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Old 06-28-2006, 09:31 AM   #286
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^^Keep it cordial.

I think Timbs is just saying, that no one has collected the scientific data to prove that there is a Divine Intelligence that created are existence.

And truth be told, if there is a Divine Intelligence wise enough to create this world, mathematics, human being with rational thought, space, and matter----then That Divine Intelligence would be wise enough to hide his presense from the very creations he created.
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Old 06-28-2006, 09:33 AM   #287
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Eric, I've Been Saying That About My First Timbs.
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Old 06-28-2006, 10:42 AM   #288
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How can someone call themselves a "Rational Thinker" and in turn say that the human brain can only "perceive"

This guy is basically saying that empirical knowledge does not exist, and our brains only operate on a normative level.
We see something and classsify it as quickly and as simply as possible.

Timbs does not believe in God, nor does he believe in science because our brains are only capable of making feeble attempts at true knowledge.

This thread is a bunch of tricknowledgy
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Old 06-28-2006, 04:53 PM   #289
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Quote:
This guy is basically saying that empirical knowledge does not exist, and our brains only operate on a normative level.
We see something and classsify it as quickly and as simply as possible


i knew that my post on raw human reasoning and its fallibility would be misunderstood...

in a nutshell,

reason, rational thought and logic can be trusted simply because they provide a framework for verifiability and reproducibility.

even if the means in which we operate will always have a % error, this in no way means that rational thought, logic and "reason" are on par with religious claims and unverifiable assertions.

its actually quite simple

one form/mode of analyzing the world we live in is based upon a framework that allows others to (objectively) authenticate, and verify if something produces like results.

the other form of "reasoning" is not based upon such a framework and thus allows any and everything to potentially be considered without having to provide a basis for the allotment of merit.

all that rational thought requires is a method of providing assurance that a claim is most likely true, verifiable and falsifiable and that it can be experienced by another objective party.
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Old 06-28-2006, 05:00 PM   #290
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Quote:
And truth be told, if there is a Divine Intelligence wise enough to create this world, mathematics, human being with rational thought, space, and matter----then That Divine Intelligence would be wise enough to hide his presense from the very creations he created.
peace charging soldier.

this is of course very true indeed.. but then this would still give no credence to a belief in this being

the rational thinker openly admits that there actually could indeed be a god who designed this whole bowl of wax that we operate in.....but justs designed it in such a way so that hiss/her presence is hidden

however, there is no way to verify that without having an irrational belief that has no merit (even if ultimately it may be true!)

but sadly,,, i could make any old claim about something being in existence and then hide behind a shield that the existence of this force is hidden...and accomplish the same thing as any claim of a deistic hidden god

for ex... "there is an invisible boogieman who magically deposited a large sum of money in my bank account today.. but based on the attributes of this boogieman.. his existence cannot be tested for or verified....."

if i made a claim like that.. it would be totally irrational and meritless (even if it was indeed true!!!)

without a framework in place to add credence to this claim, its irrational to believe that it is true.

rational thought an dlogic provide a framework and mechanism for ensuring that conclusions reached and assertions made are verifiable
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Old 06-28-2006, 05:11 PM   #291
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But you said there is no way to verify a triangle is a triangle
It is only so because we humans said so

I'm past the God stuff (I never mentioned religion)

Your argument earlier was that humans "make" reality
If perception = reality then there is no such thing as science, and in turn no such thing as rationality
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Old 06-28-2006, 05:26 PM   #292
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peace june

i never stated that humans have no way to verify that a triangle is a "triangle"

humans will have no hard time at all verifiying that a triangle is a triangle because it is our logic that created the concept of the laws that a triangle adheres to.

the fundamental point i was making a few posts back in regard to this issue was that u cant use the alleged properties of a traingle (or circle or any other geo shape) as an argument for design by an unseen force...

(i know the god thing isnt ur argument) but i was offering a commentary on that claim
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Old 06-28-2006, 05:34 PM   #293
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I am not feeling you on the notion of a "man made concept."

It was a triangle before we classified.
Do you agree that everything has a beginning?
How would you fundamentally, scientifically, universally, and rationally explain how Zero becomes One?

Example from my earlier post:
A baby screams because it does not have the knowledge of language to say "I am hungry"
But the phrase 'I am hungry" does not created the sensation of an empty stomach
Human understanding does not equal creation or the making of something

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Old 06-28-2007, 01:42 PM   #294
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God does exist, just look around you.....

