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Old 07-14-2013, 09:08 PM   #16
diggy
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Originally Posted by Nomad-1 View Post
The problem with Islam is that it isn't a creative force. Principalities, unlike republics are imperialist and not really societies in which thought is encouraged. Theocratic principalities are even worse. The Moors who built in Spain, were more worldly and less devout to Muhammad. Like Rome, like the Huns and other Asian tribes, whether you're talking in the time of Muhammad and the arab campaigns or the Ottomans, Islam built off other civilizations which it plundered. It's not a creative force.

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Why I think Muslims have fallen off? Their devotion to the Qur'an and Muhammad's dogmas, fears and hatred. They've been left behind and are now "a little people" as Lawrence said.
Correction. They have fallen off, because of NON-ADHERENCE, for the most part, to the Quran, and adherence to HADITH, which are statements attributed to Muhammad, but have close NO VALIDITY as a source of Islam.

Fears and hatred - ya, you could say that. Politics and racism.


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Worse than that, being in the information age means criticisms of the prophet and his message are easily spread. The flaws of his supposed revelations as well as the Muslim sources are out in the open.
Prove it if you can.
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Old 07-14-2013, 09:09 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Nomad-1 View Post
The problem with Islam is that it isn't a creative force. Principalities, unlike republics are imperialist and not really societies in which thought is encouraged. Theocratic principalities are even worse. The Moors who built in Spain, were more worldly and less devout to Muhammad. Like Rome, like the Huns and other Asian tribes, whether you're talking in the time of Muhammad and the arab campaigns or the Ottomans, Islam built off other civilizations which it plundered. It's not a creative force.
You are wrong about Islam not being a creative force. There are verses promoting critical thinking, exploration and empiricism.

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Originally Posted by Nomad-1 View Post
Why I think Muslims have fallen off? Their devotion to the Qur'an and Muhammad's dogmas, fears and hatred. They've been left behind and are now "a little people" as Lawrence said.
Correction. They have fallen off, because of NON-ADHERENCE, for the most part, to the Quran, and adherence to HADITH, which are statements attributed to Muhammad, but have NO VALIDITY as a source of Islam.

Fears and hatred - ya, you could say that. Politics and racism.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad-1 View Post
Worse than that, being in the information age means criticisms of the prophet and his message are easily spread. The flaws of his supposed revelations as well as the Muslim sources are out in the open.
Prove it if you can.
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Old 07-14-2013, 09:59 PM   #18
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You are wrong about Islam not being a creative force. There are verses promoting critical thinking, exploration and empiricism.
There are verses in the Qur'an that also state Alexander traveled West toward the place where the sun sets. Despite the fact, that he and his empire expanded out of Greece through Asia. East.
The Qur'an states that the To'rah(Tawrat) and Gospels(Injil) come from the same God as it and yet it says entirely different revelations. On top of that, it claims nobody can corrupt Allah's word. Qur'an 3.3 So, if no one can corrupt Allah's revelations why there myriad of differences? Add to that the Hadith and Muhammad's character, add to that, abrogating verses that convenience Muhammad such as Qur'an 33:50 which tells him he no longer has to follow an earlier revelation(Qur'an 4:3) that limited him and his followers to four wives.
Add to that Qur'an 33.53 states that no one may marry his divorced ex-wives and it becomes apparent what kind of man he was.
Illiterate, he never really understood prior revelation, To'rah and new testament.
Hence the reasons why people from the bible are found out of place and saying things they'd never say.
A trader, he dealt with people in the region, including the Gnostics hence why we have the story of another man on the cross, rather than Jesus; the Sabeans who fasted during Ramadan, prayed 5 times, circumambulated the Kaaba etc.
He took from the Apocrypha, he took from pagan peoples and the end result was his Qur'an.

If it were otherwise, one would expect the God of the Israelites to have a coherent message. The transition between the bible and Qur'an would be seamless, it isn't. If there was a gospel of Jesus, at least a copy would be found. If it was true that the bible and Torah were corrupted, it would contradict the Qur'an's claim that Allah's word is incorruptable but also, we would see a perfect manuscript somewhere. We have tens of thousands of documents related to the gospels and to the To'rah, none of them compliment the Qur'an.

You have two real choices, one of which is that the Qur'an is not perfect or the other, Muhammad simply made up his revelations as he went along and never really knew what he was talking about. The Jews would not have addressed Jesus as their Messiah and more over, Christ was coined by his later Greek followers. Therefor, linguistically, historically, the Qur'ans claims regarding the crucifixion are unsupported. More over, there's a mistake regarding Mary that only an Arab speaker would make. The Qur'an calls her Miriam, worse yet it calls her sister of Aaron. In the old testament, Miriam was indeed the sister of Aaron, Aaron who lived in the time of Moses....
And at that point, it's obvious who came up with the Qur'an. Not God but some mere Bedouin tribesmen.



I'm not saying ditch the religion but the errors and stupidity that would exist in adhering to it, as though it were without fault, will only leave you further backward. Words are corruptible, God is not a genie who just hands people all of life's answers and it's obvious why someone else would tell you the contrary, to gain power over you. I have faith in God but none in the truthfulness of men. For good reason. They're mortal, living in the moment and will throw you under the bus without so much as a forethought.





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Correction. They have fallen off, because of NON-ADHERENCE
Adhering to the principles of Islamic jurisprudence would be stupid. Have you ever actually read some of the laws muslims live under? In Saudi Arabia they still try people for witch craft. They're stuck in time and they will forever be nothing more than a U.S. protectorate.


As for Hadith having no validity, those people that wrote the earliest sources lived in the time of the prophet. They'll have more validity than you could ever hope for.


...

Last edited by Nomad-1; 07-14-2013 at 10:03 PM.
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Old 07-15-2013, 10:28 AM   #19
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eye don't think that "never ceen before standard of living in you-rope" was nessesarily due to "Muslims"...it was more the standard of living was caused by da black man's presence in Spain...owl elaborate more once the general chat(valley high school) degenerates come crawling out da hillsides down to KTL....LOL!!!!

but yeah....speaking personally...as a persona who walks around his kingdom of Axum(Annandale VA) in a Islamic looking robe guzzling bottles of Kombucha(GT daves Trilogy flavor) in broad daylight during "ramadan" and bad mouthing the da Quran and so called Orthidox Muslims to the youth....eye must say om feeling what Nomad-One is saying....

Thank da ruler of the sub-atomic level movement for mah Father Puddin Allah!!!!!!!!!

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Old 07-17-2013, 07:02 PM   #20
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True.






I believe I have discussed with you before that I reject hadith. I would translate the "foam of the sea" simile to mean filth rather than "numerous but weak".
To you your way and to me mine. If you reject Hadith that is entirely your decision. I sighted this in support of my point, not to try and sway anyone's opinion.
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Old 07-17-2013, 07:08 PM   #21
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Nomad, your argument is no more than guesswork at best. As diggy said, if you can prove any of this, I'll be more than glad to debate with you. Until then, you'll have to be ignored as another Islamophob bent on defacing something that he knows nothings about. Prove to me that the Muslims of Spain took anything that is mentioned above from anywhere that you named. The Ottomans were not following Qur'an and Sunnah which is why The Khilafah did not last under their leadership. Try reading literature that isn't deliberately geared toward the destruction of the reputation of Islam. Try actually speaking to Muslims and spending a bit of time with anyone who is Muslim where you live and you just may learn something.
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