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View Poll Results: Which was the worst decade, musically?
50's 8 16.00%
60's 0 0%
70's 1 2.00%
80's 15 30.00%
90's 3 6.00%
00's 23 46.00%
Voters: 50. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-12-2013, 11:11 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Sosa View Post
Yes it is. The production isn't the same, vocal styles, lyrics etc but a song might contain a few seconds of an old record.

How can new music be old music? The technique is different but its the same 'stealing' that always happens in art.
Imagine Mona Lisa, the painting, being sprayed over with graffiti.
Now imagine someone painting something that looks kind of like the Mona Lisa.
It's not the same. When you're listening to a 90's hip hop song, you're still listening to that that 70's soul song, or rather part of that song.

There is a difference.
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Old 08-12-2013, 11:34 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by JASPER View Post
Imagine Mona Lisa, the painting, being sprayed over with graffiti.
Now imagine someone painting something that looks kind of like the Mona Lisa.
It's not the same. When you're listening to a 90's hip hop song, you're still listening to that that 70's soul song, or rather part of that song.

There is a difference.
Yeah its a different technique. I understand you look down on sampling, and maybe you have a point about if we're talking about a puffy production. But most producers (certainly the ones i like) didn't do straight loops and had a lot of creative merit. Look at RZA, Pete Rock, Dr Dre, Bomb Squad, Dilla etc. Its not like they're stuck in the past, they used it as a jumping off point.

Anyway i enjoyed a lot of the 90s songs better than the songs they sampled, so why should i be concerned with giving credit to artists from the 70s?

Besides lol, by definition music made in the 90s was made in the 90s. Maybe Led Zeppelin records should be acknowledged as music from the 40s?
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Old 08-12-2013, 11:42 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Sosa View Post
Yeah its a different technique. I understand you look down on sampling, and maybe you have a point about if we're talking about a puffy production. But most producers (certainly the ones i like) didn't do straight loops and had a lot of creative merit. Look at RZA, Pete Rock, Dr Dre, Bomb Squad, Dilla etc. Its not like they're stuck in the past, they used it as a jumping off point.

Anyway i enjoyed a lot of the 90s songs better than the songs they sampled, so why should i be concerned with giving credit to artists from the 70s?

Besides lol, by definition music made in the 90s was made in the 90s. Maybe Led Zeppelin records should be acknowledged as music from the 40s?
Co-sign everything in this post. I can not understand why you would look at hiphop like that. Even looping requires a lot of technique at times. There are so many tracks where I absolutely hate the sample, even the part that has been sampled but when it was flipped it sounded so much better. Ofcourse respect goes out to the samplers, but don't act like making a beat is not a creative process.
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Old 08-12-2013, 12:26 PM   #124
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Funny thing is Jasper makes beats, hes got some kind of chip on his shoulder. a dick shaped chip, probably.
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Old 08-12-2013, 12:38 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Sosa View Post
Yeah its a different technique. I understand you look down on sampling, and maybe you have a point about if we're talking about a puffy production. But most producers (certainly the ones i like) didn't do straight loops and had a lot of creative merit. Look at RZA, Pete Rock, Dr Dre, Bomb Squad, Dilla etc. Its not like they're stuck in the past, they used it as a jumping off point.

Anyway i enjoyed a lot of the 90s songs better than the songs they sampled, so why should i be concerned with giving credit to artists from the 70s?

Besides lol, by definition music made in the 90s was made in the 90s. Maybe Led Zeppelin records should be acknowledged as music from the 40s?
Actually all those producers you listed used straight loops. I don't even look down on sampling, it's cool and it works.

All I was saying in the original post a page or two back is that I don't see music sampling songs from the 70's as typical 90's music. It's still very 70's except for the angry black men talking fast over it.

Also, I don't make beats.
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Old 08-12-2013, 12:57 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by JASPER View Post
Actually all those producers you listed used straight loops. I don't even look down on sampling, it's cool and it works.

All I was saying in the original post a page or two back is that I don't see music sampling songs from the 70's as typical 90's music. It's still very 70's except for the angry black men talking fast over it.

Also, I don't make beats.
You used to make beats.

Mostly those producers combined samples and flipped them, they had loops on top of loops, or they'd replay them. Theres a few RZA tracks that were straight loops but usually it was a bunch of samples plus played parts added.