Geometry is not the proof, the universe is the proof.

all the complexities of the universe/life,etc...just "coincedentally happened" after "the big bang"???? i dont buy that for a min.

Even if your belief is the big bang theory/science/etc, who do you think "set off the bang"????

People like to flatter themselves with big talk/big words/100 page theories about it all, but it aint that complex......


the beauty of it is how simple it is......


God exists.......just not in the way man tries to define Him..



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Old 06-28-2007, 05:54 PM   #295
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this thread might be overdone already but i'll throw some javelins into this mofo...

i see so much of this "God doesn't exist" and "proving there is no God" shit alot now in the mainstream scientific community and alot of intellectuals proudly boasting of their atheism and looking down on those silly "spiritual" people...

i subscribe to a science magazine called SEED and they constantly have advertisements for these kinda books...one was by that dude Dawkins and another was called God: The Failed Hypothesis by i dont remember who..

also, one of my biggest personal influences and one of the greatest science persons of the 20th century, Carl Sagan, CONSTANTLY wrote against the whole idea of a "God" in his books and was known to be an atheist...

....
i've been gettin so tired of this shit...i LOVE science, i LOVE the whole rational, logical, left-brain way of thinking...it's gotten humanity very far and a very short time......but this mode of thinking and this idea of there being "no God" in this cold, dark, uncaring universe is really dangerous for us...and our kids..

i'll put it like my man Joseph Campbell (next to Sagan, my other huge personal influence) said:
"God is a metaphor. God is a metaphor for THAT WHICH TRANSCENDS ALL HUMAN THOUGHTS AND CONCEPTS. BEYOND THE DUALITY (EXISTENCE/NON-EXISTENCE, BEING/NON-BEING, LIFE/DEATH, GOOD/BAD, LIGHT/DARKNESS, MAN/WOMAN, ETC) THAT EXISTS WITHIN THE DIMENSION OF TIME AND SPACE."

the huge atheism in science movement seems to me like a reaction to the idea and image of an anthropomorphic God, like some really tall old white dude with a long white beard who watches over everything we do ("don't masturbate! i can see you!!") and punishes or rewards you according to that..


without a DOUBT, there is no such God...there is no physical heaven either...in the Gospels it says that Jesus ascended to heaven and the Catholic church teaches that he literally physically floated up in the sky and went to heaven and the same thing happened to Mary when she died........astronomy has shown us that even if they were moving at the speed of light, they still wouldn't have escaped the Milky Way galaxy by now....they're bodies would still be floating out there somewhere....

what i'm getting at is....YES, the ideas put forth nowadays by the Catholic church and pretty much the same with the other 2 Western religions is a total fantasy, worship of a illusion...i can sympathize with the intellegentsia wanting to respond at alot of the main philosophies of those right now...

but saying there is no God or spewing some BULLSHIT like "no one has proven the existence (that word again) of God" and all that stuff is just a waste of mental, intellectual energy yo...YOU are God, i'm God...we all are...it's in us...it is the ground of our being, of "life" and matter itself......we are conscious beings, actually manifestations of the consciousness of the universe itself, and thus "God".....put aside ur little logical and scientific method and look inside yourself..



to all y'all atheists and "no-God" preachers out there....use that energy a better way, direct it towards the preachers of a blind faith, worshipping some God in the sky that ain't there......study the Eastern religions (the TRUEST and OLDEST religions), read a Campbell book or watch a lecture, check out Fritjof Capra's Tao of Physics....

and open up ur mind, ur right-brain, ur intuitive senses and let's BUILD yo...

PEACE
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Old 06-28-2007, 08:35 PM   #296
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nice post Silencer, I was pretty heated the last time I posted in this thread, lol. Good see some intelligent commentary from those who don't suscribe to atheistic views points nor religous dogma. peace
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Old 06-29-2007, 06:22 AM   #297
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Everything in the universe, seen and unseen, testifies to the existence of God, the problem is too many people want to put forth shit-theories and concepts to justify the fact that they're either weak in faith, or have nothing better to do with themselves than go after attention, be it negative of positive.

