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View Poll Results: Rappers, beat makers and DJ's are not in the same league as real musicians.
Agree 2 20.00%
Disagree 6 60.00%
Fuck you mean "real musicians"?...faggot 2 20.00%
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Old 04-09-2013, 08:38 AM   #1
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:05 AM   #2
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what is music ?
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:16 AM   #3
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The definition of 'real' is usually applied to traditional musical instruments like the guitar. That definition probably just means 'can you play a scale on it?'. Even then you can do that with a sampler and possibly a turntable if you were talented enough.

I think the opinion that hip hop is not real music is usually held by older people that don't know anything about how its made and crucially, don't like the music.

I don't understand rapping not being considered a musical instrument. A drum kit is a musical instrument so theres no logical argument against rap being one.
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:51 PM   #4
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Hip hop is obviously a form of music. That can't be argued against.

The thing about it is that you don't need to know a single thing about music to make the highest quality of hip hop. Scales, keys, chords, notes etc....anything that "real music" is based and structured on, is not necessary to understand to make hip hop. And I'm pretty sure the overwhelming majority of people in hip hop wouldn't know the first thing about music theory. Probably only those who actually play a real musical instrument or have in the past.

Beats are based on structures, but they don't incorporate the principals of music theory. Rather they're just based on timing and layering of sounds. I doubt that when 99% of beat makers use a piano loop or a guitar riff in a beat that they even have any idea what key it's in and if it logically fits in with the other instruments in the beat.

And don't get me wrong here. I don't know shit about beat making and I know very little about music theory. I'm definitely not trying to sound like an expert here. Just telling it as I understand it.

As for rapping. Again it's basically just based on timing. And in some cases (see early 9th Prince), not even that. There's no regard for key or tone or anything a skilled vocalist might apply to their vocal delivery over a particular instrumental. You don't need to know a single thing about music theory to be the greatest rapper in the world. You just need to have a feeling for timing and otherwise be able to make yourself sound appealing and write some decent lyrics.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to hate. Like I said hip hop is a real form of music. As for rappers, beat makers, and DJ's, I don't know that I would personally call them "real musicians", though I wouldn't be the slightest bit bothered if somebody did.

And the disregard for traditional musical theory in hip hop is really one of its strong points. It's means anything goes. As long as it sounds good then do it...Nothing negative about that. Other things I would say that hip hop has over other forms of music is the delivery of the vocal allowing for a lot more lyrics in a short space of time. Unfortunately the overwhelming majority of rappers are unable to capitalise on this advantage and just write throwaway crap. But hey, at least the opportunity is there if they can learn how to write something decent.

Also the guest spot is a great thing about hip hop. Although it can be a burden when abused. But the ease with which different rappers/producers can chop and change and work with one another, is a great feature maybe not exclusive to hip hop, but certainly most effective and easy to execute.
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:55 PM   #5
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good double tongued argument


hip hop is what corporations use to sell their product

HipHop is the greatest form of expression today

there is a difference

it doesn't need to be limited by a structure - Music was made technical for those who didn't have natural timing - and this so called structure limited their expression - HipHop is unlimited,can use sound from anything anywhere, and throw it in your face -

HipHop isn't limited to spoken word or rap - Hip Hoppers also sing -
Hip Hoppers also play traditional musical instruments -

there was a time where electronic instruments were considered untraditional


samplers, and other musical machines were also made so that those without natural timing can get down and get paid - but of cause, us Hip Hoppers took an advantage of that as well - it's funny how some like to make what we do look like primitive expression to make themselves feel like they are better/supreme then try to pretend that that's not what they are doing in a sad kinda way -

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Old 04-09-2013, 09:11 PM   #6
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That's all fairly true, but I think you're getting confused into thinking that I am trying to discredit hip hop as a whole rather than just suggest that those who make hip hop music are not in the same league as people who have spent a life time honing their skills on their instrument of choice and learning how to understand it, why it does what it does and how to most effectively use it.

That's not to say that hip hoppers have no talent or skills themselves. Just that it's not really comparable to to the above mentioned types.

Put it this way. A person with no previous experience could sit down at his computer, download a beat making program, and have a really dope, functional beat probably within a couple of hours. A person with no previous experience could sit down with a guitar, try to play it, get nowhere, get some books and dvd's, a few lessons if they still couldn't make sense of it, and then if they really knuckle down and put in the hours every day, both playing and studying theory, they might be able to play a decent instrumental of their own after a few years.

That's where I'm coming from.
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Old 04-10-2013, 02:40 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by noel411 View Post
That's all fairly true, but I think you're getting confused into thinking that I am trying to discredit hip hop as a whole rather than just suggest that those who make hip hop music are not in the same league as people who have spent a life time honing their skills on their instrument of choice and learning how to understand it, why it does what it does and how to most effectively use it.

