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Old 03-03-2006, 07:38 AM   #1
"Masta-Mind"
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Default Life after death Explained.

Peace

This is in obvious respons to some of the comments made in the poll thread entitled ''Is there life after death".

Quote:
Originally Posted by My First Timbs
there is no reason or rational stance to take that would allow one to think there there is anything after death.
For clearity it should be noted that the information about life after death or the hereafter that i will insha ALLAH be posting is based on the Islamic belief in life after death and that all the people who believein it may not agree with all that islam teaches in this topic.

Secondly this info is from a well known (maybe not to every1 here but i guess u gotta take my word 4 it) scholar on comarative religon, his name is Zakir Naik.

I wanted to make a new thread 4 this because i was sure that it could spark big discussions bordering arguments and didnt want to flood the other thread with irelavent posts.

I hope this is clear and please read through before u post something. Thank u.

Peace



Q - How can you prove the existence of hereafter, i.e. life after death?

A - 1. Belief in the hereafter is not based on blind faith?
Many people wonder as to how a person with a scientific and logical temperament, can lend any credence to the belief of life after death. People assume that anyone believing in the hereafter is doing so on the basis of blind belief.
My belief in the hereafter is based on a logical argument.

2. Hereafter a logical belief
There are more than a thousand verses in the Glorious Qur’an, containing scientific facts (refer my book "Qur’an and Modern Science-Compatible or Incompatible?"). Many facts mentioned in the Qur’an have been discovered in the last few centuries. But science has not advanced to a level where it can confirm every statement of the Qur’an.
Suppose 80% of all that is mentioned in the Qur’an has been proved 100% correct. About the remaining 20%, science makes no categorical statement, since it has not advanced to a level, where it can either prove or disprove these statements. With the limited knowledge that we have, we cannot say for sure whether even a single percentage or a single verse of the Qur’an from this 20% portion is wrong. Thus when 80% of the Qur’an is 100% correct and the remaining 20% is not disproved, logic says that even the 20% portion is correct. The existence of the hereafter, which is mentioned in the Qur’an, falls in the 20% ambiguous portion which my logic says is correct.

3. Concept of peace and human values is useless without the concept of hereafter
Is robbing a good or an evil act? A normal balanced person would say it is evil. How would a person who does not believe in the hereafter convince a powerful and influential criminal that robbing is evil?
Suppose I am the most powerful and influential criminal in the world. At the same time I am an Intelligent and a logical person. I say that robbing is good because it helps me lead a luxurious life. Thus robbing is good for me.
If anybody can put forward a single logical argument as to why it is evil for me, I will stop immediately. People usually put forward the following arguments:
a. The person who is robbed will face difficulties
Some may say that the person who is robbed will face difficulties. I certainly agree that it is bad for the person who is robbed. But it is good for me. If I rob a thousand dollars, I can enjoy a good meal at a 5 star restaurant.
b. Someone may rob you
Some people argue that someday I may be robbed. No one can rob me because I am a very powerful criminal and I have hundreds of bodyguards. I can rob anybody but nobody can rob me. Robbing may be a risky profession for a common man but not for an influential person like me.
c. The police may arrest you
Some may say, if you rob, you can be arrested by the police. The police cannot arrest me because I have the police on my payroll. I have the ministers on my payroll. I agree that if a common man robs, he will be arrested and it will be bad for him, but I am an extraordinarily influential and powerful criminal.
Give me one logical reason why it is bad for me and I will stop robbing.
d. Its easy money
Some may say its easy money and not hard-earned money. I agree completely that it is easy money, and that is one of the main reasons why I rob. If a person has the option of earning money the easy as well as the hard way, any logical person would choose the easy way.
e. It is against humanity
Some may say it is against humanity and that a person should care for other human beings. I counter argue by asking as to who wrote this law called ‘humanity’ and why should I follow it?
This law may be good for the emotional and sentimental people but I am a logical person and I see no benefit in caring for other human beings.
f. It is a selfish act
Some may say that robbing is being selfish. It is true that robbing is a selfish act; but then why should I not be selfish? It helps me enjoy life.
1. No logical reason for robbing being an evil act
Hence all arguments that attempt to prove that robbing is an evil act are futile. These arguments may satisfy a common man but not a powerful and influential criminal like me. None of the arguments can be defended on the strength of reason and logic. It is no surprise that there are so many criminals in this world.
Similarly raping, cheating etc. can be justified as good for a person like me and there is no logical argument that can convince me that these things are bad.
2. A Muslim can convince a powerful and influential criminal
Now let us switch sides. Suppose you are the most powerful and influential criminal in the world, who has the police and the ministers on his payroll. You have army of thugs to protect you. I am a Muslim who will convince you that robbing, raping, cheating, etc. are evil acts.
Even if I put forth the same arguments to prove that robbing is evil the criminal will respond the same way as he did earlier.
I agree that the criminal is being logical and all his arguments are true only when he is the most powerful and influential criminal.
3. Every human being wants justice
Each and every human being desires justice. Even if he does not want justice for others he wants justice for himself. Some people are intoxicated by power and influence and inflict pain and suffering on others. The same people, however, would surely object if some injustice was done to them. The reason such people become insensitive to the suffering of others is that they worship power and influence. Power and influence, they feel, not only allows them to inflict injustice on others but also prevents others from doing likewise to them.
4. God is Most Powerful and Just
As a Muslim I would convince the criminal about the existence of Almighty God (refer to answer proving the existence of God). This God is more powerful than you and at the same time is also just. The Glorious Qur’an says:
"Allah is never unjust
In the least degree"