Don't fret, we'll all know the truth when we're dead. I just can't wait to see the looks on the people's faces who think we're returning to some never-ending "void". lol Fuckin' maricons.
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Old 04-28-2010, 06:35 AM   #298
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Old 05-08-2010, 11:05 PM   #299
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One of the greatest mathematicians ever was asked about mathematics as proof of God. Here is the wiki:

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Leonhard Euler (15 April 1707 – 18 September 1783) was a pioneering Swiss mathematician and physicist who spent most of his life in Russia and Germany. His surname is pronounced /ˈɔɪlər/ OY-lər (like "Oiler") in English and [ˈɔʏlɐ] in German; the pronunciation /ˈjuːlər/ EW-lər is incorrect.[1][2][3][4]
Euler made important discoveries in fields as diverse as infinitesimal calculus and graph theory. He also introduced much of the modern mathematical terminology and notation, particularly for mathematical analysis, such as the notion of a mathematical function.[5] He is also renowned for his work in mechanics, fluid dynamics, optics, and astronomy.
Euler is considered to be the preeminent mathematician of the 18th century and arguably the greatest of all time. He is also one of the most prolific; his collected works fill 60–80 quarto volumes.[6] A statement attributed to Pierre-Simon Laplace expresses Euler's influence on mathematics: "Read Euler, read Euler, he is the master of us all."[7]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonhard_Euler
Leonhard Euler,a Swiss mathematician who at the time is generally recognized as the world's leading mathematician. In the episode related by zion, Euler, tired of the ennui proffered by the atheist,went to the board and wrote: "e^(i*pi)+1=0;therefore God exists" As pointed out,the object of his ridicule had no clue as to the meaning of the equation(and probably no one else did either),since it was an equation developed by Euler himself.The elements of the equation are most remarkable,since they relate several of the most fundamental constants in mathematics. e=the base for natural logarithms, an irrational number,which begins 2.71828......i=the square root of -1,the basic unit of complex numbers(numbers of the form:a+=bi,a,b real numbers. pi=the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter(3.14159.......,an irrational number. 1=the identity element for multiplication 0=the identity element for addition.

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Euler insisted that knowledge is founded in part on the basis of precise quantitative laws, something that monadism and Wolffian science were unable to provide. Euler's religious leanings might also have had a bearing on his dislike of the doctrine; he went so far as to label Wolff's ideas as "heathen and atheistic".[42] Much of what is known of Euler's religious beliefs can be deduced from his Letters to a German Princess and an earlier work, Rettung der Göttlichen Offenbahrung Gegen die Einwürfe der Freygeister (Defense of the Divine Revelation against the Objections of the Freethinkers). These works show that Euler was a devout Christian who believed the Bible to be inspired; the Rettung was primarily an argument for the divine inspiration of scripture.[8]
There is a famous anecdote inspired by Euler's arguments with secular philosophers over religion, which is set during Euler's second stint at the St. Petersburg academy. The French philosopher Denis Diderot was visiting Russia on Catherine the Great's invitation. However, the Empress was alarmed that the philosopher's arguments for atheism were influencing members of her court, and so Euler was asked to confront the Frenchman. Diderot was later informed that a learned mathematician had produced a proof of the existence of God: he agreed to view the proof as it was presented in court. Euler appeared, advanced toward Diderot, and in a tone of perfect conviction announced, "Sir, , hence God exists—reply!". Diderot, to whom (says the story) all mathematics was gibberish, stood dumbstruck as peals of laughter erupted from the court. Embarrassed, he asked to leave Russia, a request that was graciously granted by the Empress. However amusing the anecdote may be, it is apocryphal, given that Diderot was a capable mathematician who had published mathematical treatises.
Some will argue that 0+0=0 simply proves that the Universe has always existed in some state or form. Some argue that it disproves the Big Bang theory because something cannot come from nothing.

Now lets consider the concept of infinity. Here is a decent explanation citing the work of mathematician Kurt Gödel [1906-1978]

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The metamorphosis of motion from Infinity to the phenomenon of matter is an example of meta-mathematics known as Unimetry. A detailed description of Unimetry, which concerns Pulsoids, is beyond the scope of this presentation.

A very strong argument can be made that Infinity is the only mathematical provable because of the very fact that Infinity, as the only singularity and as a phenomenon that is beyond Reality, can not be disproved! http://physicsmathforums.com/showthread.php?t=150
Albert Einstein and Godel, both becoming friends, both believed in God. However Einstein considered God more-so the impersonal order of the universe whereas Godel believed in the afterlife and was a Christian. One of the best modern mathematicians still alive today, Stephen Hawkins, also believes in God. However, I believe he is probably closer to Einstein by believing God as a natural order to everything in the universe rather than an interactive part of our lives. The greatest minds in science and mathematics admit that the universe is far too complex for science and mathematics to explain.
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Old 05-08-2010, 11:18 PM   #300
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