"Ask My First Timbs" Q&A thread

[MASTER PAI MEI]

PEACE Timbs thanks for the reply...Glad I could spark your interest ....Thats why we all post in KTL...PeacecaeP

[sweet sista]

In the Holy Koran there is a verse where Allah “God” speaks about the stages of man's embryonic development.

{We created man from an extract of clay. Settlement, firmly fixed. Then we made the drop into an alaqa (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then we made the alaqa into a mudghah (chewed substance)...} (Koran, 23:12-14)

Literally, the Arabic word alaqah has three meanings:
(1) leech, (2) suspended thing, and (3) blood clot.

In comparing a leech to an embryo in the alaqah stage, we find similarity between the two, 2 as we can see in figure 1. Also,the embryo at this stage obtains nourishment from the blood of the mother,similar to the leech,which feeds on the blood of others.

The second meaning of the word alaqah is “suspended thing”. This is what we can see in figure 2 and 3 , the suspension of the embryo, during the alaqah stage, in the womb of the mother.













The third meaning of the word alaqah is “blood clot.” We find that the external appearance of the embryo and its sacs during the alaqah stage is similar to that of a blood clot. This is due to the presence of relatively large amounts of blood present in the embryo during this stage (see figure 4). Also during this stage, the blood in the embryo doesn't circulate until the end of the third week Thus, the embryo at this stage is like a clot of blood.




So the three meanings of the word alaqah correspond accurately to the descriptions of the embryo at the alaqah stage.

The next stage mentioned in the verse is mudghah stage. The Arabic word mudghah means “chewed substance.” If one were to take a piece of gum and chew it in his or her mouth and then compare it to with an embryo at the mudghah stage, we would conclude that the embryo at the mudghah stage is similar in appearance to a chewed substance. This is because of the somites at the back of the embryo that “somewhat resemble teethmarks in a chewed substance” (see figure 5 and 6)




How could prophet Muhammad – may Allah's peace be upon him- have possibly known all this about fourteen hundred ago, when scientists have only recently discovered this using advanced equipment and powerful microscope which did not exist at that time? Hamm and Leeuwenhoek were the first scientists to observe the human sperm cells (spermatozoa) using an improved microscope in 1677 (more than 1000 years after prophet Muhammad -may Allah's peace be upon him-). They mistakenly thought that the sperm cell contained a miniature performed human being that grew when it was deposited in the female genital tract.



Professor Emeritus Keith L. Moore is one of the world's most prominent scientists in the field of anatomy and embryology and the author of the book entitled The developing Human, which has been translated into eight languages. This book is a scientific reference work and was chosen by a special committee in the United States as the best book authored by one person. Dr. Keith Moore is a professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Cell Biology at the University of Toronto, Toronto, Canada. There, he was Associate Dean of Basic Sciences at the Faculty of Medicine and for 8 years was the Chairman of the Department of the Anatomy. In 1984, he received the most distinguished award presented in the field of anatomy in Canada, the J.C.B Grant Award from the Canadian Association of Anatomists. He has directed many international Associations, such as the Canadian and the American Association of Anatomists and the Council of the Union of the Biological Sciences.

In 1981, during the seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Professor Moore said: “It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements from Koran about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God”

Consequently, professor Moore was aksed the following question: “Does this mean that you believe that the Koran is the word of God?” He replied: “I find no difficulty accepting this.”

During one conference, Professor Moore stated: “....Because the staging of human embryo is complex, owing to the continuous process of change during development, it is proposed that a new system of classification could be developed using the terms mentioned in the Koran and “sunnah”(what Muhammad said,did, or approved of). The proposed system is simple, comprehensive, and conforms with present embryological knowledge. The intensive studies of the Koran and hadeeth ( reliably transmitted reports by the prophet Muhammad's companions of what he said, did or approved of) in the last four years have revealed system for classifying human embryos that is amazing since it was recorded in the seventh century A.D. Although Aristotle, the founder of the science of embryology, realized that chick embryos developed in stages from his studies of hen's eggs in the fourth century B.C., he did not give any details about these stages. As far as it is known from the history of embryology, little was known about the staging and the classification of human embryos until the twentieth century. For this reason, the descriptions of the human embryos in the Koran can not be based on scientific knowledge in the seventh century. The only reasonable conclusion is: these descriptions were revealed to Muhammad from God. He could not have known such details because he was an illiterate man with absolutely no scientific training.” and he was known among his people for being honest, modest, truthful and trusty.

[Jaemillz]

i think this pretty much sums it up

Originally Posted by My First Timbs

The Quran is far from miraculous or exquisite or mind boggling in its description of alleged biological processes. The alleged accuracy of description of "embryology" (if u wanna call it that) in the quran is far from special. Everything that is “explained” as a form of embryology (before scientific advancement) can easily (very very easily) be explained by the most simplistic observation of living creatures and the natural processes of life…



Muslims of the 6th and 7th century (the alleged time of Muhammed), would damn well know (just as every human who has ever been on the planet and reached sexual maturity..or watched sexually mature creatures other than humanity) that procreation is only possible when there is a “propulsion of fluid or as they say "nutfah")… so strike one against the claim that this is evidence that the Quran is divinely inspired… nothing special here…….its nothing but a direct observation.. whats so divine about it?….nothing





Now u must ask yourself honestly.. is any of this evidence of divine inspiration? Is any of this evidence that something magical must have going on in the 6th century for people to “know this”?