[Al-Qur’an 4:40]
5. Why does God not punish me?
The criminal, being a logical and scientific person, agrees that God exists, after being presented with scientific facts from the Qur’an. He may argue as to why God, if He is Powerful and Just, does not punish him.
6. The people who do injustice should be punished
Every person who has suffered injustice, irrespective of financial or social status, almost certainly wants the perpetrator of injustice to be punished. Every normal person would like the robber or the rapist to be taught a lesson. Though a large number of criminals are punished, many even go scot-free. They lead a pleasant, luxurious life, and even enjoy a peaceful existence. If injustice is done to a powerful and influential person, by someone more powerful and more influential than he, even such a person would want that person perpetrators of injustice to be punished.
7. This life is a test for the hereafter
This life is a test for the hereafter. The Glorious Qur’an says:
"He who created Death And life that He May try which of you Is best in deed; And He is the Exalted In Might, Oft-Forgiving" [Al-Qur’an 67:2]
8. Final justice on day of judgement
The Glorious Qur’an says:
"Every soul shall have A taste of death: And only on the Day Of Judgement shall you Be paid your full recompense. Only he who is saved Far from the Fire And admitted to the Garden Will have attained The object (of life): For the life of this world Is but goods and chattels Of deception." [Al-Qur’an 3:185]
Final justice will be meted out on the Day of Judgement. After a person dies, he will be resurrected on the Day of Judgement along with the rest of mankind. It is possible that a person receives part of his punishment in this world. The final reward and punishment will only be in the hereafter. God Almighty may not punish a robber or a rapist in this world but he will surely be held accountable on the Day of Judgement and will be punished in the hereafter i.e. life after death.
9. What punishment can the human law give Hitler?
Hitler incinerated six million Jews during his reign of terror. Even if the police had arrested him, what punishment can the human law give Hitler for justice to prevail? The most they can do is to send Hitler to the gas chamber. But that will only be punishment for the killing of one Jew. What about the remaining five million, nine hundred and ninety nine thousand, nine hundred and ninety-nine Jews?
10. Allah can burn Hitler more than six million times in hellfire
Allah say in the Glorious Qur’an:"Those who reject Our signs, We shall soon Cast into the Fire; As often as their skins Are roasted through, We shall change them For fresh skins, That they may taste The penalty: for Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise" [Al-Qur’an 4:56]
If Allah wishes he can incinerate Hitler six million times in the hereafter in the hellfire.
11. No concept of human values or good and bad without concept of hereafter
It is clear that without convincing a person about the hereafter, i.e. life after death, the concept of human values and the good or evil nature of acts is impossible to prove to any person who is doing injustice especially when he is influential and powerful.
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Last edited by "Masta-Mind"; 03-10-2006 at 07:30 AM.
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Old 03-03-2006, 02:52 PM   #2
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Emphatically, I disagree with the above...

