

And these have been improved upon greatly by even early philosophy. If only half of these commandments have any relevance to building a moral foundation, and all of these can easily being improved upon with a more nuanced response, what modern value do the commandments really have?

As much as no one here wants to admit it, modern civilisation outgrew religious morality many hundreds of years ago. The few morally sound passages of the bible that remain don't validate the rest of the text and don't validate applying them as an absolutist moral framework.

Originally Posted by Face of the Golden Falcon

I've read the Gospels a number of times with different perspectives at different times.

It was quite obviously God's plan (according to Christianity/Paulism/Constantinism) that Jesus be murdered though. Which makes God in part morally culpable for that murder. The fact that he could not take responsiblility for his own plan and relied on deciet and having others do it for him is detestable. According to Torah blasphemy is punishable by death. They were following the instructions of their God when they murdered Jesus. If God had appeared in a burning bush to the Jews and said this Jesus guy is my Son and in fact me at the same time do you think the Jews would have murdered Jesus?

Originally Posted by Face of the Golden Falcon

So God teaches the Jews that it is a blasphemy for a man to claim himself God then sends himself in human form claiming to be God and expects them to act different to which he had told them? They did exactly as they had been instructed even if it was immoral.

I don't know how God could kill himself, let alone raise himself from the dead (how can he be really dead if he can raise himself from it???). These are not questions for me to answer.

Co sign. The story of Jesus is morally awful and his teachings, as written in the bible, were meandering, inconsistent and at times horrific.

But then again Christianity is full of masochism, punishment and violence, which is a reflection of the time period in which the texts were written but also serves as a tool to bewilder and frighten poorly educated people into subscribing to it.

[Obey]

Longbong, correct me if I'm wrong, to me it looks like you're trying to justify your opinion with more opinion and without fact

Falcon, Jesus birth was prophesied, the Jews chose to believe Jesus was not God. Jesus didn't kill himself, he sacrificed his mortal body for the sins of every man who believes in him. He raised from the dead on the third day. He made Lazarus rise from death. He created everything, he can do anything. He is God

[rakimkoolgrapwutang]

Originally Posted by Longbongcilvaringz

Yes, we know, and it's disgusting from a moral perspective. But hey, the bible is generally and jesus teaching's were all over the place and pretty sickening in part.

"Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it."

I think everyone in this thread should go back to he first post and have a good think about it.

but how do you know jesus actually said that. isnt it totally possible that the author couldve put words into his mouth.

jesus said thinks like "forgive others and your sins will be forgiven". here he says sin is forgiven because of forgiving, not because of sacrifices.

but later paul tries to connect jesus' death with jewish sacrifice which is sloppy for many reasons.

also the gospels never actually mention the name of the author. it could be anyone called matthew/mark/luke or people pretending to be them.

in fact ive heard commentators state that marks gospel looks as if he used different sources and it wasnt written from his memory.

so how accurate are these other sources.

tbh i think its obvious that lots of people put their own words into jesus' mouth.

its impossible to be 100% certain what jesus' true teachings were but personally i always thought of him as a kind idiot and people just used his influence for their own selfish reasons.

[Face of the Golden Falcon]

Originally Posted by Obey

Falcon, Jesus birth was prophesied,

Obviously not very well. The Scribes and Pharisees apparently had no idea that the Messiah was actually going to be God in the Flesh. It was these guys whole life to study and interpret scripture but they missed that part some how?

Originally Posted by Obey

the Jews chose to believe Jesus was not God.

They chose to believe what God had told them in the Torah. They obviously had no idea that God was going to deceive them like that. Like I said though it was obviously God's plan for Jesus to be murdered. Someone had to do the murdering and God tricked the Jews into thinking it was the right thing to do, which of course (according to christianity) it apparently was because if it wasn't for the trickery and murder we wouldn't have been saved from our sins???!?!?!

Originally Posted by Obey

Jesus didn't kill himself, he sacrificed his mortal body for the sins of every man who believes in him.

Which is a beautifully poetic way of saying he killed himself. Thank you. That sort of emotional black mail may work in the pulpit on SUNday (did I mention astrotheology?) but not on me.

Originally Posted by Obey

He raised from the dead on the third day. He made Lazarus rise from death. He created everything, he can do anything. He is God

We're not going to get far if you're going to pull the "He is God" arguement. I don't have a problem with anything being possible for God. That's not the arguement. Whether or not something is possible for God does not give any more or less credibility to the collection of writings called the Bible. It would not be possible for me to come on here and claim almighty God is a bearded fellow named Zeus who sits on a mountain hurling lightning bolts and it's true because I read it in an ancient writing and anything is possible for God. I would get shut down pretty quick.

[THE W]

Originally Posted by Longbongcilvaringz

lol

of course you have problem with it.

God doesnt have the right to do what he wants to with what he has created. he has to answer to you...a created thing.

the pot bossing the potter around??? (romans 9:19-21)

[Obey]

Originally Posted by Face of the Golden Falcon

Obviously not very well. The Scribes and Pharisees apparently had no idea that the Messiah was actually going to be God in the Flesh. It was these guys whole life to study and interpret scripture but they missed that part some how?



They chose to believe what God had told them in the Torah. They obviously had no idea that God was going to deceive them like that. Like I said though it was obviously God's plan for Jesus to be murdered. Someone had to do the murdering and God tricked the Jews into thinking it was the right thing to do, which of course (according to christianity) it apparently was because if it wasn't for the trickery and murder we wouldn't have been saved from our sins???!?!?!

How could God kill Jesus if Jesus is God? He laid down his life for our sins, it's not murder if you know its going to happen and yet you go to face it

Originally Posted by Face of the Golden Falcon

We're not going to get far if you're going to pull the "He is God" arguement. I don't have a problem with anything being possible for God. That's not the arguement. Whether or not something is possible for God does not give any more or less credibility to the collection of writings called the Bible. It would not be possible for me to come on here and claim almighty God is a bearded fellow named Zeus who sits on a mountain hurling lightning bolts and it's true because I read it in an ancient writing and anything is possible for God. I would get shut down pretty quick.

If you had literal or historical facts then you'd hold a strong case. Whereas apart from all other evidence there are many prophecies fulfilled from the old testament.

Isaiah 7:14 (around 700BC) Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

[Face of the Golden Falcon]

Exactly. You don't have any actual facts. You cannot use the same book as evidence for the credibility of that book. Show other evidence that there was an historical virgin birth of a person named Jesus Christ.

[Face of the Golden Falcon]

Originally Posted by Obey

How could God kill Jesus if Jesus is God?

He is God.

Round and round we go.

Originally Posted by Obey

He laid down his life for our sins, it's not murder if you know its going to happen and yet you go to face it.

He was killed. Which is still against the commandments of the Torah. And it was against his will. "Not my will by yours" Jesus said in the garden. That's murder.

This is not to even mention the schizophrenic God we've got going here that has his own will and the will of "his fathers" which according to christiopaulconstaninism are the same being.

[Obey]

Name another book 2013 years old, or older that was written to the account of Christ or any religious prophet or leader for that matter. All the books in the Bible were written at different times in history and collaborated together forming the Bible. In other words, they were all once separate books