That's not to say that hip hoppers have no talent or skills themselves. Just that it's not really comparable to to the above mentioned types.

Put it this way. A person with no previous experience could sit down at his computer, download a beat making program, and have a really dope, functional beat probably within a couple of hours. A person with no previous experience could sit down with a guitar, try to play it, get nowhere, get some books and dvd's, a few lessons if they still couldn't make sense of it, and then if they really knuckle down and put in the hours every day, both playing and studying theory, they might be able to play a decent instrumental of their own after a few years.

That's where I'm coming from.
it's still double tongued talk


you're saying that you're not saying that Hip Hoppers don't have any skill, but it doesn't take much skill to express HipHop.



it's been hijacked and watered down and made into a machine so that it can easily be exploited by those with no talent to sell products - and what they give the world is hip hop

lower case > h ip lower case h op


True Hip Hoppers can pick up a guitar, a bass, use it to express themselves, and not have any previous experience in using it, and not know music theory, and it'll be dominant expression that the whole world follows.


so called musicians who are not HipHop cannot express Hip Hop no matter how good they are at their instrument because they are limited to so called structure. Hip Hop is not limited to being just music

Respect Hip Hop

capital > H ip capital > H op
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Old 04-10-2013, 06:33 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noel411 View Post
As for rapping. Again it's basically just based on timing. And in some cases (see early 9th Prince), not even that. There's no regard for key or tone or anything a skilled vocalist might apply to their vocal delivery over a particular instrumental. You don't need to know a single thing about music theory to be the greatest rapper in the world. You just need to have a feeling for timing and otherwise be able to make yourself sound appealing and write some decent lyrics.
By 'timing' do you mean rhythm? ie a fundamental part of music. rapping is a rhythmic element of hip hop music just like drums are.

You don't need to know about music theory to rap or use a sampler thats true. you also don't need to know shit about music theory to play drums or guitar, and a lot of professional musicians don't.

Maybe you can view the guitar as a traditional instrument and a copy of fruity loops as a modern one. You make the point that a beginner could make a good beat in a few hours. I highly doubt that. It would be the equivalent of spending a few hours on a guitar and getting a few basic chord changes down.
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Old 04-10-2013, 06:41 AM   #9
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http://www.rapanalysis.com/

this is an interesting site that tells you all about the rhythmic notation going on in hip hop.

regardless of if you know the music theory behind it, it can get much more complicated than 'timing'. eg breath control, maintaining a tone or a timbre, delivery, flow etc. these are all things that take time to learn and do well.
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Old 04-10-2013, 10:21 AM   #10
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ha, shut up noel.
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Old 04-10-2013, 05:15 PM   #11
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Good points lads. I'm not gonna refute any of that. Although I will say...
Quote:
It would be the equivalent of spending a few hours on a guitar and getting a few basic chord changes down.
that that is madness. You might learn a few chord changes in a few hours but to actually get them down fluently you're talking at least several months. Not to mention strumming cleanly/hitting the right strings/not hitting the wrong strings, while you play them. Of course it depends on how much natural ability you have, but for the average Joe, you're talking a whole fucking lot of practice to get those changes down to the point where they sound half decent.
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Old 04-10-2013, 05:21 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by LORD NOSE View Post
True Hip Hoppers can pick up a guitar, a bass, use it to express themselves, and not have any previous experience in using it, and not know music theory, and it'll be dominant expression that the whole world follows.
Also I would like to ask Sunny, what percentage of people in hip hop these days do you think are "true Hip Hoppers"? Are there still any left?
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Old 04-10-2013, 07:01 PM   #13
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interesting thread. "Rappers" and "Beat Makers" i wouldnt call em' real musicians if you want me to get technical. rather MCs' & Hip Hop Producers are def. musicians.
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Old 04-10-2013, 07:13 PM   #14
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"true Hip Hoppers"? Are there still any left?
Plenty - the world is filled with us


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Originally Posted by noel411 View Post
Also I would like to ask Sunny, what percentage of people in hip hop these days do you think are "true Hip Hoppers"?

people in the business ? that are true HipHoppers ?

true HipHoppers are encouraged to use their skill to provide for themselves and their families - this is not limited to musical expression -
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:28 AM   #15
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I someone writes their own music/lyrics then they are real musician, the fags on the radio today who have 8 writers and 6 producers for a song that only has a few lines and a chorus is not real music.

People like Nas, Ghost and rappers who write all their own lyrics, and have input production wise and add to the sound of each song are just as real musicians as anyone else. They make music because they love it and are not just some boy band that was put together by a label to make money.

In my opinion thats what being "real" in the music business is all about.l
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