For Example...I don't believe that after my physical death I'm going to the hereafter and I don't rob people and be evil...even if I was powerful and rich I would have no desire to do those evil acts because I love myself too much.

People that do evil like that don't have love for themselves so they are already dead...They can't realize the heaven of Allah that is here after you submit because their hearts have hardened.

Dying a physical death is just another form of death for them...Allah is a living God.

Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
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Old 03-03-2006, 04:47 PM   #3
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this does not prove that there is life after death
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Old 03-03-2006, 04:58 PM   #4
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you die
you absorb nutrients
your body rebuilds
and
you go at it again

like a long afternoon nap
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Old 03-03-2006, 06:08 PM   #5
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You die, the Universe recycles you ... pz ...
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Old 03-03-2006, 06:23 PM   #6
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damn masta mind.. when i read the title of this thread i thought to myself "maybe this thread will contain some great nobel prize worthy argument/evidence that will potentially show that its possible for life after death to exist"..

nontheless,, im extremely disappointed as your post sadly showed nothing......

and had nothing to do with life after death being possible..let alone proof for it
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Old 03-03-2006, 06:28 PM   #7
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Reincarnation means that the soul is changing bodies. This change of bodies occurs not only at death, but throughout life; from boyhood to youth to old age, then to a baby's body.1 These moment by moment changes are too small for the person to be aware of; but when we consider greater amounts of time, then the change of bodies is obvious. The change of body known as death is the most apparent The Bhagavad-gita compares the change of body at the time of death to a person discarding old and useless clothes, and putting on new garments.2 Regardless of whatever plans and adjustments we make, our body eventually wears out, and we are obliged to accept a new one. Although everyone must die, still we are making plans as though death was not certain. Saints have described this as the most amazing thing in world. That is, even though we see that everyone is dying and getting old, we think that it will not happen to us, and we neglect the real purpose of human life: self-realization. One must inquire as to what happens at the time of death.

Although one may have the body of a man in this life, the soul may take the body of a woman in the next. One may have an oriental body in one birth, a western body in the next; or one may take birth in an animal or insect species as a result of one's activities and desires in this fife. It is important to understand how the soul transmigrates from one body to the next.
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Old 03-03-2006, 06:38 PM   #8
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peace

i understand exactly what being said but it honestly isnt tackling the issue at hand.

lets keep it simple, when we talk of death we are not meely talking about change from one transition to another...

we are talking about simply life or some sort of existence after the physical death (cease of all life functions and viability) ultimately resulting in decay... not mental or metsphysical death or decay.. not transitions from stage to stage, but objective death
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Old 03-03-2006, 06:59 PM   #9
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the second death is the "hear after".

i think this guy makes an interesting point. if you believe in no god and just believe that we are born and we die and there is really no punishment for what we do(as long as we are not caught) what is the reason to ever be unselfish?

i think that while may not formally follow jesus, i'd say most people do believe in some type of higher power that will bring judgement whether immediate or in time.
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Old 03-03-2006, 07:12 PM   #10
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Naw...what I'm saying is that they already have a great measure of they punishment...being selfish and evil is not a happy place to be. They are not truley alive...they are seperated from God.

They are already dead...the second death comes when they realize it.
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Old 03-03-2006, 07:24 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeDyNaMiTe
the second death is the "hear after".

i think this guy makes an interesting point. if you believe in no god and just believe that we are born and we die and there is really no punishment for what we do(as long as we are not caught) what is the reason to ever be unselfish?

i think that while may not formally follow jesus, i'd say most people do believe in some type of higher power that will bring judgement whether immediate or in time.
WADE

that is one of the longest running falsehoods and erroneous thought processes.

u have to understand that the atheist does not differentiate him or herself from any other living thing. That being the case the non believer is truly concerned with what matters to living things (that being the continued success and survival of our genetic code and species!)

the only way that the atheist can contribute to this grande "design" of nature is to act and behave only in such a way that is totally beneficial to all of humanity on the whole ! By consciously structuring ones life around continuing the success of the species, the atheist is OBLIGATED to only do things that are beneficial to the overall species!