The answer u get when u honestly answer those questions is a hard and loud NO !

Humans have had some form or sort of experience with "embryological development" for hundreds of thousands of years (since the dawn of civilization) .. and as for the whole magical , awe inspiring claim of “clot”.. any human would who has ever observed nature (or unfortunately has had experience with a miscarriage (or even a heavy menstrual cycle ) would describe a “fetal conceptus” as blood clot like)! This isn’t rocket science (it isn’t even science… its called natural observation and conjecture !

Now u must ask yourself honestly again.. is any of this evidence of divine inspiration? Is any of this evidence that something magical must have been going on in the 6th century for people to “know this”?

The answer u get when u honestly answer those questions is a hard and loud NO !

But wait! It gets even better! The Quran’s attempt at “embryology” states (as I noted above) that basically

Step 1) nutfah gushes out ....presumably into the female
Step 2) this fusion of fluids causes a clot of tissue to begin to form (leech like in appearance)

Step 3) the clot like tissue grows into a bigger lump

Step 4) the lumpy mess grows bones

Step 5) the lumpy bony “thing” is then finally wrapped in a covering of skin/flesh

Well I gotta tell you.. if this is divinely inspired it seems that whatever deity did the “inspiring” needs to go back to community college and take remedial Histology courses cause that’s not how a fetus actually develops (in any verterbrate species)

The genesis of the brain and chordata (spinal column) occur concurrently in vertebrate development! The brain obviously isn’t bone.. and it obviously isn’t “a flesh covering”.. yet the Quran doesn’t account for this ! Bones are not made first and then a flesh covering is made.. it simply doesn’t occur that way. Flesh is actually made “first” and bone is subsequently developed and lags behind.

But I know.. none of what im saying is gonna matter and ur prolly gonna say.. “well even if the Quran is incorrect on the intricacies, that doesn’t matter.. the Quran is divinely inspired and ppl back then just didn’t have the tools or means to know even a hint of this type of stuff…”

sista,

its actually very easy and simple
as long as one has a rational argument that can be verified and substantiated by positive evidence (not a lack of evidence) , then u dont have to worry about being subjective.

i still havent addressed your post above

but in a nutshell, your claims are of the type

"I dont know the answer to _______, thus there is a possibility of it being due to ________" ... thats irrational (its called an argument from ignorance)

another form of this type of reasoning is:

" ______ seems inexplicable, thus it has to be a result of _______"



you cant base your stance and argument on a lack of evidence.

just because u dont understand how muhammed knew stuff back then, how does that translate to "allah taught him"

[sweet sista]

How can an illiterate man doesn’t know how to read and to write, know things of this nature?

Science was the last thing on his people’s mind at the time.

Even if I assumed that they were interested in science, It would have been such basic things not things that could’ve been known only these days.

That’s how it’s translated to “Allah taught him”

plus,
check the Koran for more info

[Visionz]

I believe in God but don't doubt the wisdom of the ancients. We're still not sure how they managed to build the pyramids in Egypt.

[Jaemillz]

Originally Posted by sweet sista

How can an illiterate man doesn’t know how to read and to write, know things of this nature?

Science was the last thing on his people’s mind at the time.

Even if I assumed that they were interested in science, It would have been such basic things not things that could’ve been known only these days.

That’s how it’s translated to “Allah taught him”

plus,
check the Koran for more info

no

thats how its translates into

"you dont know how they knew it"

[sweet sista]

Originally Posted by Jaemillz

no

thats how its translates into

"you dont know how they knew it"

my goodness!!
okay why don't YOU tell me how they knew it?!

[sweet sista]

Originally Posted by Eric Unseen

I believe in God but don't doubt the wisdom of the ancients. We're still not sure how they managed to build the pyramids in Egypt.

i don't doubt the wisdom of the ancients at all. as a matter of fact, i believe that every civilization was good at something. however,they were great in kinda specific major. No one can be good at everything!

[Jaemillz]

Originally Posted by sweet sista

my goodness!!
okay why don't YOU tell me how they knew it?!

u still dont understand logic do ya?

the issue isnt about me proving or answering how they knew it !

the issue is whether u or anyone else can PROVE that it was ALLAH who inspired them!

how old are u?

[Aqueous Moon]

^ lmao...I have been wondering about her age, also.

Just because it seems like she is real young.

[RAT NIPPLED REBEL]

i had fun with her in the past.. then i gave up

[nightwolf]

who shot JFK, ive been wondering that for yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeears

[num2son]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...q=loose+change

Do u believe is this?

[nightwolf]

has nothing to do with JFK

[TUCO]

doesnt???? u sure???