Saying 'angry black men talking fast over it', i find a little offensive. I don't think you understand the appeal of hip hop at all.
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Old 08-12-2013, 01:08 PM   #127
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it takes more talent to play instruments thus why hip hop is below classic music, jazz, and rock

i rather read a poem by oscar wilde or james joyce instead of hearing rappers and it's almost the same thing except poets are better than rappers

rap stands for retards attempting poetry after all
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Old 08-12-2013, 01:16 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by JASPER View Post
Actually all those producers you listed used straight loops. I don't even look down on sampling, it's cool and it works.

All I was saying in the original post a page or two back is that I don't see music sampling songs from the 70's as typical 90's music. It's still very 70's except for the angry black men talking fast over it.

Also, I don't make beats.
This is not true. RZA did use loops mostly yes, but listen to GZA's Gold original sample and try to figure out how he did that. That's not a straight loop. There is a difference. Dr. Dre has a good ear, he's telling musicians what they should play at what moment and that requires talent. Pete Rock has loops, but a lot of chopped up beats as well. Most of Dilla's are not loops. People go to whosampled they listen to it and they think it's a loop, it's not. Why do you think that the same producers who sampled exactly the same piece made a beat that's way worse. If I would try to sample things these guys already did I would fail miserably. So many techniques are used for looping, you can chop a beat up in 16 pieces and then still loop it so it sounds slightly different. 99% of Pete and Dilla's drums and basslines are chops and not loops. Are you only listening to the sample? Most of the 90s beats have filtered basslines from the orginal sample. A lot of the drums are drumbreak loops (RZA did this, but he did layer them with 2 more breaks sometimes). Pete Rock I respect cause he listens to different samples, uses a trumpet from one sample, a bassline from another sample and some shakers he plays himself or a musician and makes it sound like it's original.


Listen to this



You were talking about loops. Literally everything in this beat is chopped up.


Sampling is a form of art, it's still not appreciated. All the musicians who don't sample, borrowed it from others to begin with. It's all the same. Their music comes from combining everything they heard and liked in the past and using that knowledge to make their own music. How is sampling any different? Who would give a fuck about Horizon Drive's 0.2 second music? Premier made it happen with Mass Appeal. No disrespect to the original, but Premier used it as a theme of the track. In the original it was the not even one second sound. The track would sound almost exactly the same without it. Just respect the originals and don't forget to give credits to the beatmakers either.
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Old 08-12-2013, 02:09 PM   #129
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it takes more talent to play instruments thus why hip hop is below classic music, jazz, and rock

i rather read a poem by oscar wilde or james joyce instead of hearing rappers and it's almost the same thing except poets are better than rappers

rap stands for retards attempting poetry after all
Lol

It takes more skill to play an instrument than make beats? Possibly, but they both take a long time to get to a professional standard. Plus its a matter of art vs craft. Being an excellent instrument player doesn't necessarily make you an excellent musician let alone artist. I'd take a real artist over somebody great at their craft anyday.

Also you're assuming that poetry and rap are the same form, they aren't. When i want to listen to music, why the fuck would i read a poem? The rap is equal parts the words and the vocal, possibly more vocal.

Plus rap lyrics are generally more interesting than other genres imo.
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Old 08-12-2013, 02:11 PM   #130
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You used to make beats.

Mostly those producers combined samples and flipped them, they had loops on top of loops, or they'd replay them. Theres a few RZA tracks that were straight loops but usually it was a bunch of samples plus played parts added.

Saying 'angry black men talking fast over it', i find a little offensive. I don't think you understand the appeal of hip hop at all.
I used to make beats, so I know. All those producers have used loops. I'm not saying they never chop though. So let's look at some beats of the producers you listed...


One of RZA's best beats if you ask me.



A classic Dr. Dre beat



Pete Rock



Loops.

Again, I'm not saying they never chop, but the most memorable beats are straight loops.

This is drifting too far from my original point though. Looped 70's/60's songs isn't decade defining. It doesn't say anything about 90's music. Except for the retards attempting poetry.