this simple concept is why the non believer doesnt commit crimes and do other dastardly things .. the non believer doesnt feel free to do whatever vile things humans want to do.. we honestly feel that we have a noble duty to nature and to the rest of the species to try and prevent such behavior !! because such behavior decreases out overalll chances of survival!

now......on the other hand! the religionist or one who believes in a higher power, only chooses to "do good, or not do bad" merely because they do not want to upset their designer! and potentially fear punishment! this is a big difference than the atheist who honorably takes everythng into their own hands and views themself as responsible for the future generations!

in addition, belief in a higher power actually encourages negative behavior on a subconscious level..

i will expand on this if necessary
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Old 03-03-2006, 07:28 PM   #12
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hmm..

i think there are many people who know they are selfish and evil but do not care because they do not experiencing the reprocutions of their actions. they know it very well but dont care because its getting them what they want. this is what the article is saying about when god lets people get away with many things. in the "hear after" there will be judgement and the people who were getting away with everything will finally be punished and those he oppressed will be lifted up to life.

Luke 6:17-26

17He went down with them and stood on a level place. A large crowd of his disciples was there and a great number of people from all over Judea, from Jerusalem, and from the coast of Tyre and Sidon, 18who had come to hear him and to be healed of their diseases. Those troubled by evil[a] spirits were cured, 19and the people all tried to touch him, because power was coming from him and healing them all.
20Looking at his disciples, he said:
"Blessed are you who are poor,
for yours is the kingdom of God.
21Blessed are you who hunger now,
for you will be satisfied.
Blessed are you who weep now,
for you will laugh.
22Blessed are you when men hate you,
when they exclude you and insult you
and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.

23"Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their fathers treated the prophets.
24"But woe to you who are rich,
for you have already received your comfort.
25Woe to you who are well fed now,
for you will go hungry.
Woe to you who laugh now,
for you will mourn and weep.
26Woe to you when all men speak well of you,
for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets.
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Old 03-03-2006, 07:36 PM   #13
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The repercussions of their actions?!!

You could shove they whole hand in a garbage disposal and grind they shit to pieces...that would not stop them. That's not even close to justice. And they would just do evil with they other hand.

Judgement has to do with self...the more people who gain self understanding the more they will burn....until they realize how wrong they whole life was and then they will burn more.
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Old 03-03-2006, 07:43 PM   #14
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see thats just it..

the religious "higher power" point of view in a way, has conditioned ppl into viewing things as a matter of action vs consequence

or reward vs punishment...

there really are no punsihment to the individual from an objective non believer point of view... (but that sok)

those who are non believers are not concerned with themselves! we view the overall population of humanity as the bigger picture

so for example, if i go out and rob and steal.... i may never personally fell the punishment/negative result of my poor behavior!

what happens is tha tthe whole human population bears this burden of my poor behavior and thus the survival value of homo sapiens is decreased by some small percentage! thus negative behavior over time will yield a negative effect on the poputlation!

i do not steal or kill simply because as an atheist, my supreme concern is that the future population of homo sapiens continues to live on and be successful..stealing and killing will not allow this!
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Old 03-03-2006, 07:51 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by My First Timbs
see thats just it..

the religious "higher power" point of view in a way, has conditioned ppl into viewing things as a matter of action vs consequence

or reward vs punishment...

there really are no punsihment to the individual from an objective non believer point of view... (but that sok)

those who are non believers are not concerned with themselves! we view the overall population of humanity as the bigger picture

so for example, if i go out and rob and steal.... i may never personally fell the punishment/negative result of my poor behavior!

what happens is tha tthe whole human population bears this burden of my poor behavior and thus the survival value of homo sapiens is decreased by some small percentage! thus negative behavior over time will yield a negative effect on the poputlation!

i do not steal or kill simply because as an atheist, my supreme concern is that the future population of homo sapiens continues to live on and be successful..stealing and killing will not allow this!
sure it will,

its been going on for 10 of thousands of years. people have been stealing a killing each other forever and we aint going anywhere anytime soon. there is all types of immorality going on today. i agree that the quality of life will decrease(at least in the case of self satisfaction cuz as far as material goods and luxuries we are getting better and better by the day) but its not gonna effect servival.

but if it works for you...
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