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Originally Posted by TheFunkyDrummer View Post
This is not true. RZA did use loops mostly yes, but listen to GZA's Gold original sample and try to figure out how he did that. That's not a straight loop. There is a difference. Dr. Dre has a good ear, he's telling musicians what they should play at what moment and that requires talent. Pete Rock has loops, but a lot of chopped up beats as well. Most of Dilla's are not loops. People go to whosampled they listen to it and they think it's a loop, it's not. Why do you think that the same producers who sampled exactly the same piece made a beat that's way worse. If I would try to sample things these guys already did I would fail miserably. So many techniques are used for looping, you can chop a beat up in 16 pieces and then still loop it so it sounds slightly different. 99% of Pete and Dilla's drums and basslines are chops and not loops. Are you only listening to the sample? Most of the 90s beats have filtered basslines from the orginal sample. A lot of the drums are drumbreak loops (RZA did this, but he did layer them with 2 more breaks sometimes). Pete Rock I respect cause he listens to different samples, uses a trumpet from one sample, a bassline from another sample and some shakers he plays himself or a musician and makes it sound like it's original.


Listen to this



You were talking about loops. Literally everything in this beat is chopped up.


Sampling is a form of art, it's still not appreciated. All the musicians who don't sample, borrowed it from others to begin with. It's all the same. Their music comes from combining everything they heard and liked in the past and using that knowledge to make their own music. How is sampling any different? Who would give a fuck about Horizon Drive's 0.2 second music? Premier made it happen with Mass Appeal. No disrespect to the original, but Premier used it as a theme of the track. In the original it was the not even one second sound. The track would sound almost exactly the same without it. Just respect the originals and don't forget to give credits to the beatmakers either.
I'm not even disagreeing with you.
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Old 08-12-2013, 02:15 PM   #131
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I make beats and i've pretty much stopped using samples. Its too hard for me to do it well, find a horn sample that goes with this bass etc. Records like Fear of a black planet and mecca and the soul brother seem like they would be a pain in the ass to compose when you compare it with how easy it is to just jam and pick out the best parts.
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Old 08-12-2013, 02:29 PM   #132
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I still thinks its comparable to Elvis taking 50s rock and roll styles and changing their sound. Or house music channeling disco, Modern indie rock aping new wave etc.

But i can see your point in certain cases when its wack hip hop lol.
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Old 08-12-2013, 03:45 PM   #133
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I make beats and i've pretty much stopped using samples. Its too hard for me to do it well, find a horn sample that goes with this bass etc. Records like Fear of a black planet and mecca and the soul brother seem like they would be a pain in the ass to compose when you compare it with how easy it is to just jam and pick out the best parts.
I get what you mean. I had this problem in the beginning as well. It was fun to sample things, but as I went on I realized I had to think more as a musician and that's extremely difficult. Like you said sample should fit with the drums and the bass and it should have some variation. I did not even bother until my friends put me onto records I was not familiar with. I tried to look at what my favorite producers did, check out the records (and similar ones) that they sampled. I'm not saying I'm a good beatmaker, but I do feel satisfaction when I'm done making a beat. It's frustrating when you have things in your head about how it should sound and it doesn't sound the same or close to it. I do know a lot more records and I hear more sounds cause I guess my ear got trained as I listened to more and more music.

Just curious. Why don't you try sampling again, if you want to, it should be possible. It does't have to be natural, check YouTube tutorials, your favorite producers, try to flip tracks they did in another way. I used to sample stuff Madlib did and think what would I do if I were Madlib. I do think I have my own style of making beat, but I'm a amateur. As long as it's fun for me to do it, I'll go on. Where can I check out some of your stuff?
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Old 08-12-2013, 04:24 PM   #134
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Check the audio booth, theres stuff in there it might be a few pages back. And i use samples occasionally but not like i used to.

I probably could get good at using a bunch of samples to make one beat but i'm more going for an electronic r&b sound now.

Making musics a lot of fun ain't it?
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Old 08-12-2013, 04:52 PM   #135
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Lol

It takes more skill to play an instrument than make beats? Possibly, but they both take a long time to get to a professional standard. Plus its a matter of art vs craft. Being an excellent instrument player doesn't necessarily make you an excellent musician let alone artist. I'd take a real artist over somebody great at their craft anyday.

Also you're assuming that poetry and rap are the same form, they aren't. When i want to listen to music, why the fuck would i read a poem? The rap is equal parts the words and the vocal, possibly more vocal.

Plus rap lyrics are generally more interesting than other genres imo.
a lot of musicians who play their instruments in the new york city subway stations could probably be better artists than even the best rappers if they were willing to put the same amount of effort in getting themselves out there or with whatever connections as them but this is the 21st century so realistically only flocks of dumb people will make shitty rappers famous by buying their shit while the ones with actual talent are ignored
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